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Posted: 5/23/2023 11:55:28 AM EDT
[#1]
Quote HistoryQuoted: We aren't talking about the top 5%-25%... we are talking about the bottom 5%-25%. You don't staff your top jobs with imported labor- for many different reasons... not just wages. Latin American labor is a great benefit to the US economy because it maintains a level of quality at the lower jobs while also keeping the wages for such jobs reasonable- many lower-job-employees that want healthcare and benefits and vacation are simply not being realistic or reasonable. We staff those jobs with Latin American labor and we get good services at good prices so that we can focus on upskilling and climbing the ladder of success. Likewise they are climbing as well- and they're coming for you! This is the American Way- every day we compete. That's why we have social mobility that isn't possible anywhere else in the world, and that's why the hardest workers come here to make a better life than then can have at home. Signed, US Chamber of Commerce Dipshits. Tell me you haven't met Chavistas without telling me you haven't met Chavistas. I bet you also think the US is a "Proposition Nation". "Everybody who wants to be an American is, dur, hur, I luvs John McCain". But it's OK--you went to Colombia, once, so you know everything. PS--they don't want social mobility. They want "gibs". Link to Spanish language news sources that say otherwise. You won't, shit, you can't spell simple Spanish words correctly, but go ahead and lecture me on what they want and what they'll do. Dipshit. |
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Posted: 5/23/2023 12:17:52 PM EDT
[#2]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Signed, US Chamber of Commerce Dipshits. Tell me you haven't met Chavistas without telling me you haven't met Chavistas. I bet you also think the US is a "Proposition Nation". "Everybody who wants to be an American is, dur, hur, I luvs John McCain". But it's OK--you went to Colombia, once, so you know everything. PS--they don't want social mobility. They want "gibs". Link to Spanish language news sources that say otherwise. You won't, shit, you can't spell simple Spanish words correctly, but go ahead and lecture me on what they want and what they'll do. Dipshit.  |
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Posted: 5/23/2023 12:39:26 PM EDT
[#3]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Signed, US Chamber of Commerce Dipshits. Tell me you haven't met Chavistas without telling me you haven't met Chavistas. I bet you also think the US is a "Proposition Nation". "Everybody who wants to be an American is, dur, hur, I luvs John McCain". But it's OK--you went to Colombia, once, so you know everything. PS--they don't want social mobility. They want "gibs". Link to Spanish language news sources that say otherwise. You won't, shit, you can't spell simple Spanish words correctly, but go ahead and lecture me on what they want and what they'll do. Dipshit. Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: We aren't talking about the top 5%-25%... we are talking about the bottom 5%-25%. You don't staff your top jobs with imported labor- for many different reasons... not just wages. Latin American labor is a great benefit to the US economy because it maintains a level of quality at the lower jobs while also keeping the wages for such jobs reasonable- many lower-job-employees that want healthcare and benefits and vacation are simply not being realistic or reasonable. We staff those jobs with Latin American labor and we get good services at good prices so that we can focus on upskilling and climbing the ladder of success. Likewise they are climbing as well- and they're coming for you! This is the American Way- every day we compete. That's why we have social mobility that isn't possible anywhere else in the world, and that's why the hardest workers come here to make a better life than then can have at home. Signed, US Chamber of Commerce Dipshits. Tell me you haven't met Chavistas without telling me you haven't met Chavistas. I bet you also think the US is a "Proposition Nation". "Everybody who wants to be an American is, dur, hur, I luvs John McCain". But it's OK--you went to Colombia, once, so you know everything. PS--they don't want social mobility. They want "gibs". Link to Spanish language news sources that say otherwise. You won't, shit, you can't spell simple Spanish words correctly, but go ahead and lecture me on what they want and what they'll do. Dipshit. As someone who has lived outside the checkpoints his whole life, I agree with Mr. MI66. |
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Posted: 5/23/2023 12:51:43 PM EDT
[#4]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Magic culture is akin to magic dirt. There are many worthless people born into American culture and many talented people born into other cultures. It is something anyone can observe for themselves. You are exactly 180 degrees off. You can observe it for yourself, both geographically and temporally. There is a consistency with culture, with Anglo-Saxon culture obtaining certain outcomes, Latin American culture obtaining different outcomes, Islamic Arab culture obtaining yet other outcomes. If you don't grasp this you are embracing ignorance. |
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Posted: 5/23/2023 12:55:09 PM EDT
[#5]
Quote HistoryQuoted: The problem here is assuming that one person is better than another solely by the virtue of the culture they are born into. The best person from an “inferior” culture is better than the worst person from a “superior” culture. That is why we place so much emphasis and importance on the individual. You fail to understand. It isn't about what individual is superior--it is that some cultures are superior to others. You can be an inferior person who has the benefit of superior culture. Or a superior person from an inferior culture. But you can't understand the world without understanding that some cultures produce superior outcomes. |
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Posted: 5/23/2023 12:58:34 PM EDT
[#6]
Quote HistoryQuoted: The law of averages applies. Yes, there are statistical outliers. That doesn’t change the fact that it’s a net loss for the country. There is a level of independence between individual and culture. An individual doesn't define a culture, and a culture doesn't define an individual. Culture has significant effects on a statistical scale based on factors that are insignificant on the individual level. |
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Posted: 5/23/2023 1:00:05 PM EDT
[#7]
Quote HistoryQuoted: The fact that people argue with this shows you how deeply rooted in emotion their arguments are. For one reason or another, reality makes them uncomfortable, so for them, it must be wrong. Just look at the use of the words "better" and "inferior" in that post. They're there on purpose, to elicit a reaction. Many Westerners bristle at the idea that some people are better or superior to others. Using the phrase "more likely to be successful" would be far more accurate, and would sidestep the issues of race and ethnicity, but wouldn't get the same response, so more evocative terms are used. There is a strong "all cultures are equal" narrative that has a strong emotional appeal to many. |
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Posted: 5/23/2023 1:04:15 PM EDT
[#8]
