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Posted: 8/21/2017 2:22:20 PM EDT
[#1]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Thank you for your input, you know nothing. The President has nothing to do with choosing anyone O-6 on down in the military, and the CO of a DDG is an O-5. So take your political bullshit and shove it. |
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Posted: 8/21/2017 2:35:53 PM EDT
[#2]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Nope. |
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Posted: 8/21/2017 2:37:46 PM EDT
[#3]
 Collision of US Guided missile destroyer JOHN MCCAIN and TANKER ALNIC MC in Singapore waters AIS track. Apparently collision at about 0:50 |
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Posted: 8/21/2017 2:43:30 PM EDT
[#4]
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Makes me sick to my stomach to see this happening. |
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Posted: 8/21/2017 2:46:18 PM EDT
[#5]
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One might conclude that the Navy ship should have anticipated the collision and gotten the fuck out of the way, it presumably being the more maneuverable of the two ships. Quote HistoryQuoted:
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Everyone is blaming the Navy ship (as of pg 2), but what if some idiot civi crew decided to drink and play xbox and went into them? The damage seems consistant with someone else hitting them. |
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Posted: 8/21/2017 4:02:04 PM EDT
[#6]
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That's assuming they could. There isn't much room in the area, and any sudden deviation could send them into another ship. If they are obaying the right of way rules and the tanker wasn't, they are at a severe disadvantage. |
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Posted: 8/21/2017 4:05:00 PM EDT
[#7]
Defense Secretary Jim Mattis said on Monday (pictured above) that Navy Adm. John Richardson will call for a pause in operations and seek a deeper look at how the Navy trains and certifies its forces that are operating around Japan. 
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Posted: 8/21/2017 4:19:34 PM EDT
[#8]
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When serious enough mishaps occur, the AF will conduct 2 investigations: a safety investigation and an accident investigation. The purpose of the safety investigation is mishap prevention. Its findings are "privileged". I.E., only shared with those who need to know and who are trained in protecting safety priveledged information. The findings legally cannot be shared outside safety channels, and no assignment of blame or retribution is made. The accident investigation is where the lawyers get involved, and people get in trouble. Those results are fully released. The navy do it similarly? Quote HistoryQuoted:
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The Navy always tells us what happened, they just haven't yet. We are the most transparent of all the services in our investigations. Investigations take time and people's rights have to be preserved as fact-finding is done. Once it's done, most Navy investigations are released in some form, if not the results from them are publicly explained. We don't cover shit up. The accident investigation is where the lawyers get involved, and people get in trouble. Those results are fully released. The navy do it similarly? |
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Posted: 8/21/2017 4:22:56 PM EDT
[#9]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
http://i.dailymail.co.uk/i/pix/2017/08/21/17/4368147E00000578-4808780-image-a-46_1503331947583.jpg Defense Secretary Jim Mattis said on Monday (pictured above) that Navy Adm. John Richardson will call for a pause in operations and seek a deeper look at how the Navy trains and certifies its forces that are operating around Japan. http://i.dailymail.co.uk/i/pix/2017/08/21/17/436FC19D00000578-4808780-image-a-42_1503331749319.jpg http://i.dailymail.co.uk/i/pix/2017/08/21/18/436E716000000578-4808780-image-a-13_1503335881231.jpg http://i.dailymail.co.uk/i/pix/2017/08/21/18/436E718600000578-4808780-image-a-14_1503335886437.jpg |
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Posted: 8/21/2017 4:28:05 PM EDT
[#10]
Some Admiral will get fired for this. In addition to all the firings about to happen on MCCAIN.
