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Posted: 8/27/2013 9:45:04 AM EDT
[#1]
Quote HistoryQuoted: I agree that is odd. It doesn't necessarily prove anything, but it does look a little suspicious.  Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: Quoted: . Of the FBI Agents assigned to the Ruby Ridge tragedy, Dale has been one of the most outspoken. He has delivered dozens of presentations to more than 1000 civilians titled "Mistakes and Lessons of Ruby Ridge”. Thank you. -Steve Troy I keep running iterations through Google and receiving nothing but links to your statement when I enter that title. Nowhere on the web is there any other reference to this presentation, its title, or Dale Monroe making any sort of presentation with that title. I weighed carefully the decision whether or not to retain Dale and could find no ethical or moral reason to remove him. Really? Because it appears, that from these 1000+ civilians, not a single one of them so much as made a peep about. No vendor posted an advertisement, or handbill, or banner announcing the presentation. No hidden camera videos, no snapshots, no, "OMG! look who this is as the speaker today!" Nothing but crickets on that presentation title that, supposedly, nullifies his past and validates his worth to this community. Maybe he made his presentation on the back of a napkin and it was simply, and innocently, omitted from his hiring packet? TRG I agree that is odd. It doesn't necessarily prove anything, but it does look a little suspicious. If I owned ARF I would cut ties with Troy so fast... And I would also clean ARFCOMS house while I was at it... |
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Posted: 8/27/2013 9:45:10 AM EDT
[#2]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Thats got to be the dumbest thing ever written on AR15.com, and thats saying a lot. When is, inside the United Sates, one of their unarmed citizens, a justified target for a Government sniper? What crime requiring justifiable homicide was she committing? Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: Troy fan. Like I said, I read the Wikipedia since the thread started, so I'm basically an expert now.  So you admittedly are willing to overlook the atrocities at RR and the fuck ups by those involved because your a fan of Troys products? Your moral compass is on par with the company you'd like to keep. Pathetic. 404 Atrocities Not Found. Taking up arms against an overwhelmingly superior force has a predictable outcome. Thats got to be the dumbest thing ever written on AR15.com, and thats saying a lot. When is, inside the United Sates, one of their unarmed citizens, a justified target for a Government sniper? What crime requiring justifiable homicide was she committing? |
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Posted: 8/27/2013 9:45:12 AM EDT
[#3]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Taking a shot at a man running away who, at that time, is presenting no threat to anyone, is murder if it's not in a war zone. Illegal ROEs or not, it's murder. True from our point of view. But we weren't there, we don't know the entire story, what they were told, what they thought they faced. Imagine being dropped into a situation like this where they tell you an agent was killed, they are armed with m16s and you have orders to shoot to kill. Cluster fuck doesn't even begin to touch it. There's a reason it's a dark day in our history, our government screwed the pooch and put not just the weavers live's in peril, but everyone involved. |
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Posted: 8/27/2013 9:46:33 AM EDT
[#4]
Quote HistoryQuoted: I agree that is odd. It doesn't necessarily prove anything, but it does look a little suspicious. Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: Quoted: . Of the FBI Agents assigned to the Ruby Ridge tragedy, Dale has been one of the most outspoken. He has delivered dozens of presentations to more than 1000 civilians titled "Mistakes and Lessons of Ruby Ridge”. Thank you. -Steve Troy I keep running iterations through Google and receiving nothing but links to your statement when I enter that title. Nowhere on the web is there any other reference to this presentation, its title, or Dale Monroe making any sort of presentation with that title. I weighed carefully the decision whether or not to retain Dale and could find no ethical or moral reason to remove him. Really? Because it appears, that from these 1000+ civilians, not a single one of them so much as made a peep about. No vendor posted an advertisement, or handbill, or banner announcing the presentation. No hidden camera videos, no snapshots, no, "OMG! look who this is as the speaker today!" Nothing but crickets on that presentation title that, supposedly, nullifies his past and validates his worth to this community. Maybe he made his presentation on the back of a napkin and it was simply, and innocently, omitted from his hiring packet? TRG I agree that is odd. It doesn't necessarily prove anything, but it does look a little suspicious. Cops are civilians... <sorry, I had too> |
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Posted: 8/27/2013 9:46:46 AM EDT
[#5]
I will not spend a dime of my money with a company that employs anyone that was involved in sendiing a high speed projectile through the skull of a woman holding a baby.