Quote HistoryQuoted: The fact that people argue with this shows you how deeply rooted in emotion their arguments are. For one reason or another, reality makes them uncomfortable, so for them, it must be wrong. Just look at the use of the words "better" and "inferior" in that post. They're there on purpose, to elicit a reaction. Many Westerners bristle at the idea that some people are better or superior to others. Using the phrase "more likely to be successful" would be far more accurate, and would sidestep the issues of race and ethnicity, but wouldn't get the same response, so more evocative terms are used. Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: Quoted:The problem here is assuming that one person is better than another solely by the virtue of the culture they are born into. The best person from an “inferior” culture is better than the worst person from a “superior” culture. That is why we place so much emphasis and importance on the individual. For one reason or another, reality makes them uncomfortable, so for them, it must be wrong. Just look at the use of the words "better" and "inferior" in that post. They're there on purpose, to elicit a reaction. Many Westerners bristle at the idea that some people are better or superior to others. Using the phrase "more likely to be successful" would be far more accurate, and would sidestep the issues of race and ethnicity, but wouldn't get the same response, so more evocative terms are used. I am not talking about race. There are plenty of white, non-American cultures that people consider inferior. |
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Posted: 5/23/2023 1:06:58 PM EDT
[#9]
Quote HistoryQuoted: You fail to understand. It isn't about what individual is superior--it is that some cultures are superior to others. You can be an inferior person who has the benefit of superior culture. Or a superior person from an inferior culture. But you can't understand the world without understanding that some cultures produce superior outcomes. Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: The problem here is assuming that one person is better than another solely by the virtue of the culture they are born into. The best person from an “inferior” culture is better than the worst person from a “superior” culture. That is why we place so much emphasis and importance on the individual. You fail to understand. It isn't about what individual is superior--it is that some cultures are superior to others. You can be an inferior person who has the benefit of superior culture. Or a superior person from an inferior culture. But you can't understand the world without understanding that some cultures produce superior outcomes. Regardless of whether some cultures produce superior outcomes “on average”, we are interested in the individual. We are always interested in the individual, because we hire, allow to immigrate, interact with individuals, not averages. The average becomes irrelevant when evaluating the individual, who may be outside of the average. A statistic on US average wealth includes both Elon Musk and the homeless man on the corner. If you rely on the average to determine Elon’s wealth you vastly underestimate it, if you rely on the average to determine the homeless man’s wealth you vastly overestimate it. |
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Posted: 5/23/2023 1:31:27 PM EDT
[#10]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Regardless of whether some cultures produce superior outcomes “on average”, we are interested in the individual. We are always interested in the individual, because we hire, allow to immigrate, interact with individuals, not averages. The average becomes irrelevant when evaluating the individual, who may be outside of the average. Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: Quoted: The problem here is assuming that one person is better than another solely by the virtue of the culture they are born into. The best person from an “inferior” culture is better than the worst person from a “superior” culture. That is why we place so much emphasis and importance on the individual. You fail to understand. It isn't about what individual is superior--it is that some cultures are superior to others. You can be an inferior person who has the benefit of superior culture. Or a superior person from an inferior culture. But you can't understand the world without understanding that some cultures produce superior outcomes. Regardless of whether some cultures produce superior outcomes “on average”, we are interested in the individual. We are always interested in the individual, because we hire, allow to immigrate, interact with individuals, not averages. The average becomes irrelevant when evaluating the individual, who may be outside of the average. You might have a point if the Dept. of Homeland Security wasn’t currently letting anybody who can get to the border and surrender to CBP into the country. However, they are, so you don’t. |
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Posted: 5/23/2023 1:32:34 PM EDT
[#11]
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Posted: 5/23/2023 1:41:12 PM EDT
[#12]
Quote HistoryQuoted: You might have a point if the Dept. of Homeland Security wasn’t currently letting anybody who can get to the border and surrender to CBP into the country. However, they are, so you don’t. Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: The problem here is assuming that one person is better than another solely by the virtue of the culture they are born into. The best person from an “inferior” culture is better than the worst person from a “superior” culture. That is why we place so much emphasis and importance on the individual. You fail to understand. It isn't about what individual is superior--it is that some cultures are superior to others. You can be an inferior person who has the benefit of superior culture. Or a superior person from an inferior culture. But you can't understand the world without understanding that some cultures produce superior outcomes. Regardless of whether some cultures produce superior outcomes “on average”, we are interested in the individual. We are always interested in the individual, because we hire, allow to immigrate, interact with individuals, not averages. The average becomes irrelevant when evaluating the individual, who may be outside of the average. You might have a point if the Dept. of Homeland Security wasn’t currently letting anybody who can get to the border and surrender to CBP into the country. However, they are, so you don’t. If you read up the thread, I’ve said that should be changed. That point is how this whole line of discussion started. I said, dont let just anyone in, let only exceptional individuals in. |
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Posted: 5/23/2023 1:42:39 PM EDT
[#13]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Regardless of whether some cultures produce superior outcomes “on average”, we are interested in the individual. We are always interested in the individual, because we hire, allow to immigrate, interact with individuals, not averages. The average becomes irrelevant when evaluating the individual, who may be outside of the average. A statistic on US average wealth includes both Elon Musk and the homeless man on the corner. If you rely on the average to determine Elon’s wealth you vastly underestimate it, if you rely on the average to determine the homeless man’s wealth you vastly overestimate it. We also should be interested in the culture. It is foolish to import large numbers of people from problematic cultures no matter how great they are as individuals. One specific example is Muslims, where there is issues with Islamic terror from 2nd and 3rd gen immigrants. The parents might have behaved well, their children and grandchildren then radicalize and engage in terror. Gad Saad, a Jew who fled Lebanon, has some videos on the import of Muslims to Western countries and the result when the population becomes large enough. To ignore the wider significance of culture and only focus on the individual is a type of blindness. |
