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Posted: 2/22/2024 10:48:58 AM EDT
[#1]
Shit, if I could focus on the dot then I wouldnt need a dot to begin with LOL
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Posted: 2/22/2024 2:51:35 PM EDT
[#2]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Took a combat pistol training course about ten years ago using a G19 w/ RMR. At the beginning of the class, one of the instructors said "by the end of the day, we'll have your rounds going wherever you look." After a day of shooting four hundred rounds, in many different scenarios, it became instinctive, whether one in the class was using red dots or irons, and thoughtful aiming was not needed. The human brain is capable of doing all the ballistic calculations, given enough repetitive practice. There in lies the key -- rounds down range, with a disciplined, building, regime in mind. Going out on a Saturday and shooting a mag or two at a paper target at ten yards is a pretty much a waste of time for improving skill. Training classes are incredibly beneficial, and for me, coupled with competition shooting every week in 3-gun and pistol steel matches, makes one a good pistolier. In the words of The Great One, "Aiming is useless."  https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=li0rGtXh23IAt least only Leatham’s opening statement is clickbait (and literally not his point). |
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Posted: 2/22/2024 2:59:33 PM EDT
[#3]
Quote HistoryQuoted: At least only Leatham's opening statement is clickbait (and literally not his point). |
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Posted: 2/22/2024 3:02:39 PM EDT
[#4]
Quote HistoryQuoted: But it's not. Aiming is useless and is explained in the first sixty seconds of the video.  That isn't his point. He is saying learn to pull the trigger without moving the gun BEFORE working on your aiming scheme. It's literally the core of good pistol shooting and why dry fire is so important. Stoeger hammers the same thing home. Pull the trigger without moving the gun. |
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Posted: 2/22/2024 3:06:18 PM EDT
[#5]
Are we watching the same video? Aiming is useless if one hasn't gotten the other core fundamental stuff right. What is the first thing many learn when new to firearms? Aiming. It should be last on the list.
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Posted: 2/22/2024 3:08:42 PM EDT
[#6]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Are we watching the same video? Aiming is useless if one hasn't gotten the other core fundamental stuff right. What is the first thing many learn when new to firearms? Aiming. It should be last on the list. You're talking in circles. A good grip and proper trigger pull are useless if you are not aiming the weapon. See how that works? You work on everything at the same time. A typical dry fire session will mix aiming in with plenty of other things. Furthermore you linked the video after claiming that you can point shoot anything without aiming after a measly 400 rounds of live fire. So, that's the context we are taking you in. |
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Posted: 2/22/2024 3:11:13 PM EDT
[#7]
Quote HistoryQuoted: But it's not. Aiming is useless and is explained in the first sixty seconds of the video. Wrong. It’s useless without other skills. That’s what _he_says. |
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Posted: 2/22/2024 7:44:15 PM EDT
[#8]
I have to go fix my OZ9. My Vickers slide stop sheared off after lunch today. I finished the day with my G19 P80. I'll come back later with a AAR for the first day.
Here's a video they shot today at the class I was attending that's on Ben's youtube. Learning to use the power of Vision Fuckus |
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Posted: 2/22/2024 9:35:29 PM EDT
[#9]
There really was no warm up. We immediately went into drills covering vision, dot awareness/focus, dot confirmation and when it applies, doubles, transitions, shot speed based on complexity and/or distance factors, etc. It was a ton of well thought out information that while it's a "fundamentals" course, is fairly advanced in its concepts. But Ben and Joel make it easy to understand and it's pretty straight forward once you get the hang of everything. Out of around 17-18 in the class I think there were 2 with iron sights, the rest were dots. Everybody but three of us were competition shooters or had competition rigs. You really get pushed on your performance. I had positive feedback from both Ben and Joel, so that was good. Shot about 550 rounds today. The Vickers Tactical slide stop sheared off on my OZ9 and it was out of commission for the last couple of hours. It's fixed and should be GTG for tomorrow. This class is coming at just the right time for me. I shoot well, but struggle to find ways to setup my dry fire practice in order to challenge myself and improve. This class is helping me determine where my weaknesses are and come up with ways to train them. Looking forward to tomorrow.