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Posted: 8/21/2017 4:35:56 PM EDT
[#11]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
http://i.dailymail.co.uk/i/pix/2017/08/21/17/4368147E00000578-4808780-image-a-46_1503331947583.jpg Defense Secretary Jim Mattis said on Monday (pictured above) that Navy Adm. John Richardson will call for a pause in operations and seek a deeper look at how the Navy trains and certifies its forces that are operating around Japan. http://i.dailymail.co.uk/i/pix/2017/08/21/17/436FC19D00000578-4808780-image-a-42_1503331749319.jpg http://i.dailymail.co.uk/i/pix/2017/08/21/18/436E716000000578-4808780-image-a-13_1503335881231.jpg http://i.dailymail.co.uk/i/pix/2017/08/21/18/436E718600000578-4808780-image-a-14_1503335886437.jpg |
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Posted: 8/21/2017 4:44:07 PM EDT
[#12]
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Some Admiral will get fired for this. In addition to all the firings about to happen on MCCAIN. |
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Posted: 8/21/2017 4:44:18 PM EDT
[#13]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Some Admiral will get fired for this. In addition to all the firings about to happen on MCCAIN. |
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Posted: 8/21/2017 5:05:42 PM EDT
[#14]
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I get that where this happened is very busy. How does that area compare to going through or being just outside a canal. Such as the Suez or Panma canal. I would guess there would be more organization in the waiting area of a canal but still a ton of ships. Everyone here is moving. |
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Posted: 8/21/2017 5:35:29 PM EDT
[#15]
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Shit Johnie Wet Start has ship named after him. Caused the death of 154 sailors on the USS Forestall and a traitor to the POW/MIA cause. and a North Vietnamese informant know as the "SONG BIRD"....no wonder this country is screwed with idiots like that in Congress...! Nothing but a POS RHINO who sleeps with Soros and any muslum for a dollar donation to his McCain FOUNDATION slush fund.... |
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Posted: 8/21/2017 5:39:44 PM EDT
[#16]
A term to be familiar with is Traffic Separation Scheme, or TSS. It looks like the McCain may have tried to cut across the TSS for that area.
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Posted: 8/21/2017 5:44:03 PM EDT
[#17]
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As well they should - no excuse for this at all. Quote HistoryQuoted:
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Some Admiral will get fired for this. In addition to all the firings about to happen on MCCAIN. Never been in the Navy on a destroyer but I'd think they have sophisticated radar systems that are being watched by several men at all times. 
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Posted: 8/21/2017 5:49:55 PM EDT
[#18]
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CDS-15 is the next in line up the chain, and he's an o-6. I doubt it gets to seventh fleet. He retires in ten days anyway I think. |
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Posted: 8/21/2017 6:07:52 PM EDT
[#19]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
With the surface radars the ships have today and being able to predict where paths may intercept, surely there is some warning about possible collisions well ahead of time. Quote HistoryQuoted:
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Collisions of warships in congested areas are nothing new. There were untold numbers of them during WW2 and I'm sure they were all maneuvering to avoid one another. I fear the missing are probably in the flooded compartments. If they went in the water after this many hours it doesn't look good either.  The radar doesn't always pick up every contact as some are masked by other ships or there is just clutter that obscures returns. In the area where this collision occurred, there are hundreds of ships, so you can only deal with a finite number at any one time. Bridge personnel have to correlate each radar return to a visual observation and that is not always easy because visual distance estimation is skewed by ship size. Finally, any maneuver to open CPA on one contact may reduce CPA on many other contacts. You have to play chess and think many moves ahead. If you listen to audio from the Porter's SOH collision a few years ago, you hear the bridge team asking to slow down to 5 knots because they were overwhelmed and thought that reducing speed would slow down the problem. In reality, what they did was reduce their ability to get out of trouble, because turning beats speed almost every time and ships turn like shit when they are slow. I've driven a ship through Straits of Bonifaccio, Gibraltar, and Bosporous, and Dardanelles, none of which is as messy as where this occurred. That area is crazytown. Not trying to excuse the incident, because it should not have happened, but it's not as easy as just looking at a display, seeing something obvious, and making a turn. |
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Posted: 8/21/2017 6:18:44 PM EDT
[#20]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
A term to be familiar with is Traffic Separation Scheme, or TSS. It looks like the McCain may have tried to cut across the TSS for that area. Quote HistoryQuoted:
A term to be familiar with is Traffic Separation Scheme, or TSS. It looks like the McCain may have tried to cut across the TSS for that area. I pulled this quote off of another forum I'm a member of, a professional mariner forum. What I have always found strange is the difference in the Navy warfare officer communities. Aviators seem to take great pride and spend a lot of time perfecting their skills as pilots. Specwar officers officers seem to take great pride and spend a lot of time perfecting their skills as operators. Surface warefare officers seem to train to be quasi-shore based paper pushers who are forced to take sea billets to advance and dont seem to have too much interest in being a skilled seafarer. They do not, in fact, train to be skilled seafarers. Rather, they seem to train to be weapons/tactics officers who happen to also have to drive their weapons platform to the combat area as an auxilliary duty. They seek to achieve competency rather than mastery in navigation. This is simply my observations from working with and knowing several Naval officers. I cant speak for submariners as I havent known any. |