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Posted: 5/23/2023 1:53:18 PM EDT
[#14]
Quote HistoryQuoted: We also should be interested in the culture. It is foolish to import large numbers of people from problematic cultures no matter how great they are as individuals. One specific example is Muslims, where there is issues with Islamic terror from 2nd and 3rd gen immigrants. The parents might have behaved well, their children and grandchildren then radicalize and engage in terror. Gad Saad, a Jew who fled Lebanon, has some videos on the import of Muslims to Western countries and the result when the population becomes large enough. To ignore the wider significance of culture and only focus on the individual is a type of blindness. Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: Regardless of whether some cultures produce superior outcomes “on average”, we are interested in the individual. We are always interested in the individual, because we hire, allow to immigrate, interact with individuals, not averages. The average becomes irrelevant when evaluating the individual, who may be outside of the average. A statistic on US average wealth includes both Elon Musk and the homeless man on the corner. If you rely on the average to determine Elon’s wealth you vastly underestimate it, if you rely on the average to determine the homeless man’s wealth you vastly overestimate it. We also should be interested in the culture. It is foolish to import large numbers of people from problematic cultures no matter how great they are as individuals. One specific example is Muslims, where there is issues with Islamic terror from 2nd and 3rd gen immigrants. The parents might have behaved well, their children and grandchildren then radicalize and engage in terror. Gad Saad, a Jew who fled Lebanon, has some videos on the import of Muslims to Western countries and the result when the population becomes large enough. To ignore the wider significance of culture and only focus on the individual is a type of blindness. See, I would say it is a type of blindness to only focus on the average and ignore the individual. Which is what I illustrated above. In such cases you are asking the homeless man to invest in your company, instead of Elon. |
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Posted: 5/23/2023 2:00:31 PM EDT
[#15]
Quote HistoryQuoted: We also should be interested in the culture. It is foolish to import large numbers of people from problematic cultures no matter how great they are as individuals. (SNIP) To ignore the wider significance of culture and only focus on the individual is a type of blindness. Or sabotage. Take your pick. |
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Posted: 5/23/2023 2:05:38 PM EDT
[#16]
Thirty years ago every time I was one the Cross Bronx there would be a half dozen people running through stop and go traffic trying to sell drinks, flowers etc. I guess we are going backwards as a society.
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Posted: 5/23/2023 2:06:49 PM EDT
[#17]
Quote HistoryQuoted: See, I would say it is a type of blindness to only focus on the average and ignore the individual. Which is what I illustrated above. In such cases you are asking the homeless man to invest in your company, instead of Elon. I haven't said anything about ignoring individuals. It depends on the context if you focus on the individual or the culture. If you are recruiting for an individual position you look at the individual. If you are looking at numbers of people that are statistically relevant you look at the culture. When discussing large scale immigration, it is the culture that matters. |
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Posted: 5/23/2023 2:12:40 PM EDT
[#18]
Quote HistoryQuoted: To think that one could fundamentally change the racial, ethnic, and cultural make-up of a country's population, without fundamentally changing the country, isn't blindness... it's lunacy. Or sabotage. Take your pick. There is a strong narrative to ignore the significance of culture, so as to not make anyone feel bad. It's been absorbed by many and constitutes a form of blindness. I'm giving the benefit of the doubt that he's simply blind and doesn't intend a fundamental transformation. If such a transformation is the intent, it's malicious. |
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Posted: 5/23/2023 2:14:42 PM EDT
[#19]
Quote HistoryQuoted: If you read up the thread, I’ve said that should be changed. That point is how this whole line of discussion started. I said, dont let just anyone in, let only exceptional individuals in. Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: The problem here is assuming that one person is better than another solely by the virtue of the culture they are born into. The best person from an “inferior” culture is better than the worst person from a “superior” culture. That is why we place so much emphasis and importance on the individual. You fail to understand. It isn't about what individual is superior--it is that some cultures are superior to others. You can be an inferior person who has the benefit of superior culture. Or a superior person from an inferior culture. But you can't understand the world without understanding that some cultures produce superior outcomes. Regardless of whether some cultures produce superior outcomes “on average”, we are interested in the individual. We are always interested in the individual, because we hire, allow to immigrate, interact with individuals, not averages. The average becomes irrelevant when evaluating the individual, who may be outside of the average. You might have a point if the Dept. of Homeland Security wasn’t currently letting anybody who can get to the border and surrender to CBP into the country. However, they are, so you don’t. If you read up the thread, I’ve said that should be changed. That point is how this whole line of discussion started. I said, dont let just anyone in, let only exceptional individuals in. No, this whole line of discussion started when you made this statement: “The concept of work is so unusual in America that it is thread worthy. That’s telling.” Which is quite literally a general statement about Americans strongly implying that they’re lazy. Several pages later, you’re arguing Americans should only consider the virtues of individual illegal aliens when deciding immigration policy. How convenient. |
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Posted: 5/23/2023 2:17:46 PM EDT
[#20]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Coming to your AO……Third world comes to you and doesn’t assimilate then drags you down to their level all while you work to pay for it. Would upvote if we had a button for it. |
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Posted: 5/23/2023 2:19:06 PM EDT
[#21]