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Posted: 2/22/2024 10:02:34 PM EDT
[#10]
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Posted: 2/22/2024 10:15:31 PM EDT
[#11]
Quote HistoryQuoted: There really was no warm up. We immediately went into drills covering vision, dot awareness/focus, dot confirmation and when it applies, doubles, transitions, shot speed based on complexity and/or distance factors, etc. It was a ton of well thought out information that while it's a "fundamentals" course, is fairly advanced in its concepts. But Ben and Joel make it easy to understand and it's pretty straight forward once you get the hang of everything. Out of around 17-18 in the class I think there were 2 with iron sights, the rest were dots. Everybody but three of us were competition shooters or had competition rigs. You really get pushed on your performance. I had positive feedback from both Ben and Joel, so that was good. Shot about 550 rounds today. The Vickers Tactical slide stop sheared off on my OZ9 and it was out of commission for the last couple of hours. It's fixed and should be GTG for tomorrow. This class is coming at just the right time for me. I shoot well, but struggle to find ways to setup my dry fire practice in order to challenge myself and improve. This class is helping me determine where my weaknesses are and come up with ways to train them. Looking forward to tomorrow. Good to hear! We are having Steve Anderson at our range in May for a class. I am debating whether or not to take it. |
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Posted: 2/22/2024 10:19:31 PM EDT
[#12]
Quote HistoryQuoted: There really was no warm up. We immediately went into drills covering vision, dot awareness/focus, dot confirmation and when it applies, doubles, transitions, shot speed based on complexity and/or distance factors, etc. It was a ton of well thought out information that while it's a "fundamentals" course, is fairly advanced in its concepts. But Ben and Joel make it easy to understand and it's pretty straight forward once you get the hang of everything. Out of around 17-18 in the class I think there were 2 with iron sights, the rest were dots. Everybody but three of us were competition shooters or had competition rigs. You really get pushed on your performance. I had positive feedback from both Ben and Joel, so that was good. Shot about 550 rounds today. The Vickers Tactical slide stop sheared off on my OZ9 and it was out of commission for the last couple of hours. It's fixed and should be GTG for tomorrow. This class is coming at just the right time for me. I shoot well, but struggle to find ways to setup my dry fire practice in order to challenge myself and improve. This class is helping me determine where my weaknesses are and come up with ways to train them. Looking forward to tomorrow. That's awesome! |
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Posted: 2/22/2024 10:20:10 PM EDT
[#13]
Quote HistoryQuoted: There really was no warm up. We immediately went into drills covering vision, dot awareness/focus, dot confirmation and when it applies, doubles, transitions, shot speed based on complexity and/or distance factors, etc. It was a ton of well thought out information that while it's a "fundamentals" course, is fairly advanced in its concepts. But Ben and Joel make it easy to understand and it's pretty straight forward once you get the hang of everything. Out of around 17-18 in the class I think there were 2 with iron sights, the rest were dots. Everybody but three of us were competition shooters or had competition rigs. You really get pushed on your performance. I had positive feedback from both Ben and Joel, so that was good. Shot about 550 rounds today. The Vickers Tactical slide stop sheared off on my OZ9 and it was out of commission for the last couple of hours. It's fixed and should be GTG for tomorrow. This class is coming at just the right time for me. I shoot well, but struggle to find ways to setup my dry fire practice in order to challenge myself and improve. This class is helping me determine where my weaknesses are and come up with ways to train them. Looking forward to tomorrow. I just started shooting uspsa this year, hopefully I can get a year and train with him next year. Sounds like a great class. Jealous! |
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Posted: 2/22/2024 10:30:41 PM EDT
[#14]
Quote HistoryQuoted: No man, just didn’t want to get into a pissing match with you. Not my thing. I am a terrible internet user. My issue is when the dot goes down and not having irons. Get a better dot that doesn’t go down |
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Posted: 2/22/2024 10:37:02 PM EDT
[#15]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Very informative video as I contemplate transitioning to a RDO.  They even make optics ready 1911s now if that’s your hold up |
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Posted: 2/23/2024 8:14:28 AM EDT
[#16]
Quote HistoryQuoted: When shooting, you must always take into account light, and ocular-oriented, kinetic, emotive, responses. Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: How can i know he's right if he didn't cite some academic studies and say things like "the angular velocity of your eccentrically contracting occular muscles obfuscates target focused acquistion of neutralizeable threats"??? Holy arcane reference Batman. |
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Posted: 2/23/2024 8:27:02 AM EDT
[#17]