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Posted: 8/21/2017 6:22:18 PM EDT
[#21]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Is this a joke? https://www.AR15.Com/media/mediaFiles/284035/McCainFatherandGrandfather-285983.JPG How did they ever win wars looking like that? Their uniforms aren't pressed, the gig line is off, they don't have seven rows of ribbons and a dozen badges, and those shoes look like they were shines with a Hershey bar. They don't even have the same belts. Fucking shitbags. I ought to NJP your asses. [/E-9s today] I do think the old school navy uniforms were the best. Khaki cotton long sleeved and nobody cared if sleeves were rolled up. Add in the Combination cover instead of the Pisscutter. Officers and chiefs in khaki. Ratings in Crackerjacks (with Liberty cuffs and sailor cap at an angle) or dungarees, the way God intended. And no women on ships. |
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Posted: 8/21/2017 6:26:03 PM EDT
[#22]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
If that's the case then we have lost another Aegis DDG to incompetence. I pulled this quote off of another forum I'm a member of, a professional mariner forum. Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
A term to be familiar with is Traffic Separation Scheme, or TSS. It looks like the McCain may have tried to cut across the TSS for that area. I pulled this quote off of another forum I'm a member of, a professional mariner forum. What I have always found strange is the difference in the Navy warfare officer communities. Aviators seem to take great pride and spend a lot of time perfecting their skills as pilots. Specwar officers officers seem to take great pride and spend a lot of time perfecting their skills as operators. Surface warefare officers seem to train to be quasi-shore based paper pushers who are forced to take sea billets to advance and dont seem to have too much interest in being a skilled seafarer. They do not, in fact, train to be skilled seafarers. Rather, they seem to train to be weapons/tactics officers who happen to also have to drive their weapons platform to the combat area as an auxilliary duty. They seek to achieve competency rather than mastery in navigation. This is simply my observations from working with and knowing several Naval officers. I cant speak for submariners as I havent known any. |
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Posted: 8/21/2017 6:30:25 PM EDT
[#23]
It doesn't even look like anyone tried to turn to avoid a collision. It was pegged like some white dude in a strap on video.
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Posted: 8/21/2017 6:57:00 PM EDT
[#24]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
We'll have to wait for the investigations to know what really happened. 
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Posted: 8/21/2017 6:58:38 PM EDT
[#25]
This is an interesting study on the topic of MSC versus US Navy shiphandling, general proficiency, and comparable seatime:
https://www.cna.org/CNA_files/PDF/D0011501.A2.pdf |
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Posted: 8/21/2017 7:15:28 PM EDT
[#26]
I was speaking with retired DDG SWO over the weekend about this (before news of this latest incident) and he basically told me none of their navigational aids/radar/etc. are of any use when you have some 23 year old Ensign on watch with a bunch of younger enlisted guys and everyone is dicking off. He said these accidents are purely a function of tired sailors, no one doing their jobs, and shooting the shit on watch. And it's very common. Kinda blew my mind a bit.
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Posted: 8/21/2017 7:18:54 PM EDT
[#27]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
This is an interesting study on the topic of MSC versus US Navy shiphandling, general proficiency, and comparable seatime: https://www.cna.org/CNA_files/PDF/D0011501.A2.pdf He's had a hard couple years working with MSC though. 
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Posted: 8/21/2017 7:43:18 PM EDT
[#28]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
I was speaking with retired DDG SWO over the weekend about this (before news of this latest incident) and he basically told me none of their navigational aids/radar/etc. are of any use when you have some 23 year old Ensign on watch with a bunch of younger enlisted guys and everyone is dicking off. He said these accidents are purely a function of tired sailors, no one doing their jobs, and shooting the shit on watch. And it's very common. Kinda blew my mind a bit. |
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Posted: 8/21/2017 8:22:20 PM EDT
[#29]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
That is a very simplistic point of view. Yes, ships have radars that offer predicted CPAs, but for a limited number of contacts at any one time. Some let you enter trial maneuvers to see the effect on CPA, but probably for a limited number of contacts. Quote HistoryQuoted:
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Collisions of warships in congested areas are nothing new. There were untold numbers of them during WW2 and I'm sure they were all maneuvering to avoid one another. I fear the missing are probably in the flooded compartments. If they went in the water after this many hours it doesn't look good either. |
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Posted: 8/21/2017 8:33:28 PM EDT
[#30]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Outside a Canal, tons of ships... but they're mostly not moving. Everyone here is moving. |
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Posted: 8/21/2017 8:39:21 PM EDT
[#31]
An Aegis DDG can track numerous targets in a hemeshpere? But can't watch these ships?
Are they just targets now of " innocuous" vessels? |
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Posted: 8/21/2017 8:40:10 PM EDT
[#32]
His senility carried on to his namesake.
