I supported my position with common sense - something your position can't withstand.   You didn't answer my question.

So the users you speak of bore no responsibility for themselves? How very liberal of you.

What about alcoholics? Should we execute employees of Jack Daniels?

Fucking idiocy.

Edited. But please for the love of everything good no more heroines on muh streets!

Then we can use the existing laws against homicide.

What percentage of these people are the "normal" people as opposed to a typical junkie?  Or is it hard to tell because the normal people look like junkies by the time they OD?

Do you have enough exposure to determine who has a home and kids and who had a real life that was ruined versus the typical demographic of someone homeless and mentally ill?

Not an argument, I am genuinely interested in the observations.  A close friend's brother is serving a 40 year sentence for heroin, and he tells me that the first time he injected it, it ruined his life, because nothing in the world feels as good. He said that every time he got out of prison, he knew he was going to wind up getting back on it and wind up back in prison.

I helped him with a job, an apartment, and with counseling, and yet he fell back into it.

Your moronic comparison shows just how ignorant you are on the subject.

True.  How do you think Donny the Drug Dealer is gonna react when the cops show up to arrest him for dealing, when he knows he's looking at death?  He's gonna do down in a blaze of glory.  Vastly more violence will result, and that in turn will result in stricter gun laws.

Trump can stay true to his word, and for every regulation or law that enhances penalties for heroin/opiates, he can de-schedule something relatively harmless.  He can get a suggested list from MAPS.

Unless you're discussing *use* as the epidemic, instead of ODs, there's no other way to parse this statement.

If, you're discussing USE then, your assertion that epidemics aren't caused by new users is similarly flawed.

If *that* is the case, you're suggesting that the "epidemic" is caused by people who were already using drugs but, not heroin, who then switched to heroin ONLY because of its availability, with no outside catalyst.

So, then, how would explain that behavioral phenomenon?

Your logic is so twisted and flawed that's it's difficult to discern your actual point, regardless of how much typing you do.

I'm not saying your logic is flawed because you disagree with me, FWIW. I'm saying the conclusions you appear to have reached aren't based in reality.

That's a guess, by the way, because you keep saying one thing and then saying you aren't saying that thing. Your inability to form a cogent argument has forced me to just take pot shots to determine your meaning.

No, I don’t. In fact, I’d venture to say my grasp of the written English language is well above average. I even have the ability, and desire, to use proper grammar.

For example, what you meant to type was:

“You suck at reading, too.”

In light of the fact that you don’t appear to have the desire, or knowledge, to use a simple comma, have you considered the possibility that you suck at writing?

(And this is all just a bunch a dribble... Just like your long-winded, emotionally driven posts.)

I have tried almost everything out there in my youth. Zero problem walking away from any of it.

I have known people lost to drugs. Some recovered, some didn't. I have seem the same with alcoholics.

The ones who recovered from alcohol had the same issues as those on other drugs.

There is very little difference and the two don't need to be compared because they are the same thing: drugs.

I see precious little sense in your replies, common or otherwise.
I'll answer you question when you've brought more to the discussion than "because I said so."

Based on every post I’ve ever seen you make, I hereby declare you have my proxy for opinions in all matters regarding the state.

I should seriously just follow you around and say, “yeah! What he said.”

You do realize that:
1- There is no hell
2- The average user can be charged with distribution in most cases and is probably guilty of that.
3- The permanent damage will increase as many users will be put to death.

I'll sum this whole thread up...

As this is how it has gone on for years (trust me I'v heard all these tired old arguments for over 30 years)

The ones who actually have dealt firsthand with the damage of drugs will be all for dealers being exicuted

While the ones who Think they know will continue to spout nonsense since they truly are ignorant to the facts.

False. Many of us opposing this have dealt with it. Either personally, watching family or friends struggle or die, being harassed by police doing WOD stuff, etc. The fact is that the government has made the problem worse on every front. Adding executions to the government powers will just make things exponentially worse.

Hell, some of us are recovering addicts.

That's a good point, from a legal perspective.

My argument is coherent and consistent, if you would stop trying to re-interpret everything. It's very simple.  I'll try to type more slowly.