Quote HistoryQuoted: No, this whole line of discussion started when you made this statement: “The concept of work is so unusual in America that it is thread worthy. That’s telling.” Which is quite literally a general statement about Americans strongly implying that they’re lazy. Several pages later, you’re arguing Americans should only consider the virtues of individual illegal aliens when deciding immigration policy. How convenient. Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: The problem here is assuming that one person is better than another solely by the virtue of the culture they are born into. The best person from an “inferior” culture is better than the worst person from a “superior” culture. That is why we place so much emphasis and importance on the individual. You fail to understand. It isn't about what individual is superior--it is that some cultures are superior to others. You can be an inferior person who has the benefit of superior culture. Or a superior person from an inferior culture. But you can't understand the world without understanding that some cultures produce superior outcomes. Regardless of whether some cultures produce superior outcomes “on average”, we are interested in the individual. We are always interested in the individual, because we hire, allow to immigrate, interact with individuals, not averages. The average becomes irrelevant when evaluating the individual, who may be outside of the average. You might have a point if the Dept. of Homeland Security wasn’t currently letting anybody who can get to the border and surrender to CBP into the country. However, they are, so you don’t. If you read up the thread, I’ve said that should be changed. That point is how this whole line of discussion started. I said, dont let just anyone in, let only exceptional individuals in. No, this whole line of discussion started when you made this statement: “The concept of work is so unusual in America that it is thread worthy. That’s telling.” Which is quite literally a general statement about Americans strongly implying that they’re lazy. Several pages later, you’re arguing Americans should only consider the virtues of individual illegal aliens when deciding immigration policy. How convenient. Read a little further until you get to my comments about the 5%. That is where this part of the conversation starts. |
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Posted: 5/23/2023 2:20:34 PM EDT
[#22]
Quote HistoryQuoted: I haven't said anything about ignoring individuals. It depends on the context if you focus on the individual or the culture. If you are recruiting for an individual position you look at the individual. If you are looking at numbers of people that are statistically relevant you look at the culture. When discussing large scale immigration, it is the culture that matters. Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: See, I would say it is a type of blindness to only focus on the average and ignore the individual. Which is what I illustrated above. In such cases you are asking the homeless man to invest in your company, instead of Elon. I haven't said anything about ignoring individuals. It depends on the context if you focus on the individual or the culture. If you are recruiting for an individual position you look at the individual. If you are looking at numbers of people that are statistically relevant you look at the culture. When discussing large scale immigration, it is the culture that matters. Immigration should not be “large scale”. It should be deliberate, where only the best and brightest are selected. I’ve shared my own experience moving to other countries. Those countries were very selective. The US should be as well. |
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Posted: 5/23/2023 2:23:43 PM EDT
[#23]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Read a little further until you get to my comments about the 5%. Which are exactly the folks who should never be permitted to work in the US. |
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Posted: 5/23/2023 2:25:24 PM EDT
[#24]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Which are exactly the folks who should never be permitted to work in the US. Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: Read a little further until you get to my comments about the 5%. Which are exactly the folks who should never be permitted to work in the US. I’d be curious to hear your thoughts on that if you want to explain. |
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Posted: 5/23/2023 2:25:37 PM EDT
[#25]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Read a little further until you get to my comments about the 5%. Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: The problem here is assuming that one person is better than another solely by the virtue of the culture they are born into. The best person from an “inferior” culture is better than the worst person from a “superior” culture. That is why we place so much emphasis and importance on the individual. You fail to understand. It isn't about what individual is superior--it is that some cultures are superior to others. You can be an inferior person who has the benefit of superior culture. Or a superior person from an inferior culture. But you can't understand the world without understanding that some cultures produce superior outcomes. Regardless of whether some cultures produce superior outcomes “on average”, we are interested in the individual. We are always interested in the individual, because we hire, allow to immigrate, interact with individuals, not averages. The average becomes irrelevant when evaluating the individual, who may be outside of the average. You might have a point if the Dept. of Homeland Security wasn’t currently letting anybody who can get to the border and surrender to CBP into the country. However, they are, so you don’t. If you read up the thread, I’ve said that should be changed. That point is how this whole line of discussion started. I said, dont let just anyone in, let only exceptional individuals in. No, this whole line of discussion started when you made this statement: “The concept of work is so unusual in America that it is thread worthy. That’s telling.” Which is quite literally a general statement about Americans strongly implying that they’re lazy. Several pages later, you’re arguing Americans should only consider the virtues of individual illegal aliens when deciding immigration policy. How convenient. Read a little further until you get to my comments about the 5%. I’m not any more interested in your fantasy immigration system now than I was then. |
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Posted: 5/23/2023 2:26:35 PM EDT
[#26]
Quote HistoryQuoted: I’m not any more interested in your fantasy immigration system now than I was then. Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: The problem here is assuming that one person is better than another solely by the virtue of the culture they are born into. The best person from an “inferior” culture is better than the worst person from a “superior” culture. That is why we place so much emphasis and importance on the individual. You fail to understand. It isn't about what individual is superior--it is that some cultures are superior to others. You can be an inferior person who has the benefit of superior culture. Or a superior person from an inferior culture. But you can't understand the world without understanding that some cultures produce superior outcomes. Regardless of whether some cultures produce superior outcomes “on average”, we are interested in the individual. We are always interested in the individual, because we hire, allow to immigrate, interact with individuals, not averages. The average becomes irrelevant when evaluating the individual, who may be outside of the average. You might have a point if the Dept. of Homeland Security wasn’t currently letting anybody who can get to the border and surrender to CBP into the country. However, they are, so you don’t. If you read up the thread, I’ve said that should be changed. That point is how this whole line of discussion started. I said, dont let just anyone in, let only exceptional individuals in. No, this whole line of discussion started when you made this statement: “The concept of work is so unusual in America that it is thread worthy. That’s telling.” Which is quite literally a general statement about Americans strongly implying that they’re lazy. Several pages later, you’re arguing Americans should only consider the virtues of individual illegal aliens when deciding immigration policy. How convenient. Read a little further until you get to my comments about the 5%. I’m not any more interested in your fantasy immigration system now than I was then. Ok, I’m not making you discuss this with me. You are choosing to reply. But I’m not your supervisor. |