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Posted: 8/21/2017 8:53:35 PM EDT
[#33]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
As a no-nothing civilian, this explanation seems really unsatisfying. Modern video games can have dozens and dozens of players firing at each other and keep track of where all the bullets are going and determining hits and misses in real time. Surely calculating potential intersections of any realistic number ships should be easy for modern computers. Am I missing something? That's not to say it would always be perfect, but some kind of hardware limitation in tracking/prediction seems unbelievable to me. Surface contacts are volitional. The bits in a video game are determined. A better analogy would be an autonomous car trying to navigate traffic. They get in a lot of wrecks. |
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Posted: 8/21/2017 8:58:41 PM EDT
[#34]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Agreed, but my conspiracy meter is starting to ping. Just makes me wonder if there is a bounty on US naval ships in the Pacific. Probably not but I refuse to believe this could happen twice in such a short period of time by chance. Occam's razor and all that would say it is pure chance. Who knows. I hope our sailors are safe and accounted for. "US Navy collisions stoke cyber threat concerns" http://www.mcclatchydc.com/news/nation-world/national/national-security/article168470432.html |
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Posted: 8/21/2017 9:17:59 PM EDT
[#35]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
An Aegis DDG can track numerous targets in a hemeshpere? But can't watch these ships? Are they just targets now of " innocuous" vessels? 
Kharn |
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Posted: 8/21/2017 9:25:20 PM EDT
[#36]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Poor analogy. Surface contacts are volitional. The bits in a video game are determined. A better analogy would be an autonomous car trying to navigate traffic. They get in a lot of wrecks. Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
As a no-nothing civilian, this explanation seems really unsatisfying. Modern video games can have dozens and dozens of players firing at each other and keep track of where all the bullets are going and determining hits and misses in real time. Surely calculating potential intersections of any realistic number ships should be easy for modern computers. Am I missing something? That's not to say it would always be perfect, but some kind of hardware limitation in tracking/prediction seems unbelievable to me. Surface contacts are volitional. The bits in a video game are determined. A better analogy would be an autonomous car trying to navigate traffic. They get in a lot of wrecks.  War Thunder (SB) - Dogfight Montage Here the game has to be able to keep track of a large number of players all constantly generating inputs like speed and direction in 3 dimensional space, bullet physics and collision detection. The game is able to calculate all of this and display it for the players in real time. But in the end it's all just math that computers are pretty good at doing quickly. How is that really any different for a ship's radar/tracking computers? To a computer, whether the data it's getting is 'real' or not shouldn't matter, it doesn't know the difference. |
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Posted: 8/21/2017 10:01:02 PM EDT
[#37]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
As a no-nothing civilian, this explanation seems really unsatisfying. Modern video games can have dozens and dozens of players firing at each other and keep track of where all the bullets are going and determining hits and misses in real time. Surely calculating potential intersections of any realistic number ships should be easy for modern computers. Am I missing something? That's not to say it would always be perfect, but some kind of hardware limitation in tracking/prediction seems unbelievable to me. http://www.netc.navy.mil/centers/swos/Simulators.htm Get the fuck outta here. 
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Posted: 8/21/2017 10:02:03 PM EDT
[#38]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
His senility carried on to his namesake. |
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Posted: 8/21/2017 10:03:31 PM EDT
[#39]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Is it really though? Let's take a game like War Thunder:  https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=L-P7pPgniGA
Here the game has to be able to keep track of a large number of players all constantly generating inputs like speed and direction in 3 dimensional space, bullet physics and collision detection. The game is able to calculate all of this and display it for the players in real time. But in the end it's all just math that computers are pretty good at doing quickly. How is that really any different for a ship's radar/tracking computers? To a computer, whether the data it's getting is 'real' or not shouldn't matter, it doesn't know the difference. |
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Posted: 8/21/2017 10:04:44 PM EDT
[#40]
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If only the Navy had some sort of a simulator.... http://www.netc.navy.mil/centers/swos/Simulators.htm Get the fuck outta here. You seem to have read something else in to it. |
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Posted: 8/21/2017 10:08:03 PM EDT
[#41]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Shit Johnie Wet Start has ship named after him. Caused the death of 154 sailors on the USS Forestall |
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Posted: 8/21/2017 10:22:14 PM EDT
[#42]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Yes, radar, AIS, etc provide CPA, TCPA and some other information, but all of that still needs to be interpreted and acted upon. When you have 50 or 60 different contacts you are watching, it's easy for something to slip through (especially if they are overtaking) Quote HistoryQuoted:
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Is it really though? Let's take a game like War Thunder: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=L-P7pPgniGA
Here the game has to be able to keep track of a large number of players all constantly generating inputs like speed and direction in 3 dimensional space, bullet physics and collision detection. The game is able to calculate all of this and display it for the players in real time. But in the end it's all just math that computers are pretty good at doing quickly. How is that really any different for a ship's radar/tracking computers? To a computer, whether the data it's getting is 'real' or not shouldn't matter, it doesn't know the difference. Shouldn't these systems be able to calculate a CPA on all 50-60 contacts, assuming you have data on them? The math to do this does not seem like it would be that difficult for a computer. |
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Posted: 8/21/2017 10:27:03 PM EDT
[#43]
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Wanna make a trip to the pit to see if your post stands up to the truth for a permaban? |
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Posted: 8/21/2017 10:30:16 PM EDT
[#44]
New reports are saying the McCain had a "steering casualty" prior to the collision.