We have put soldiers in prison for doing less in actual wars. |
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Posted: 8/27/2013 9:47:21 AM EDT
[#6]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
He apologized for hiring the Chicago cop. Quote HistoryQuoted:
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Why hasn't Monroe spoken in this matter yet ? If he were another man today, and regretted things that happened 20years ago we could understand Troy s position better.. But he is as silent as Wicky... Why would he? He could apologize, Steve Troy could apologize, and give free BUIS to everyone with an AR-15 and this community still wouldn't forgive him. Just look at what he's gotten for the concessions he's made so far: more enemies and more scorn. As if either of them owe you anything. Please tell us the concessions Troy has made. He apologized for hiring the Chicago cop. 1. That is hardly a "concession". Do you need a dictionary? 2. You stated "concessionS". Plural. 3. He never gained any enemies or scorn apologizing for Jody. The outrage has been over Monroe. You know these things. |
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Posted: 8/27/2013 9:47:30 AM EDT
[#7]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Good thing nobody felt that way when the '94-'04 AWB expired and (standard) hi-cap mags were available at reasonable prices again. PS Using money paid (and value gained) as a result of an Unconstitutional restriction as a reason for upholding said restrictions is the excuse of a scumbag. I have continued to observe the things you've said through several pages, trying to find a shred of reason for your perspective...or an interest in freedom and liberty FOR ALL...but after your statement here, I don't think I'm going to ever see one. *click* Quote HistoryQuoted:
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You're such an amiable fellow. Is everyone from Idaho like this? I think I know a thing or two about rule of law and due process. I used to have to meet with the saranwal once a week to try to get him to actually charge people that were arrested. A country without the rule of law is chaos. I think you feel like the FBI transgressed against the rule of law, whereas I feel like the Weavers did. I do feel like I'm failing to convey how very, very little I care about the whole situation though. IIRC an FBI agent shot and killed Ibragim Todashev in his own apartment, as soon as the local cops left him alone with him. And you don't see people here up in arms about that... Not that I'm saying they should, but if you're going to get pissy about the FBI schwacking people, you could pick something more current...Let's just get down to brass tacks, shall we? Do you think the NFA is constitutional and/or good law? I don't think it's constitutional due to the closure of the machine gun registry. When you pass an excise tax on the trade\commerce of some item as part of the tax code, and then refuse to accept the tax, you've likely exceeded the authority outlined in the constitution by creating a de facto ban. IIRC Rock River Arms won a federal district court case on that argument and the US Attorney chose not to appeal. It was based on a full auto 1911. I'm not a lawyer or anything though. I tend to have a broader view of the scope of government authority beyond strictly what's spelled out in the constitution. Is it a good law? Probably overall, no. But personally the investment value in the 2 machine guns that I have far outweigh any utility I might gain from actually owning\shooting new machineguns if the NFA were to magically disappear. You have to figure there are plenty of people with hundreds of thousands of dollars tied up in guns that would be made nearly worthless overnight. Good thing nobody felt that way when the '94-'04 AWB expired and (standard) hi-cap mags were available at reasonable prices again. PS Using money paid (and value gained) as a result of an Unconstitutional restriction as a reason for upholding said restrictions is the excuse of a scumbag. I have continued to observe the things you've said through several pages, trying to find a shred of reason for your perspective...or an interest in freedom and liberty FOR ALL...but after your statement here, I don't think I'm going to ever see one. *click* Very interesting that Jeff4187 compares the Boston bomber suspects with Vicki Weaver, then goes on to say that he "feels" the Weaver's were the criminals, and then that his main concern over NFA is his personal financial investment in NFA items, even though he recognizes the unconstitutionality of 1934 and 1986 NFA. One thing about these debates is that you get an insight into how other citizens really think about our inalienable rights, let alone businesses that simply make you wonder if a urinalysis is in order. |
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Posted: 8/27/2013 9:48:34 AM EDT
[#8]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Very interesting that Jeff4187 compares the Boston bomber suspects with Vicki Weaver, then goes on to say that he "feels" the Weaver's were the criminals, and then that his main concern over NFA is his personal financial investment in NFA items, even though he recognizes the unconstitutionality of 1934 and 1986 NFA. One thing about these debates is that you get an insight into how other citizens really think about our inalienable rights, let alone businesses that simply make you wonder if a urinalysis is in order. Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: You're such an amiable fellow. Is everyone from Idaho like this? I think I know a thing or two about rule of law and due process. I used to have to meet with the saranwal once a week to try to get him to actually charge people that were arrested. A country without the rule of law is chaos. I think you feel like the FBI transgressed against the rule of law, whereas I feel like the Weavers did. I do feel like I'm failing to convey how very, very little I care about the whole situation though. IIRC an FBI agent shot and killed Ibragim Todashev in his own apartment, as soon as the local cops left him alone with him. And you don't see people here up in arms about that... Not that I'm saying they should, but if you're going to get pissy about the FBI schwacking people, you could pick something more current...Let's just get down to brass tacks, shall we? Do you think the NFA is constitutional and/or good law? I don't think it's constitutional due to the closure of the machine gun registry. When you pass an excise tax on the trade\commerce of some item as part of the tax code, and then refuse to accept the tax, you've likely exceeded the authority outlined in the constitution by creating a de facto ban. IIRC Rock River Arms won a federal district court case on that argument and the US Attorney chose not to appeal. It was based on a full auto 1911. I'm not a lawyer or anything though. I tend to have a broader view of the scope of government authority beyond strictly what's spelled out in the constitution. Is it a good law? Probably overall, no. But personally the investment value in the 2 machine guns that I have far outweigh any utility I might gain from actually owning\shooting new machineguns if the NFA were to magically disappear. You have to figure there are plenty of people with hundreds of thousands of dollars tied up in guns that would be made nearly worthless overnight. Good thing nobody felt that way when the '94-'04 AWB expired and (standard) hi-cap mags were available at reasonable prices again. PS Using money paid (and value gained) as a result of an Unconstitutional restriction as a reason for upholding said restrictions is the excuse of a scumbag. I have continued to observe the things you've said through several pages, trying to find a shred of reason for your perspective...or an interest in freedom and liberty FOR ALL...but after your statement here, I don't think I'm going to ever see one. *click* Very interesting that Jeff4187 compares the Boston bomber suspects with Vicki Weaver, then goes on to say that he "feels" the Weaver's were the criminals, and then that his main concern over NFA is his personal financial investment in NFA items, even though he recognizes the unconstitutionality of 1934 and 1986 NFA. One thing about these debates is that you get an insight into how other citizens really think about our inalienable rights, let alone businesses that simply make you wonder if a urinalysis is in order. |