Quote HistoryQuoted: That's a good video I was guilty of it without even realizing My first experience was extremely frustrating to the point that I removed the RDS. |
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Posted: 2/23/2024 8:39:49 AM EDT
[#18]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Good to hear! We are having Steve Anderson at our range in May for a class. I am debating whether or not to take it.   |
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Posted: 2/23/2024 8:40:42 AM EDT
[#19]
Quoted: Quoted: When shooting, you must always take into account light, and ocular-oriented, kinetic, emotive, responses. |
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Posted: 2/23/2024 8:48:20 AM EDT
[#20]
Quote HistoryQuoted: There really was no warm up. We immediately went into drills covering vision, dot awareness/focus, dot confirmation and when it applies, doubles, transitions, shot speed based on complexity and/or distance factors, etc. It was a ton of well thought out information that while it's a "fundamentals" course, is fairly advanced in its concepts. But Ben and Joel make it easy to understand and it's pretty straight forward once you get the hang of everything. Out of around 17-18 in the class I think there were 2 with iron sights, the rest were dots. Everybody but three of us were competition shooters or had competition rigs. You really get pushed on your performance. I had positive feedback from both Ben and Joel, so that was good. Shot about 550 rounds today. The Vickers Tactical slide stop sheared off on my OZ9 and it was out of commission for the last couple of hours. It's fixed and should be GTG for tomorrow. This class is coming at just the right time for me. I shoot well, but struggle to find ways to setup my dry fire practice in order to challenge myself and improve. This class is helping me determine where my weaknesses are and come up with ways to train them. Looking forward to tomorrow. |
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Posted: 2/23/2024 8:50:32 AM EDT
[#21]
Oh 100%. I even take notes.
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Posted: 2/23/2024 8:51:31 AM EDT
[#22]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Elaborate? |
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Posted: 2/23/2024 9:13:46 AM EDT
[#23]
He might be 100% right but he also can't figure out how to get his booger hook out of the trigger guard, so....
I honestly have no idea who the guy is as I don't follow anyone on YouTube and am not into the world of competitive shooting. However I would be a little concerned if I was going to a class and the guy running it can't keep his finger off the damn trigger. Firearm safety rules apply with or without a RDS |
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Posted: 2/23/2024 9:21:02 AM EDT
[#24]
Quote HistoryQuoted: He might be 100% right but he also can't figure out how to get his booger hook out of the trigger guard, so.... I honestly have no idea who the guy is as I don't follow anyone on YouTube and am not into the world of competitive shooting. However I would be a little concerned if I was going to a class and the guy running it can't keep his finger off the damn trigger. Firearm safety rules apply with or without a RDS  |
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Posted: 2/23/2024 9:36:30 AM EDT
[#25]
Quote HistoryQuoted: He might be 100% right but he also can't figure out how to get his booger hook out of the trigger guard, so.... I honestly have no idea who the guy is as I don't follow anyone on YouTube and am not into the world of competitive shooting. However I would be a little concerned if I was going to a class and the guy running it can't keep his finger off the damn trigger. Firearm safety rules apply with or without a RDS |
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Posted: 2/23/2024 9:39:41 AM EDT
[#26]
Quote HistoryQuoted: But it's not. Aiming is useless and is explained in the first sixty seconds of the video. Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: At least only Leatham's opening statement is clickbait (and literally not his point). His point is that if you don’t have good trigger control and jerk the gun while shooting you will miss so you should work on trigger control before obsessing on aiming. |
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Posted: 2/23/2024 9:46:08 AM EDT
[#27]
Quote HistoryQuoted: He might be 100% right but he also can't figure out how to get his booger hook out of the trigger guard, so.... I honestly have no idea who the guy is as I don't follow anyone on YouTube and am not into the world of competitive shooting. However I would be a little concerned if I was going to a class and the guy running it can't keep his finger off the damn trigger. Firearm safety rules apply with or without a RDS 
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Posted: 2/23/2024 10:21:58 AM EDT
[#28]
Quote HistoryQuoted: I can tell that you are, without a doubt, the funnest guy in the room. Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: He might be 100% right but he also can't figure out how to get his booger hook out of the trigger guard, so.... I honestly have no idea who the guy is as I don't follow anyone on YouTube and am not into the world of competitive shooting. However I would be a little concerned if I was going to a class and the guy running it can't keep his finger off the damn trigger. Firearm safety rules apply with or without a RDS I've always wanted to do some dry-fire practice but I can't figure out how to do it without putting my finger in the trigger guard. 