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Posted: 5/23/2023 2:29:50 PM EDT
[#27]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Regardless of whether some cultures produce superior outcomes “on average”, we are interested in the individual. We are always interested in the individual, because we hire, allow to immigrate, interact with individuals, not averages. The average becomes irrelevant when evaluating the individual, who may be outside of the average. A statistic on US average wealth includes both Elon Musk and the homeless man on the corner. If you rely on the average to determine Elon’s wealth you vastly underestimate it, if you rely on the average to determine the homeless man’s wealth you vastly overestimate it. Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: Quoted: The problem here is assuming that one person is better than another solely by the virtue of the culture they are born into. The best person from an “inferior” culture is better than the worst person from a “superior” culture. That is why we place so much emphasis and importance on the individual. You fail to understand. It isn't about what individual is superior--it is that some cultures are superior to others. You can be an inferior person who has the benefit of superior culture. Or a superior person from an inferior culture. But you can't understand the world without understanding that some cultures produce superior outcomes. Regardless of whether some cultures produce superior outcomes “on average”, we are interested in the individual. We are always interested in the individual, because we hire, allow to immigrate, interact with individuals, not averages. The average becomes irrelevant when evaluating the individual, who may be outside of the average. A statistic on US average wealth includes both Elon Musk and the homeless man on the corner. If you rely on the average to determine Elon’s wealth you vastly underestimate it, if you rely on the average to determine the homeless man’s wealth you vastly overestimate it. Except Australia disproves that. To this day 60-70% of the population are descended from penal colonists, people so bad they were shipped across the world to get them out of England and its colonies. If your theory was correct then Aus would be one big violent ghetto. Everything moves towards the mean. In this case it was a good thing, raising the bar, in most other cases, though, like what you're talking about, it isnt. |
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Posted: 5/23/2023 2:29:51 PM EDT
[#28]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Ok, I’m not making you discuss this with me. You are choosing to reply. But I’m not your supervisor. Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: The problem here is assuming that one person is better than another solely by the virtue of the culture they are born into. The best person from an “inferior” culture is better than the worst person from a “superior” culture. That is why we place so much emphasis and importance on the individual. You fail to understand. It isn't about what individual is superior--it is that some cultures are superior to others. You can be an inferior person who has the benefit of superior culture. Or a superior person from an inferior culture. But you can't understand the world without understanding that some cultures produce superior outcomes. Regardless of whether some cultures produce superior outcomes “on average”, we are interested in the individual. We are always interested in the individual, because we hire, allow to immigrate, interact with individuals, not averages. The average becomes irrelevant when evaluating the individual, who may be outside of the average. You might have a point if the Dept. of Homeland Security wasn’t currently letting anybody who can get to the border and surrender to CBP into the country. However, they are, so you don’t. If you read up the thread, I’ve said that should be changed. That point is how this whole line of discussion started. I said, dont let just anyone in, let only exceptional individuals in. No, this whole line of discussion started when you made this statement: “The concept of work is so unusual in America that it is thread worthy. That’s telling.” Which is quite literally a general statement about Americans strongly implying that they’re lazy. Several pages later, you’re arguing Americans should only consider the virtues of individual illegal aliens when deciding immigration policy. How convenient. Read a little further until you get to my comments about the 5%. I’m not any more interested in your fantasy immigration system now than I was then. Ok, I’m not making you discuss this with me. You are choosing to reply. But I’m not your supervisor. That I am, but that will stop now. |
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Posted: 5/23/2023 2:34:25 PM EDT
[#29]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Except Australia disproves that. To this day 60-70% of the population are descended from penal colonists, people so bad they were shipped across the world to get them out of England and its colonies. If your theory was correct then Aus would be one big violent ghetto. Everything moves towards the mean. In this case it was a good thing, raising the bar, in most other cases, though, like what you're talking about, it isnt. Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: The problem here is assuming that one person is better than another solely by the virtue of the culture they are born into. The best person from an “inferior” culture is better than the worst person from a “superior” culture. That is why we place so much emphasis and importance on the individual. You fail to understand. It isn't about what individual is superior--it is that some cultures are superior to others. You can be an inferior person who has the benefit of superior culture. Or a superior person from an inferior culture. But you can't understand the world without understanding that some cultures produce superior outcomes. Regardless of whether some cultures produce superior outcomes “on average”, we are interested in the individual. We are always interested in the individual, because we hire, allow to immigrate, interact with individuals, not averages. The average becomes irrelevant when evaluating the individual, who may be outside of the average. A statistic on US average wealth includes both Elon Musk and the homeless man on the corner. If you rely on the average to determine Elon’s wealth you vastly underestimate it, if you rely on the average to determine the homeless man’s wealth you vastly overestimate it. Except Australia disproves that. To this day 60-70% of the population are descended from penal colonists, people so bad they were shipped across the world to get them out of England and its colonies. If your theory was correct then Aus would be one big violent ghetto. Everything moves towards the mean. In this case it was a good thing, raising the bar, in most other cases, though, like what you're talking about, it isnt. Just to make sure I understand, are you saying that smart parents don’t produce smart kids and that dumb parents don’t produce dumb kids? That given enough time, everyone reverts to the mean regardless of their lineage? This is not me agreeing or disagreeing, but just making sure I understand your point correctly. |
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Posted: 5/23/2023 2:37:30 PM EDT