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Posted: 8/27/2013 9:49:35 AM EDT
[#9]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
He apologized for hiring the Chicago cop. Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
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Why hasn't Monroe spoken in this matter yet ? If he were another man today, and regretted things that happened 20years ago we could understand Troy s position better.. But he is as silent as Wicky... Why would he? He could apologize, Steve Troy could apologize, and give free BUIS to everyone with an AR-15 and this community still wouldn't forgive him. Just look at what he's gotten for the concessions he's made so far: more enemies and more scorn. As if either of them owe you anything. Please tell us the concessions Troy has made. He apologized for hiring the Chicago cop. That's a concession? That's throwing a cookie in the garbage after your mother caught you with your hand in the jar. |
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Posted: 8/27/2013 9:50:13 AM EDT
[#10]
Quote HistoryQuoted: True from our point of view. But we weren't there, we don't know the entire story, what they were told, what they thought they faced. Imagine being dropped into a situation like this where they tell you an agent was killed, they are armed with m16s and you have orders to shoot to kill. Cluster fuck doesn't even begin to touch it. There's a reason it's a dark day in our history, our government screwed the pooch and put not just the weavers live's in peril, but everyone involved. Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: Taking a shot at a man running away who, at that time, is presenting no threat to anyone, is murder if it's not in a war zone. Illegal ROEs or not, it's murder. True from our point of view. But we weren't there, we don't know the entire story, what they were told, what they thought they faced. Imagine being dropped into a situation like this where they tell you an agent was killed, they are armed with m16s and you have orders to shoot to kill. Cluster fuck doesn't even begin to touch it. There's a reason it's a dark day in our history, our government screwed the pooch and put not just the weavers live's in peril, but everyone involved. So now, what have we learned? If someone is on record as being anti 2A you and Troy have no use for them but if you are one of the most notorious JBT in American History it's all good?? How do you reconcile that? |
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Posted: 8/27/2013 9:50:27 AM EDT
[#11]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
True from our point of view. But we weren't there, we don't know the entire story, what they were told, what they thought they faced. Imagine being dropped into a situation like this where they tell you an agent was killed, they are armed with m16s and you have orders to shoot to kill. Cluster fuck doesn't even begin to touch it. There's a reason it's a dark day in our history, our government screwed the pooch and put not just the weavers live's in peril, but everyone involved. Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
Taking a shot at a man running away who, at that time, is presenting no threat to anyone, is murder if it's not in a war zone. Illegal ROEs or not, it's murder. True from our point of view. But we weren't there, we don't know the entire story, what they were told, what they thought they faced. Imagine being dropped into a situation like this where they tell you an agent was killed, they are armed with m16s and you have orders to shoot to kill. Cluster fuck doesn't even begin to touch it. There's a reason it's a dark day in our history, our government screwed the pooch and put not just the weavers live's in peril, but everyone involved. But there were others in that same place, same situation, and they chose not to participate in the illegal ROE. Dale and his compadres chose to go full steam ahead. |
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Posted: 8/27/2013 9:51:17 AM EDT
[#12]
Quote HistoryQuoted: 404 Atrocities Not Found. Taking up arms against an overwhelmingly superior force has a predictable outcome. Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: Troy fan. Like I said, I read the Wikipedia since the thread started, so I'm basically an expert now. 404 Atrocities Not Found. Taking up arms against an overwhelmingly superior force has a predictable outcome. Click; |
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Posted: 8/27/2013 9:51:22 AM EDT
[#13]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
True from our point of view. But we weren't there, we don't know the entire story, what they were told, what they thought they faced. Imagine being dropped into a situation like this where they tell you an agent was killed, they are armed with m16s and you have orders to shoot to kill. Cluster fuck doesn't even begin to touch it. There's a reason it's a dark day in our history, our government screwed the pooch and put not just the weavers live's in peril, but everyone involved. Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
Taking a shot at a man running away who, at that time, is presenting no threat to anyone, is murder if it's not in a war zone. Illegal ROEs or not, it's murder. True from our point of view. But we weren't there, we don't know the entire story, what they were told, what they thought they faced. Imagine being dropped into a situation like this where they tell you an agent was killed, they are armed with m16s and you have orders to shoot to kill. Cluster fuck doesn't even begin to touch it. There's a reason it's a dark day in our history, our government screwed the pooch and put not just the weavers live's in peril, but everyone involved. Orders to "shoot to kill" should never be even considered by an leo. |
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Posted: 8/27/2013 9:51:25 AM EDT
[#14]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Very interesting that Jeff4187 compares the Boston bomber suspects with Vicki Weaver, then goes on to say that he "feels" the Weaver's were the criminals, and then that his main concern over NFA is his personal financial investment in NFA items, even though he recognizes the unconstitutionality of 1934 and 1986 NFA. One thing about these debates is that you get an insight into how other citizens really think about our inalienable rights, let alone businesses that simply make you wonder if a urinalysis is in order. Jeez. I just went back and saw that. Unbelievable. I have a machine gun, too. I'd gladly see it become worthless(well, reduced to what it's really worth) to see the NFA/'86 ban ruled unconstitutional. |
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Posted: 8/27/2013 9:51:38 AM EDT
[#15]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Shitty argument. She wasn't the target. It was a bad shoot and the shot should not have been taken, but trying to suggest she was the intended victim is horseshit. Quote HistoryQuoted:
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Troy fan. Like I said, I read the Wikipedia since the thread started, so I'm basically an expert now. So you admittedly are willing to overlook the atrocities at RR and the fuck ups by those involved because your a fan of Troys products? Your moral compass is on par with the company you'd like to keep. Pathetic. 404 Atrocities Not Found. Taking up arms against an overwhelmingly superior force has a predictable outcome. Thats got to be the dumbest thing ever written on AR15.com, and thats saying a lot. When is, inside the United Sates, one of their unarmed citizens, a justified target for a Government sniper? What crime requiring justifiable homicide was she committing? Really, a sub MOA shooter and sub MOA gun shot the wrong person? That must take some incredible mental agility to believe. He must have really sucked if its true. |
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Posted: 8/27/2013 9:51:41 AM EDT
[#16]
Never forget our real problem is a government intent on disarming the public despite what our founding fathers wanted for this country's citizens.