It certainly was an inopportune time to have one! |
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Posted: 8/21/2017 10:38:38 PM EDT
[#45]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
One cranky fucker I know (who admittedly may be viewing the situation through a straw), would say that there's more time to concentrate on those things when one completely foregoes maintenance tasks. He's had a hard couple years working with MSC though. Quote HistoryQuoted:
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This is an interesting study on the topic of MSC versus US Navy shiphandling, general proficiency, and comparable seatime: https://www.cna.org/CNA_files/PDF/D0011501.A2.pdf He's had a hard couple years working with MSC though. |
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Posted: 8/21/2017 10:42:00 PM EDT
[#46]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Understood and I'm not saying let the computers run everything on autopilot. But H46D made it seem like there's some hardware limit to the ability to calculate potential collisions beyond some small number of contacts. That just seems odd to me. Shouldn't these systems be able to calculate a CPA on all 50-60 contacts, assuming you have data on them? The math to do this does not seem like it would be that difficult for a computer. Radar and AIS are great tools if used properly, but they aren't perfect. |
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Posted: 8/21/2017 10:42:40 PM EDT
[#47]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
As a no-nothing civilian, this explanation seems really unsatisfying. Modern video games can have dozens and dozens of players firing at each other and keep track of where all the bullets are going and determining hits and misses in real time. Surely calculating potential intersections of any realistic number ships should be easy for modern computers. Am I missing something? That's not to say it would always be perfect, but some kind of hardware limitation in tracking/prediction seems unbelievable to me. Quote HistoryQuoted:
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Collisions of warships in congested areas are nothing new. There were untold numbers of them during WW2 and I'm sure they were all maneuvering to avoid one another. I fear the missing are probably in the flooded compartments. If they went in the water after this many hours it doesn't look good either. I used to run the one set in North up stabilized true motion with ARPA on, and the other in heading up relative motion with trails and an offset EBL on the cursor and VRM. |
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Posted: 8/21/2017 10:48:57 PM EDT
[#48]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
I don't know about those systems. I know nav radars on previous ships I've been on are usually around 100. In this scenario, you would have a screen covered with nothing but motion vectors and symbols flashing red based on minimum CPA alarm settings Quote HistoryQuoted:
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Understood and I'm not saying let the computers run everything on autopilot. But H46D made it seem like there's some hardware limit to the ability to calculate potential collisions beyond some small number of contacts. That just seems odd to me. Shouldn't these systems be able to calculate a CPA on all 50-60 contacts, assuming you have data on them? The math to do this does not seem like it would be that difficult for a computer. |
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Posted: 8/21/2017 10:51:54 PM EDT
[#49]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
The cool thing about running one set in relative motion and offset EBL is there's no effective limit to the number of CPAs you can keep track of. I used to run the one set in North up stabilized true motion with ARPA on, and the other in heading up relative motion with trails and an offset EBL on the cursor and VRM.
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Posted: 8/21/2017 11:03:55 PM EDT
[#50]
I'm not trying to look like a conspiracy theorist. But what is putting our ships so close to others?
I'm not saying that there are ships out there dead set on ramming them. But what are they actually doing that's putting them in the paths of other vessels? It doesn't seem like they are just traversing the strait as hundreds of ships a day do with pit a problem, but simple why are they maneuvering on a course that is crossing so well defined shipping lanes that were ending up in this situation. Both of these ships seeming to be "responding" to other incidents to turn out of a well defined lane, to put themselves in danger. Both what it seems to be by trying to cross it in one way or another. Are they running anti piracy calls? Are they looking to intercept questionable ships? Are they just assigned a sector and go in circles? Are they just dicking around and trying to see who is the biggest badass? Roughly, it's one 300gt ship every 6 minutes going through the straight. A Burke class destroyer can put 3.5 miles behind her in 6 minutes. Are we just failing so much we can't figure out basic trig and algebra in the most technologically advanced era in human history? Are we just waiving our dick so much we don't care and want to mess with people by stupid games. Or is it something truly hateful that were being lead not to look into? |
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