[#30]
Quote HistoryQuoted: I don’t believe pandering is necessary. The “American Dream” has brought immigrants to America for as long as we have been a country. Even before the phrase “American Dream” was coined. It’s this vision, and not free shit that wins hearts and minds. GD will disagree, but history tells us otherwise. Welfare for immigrants did not even exist in the historical periods in which immigration was heaviest. Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: Quoted: I can see that. But we don’t seem to be enforcing border controls. So if they are coming in anyway, it makes sense to sell as many of them on the Republican Party as possible. Or else lock it down, which hasn’t happened. The worst of both worlds is to let them in, and drive them into the Democrat’s arms. Can't out pander Democrats. I don’t believe pandering is necessary. The “American Dream” has brought immigrants to America for as long as we have been a country. Even before the phrase “American Dream” was coined. It’s this vision, and not free shit that wins hearts and minds. GD will disagree, but history tells us otherwise. Welfare for immigrants did not even exist in the historical periods in which immigration was heaviest. Get rid of welfare now and I would favor more open immigration. As it stands it is a suicide pact for our country. |
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Posted: 5/23/2023 2:39:30 PM EDT
[#31]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Immigration should not be “large scale”. It should be deliberate, where only the best and brightest are selected. I’ve shared my own experience moving to other countries. Those countries were very selective. The US should be as well. It is large scale, however. That's what we are discussing. It is important to understand the impact of large scale immigration, since that's what the debate is about. If you have immigration on a small enough scale you can have effective assimilation, and the culture issue should be manageable. |
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Posted: 5/23/2023 2:40:13 PM EDT
[#32]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Get rid of welfare now and I would favor more open immigration. As it stands it is a suicide pact for our country. Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: I can see that. But we don’t seem to be enforcing border controls. So if they are coming in anyway, it makes sense to sell as many of them on the Republican Party as possible. Or else lock it down, which hasn’t happened. The worst of both worlds is to let them in, and drive them into the Democrat’s arms. Can't out pander Democrats. I don’t believe pandering is necessary. The “American Dream” has brought immigrants to America for as long as we have been a country. Even before the phrase “American Dream” was coined. It’s this vision, and not free shit that wins hearts and minds. GD will disagree, but history tells us otherwise. Welfare for immigrants did not even exist in the historical periods in which immigration was heaviest. Get rid of welfare now and I would favor more open immigration. As it stands it is a suicide pact for our country. Agreed, welfare and open immigration cannot exist together. |
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Posted: 5/23/2023 2:43:58 PM EDT
[#33]
Quote HistoryQuoted: It is large scale, however. That's what we are discussing. It is important to understand the impact of large scale immigration, since that's what the debate is about. If you have immigration on a small enough scale you can have effective assimilation, and the culture issue should be manageable. Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: Immigration should not be “large scale”. It should be deliberate, where only the best and brightest are selected. I’ve shared my own experience moving to other countries. Those countries were very selective. The US should be as well. It is large scale, however. That's what we are discussing. It is important to understand the impact of large scale immigration, since that's what the debate is about. If you have immigration on a small enough scale you can have effective assimilation, and the culture issue should be manageable. Perhaps we are talking past each other. I have consistently been referring to a system in which we take only the best and brightest individuals and saying that we should replace our current system with that. If you are only discussing our current system with no changes, then we are discussing apples and oranges, which is not unusual on forums. |
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Posted: 5/23/2023 2:50:02 PM EDT
[#34]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Just to make sure I understand, are you saying that smart parents don’t produce smart kids and that dumb parents don’t produce dumb kids? That given enough time, everyone reverts to the mean regardless of their lineage? This is not me agreeing or disagreeing, but just making sure I understand your point correctly. Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: The problem here is assuming that one person is better than another solely by the virtue of the culture they are born into. The best person from an “inferior” culture is better than the worst person from a “superior” culture. That is why we place so much emphasis and importance on the individual. You fail to understand. It isn't about what individual is superior--it is that some cultures are superior to others. You can be an inferior person who has the benefit of superior culture. Or a superior person from an inferior culture. But you can't understand the world without understanding that some cultures produce superior outcomes. Regardless of whether some cultures produce superior outcomes “on average”, we are interested in the individual. We are always interested in the individual, because we hire, allow to immigrate, interact with individuals, not averages. The average becomes irrelevant when evaluating the individual, who may be outside of the average. A statistic on US average wealth includes both Elon Musk and the homeless man on the corner. If you rely on the average to determine Elon’s wealth you vastly underestimate it, if you rely on the average to determine the homeless man’s wealth you vastly overestimate it. Except Australia disproves that. To this day 60-70% of the population are descended from penal colonists, people so bad they were shipped across the world to get them out of England and its colonies. If your theory was correct then Aus would be one big violent ghetto. Everything moves towards the mean. In this case it was a good thing, raising the bar, in most other cases, though, like what you're talking about, it isnt. Just to make sure I understand, are you saying that smart parents don’t produce smart kids and that dumb parents don’t produce dumb kids? That given enough time, everyone reverts to the mean regardless of their lineage? This is not me agreeing or disagreeing, but just making sure I understand your point correctly. Thats how it ends up bearing out. Another data point is that first generation immigrants in the US often have lower crime rates, but second generation and later have a crime rate in line with their parent demographic. I'd guess that the numbers involved are too high to have the eugenic effect you'd expect from what you're talking about, the selection isnt that rigorous, or there needs to be multiple generations of selective breeding to produce a more desirable outcome. ETA- saw your post above, IN THEROY, it might work, in practice I would have very serious doubts about it. |
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Posted: 5/23/2023 2:52:04 PM EDT