While our vote may carry some weight, where we spend our money carries a lot more. I hope companies who have their businesses founded on our 2A rights take note of this situation and act accordingly from now on. |
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Posted: 8/27/2013 9:52:42 AM EDT
[#17]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Somehow I think trying the get a message to Troy through this thread is like using two cans and a string. Hopefully, sales numbers send one that is crystal clear. This! If you work for Troy, start considering other opportunities. |
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Posted: 8/27/2013 9:52:48 AM EDT
[#18]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Why would he? He could apologize, Steve Troy could apologize, and give free BUIS to everyone with an AR-15 and this community still wouldn't forgive him. Just look at what he's gotten for the concessions he's made so far: more enemies and more scorn. As if either of them owe you anything. Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
Why hasn't Monroe spoken in this matter yet ? If he were another man today, and regretted things that happened 20years ago we could understand Troy s position better.. But he is as silent as Wicky... Why would he? He could apologize, Steve Troy could apologize, and give free BUIS to everyone with an AR-15 and this community still wouldn't forgive him. Just look at what he's gotten for the concessions he's made so far: more enemies and more scorn. As if either of them owe you anything. If he did speak, maybe we could have understood Steve troy positition, and forgiven. I would. I own may Troy sights, but I won't purchase any more of them, as for now |
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Posted: 8/27/2013 9:52:48 AM EDT
[#19]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Orders to "shoot to kill" should never be even considered by an leo. Quote HistoryQuoted:
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Taking a shot at a man running away who, at that time, is presenting no threat to anyone, is murder if it's not in a war zone. Illegal ROEs or not, it's murder. True from our point of view. But we weren't there, we don't know the entire story, what they were told, what they thought they faced. Imagine being dropped into a situation like this where they tell you an agent was killed, they are armed with m16s and you have orders to shoot to kill. Cluster fuck doesn't even begin to touch it. There's a reason it's a dark day in our history, our government screwed the pooch and put not just the weavers live's in peril, but everyone involved. Orders to "shoot to kill" should never be even considered by an leo. Yep. The phrase alone should make anyione wearing a badge go "WTF?!?" |
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Posted: 8/27/2013 9:53:02 AM EDT
[#20]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Thank you for making up my mind. NO MORE TROY PRODUCTS FOR ME. EVER. Yup. I wasn't a big customer, but I sent some money their way. Never again. |
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Posted: 8/27/2013 9:53:24 AM EDT
[#21]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Right and your buddies buddy was smack dab in the middle of it all and when the shit hit the fan after, your buddies buddy went on record he felt they were justified. So now, what have we learned? If you're on record as being anti 2A you and Troy have no use for you but if you are one of the most notorious JBT in American History it's all good?? How do you reconcile that? Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
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Taking a shot at a man running away who, at that time, is presenting no threat to anyone, is murder if it's not in a war zone. Illegal ROEs or not, it's murder. True from our point of view. But we weren't there, we don't know the entire story, what they were told, what they thought they faced. Imagine being dropped into a situation like this where they tell you an agent was killed, they are armed with m16s and you have orders to shoot to kill. Cluster fuck doesn't even begin to touch it. There's a reason it's a dark day in our history, our government screwed the pooch and put not just the weavers live's in peril, but everyone involved. So now, what have we learned? If you're on record as being anti 2A you and Troy have no use for you but if you are one of the most notorious JBT in American History it's all good?? How do you reconcile that? Moreover, how do you reconcile that with the other snipers and response teams there who also thought the ROE were out of line? I'm not saying in any way that GB is any 2A. I am asking how one can believe shoot-to-kill ROE in domestic LE can be even remotely a valid point on which to base an argument. |
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Posted: 8/27/2013 9:53:33 AM EDT
[#22]
Quote HistoryQuoted: We as gun owners companies are some of our own worse enemies. Accuracy. |
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Posted: 8/27/2013 9:53:56 AM EDT
[#23]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
404 Atrocities Not Found. Taking up arms against an overwhelmingly superior force has a predictable outcome. Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
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Troy fan. Like I said, I read the Wikipedia since the thread started, so I'm basically an expert now. So you admittedly are willing to overlook the atrocities at RR and the fuck ups by those involved because your a fan of Troys products? Your moral compass is on par with the company you'd like to keep. Pathetic. 404 Atrocities Not Found. Taking up arms against an overwhelmingly superior force has a predictable outcome. You are either fucking uninformed, or a troll... |
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Posted: 8/27/2013 9:54:27 AM EDT
[#24]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Accuracy. Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: We as gun owners companies are some of our own worse enemies. Accuracy. Well they had a good run. |
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Posted: 8/27/2013 9:55:25 AM EDT
[#25]
I just found this thread from the "Unofficial Troy lost sales thread." I don't have time to read through all the pages to figure out what's going on. Are there Cliff Notes somewhere?