I meant the people USING heroin, like I said.  I don't know how you got hung up on OD's.  The rehab centers and jails are full of people that are there because they use heroin.  The reason more people are USING heroin is that there is more heroin, not because there are more people that want to use it, and not because doctors are passing out more pills.  They were there all along, willing to try any drugs.  NOW, they have heroin.

There has always been, and always will be a segment of any population that enjoys using drugs.  What has caused the opioid epidemic is the widespread availability of heroin.  There have ALWAYS been drug seekers at doctors offices.  In the past, they were much more successful than they are now, and doctors were much less concerned about it.  Look at Valium.   That was the first one I remember being an issue with over-presribing.  Quaaludes got put on schedule 1.  It's nothing new.  There was no epidemic.  What IS new is heroin as an alternative.   Before that, around here it was meth, for the exact same reason.  Do you think that epidemic was started by doctors?  What about crack?  What pills led them to that?  Turn your fake news filter on for a minute, and give it some thought.

Did you get addicted to pills from your doctor first, or did you mess around with drugs since high school?

If that's the case, then they should be executed for murder, not drug dealing without a license.  There is no need to change laws here, just enforce the death penalty for those that commit multiple homocides.

Pretty much this.

Should gun dealers be put to death if a gun they sold is used to kill someone?

It's a fucking stupid idea and Trump should start to learn to shut his fucking mouth.

All of those for the deeath penalty for drug dealers are a bunch of statists - asking the gov to have such control is so contrary to our principles and creation as a nation.

And that's where I stopped reading. I can't compete with that level of delusion.

Sure sounds like a good day to me.

That's what liberals do - look for any way out of a debate they know they can't win.  

How much heroin would have to be available before you started using it?

This isn't a debate. This is you saying "I know you are but, what am I?"

ughhhhhh .... decriminalize all drugs, the end

Am I taking crazy pills, or have you denied making this statement multiple times, even though you’ve stated it multiple times?

I don't trust The State to administer the death penalty.

Drunk drivers too.

Yes let's kill people who sell stuff to other people they want to buy.

Good.

It varies.  It really does.  

Any EMS location will have it's "regulars".  By looking at them, you get a general "sense" that they have been leading a drug stricken life for awhile.  Generally speaking, I don't get to interview them about their demographics.  Sometimes it's at home, sometimes it's not.  Sometimes its in the bathroom of a bar, sometimes it's in the back alley.  I have responded to locations where there were kids in the house.  LE gets called to handle that.  

What really gets to me is the good looking 20yo girl who gets caught up with the "sample".  You see, the drug dealers will give out a single "dose" for free to get people hooked.  They will distribute a bundle of syringes for several people...they don't even have to be dealers.  More often than not, it's users who get a little extra on the side for free.  Basically "Okay, I'll charge you $100 for X amount.  I will also give you 20 samples to hand out.  You hand out those 20 samples to people and I'll give you a little extra or charge a little less.  Use the samples on yourself and you'll be dead".  So there's a lot incentive for the samples to get pushed.  These are how some kids OD on their first "try".  They have no idea how much to inject or what their bodies can and cannot handle.  OR they get so messed up everyone thinks they are OD'ing when really...the shits just doing it's job to their clear spring water blood.  All they know is they got "a sample".  They just assume whatever is in there is what they should take.  Naive kids.  

So when you get called to those groups, it's younger people who are clearly new to the scene.   Some change their lives, some don't.  Addiction rates vary from person to person.  But you're exactly right...people in their right minds after words will tell that heroin is awesome!  There's a desire to get more and get back to that high.  But with each injection is a diminishing return.  So you keep up'ing the dose and use more regularly.  Then people try new places to inject it without understanding how much they should inject.  One call, the gal injected herself in the eye.  That was nasty.  Another dude went to do it in his gums, got bumped and the needle went through his cheeks and into his nasal sinus cavity and out the side...