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Posted: 2/23/2024 10:42:43 AM EDT
[#29]
Quote HistoryQuoted: I've always wanted to do some dry-fire practice but I can't figure out how to do it without putting my finger in the trigger guard. |
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Posted: 2/23/2024 10:45:59 AM EDT
[#30]
Tag
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Posted: 2/23/2024 12:12:27 PM EDT
[#31]
Quote HistoryQuoted: He might be 100% right but he also can't figure out how to get his booger hook out of the trigger guard, so.... I honestly have no idea who the guy is as I don't follow anyone on YouTube and am not into the world of competitive shooting. However I would be a little concerned if I was going to a class and the guy running it can't keep his finger off the damn trigger. Firearm safety rules apply with or without a RDS He's one of the best handgun shooters in the world. |
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Posted: 2/23/2024 12:23:12 PM EDT
[#32]
Quote HistoryQuoted: He might be 100% right but he also can't figure out how to get his booger hook out of the trigger guard, so.... I honestly have no idea who the guy is as I don't follow anyone on YouTube and am not into the world of competitive shooting. However I would be a little concerned if I was going to a class and the guy running it can't keep his finger off the damn trigger. Firearm safety rules apply with or without a RDS You tell him! |
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Posted: 2/23/2024 12:42:15 PM EDT
[#33]
Quote HistoryQuoted: He might be 100% right but he also can't figure out how to get his booger hook out of the trigger guard, so.... I honestly have no idea who the guy is as I don't follow anyone on YouTube and am not into the world of competitive shooting. However I would be a little concerned if I was going to a class and the guy running it can't keep his finger off the damn trigger. Firearm safety rules apply with or without a RDS Oh Jesus Fuck… |
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Posted: 2/23/2024 12:48:17 PM EDT
[#34]
Quote HistoryQuoted: I've always wanted to do some dry-fire practice but I can't figure out how to do it without putting my finger in the trigger guard. The only safe place to dryfire is at the range. Duh |
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Posted: 2/23/2024 4:08:37 PM EDT
[#35]
Lol, how can you not like this guy?!
He doesn't give a fuuuuuuuuuuk!  Bama Jim tries to BS his way out of the UPL complaint and other USPSA things |
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Posted: 2/23/2024 6:05:11 PM EDT
[#36]
Quote HistoryQuoted: He might be 100% right but he also can't figure out how to get his booger hook out of the trigger guard, so.... I honestly have no idea who the guy is as I don't follow anyone on YouTube and am not into the world of competitive shooting. However I would be a little concerned if I was going to a class and the guy running it can't keep his finger off the damn trigger. Firearm safety rules apply with or without a RDS  Attached File |
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Posted: 2/23/2024 8:38:43 PM EDT
[#37]
Quote HistoryOMFG  I need a link to that |
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Posted: 2/23/2024 8:43:42 PM EDT
[#38]
Day 2 AAR: Tired.
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Posted: 2/23/2024 8:46:23 PM EDT
[#39]
Cut the mullet bro
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Posted: 2/23/2024 8:49:37 PM EDT
[#40]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Day 2 AAR: Tired. Did you go training speed, match speed or FULL RETARD?
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Posted: 2/23/2024 9:19:38 PM EDT
[#41]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Did you go training speed, match speed or FULL RETARD? We did discuss lesbians, midget porn and retards among other things during class.  I was really pushing it and most groups were some A's, lots of C's but no real patterns. Either he or Joel would walk by and not say anything. To boost my confidence I'd slow down and shoot great groups and Ben would stop and say, "I'm a simple man, I like simple things, go faster!".  And back to red smash I'd go. Trigger freeze was messing me up today, I worked through it but it wasn't fun. Lots of transitions, movement, footwork, running, etc. I think I shot 1,250 or so rounds over the two days.What I was wanting to get out of the class was to identify my weaknesses and learn how to formulate a dry fire and live fire plan to help eliminate them. I'm going to work on my written plan over the weekend but Ben and Joel gave me about 9 months to a year of homework. |
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Posted: 2/23/2024 9:25:57 PM EDT
[#42]
Quote HistoryQuoted: We did discuss lesbians, midget porn and retards among other things during class. I was really pushing it and most groups were some A's, lots of C's but no real patterns. Either he or Joel would walk by and not say anything. To boost my confidence I'd slow down and shoot great groups and Ben would stop and say, "I'm a simple man, I like simple things, go faster!". And back to red smash I'd go. Trigger freeze was messing me up today, I worked through it but it wasn't fun. Lots of transitions, movement, footwork, running, etc. I think I shot 1,250 or so rounds over the two days.What I was wanting to get out of the class was to identify my weaknesses and learn how to formulate a dry fire and live fire plan to help eliminate them. I'm going to work on my written plan over the weekend but Ben and Joel gave me about 9 months to a year of homework. I was training and trying to implement stuff from his red dot videos this past week. My range buddy and I had an epiphany using them and easily doubled our red dot shooting (accuracy and speed). I only shot 200 rounds, though. We were doing Mozambiques and a simple 4" circle to 4" circle 5' transitions to retrain our eyes to lead the sights. I was also teaching my buddy how to go faster. 