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Posted: 8/27/2013 9:56:07 AM EDT
[#26]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Really, a sub MOA shooter and sub MOA gun shot the wrong person? That must take some incredible mental agility to believe. He must have really sucked if its true. I don't have a problem saying I think Horiuchi specifically targeted Vicki. She was a static target. He knew the emotional toll her death would take on his enemy. he knew he could claim he was shooting at Randy. It's no coincidence that the psychological warfare via loudspeakers used her name. |
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Posted: 8/27/2013 9:57:57 AM EDT
[#27]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
I don't have a problem saying I think Horiuchi specifically targeted Vicki. She was a static target. He knew the emotional toll her death would take on his enemy. he knew he could claim he was shooting at Randy. It's no coincidence that the psychological warfare via loudspeakers used her name. Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
Really, a sub MOA shooter and sub MOA gun shot the wrong person? That must take some incredible mental agility to believe. He must have really sucked if its true. I don't have a problem saying I think Horiuchi specifically targeted Vicki. She was a static target. He knew the emotional toll her death would take on his enemy. he knew he could claim he was shooting at Randy. It's no coincidence that the psychological warfare via loudspeakers used her name. This. Nothing will ever convince me that he didn't kill her on purpose. |
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Posted: 8/27/2013 9:58:02 AM EDT
[#28]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
So now, what have we learned? If someone is on record as being anti 2A you and Troy have no use for them but if you are one of the most notorious JBT in American History it's all good?? How do you reconcile that? That's painting it with a wide brush. As I've said, I see your side of it, no issues there and I respect it completely. I'm not defending Monroe or his part in this. |
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Posted: 8/27/2013 9:58:28 AM EDT
[#29]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Must be nice having no principles and morals Quote HistoryQuoted:
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No shit  Thanks for the response Troy. I think when you boil it all down in GD, there may be 150 to 200 folks in here that won't buy your products because of this, me not being one of them. Hire whoever the hell you want and keep making great products. *ETA*They will sell. It's funny how GD spouts fire and brimstone when it comes to capatalism and a companies right to make money off their ingenuity but god forbid that same company steps over the imaginary lines in their heads
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If arfcom bandwagon boycotts actually worked, there wouldn't be a single gun/gun accessory manufacturer/dealer left in business. Must be nice having no principles and morals Must be nice being you and being able to deduce a persons morality from a paragraph posted on a gun forum. |
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Posted: 8/27/2013 9:58:36 AM EDT
[#30]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
I just found this thread from the "Unofficial Troy lost sales thread." I don't have time to read through all the pages to figure out what's going on. Are there Cliff Notes somewhere? Troy supports the killing of innocent civilians. Especially mothers holding babies. That's the long and short of it. 
Fuck Troy Industries. 
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Posted: 8/27/2013 9:59:49 AM EDT
[#31]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
This. Nothing will ever convince me that he didn't kill her on purpose. Quote HistoryQuoted:
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Really, a sub MOA shooter and sub MOA gun shot the wrong person? That must take some incredible mental agility to believe. He must have really sucked if its true. I don't have a problem saying I think Horiuchi specifically targeted Vicki. She was a static target. He knew the emotional toll her death would take on his enemy. he knew he could claim he was shooting at Randy. It's no coincidence that the psychological warfare via loudspeakers used her name. This. Nothing will ever convince me that he didn't kill her on purpose. Same here. Fuck that piece of trash. |
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Posted: 8/27/2013 9:59:52 AM EDT
[#32]
TRG said "Because it appears, that from these 1000+ civilians, not a single one of them so much as made a peep about. No vendor posted an advertisement, or handbill, or banner announcing the presentation.