[#35]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Perhaps we are talking past each other. I have consistently been referring to a system in which we take only the best and brightest individuals and saying that we should replace our current system with that. If you are only discussing our current system with no changes, then we are discussing apples and oranges, which is not unusual on forums. I'm specifically focused with the issues we are faced with our current system with uncontrolled immigration. Realistically there is no way we are going to a "best and brightest" system in the current political system. At most we might slow the influx. So I'm focused on what the impact will be of what is going to happen and has already happened in large measure. |
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Posted: 5/23/2023 2:55:41 PM EDT
[#36]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Thats how it ends up bearing out. Another data point is that first generation immigrants in the US often have lower crime rates, but second generation and later have a crime rate in line with their parent demographic. I'd guess that the numbers involved are too high to have the eugenic effect you'd expect from what you're talking about, the selection isnt that rigorous, or there needs to be multiple generations of selective breeding to produce a more desirable outcome. Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: The problem here is assuming that one person is better than another solely by the virtue of the culture they are born into. The best person from an “inferior” culture is better than the worst person from a “superior” culture. That is why we place so much emphasis and importance on the individual. You fail to understand. It isn't about what individual is superior--it is that some cultures are superior to others. You can be an inferior person who has the benefit of superior culture. Or a superior person from an inferior culture. But you can't understand the world without understanding that some cultures produce superior outcomes. Regardless of whether some cultures produce superior outcomes “on average”, we are interested in the individual. We are always interested in the individual, because we hire, allow to immigrate, interact with individuals, not averages. The average becomes irrelevant when evaluating the individual, who may be outside of the average. A statistic on US average wealth includes both Elon Musk and the homeless man on the corner. If you rely on the average to determine Elon’s wealth you vastly underestimate it, if you rely on the average to determine the homeless man’s wealth you vastly overestimate it. Except Australia disproves that. To this day 60-70% of the population are descended from penal colonists, people so bad they were shipped across the world to get them out of England and its colonies. If your theory was correct then Aus would be one big violent ghetto. Everything moves towards the mean. In this case it was a good thing, raising the bar, in most other cases, though, like what you're talking about, it isnt. Just to make sure I understand, are you saying that smart parents don’t produce smart kids and that dumb parents don’t produce dumb kids? That given enough time, everyone reverts to the mean regardless of their lineage? This is not me agreeing or disagreeing, but just making sure I understand your point correctly. Thats how it ends up bearing out. Another data point is that first generation immigrants in the US often have lower crime rates, but second generation and later have a crime rate in line with their parent demographic. I'd guess that the numbers involved are too high to have the eugenic effect you'd expect from what you're talking about, the selection isnt that rigorous, or there needs to be multiple generations of selective breeding to produce a more desirable outcome. Following the Australia example, would you say American would “revert to the mean” even if we had closed it to immigration entirely 100 years ago? Like a natural regression to the human mean? It’s interesting. On first blush, I don’t think I agree, but it’s not something I’ve looked into. But appreciate you bringing a new perspective. |
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Posted: 5/23/2023 3:15:02 PM EDT
[#37]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Life in the United States will continue to get BETTER and BETTER. I'll even say "Gracias" and leave a nice tip- not even at a Mexican restaurant. Do you even know about Latinos? They are, in large part, conservative, smart, hardworking, religious, and friendly- specifically the ones that make the trek. Does life look like it''s getting better for most? Wait until these Latinos start to outnumber you in your area, you might reconsider. Even I've had a lot of problems with certain ones. |
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Posted: 5/23/2023 3:18:55 PM EDT
[#38]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Get rid of welfare now and I would favor more open immigration. |
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Posted: 5/23/2023 3:21:30 PM EDT
[#39]
Quote HistoryQuoted: I'm specifically focused with the issues we are faced with our current system with uncontrolled immigration. Realistically there is no way we are going to a "best and brightest" system in the current political system. At most we might slow the influx. So I'm focused on what the impact will be of what is going to happen and has already happened in large measure. Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: Perhaps we are talking past each other. I have consistently been referring to a system in which we take only the best and brightest individuals and saying that we should replace our current system with that. If you are only discussing our current system with no changes, then we are discussing apples and oranges, which is not unusual on forums. I'm specifically focused with the issues we are faced with our current system with uncontrolled immigration. Realistically there is no way we are going to a "best and brightest" system in the current political system. At most we might slow the influx. So I'm focused on what the impact will be of what is going to happen and has already happened in large measure. Ok. So assuming we are working within the confines of the status quo, what is an interesting topic for our virtual barstools discussion? The future impact of policy to date? |
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Posted: 5/23/2023 3:21:31 PM EDT
[#40]
Quote HistoryQuoted: True. I'll bow out. |
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Posted: 5/23/2023 3:26:52 PM EDT
[#41]
Quote HistoryQuoted: At least they're out there trying to make a buck. Who hasn't had an urgent need for a bag of oranges, or a slushie, but going to the store was too much of a hassle?  and they don't charge sales tax! (or pass it on to .gov)
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Posted: 5/23/2023 3:33:10 PM EDT
[#42]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Mexico is in North America. Just sayin' Hm. Those aren’t Mexicans Facial features says .. venezuela What do I win ? |
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Posted: 5/23/2023 4:27:33 PM EDT
[#43]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Signed, US Chamber of Commerce Dipshits. ... You won't, shit, you can't spell simple Spanish words correctly, but go ahead and lecture me on what they want and what they'll do. Dipshit. LOL- what are you like some Traphouse/ DB-Left guy, but different? You even worked McCain into it... which was nuts, but confirmed something that I've been suspecting all along- do you guys hate America, our values, culture, and heroes and want to drag us all down? What kind of messaging did you consume that led you down this path, and made you this way? (I haven't written anything in Spanish either.) |