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Posted: 2/23/2024 9:33:19 PM EDT
[#43]
Awesome, good stuff.
It's like when you first start and go through the whole "You don't know what you don't know". You get better and make pretty dramatic improvement and start to see down the rabbit hole. Then you make gains, practice, get better, practice more and start to see the big picture. Then you take a class like this and realize you've been looking at a much smaller picture inside a much bigger picture that may go to infinity, who knows. Again, midget porn, lesbians and retards.
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Posted: 2/23/2024 9:36:51 PM EDT
[#44]
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Posted: 2/23/2024 9:52:00 PM EDT
[#45]
I was at Ben and Joel's class the past 2 days with my wife. I second almost everything Jasirr had to say except to me it looked like 1/2 the folks had competition rigs, the other half had duty/tactical rigs with a very small smattering of your basic concealment holster and mag pouches.
You really have to come in with an open mind since it really challenges a lot of preconceptions taught over the past several decades. This class will test your knowledge, skill set and equipment. My wife's VP9 SRO mount adapter plate came loose the first day. I have blue loctited and vibratited those screw but they just won't grip. Ordered new screws through McMaster Carr last night. I used a Glock 34 Gen 5 the first day and have finally come to the realization that the Glock grip angle does not work for me. The second day my wife sported her WC SFX9 and I went big with an FN545. Love that gun! Today was our second day where we bounced between 2 bays taking the skills we learned the first day and applied them to various scenarios involving multiple targets with a good deal of dynamic movement mixed in. Very fun! I definitely need more dry practice with an occluded red dot. Definitely recommend the class but as I mentioned you do have to come in with an open mind and a bit of a thick skin as well;) |
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Posted: 2/23/2024 10:08:53 PM EDT
[#46]
Thanks for posting.
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Posted: 2/23/2024 10:15:56 PM EDT
[#47]
Quote HistoryQuoted: I was at Ben and Joel's class the past 2 days with my wife. I second almost everything Jasirr had to say except to me it looked like 1/2 the folks had competition rigs, the other half had duty/tactical rigs with a very small smattering of your basic concealment holster and mag pouches. You really have to come in with an open mind since it really challenges a lot of preconceptions taught over the past several decades. This class will test your knowledge, skill set and equipment. My wife's VP9 SRO mount adapter plate came loose the first day. I have blue loctited and vibratited those screw but they just won't grip. Ordered new screws through McMaster Carr last night. I used a Glock 34 Gen 5 the first day and have finally come to the realization that the Glock grip angle does not work for me. The second day my wife sported her WC SFX9 and I went big with an FN545. Love that gun! Today was our second day where we bounced between 2 bays taking the skills we learned the first day and applied them to various scenarios involving multiple targets with a good deal of dynamic movement mixed in. Very fun! I definitely need more dry practice with an occluded red dot. Definitely recommend the class but as I mentioned you do have to come in with an open mind and a bit of a thick skin as well;) When I take one of his classes, I think keeping an open mind will be easy for me since I'm a Stoeger simp.
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Posted: 2/23/2024 11:09:42 PM EDT
[#48]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Oddly enough, if you spend a fair bit of time running a shotgun you have a lot less problems with the visual aspects of pistol shooting... This makes a lot of sense especially with trap. You need the focus on the movement of the target and bring sight of the gun onto it. Good tip thanks @John_Wayne777 |
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Posted: 2/24/2024 1:33:07 AM EDT
[#49]
I can relate to this demonstration.
If I push too hard, I get into the realm of "I don't know what the fuck happened." Maybe my hits are good, maybe they suck. There are definitely different levels and it's pretty funny that just a couple tenths of a second feels enormous when you are shooting it. It's a line, I'm still learning where it's at. Of course, it changes as my skill level goes up too.... further confusing things  Instagram vs real life speed |
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Posted: 2/24/2024 3:22:15 PM EDT
[#50]
I can't believe I forgot to post this. My rear sight started moving, rechecked and the set screw was tight. I'm going to have to loosen it and use my jig to move it over. Iron sight fail.
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