No hidden camera videos, no snapshots, no, "OMG! look who this is as the speaker today!" Nothing but crickets on that presentation title that, supposedly, nullifies his past and validates his worth to this community. Maybe he made his presentation on the back of a napkin and it was simply, and innocently, omitted from his hiring packet? " I'm sure Troy's explanation when their hand is forced will be something like this: "While at an NFL game,Monroe stood up at his seat and gave a 30 second presentation on RR.There were 60 thousand people at this presentation." |
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Posted: 8/27/2013 10:00:35 AM EDT
[#33]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
and you have orders to shoot to kill. Quote HistoryQuoted:
and you have orders to shoot to kill. ...then you remember that you are, in fact, a law enforcement agent sworn to uphold the constitution and as such are required by law and by oath to exercise independent judgment of the circumstances surrounding a use of lethal force. Under some circumstances members of the military may be able to use lethal force on sight, although in today's environment even that is less and less applicable. If I'm a cop, I can't be ordered to kill anyone. I can be ordered not to use force by a command element even if I can articulate the circumstances that justify the use of lethal force at the moment I'm looking through the scope, but I cannot be given a shoot to kill order and act on it blamelessly. Should the person who gave that order be locked up? Absolutely. But if I'm on the trigger the responsibility for the use of force is on my shoulders. I fire the bullet. I own what it hits. In some very dire circumstances I might hit the wrong person and be blameless for doing so...but those circumstances don't appear to have existed at the time the shooting started. Cluster fuck doesn't even begin to touch it. There's a reason it's a dark day in our history, our government screwed the pooch and put not just the weavers live's in peril, but everyone involved. Indeed. It was a multi-faceted goat rodeo...but then these sort of disasters usually do have plenty of blame to go around in them. The problem, at least as I see it, is primarily that the people responsible for the fucked up outcome in this goat rodeo all seem to insist they did everything right. I understand why they would think that way because it's a natural human response...but it's inadequate. |
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Posted: 8/27/2013 10:01:50 AM EDT
[#34]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Really, a sub MOA shooter and sub MOA gun shot the wrong person? That must take some incredible mental agility to believe. He must have really sucked if its true. Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: Shitty argument. She wasn't the target. It was a bad shoot and the shot should not have been taken, but trying to suggest she was the intended victim is horseshit. Really, a sub MOA shooter and sub MOA gun shot the wrong person? That must take some incredible mental agility to believe. He must have really sucked if its true. Did you miss the part about her being behind a door? |
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Posted: 8/27/2013 10:02:34 AM EDT
[#35]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
True from our point of view. But we weren't there, we don't know the entire story, what they were told, what they thought they faced. Imagine being dropped into a situation like this where they tell you an agent was killed, they are armed with m16s and you have orders to shoot to kill. Cluster fuck doesn't even begin to touch it. There's a reason it's a dark day in our history, our government screwed the pooch and put not just the weavers live's in peril, but everyone involved. Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
Taking a shot at a man running away who, at that time, is presenting no threat to anyone, is murder if it's not in a war zone. Illegal ROEs or not, it's murder. True from our point of view. But we weren't there, we don't know the entire story, what they were told, what they thought they faced. Imagine being dropped into a situation like this where they tell you an agent was killed, they are armed with m16s and you have orders to shoot to kill. Cluster fuck doesn't even begin to touch it. There's a reason it's a dark day in our history, our government screwed the pooch and put not just the weavers live's in peril, but everyone involved. Government did not pull that trigger. Unethical men pulled those triggers. Monroe's clear position is that not morality, presence of children, ethics, or the law stopped him from making the shot, only reaction time on the trigger. Not once has he been shown to back away from that. Even his statement about not shooting in the presence of women and children is in direct opposition to his own admission about his willingness (I'de say eagerness, too) to take that shot. Remove the gun from the logic. Atty: "Your partner ate ice cream that day. Why did you not eat ice cream that day? Monroe: "He ate all the ice cream before I could a bite." Atty: "If given the chance, would you eat ice cream in the future." Monroe: "I don't eat ice cream." That is the nonsensical response that is being used to attempt to cast Monroe as an innocent patsy of 'government' malfeasance. TRG TRG |
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Posted: 8/27/2013 10:03:16 AM EDT
[#36]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
True from our point of view. But we weren't there, we don't know the entire story, what they were told, what they thought they faced. Imagine being dropped into a situation like this where they tell you an agent was killed, they are armed with m16s and you have orders to shoot to kill. Cluster fuck doesn't even begin to touch it. There's a reason it's a dark day in our history, our government screwed the pooch and put not just the weavers live's in peril, but everyone involved. Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
Taking a shot at a man running away who, at that time, is presenting no threat to anyone, is murder if it's not in a war zone. Illegal ROEs or not, it's murder. True from our point of view. But we weren't there, we don't know the entire story, what they were told, what they thought they faced. Imagine being dropped into a situation like this where they tell you an agent was killed, they are armed with m16s and you have orders to shoot to kill. Cluster fuck doesn't even begin to touch it. There's a reason it's a dark day in our history, our government screwed the pooch and put not just the weavers live's in peril, but everyone involved. I couldn't even do that in Afghanistan after he had fired at me. Once he dropped the weapon ROE prevented me from taking action. |
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Posted: 8/27/2013 10:03:25 AM EDT
[#37]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Did you miss the part about her being behind a door? Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
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Shitty argument. She wasn't the target. It was a bad shoot and the shot should not have been taken, but trying to suggest she was the intended victim is horseshit. Really, a sub MOA shooter and sub MOA gun shot the wrong person? That must take some incredible mental agility to believe. He must have really sucked if its true. Did you miss the part about her being behind a door? A door with a window, and the curtains tied back... |
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Posted: 8/27/2013 10:03:25 AM EDT
[#38]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Yep. The phrase alone should make anyione wearing a badge go "WTF?!?" Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: Taking a shot at a man running away who, at that time, is presenting no threat to anyone, is murder if it's not in a war zone. Illegal ROEs or not, it's murder. True from our point of view. But we weren't there, we don't know the entire story, what they were told, what they thought they faced. Imagine being dropped into a situation like this where they tell you an agent was killed, they are armed with m16s and you have orders to shoot to kill. Cluster fuck doesn't even begin to touch it. There's a reason it's a dark day in our history, our government screwed the pooch and put not just the weavers live's in peril, but everyone involved. Orders to "shoot to kill" should never be even considered by an leo. Yep. The phrase alone should make anyione wearing a badge go "WTF?!?" Is that the actual words used? Everything I've seen says lethal force authorized. Still can't believe they authorized lethal force on individuals simply standing around armed. Crazy. |