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Posted: 5/23/2023 4:29:19 PM EDT
[#44]
Quoted: Shades of Mexico City https://nypost.com/2023/05/20/migrants-with-babies-selling-mangoes-on-dangerous-nyc-roads/  
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Posted: 5/23/2023 4:33:04 PM EDT
[#45]
Quote HistoryQuoted: LOL- what are you like some Traphouse/ DB-Left guy, but different? You even worked McCain into it... which was nuts, but confirmed something that I've been suspecting all along- do you guys hate America, our values, culture, and heroes and want to drag us all down? What kind of messaging did you consume that led you down this path, and made you this way? (I haven't written anything in Spanish either.) Sure you did, you tried to write "indigenista" earlier but screwed that up. Like I said, Chamber of Commerce bullshit coupled with "I go to Colombia sometimes and they seem OK to me" Republican gibberish. I posted my background earlier, read it, or not, doesn't matter to me. |
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Posted: 5/23/2023 4:37:38 PM EDT
[#46]
Quote HistoryQuoted: I’d be curious to hear your thoughts on that if you want to explain. The system should be designed so that all the pressure it creates pulls Americans UP towards higher education, higher skilled jobs, and better pay. The lower wage jobs in the economy should ALL be staffed by green card holders- with a path to citizenship and incentives for participating in the process. Advanced Academics too- should only be for native born Americans. There should be easier admission standards and lower barriers for guys who say "I want to be a doctor!" and then successive cuts to distill down only the best qualified candidates through attrition. The guys who fall off from higher prestige (higher wage) positions should fit in on the ladder somewhere between your top 5% and my bottom 5%... and there will be a lot of them who do. There will be shame and dishonor, but it won't be so bad, because it won't be so uncommon. The increased competition in academia and the job market will spur a new age of innovation in AI/ML, Green Energy, Medicine, etc... and the corps of legit, on-record foreign labor will deliver high quality low cost services. ...and the greatest Civilization that ever was will only get BETTER, and the gap between us and everyone else will increase even further. It's a competitive world. |
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Posted: 5/23/2023 4:45:58 PM EDT
[#47]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Depends on where it's from. Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: Get rid of welfare now and I would favor more open immigration. It would mostly sort itself out if there were no freebies and they knew it. |
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Posted: 5/23/2023 4:46:50 PM EDT
[#48]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Sure you did, you tried to write "indigenista" earlier but screwed that up. Like I said, Chamber of Commerce bullshit coupled with "I go to Colombia sometimes and they seem OK to me" Republican gibberish. I posted my background earlier, read it, or not, doesn't matter to me. Oh, I said indigenos instead of indigenas... indigenista would be like "indianist" or indigenous enthusiast. I am baffled by "Chamber of Commerce" too... I've never in my entire life heard someone use Chamber of Commerce in a slanderous our insulting way before. Don't you want strong American businesses and increased prosperity?? Maybe that's not what people want anymore???? I guess that's just where this country is at- I can absolutely picture one of the Rooskie sympathizers saying- "You oppose neo-Soviet violent expansion? Well isn't that some Department of Defense bullshit!!" LOL- I'll take it!!!!! And I don't go to Colombia sometimes- I go to Colombia ALL the times, parce! |
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Posted: 5/23/2023 4:48:11 PM EDT
[#49]
Quote HistoryQuoted: The system should be designed so that all the pressure it creates pulls Americans UP towards higher education, higher skilled jobs, and better pay. The lower wage jobs in the economy should ALL be staffed by green card holders- with a path to citizenship and incentives for participating in the process. Advanced Academics too- should only be for native born Americans. There should be easier admission standards and lower barriers for guys who say "I want to be a doctor!" and then successive cuts to distill down only the best qualified candidates through attrition. The guys who fall off from higher prestige (higher wage) positions should fit in on the ladder somewhere between your top 5% and my bottom 5%... and there will be a lot of them who do. There will be shame and dishonor, but it won't be so bad, because it won't be so uncommon. The increased competition in academia and the job market will spur a new age of innovation in AI/ML, Green Energy, Medicine, etc... and the corps of legit, on-record foreign labor will deliver high quality low cost services. ...and the greatest Civilization that ever was will only get BETTER, and the gap between us and everyone else will increase even further. It's a competitive world. Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: I’d be curious to hear your thoughts on that if you want to explain. The system should be designed so that all the pressure it creates pulls Americans UP towards higher education, higher skilled jobs, and better pay. The lower wage jobs in the economy should ALL be staffed by green card holders- with a path to citizenship and incentives for participating in the process. Advanced Academics too- should only be for native born Americans. There should be easier admission standards and lower barriers for guys who say "I want to be a doctor!" and then successive cuts to distill down only the best qualified candidates through attrition. The guys who fall off from higher prestige (higher wage) positions should fit in on the ladder somewhere between your top 5% and my bottom 5%... and there will be a lot of them who do. There will be shame and dishonor, but it won't be so bad, because it won't be so uncommon. The increased competition in academia and the job market will spur a new age of innovation in AI/ML, Green Energy, Medicine, etc... and the corps of legit, on-record foreign labor will deliver high quality low cost services. ...and the greatest Civilization that ever was will only get BETTER, and the gap between us and everyone else will increase even further. It's a competitive world. Interesting, thanks for explaining. It sounds like you believe improvement happens faster in a closed system. Meaning, the US advances faster if we don’t take in additional talent than if we do. I can see certain instances where that might be the case, but they mostly relate to people tripping over one another. Colloquially, “too many cooks spoil the soup”. But my experience is that generally the opposite of what you describe. There is a challenge to getting it right though. |
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Posted: 5/23/2023 4:49:49 PM EDT
[#50]
Quote HistoryQuoted: It would mostly sort itself out if there were no freebies and they knew it. Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: Quoted: Get rid of welfare now and I would favor more open immigration. It would mostly sort itself out if there were no freebies and they knew it. I would encourage everyone to read or watch Milton Friedman on the subject. I won’t post a video, but they are readily available. |
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