So I mean, it's all nasty stuff.  Where I get really mad is when you get these regulars that you're trying to help...and the SO gets shitty with you, looks you in the eye, and says "Just shoot them with the Narcan.  That's what YOU'RE supposed to do!  That's why YOU are here!"  Personal responsibility is absolutely 100% out the door with these regulars because they know if something goes wrong, call EMS, and they fix everything.  Narcan and Naloxone work.  Almost too well IMHO.  It's like an instant stomach pump machine at a frat house.  If you could instantly void your system of alcohol if things go south...why would you ever drink in moderation?  Why would you ever be a responsible drinker?  You wouldn't.  Worst part, those regulars think that they are 100% fine or cured once you narcan their asses.  They don't have the concept that even though you've counteracted their OD that they aren't doing serious damage to their bodies.  They don't get that.  Course they're not in the right mind most of the time. 

Sorry, that was long winded.  To answer the question, I see all types.  I can only imagine that if you get called to an OD that the patients life is trending downhill most of the time.  

If heroine were to instantly disappear completely and forever:

-  What would the users do?
-  What would the dealers do?

If whatever alternative dealers and users turned to were similarly taken away--then what?

Even in such fantasy scenarios as these what's the end state?  What's the end state in real world scenarios?

Can the WoD possibly be successful?  I think not.  Ones who think it can, please describe--seriously describe--what its success would produce.  What will have changed?

Fuck it, as long as we're wishing let's "uninvent" hate, envy, greed and violence.

I mean if we're going to play out a fantasy, let's just do away with evil, entirely.

Pass, I don't trust the State. Never happen anyways, silly comment to make. Hey Trump how about quit shooting off your mouth whenever something pops into your head.

Very informative, thanks.
Damn. So for the very hardcore users, Narcan is just a standard part of coming down from the high.

Legally.

Agreed. That's not trafficking.

But they will continually lower the bar to what is considered traffcking.

Same as lowering the bar to CAF.  Some places, if you are driving around with a thousand bucks and they want your money...they get your money...because NOBODY drives around with that much cash except drug dealers.  No trial, no receipt, no nothing.  Then the department has a big party with your money.

Legally, you should have no responsibility, since you didn't violate anyone's rights. (Note: you said "should," I answered in kind.)

Unless you think that people aren't responsible for their actions.

I'm not a user, so I can't say for sure but if I had to venture a guess - they don't "plan" on OD'ing.  I don't believe they go "I will shoot up until I OD and then just call the EMS guys to fix me".  What I believe it does is lowers their inhibitions and makes them take more risks.  Like "I know I could do X amount last time...but I want more...I think I'll do X + 1 this time".  

Maybe like what Plan B does?  "Well...I don't have a condom...but if it goes too far I will just go get Plan B in the morning".  Then the woman would lower her otherwise better judgement in pursuit of "fun" or her "fix".  

I'm not willing to use heroin.   Sorry.  

Oh, my bad. I was just going on what you actually posted.

Zero tolerance works in Singapore.   They DON'T have much of a drug problem.

Here in America, the cops carry Narcan so losers can be kept alive to keep spreading the misery around to everybody who has to deal with them and may once have cared about them.

I say ban Narcan.  If you're stupid enough to OD on opioids, the sadness that follows your death is nothing compared to the sadness you spread around you during the drug addicted phase of your life.

As it stands now the "War on drugs" is a scam.   We fight it just hard enough to ensure lifetime employment for those people and organizations that derive their living from pursuing this little "war" and providing support for it.

War should not be fought in half measures.   You come to conquer or you stay home or just surrender.  The war on drugs should be no different.

I'd be in favor of sending over our bomber fleet loaded with napalm and defoliants and keep ripping the shit out of Mexico and Columbia and other major drug source countries until such time as their governments take decisive anti-cartel action of their own.   That'll take some work because their governments are very much corrupt and paid for by the cartels.

I guess you never lost a family member to drugs 'eh?
As Hanover Fist said...
He's nothing but a low-down double-dealing backstabbing larcenous perverted worm.... Hanging's too good for him Burning's too good for him He should be torn into little bitsy pieces and buried alive.

Fuck dopers, fuck dealers, they all need to rote in fucking hell with a needle through their heart and a bong shoved up their ass.

go "muh freedom!" somewhere else.