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Posted: 8/27/2013 10:03:49 AM EDT
[#39]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
404 Atrocities Not Found. Taking up arms against an overwhelmingly superior force has a predictable outcome. Quote HistoryQuoted:
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Troy fan. Like I said, I read the Wikipedia since the thread started, so I'm basically an expert now. So you admittedly are willing to overlook the atrocities at RR and the fuck ups by those involved because your a fan of Troys products? Your moral compass is on par with the company you'd like to keep. Pathetic. 404 Atrocities Not Found. Taking up arms against an overwhelmingly superior force has a predictable outcome. *Click* |
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Posted: 8/27/2013 10:04:31 AM EDT
[#40]
Quote HistoryQuoted: I don't have a problem saying I think Horiuchi specifically targeted Vicki. She was a static target. He knew the emotional toll her death would take on his enemy. he knew he could claim he was shooting at Randy. It's no coincidence that the psychological warfare via loudspeakers used her name. Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: Really, a sub MOA shooter and sub MOA gun shot the wrong person? That must take some incredible mental agility to believe. He must have really sucked if its true. I don't have a problem saying I think Horiuchi specifically targeted Vicki. She was a static target. He knew the emotional toll her death would take on his enemy. he knew he could claim he was shooting at Randy. It's no coincidence that the psychological warfare via loudspeakers used her name. |
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Posted: 8/27/2013 10:05:56 AM EDT
[#41]
Quote HistoryQuoted: That's painting it with a wide brush. As I've said, I see your side of it, no issues there and I respect it completely. I'm not defending Monroe or his part in this. Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: So now, what have we learned? If someone is on record as being anti 2A you and Troy have no use for them but if you are one of the most notorious JBT in American History it's all good?? How do you reconcile that? That's painting it with a wide brush. As I've said, I see your side of it, no issues there and I respect it completely. I'm not defending Monroe or his part in this. Look, I'm not trying to turn this into a GB bashing thing. I like you (as much as you can like an anonymous internet personality). From what I know you strike me as a very intelligent level headed dude and based on your responses in this thread I'd add loyal in your description as well. I just think your personal friendship with Mr. Troy has you half blind in this ordeal. |
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Posted: 8/27/2013 10:07:01 AM EDT
[#42]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
A door with a window, and the curtains tied back... Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:
Really, a sub MOA shooter and sub MOA gun shot the wrong person? That must take some incredible mental agility to believe. He must have really sucked if its true. Did you miss the part about her being behind a door? A door with a window, and the curtains tied back... "5. The position of Vicki Weaver. Horiuchi claims he was unaware that Mrs. Weaver was standing behind the door when he shot through it at Harris. Yet again, Horiuchi's testi- mony on this point has been less than consistent. Horiuchi tes- tified that, when he fired at Harris, he thought someone else might be standing behind the door, because Harris"was trying to hold the door open or moving somebody out of the way." Id. at 108. Other witnesses, too, contradict Horiuchi's claim. Sara Weaver testified that the curtain on the door was open, see Preliminary Hearing Testimony at 21, and so Horiuchi could have seen her mother through the glass pane on the door. Both Sara and Randy Weaver testified that, after the first shot, Vicki Weaver came onto the porch and called out,and so Horiuchi could have seen or heard her. See id. at 10, 92. Of course, there is evidence that supports Horiuchi's ver- sion as well. But there remain disputed facts on this issue. If Horiuchi shot through the door knowing, or having reason to believe, someone else was standing behind it, then his second shot could not be deemed reasonable." |
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Posted: 8/27/2013 10:08:15 AM EDT
[#43]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
I though he was shooting at Harris, whom he also hit? Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:
Really, a sub MOA shooter and sub MOA gun shot the wrong person? That must take some incredible mental agility to believe. He must have really sucked if its true. I don't have a problem saying I think Horiuchi specifically targeted Vicki. She was a static target. He knew the emotional toll her death would take on his enemy. he knew he could claim he was shooting at Randy. It's no coincidence that the psychological warfare via loudspeakers used her name. Sorry. Harris. You are correct. |
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Posted: 8/27/2013 10:09:30 AM EDT
[#44]
Quote HistoryQuoted: That's painting it with a wide brush. As I've said, I see your side of it, no issues there and I respect it completely. I'm not defending Monroe or his part in this. Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: So now, what have we learned? If someone is on record as being anti 2A you and Troy have no use for them but if you are one of the most notorious JBT in American History it's all good?? How do you reconcile that? That's painting it with a wide brush. As I've said, I see your side of it, no issues there and I respect it completely. I'm not defending Monroe or his part in this. |
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Posted: 8/27/2013 10:09:56 AM EDT
[#45]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
You are either fucking stupid evil, or a troll... Quote HistoryQuoted:
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Troy fan. Like I said, I read the Wikipedia since the thread started, so I'm basically an expert now. So you admittedly are willing to overlook the atrocities at RR and the fuck ups by those involved because your a fan of Troys products? Your moral compass is on par with the company you'd like to keep. Pathetic. 404 Atrocities Not Found. Taking up arms against an overwhelmingly superior force has a predictable outcome. You are either fucking stupid evil, or a troll... He's not a troll. He's likely an LEO or other agent of the state in some fashion. And he's already decided which side he will be on, and its not the side of freedom. There are a lot of people in L.E. with exactly the same mindset. Very few of them post here, although there are a couple. Its important to remember that gun and freedom enthusiast minded LEOs, of the sort we see here with stand up guys like Bama and NorCalLEO and others are, in my opinion, the exception. The rest of the cops are not bad cops (only a very small percentage are), but the overwhelming majority of LE has a statist mindset and will not hesitate to violate the constitution go "get the shitbag" (however 'shitbag' happens to be defined by their senior authorities). |
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Posted: 8/27/2013 10:10:03 AM EDT
[#46]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Not with Goatboy towing their line. Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:
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Will Troy leave this site because it's clear they've become extremely unpopular here? I predict no. Posted Via AR15.Com Mobile Arfcom is brutal and doesn't forget anything. I figure they'll bail before long. Not with Goatboy towing their line. 
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Posted: 8/27/2013 10:10:20 AM EDT
[#47]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
I couldn't even do that in Afghanistan after he had fired at me. Once he dropped the weapon ROE prevented me from taking action. I'll say this has had the most weight to me thus far, so I thank you for posting it. |
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Posted: 8/27/2013 10:12:21 AM EDT
[#48]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Shitty argument. She wasn't the target. It was a bad shoot and the shot should not have been taken, but trying to suggest she was the intended victim is horseshit. Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:
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Troy fan. Like I said, I read the Wikipedia since the thread started, so I'm basically an expert now. So you admittedly are willing to overlook the atrocities at RR and the fuck ups by those involved because your a fan of Troys products? Your moral compass is on par with the company you'd like to keep. Pathetic. 404 Atrocities Not Found. Taking up arms against an overwhelmingly superior force has a predictable outcome. Thats got to be the dumbest thing ever written on AR15.com, and thats saying a lot. When is, inside the United Sates, one of their unarmed citizens, a justified target for a Government sniper? What crime requiring justifiable homicide was she committing? Actually, it's not. Lon Horiuchi used to brag about shooting dime-sized groups at 200yds with his taxpayer-funded, custom-built rifle, with high magnification optics. From Chris Whitcomb's book and other details of the incident, Ron and Dale were well within 100yds of the Weaver's Cabin. Here is a surveillance photo the US Marshals took of Vicki Weaver before they were compromised and gunned-down Sam's dog: 
Terrible sketch by FBI Sharpshooter with a Sniper-wannabe identity issue before blasting Vicki in the head. 
We know the story about using deadly force being justified by Randy and Harris shooting at the helicopter is total BS, in order to cover-up the murder of civilians. Even the use of force against Randy Weaver by attempting to shoot him in the spine (and missing at such close range), is unjustifiable, and further contradicts their BS cover-up story. When you really break down the FBI's version of events, from Coulson on down, you see nothing but a series of inconsistencies, lies, and amateur attempts at a cover-up of an obvious cluster. If I attempted to pass off an objective sketch like that during SOTIC, or even our basic Scout/Observer training in any of my Scout Platoons, I likely would have been sent back to the line in conjunction with another gross display of failure to not possess the skill set necessary for that job. There is nothing professional at all about this event that I can find on the FBI's contribution to it. |
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Posted: 8/27/2013 10:12:26 AM EDT
[#49]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
I just found this thread from the "Unofficial Troy lost sales thread." I don't have time to read through all the pages to figure out what's going on. Are there Cliff Notes somewhere? I was lost on the whole thing too, GB summed it up for me a couple pages ago Troy hired an anti2nd guy. Freak out. Troy fires him immediately. People found out they also hired the former FBI guy who participated in Ruby Ridge. Freak out 2. Troy announced they will retain said FBI guy. Freak out part 3. |
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Posted: 8/27/2013 10:12:41 AM EDT
[#50]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Sorry. Harris. You are correct. Quote HistoryQuoted:
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I don't have a problem saying I think Horiuchi specifically targeted Vicki. She was a static target. He knew the emotional toll her death would take on his enemy. he knew he could claim he was shooting at Randy. It's no coincidence that the psychological warfare via loudspeakers used her name. Sorry. Harris. You are correct. "4. Was Horiuchi reasonably sure of his target? Even if Horiuchi's story about his concern for the helicopter is believed, it still does not explain why he shot Harris rather than Randy Weaver. After all, Horiuchi only observed one of the two men holding a rifle and making menacing gestures toward the helicopter. This observation might have justified shooting that man, certainly not the other one. Knowingly shooting the man who did not threaten the helicopter, just because he was armed and in the vicinity, would not have been constitutionally permissible. Indeed, Horiuchi does not attempt to justify shooting Harris on this basis. Rather, he claims that he made a mistake--that he shot Harris when he meant to shoot Weaver. Horiuchi, once again, contradicts himself. During the Wea- ver criminal trial, he testified that the two men were dressed in similar black clothing and he could not tell them apart. See Horiuchi Testimony, p. 6947 supra, at 238-39. If this testi- mony is credited, then Horiuchi would have had no cause to believe that Weaver was the second man running into the cabin, rather than the first. At most, it would establish that Horiuchi thought there was a 50/50 chance the man he was shooting was the one he had seen threatening the helicopter. This is far less certainty than an officer must have before tak- ing human life." This and previous post's quotes from http://fl1.findlaw.com/news.findlaw.com/cnn/docs/rubyridge/idhoriuchi60501.pdf |
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