Initially I'd planned on using Vavoline full synthetic for modern engines but apparently it's discontinued.


Fights carbon build-up in GDI / turbo motors was exactly what I wanted, still want.
Mobil, Penzoil, or Castrol market their full synthetic as such?

I have a 2021 F150 with the 2.7T.  My previous two 5.0s I changed the oil every 10,000 miles and never had engine issues (100,000 and 150,000+ miles).

It seems changing the oil on the turbos earlier than the 10K Ford recommendation is something I should think about because of fuel contamination.  Yes?

Also who would be a good lab to send oil samples to?

In the past I used Mobil 1, but plan on using Motorcraft this time around.

Psssst.

It’s all marketing with Valvoline.


They don’t make their own base oils. They don’t make additive packages.

@Foxtrot08

When I bought my current car (GM LT4 supercharged DI engine) the factory recommendation was Mobil 1 5w30 except for track days where they suggested a switch to 15w50.  I did this for a couple of HPDE days, always switching back to the 5w30 for street driving.

In 2019 GM changed their recommendation to 0w40 Dexos 2 in all situations. It's about 50% more expensive to do an oil change with the spec 0w40. As I'm not planning any HPDE days in the foreseeable future, will it really make a difference to stick to the 0w40?  

Obviously, it's not a major cost issue; we're only talking about $100/year, just curious if it will make any long term difference.

You can use Rotella T6 5w-40 and be happy. Cheap and readily available anywhere. I've ran it in a ton of high HP boosted vehicles with great results.

It takes roughly 90 minutes to do a oil change in the car.  I drop it at the dealer, get lunch, then get the car back.  It's worth the $30 charge over the cost of the oil for me. So my options there are almost always whatever GM generic Dexos 2 they use, or Mobil 1.  The cost of the oil change is the same.

API Sn+/SP?

Me still using SM oils with BMW LL-01/LL-04, ACEA A3/B3/B4, MB 229.5/229.51 certs:



Any recommendations for a good xw-30 or xw-40 that meets LL-01 and 229.5x? I have several 2016+ Mercedes and BMWs to maintain with 4 and 6 cyl turbo engines but I would like to avoid the newest 20 weight FE offerings by the OEM at this time. At least the 10w-60 I use in my M5 got updated from API SL to SN .

I had to do some research on this.  As this is a super niche application and really not my day-to-day thing - I'm more comfortable talking about the difference in hydraulic oils, then the super niche race car engines thing.


That being said, I would go with the GM Dexos 1 Gen 5w30 for street use.


If you're occasionally going to track it, you will need to go up to the 0w40 at a minimum or the 15w50 if you're really, going to track it.


The 0w40 has a much higher TBN number then the 5w30  -  12.6 vs 9.3 -   so they're worried about fuel dilution with the pressures, understandably so.


As well, you have a much higher sulfated ash % - 1.34 vs 0.8  - so this roughly translates to 'better protection'

Of course, the higher viscosity will protect better at higher temps.


However, for street use only - the FS Mobil 5w30 is fine.

Thanks for the explanation.  Appreciate the effort.

A lot of Euro specifications don't play well with US/Asian specifications - period.


Europe has taken a completely different approach to engine oils, from US/Asia.




However, almost all the Euro spec oils are a full PAO, if they're listed as full synthetic - thus the price.  So... you can't really go wrong.

Some of the BMW forums have LL-04 as the more desirable spec for West coast use, since we have lower sulfur fuel standards, while LL-01 is better for the rest of the country. Any thoughts?

Ah... the good 'ol  SAPS question.  Full SAPS? Low SAPS? Some SAPS? Maybe I'm sap.  Maybe S.A.P. is trying to take over Ze world? Fucking germans.


Anyways, I kid.

So the main difference in between a Full SAPS oil - which a BMW LL-01 oil is - is the amount of Sulfated Ash content in the oil. If you read back in my previous posted, I covered this. Sulfated ash content test - ASTM D2896 - is when you burn so much oil and how much ash remains. So this essentially, points out your ZDDP percentage in oil, because the Zinc is really, the only thing in an oil that won't burn off. So you have your ash percentage.

In a LL-01 oil, you have 1.1% Sulfated ash - or high SAPS.

In an LL-04 oil, which is a LOW SAPS oil, you have 0.8% sulfated ash content.

BMW wants the Low saps oil for the DPF on modern diesel engines. As they feel like the Ash will plug the DPF, which - it does. I know this for a fact.

Which is better for car isn't dictated by fuel really. Diesel fuel west coast vs East coast or such, doesn't change THAT much really. West coast fuel is a little bit worse in terms of Cetane value, but not like... a ton.

I would use the recommended LL-04 oil,  However, the LL-01 oil probably, really doesn't hurt anything in regular use.  But fuck, they're really splitting hairs on this oil.  

The LL-04 formulation will also be a more modern take, however the important characteristics between the two - such as the HTST (High Temp high High Shear) is generally the same between the LL-01 and LL-04.

Just the ZDDP content really, goes down.

Thanks for the response. I've mostly been using the M1 or Castrol 0w-40 in my MB, since they lost their LL-01 cert a few years ago, but in the BMWs I go with Castrol 5w-40 as it at least has LL-01. I've been eyeing the fabled "German" Castrol 0w-30 as well as the Liquimoly 5w-30 LL-04 offerings for a BMW B48 turbo 4 cylinder, which the factory recommends 0w-20 LL-14+, LL-17 FE types. BMW forums seem to hate these oil specs and almost unanimously recommend sticking with a xw-30 in LL-01/LL-04.

Liqui Moly Leichtlauf Oil

German; lab test routine show it is effective for 10,000 miles.  Not cheap...

So, you're saying Penzoil Platinum or Castrol Edge is better?

Pennzoil is at least made out of their own base oil. The GTL product is pretty solid.


Last time I heard, Castrol was being blended by Warren distributing in the US. But who knows really anymore. Castrol is an odd duck.

They’re all fine. But the “formulated for” xyz. Is pretty much marketing.

seems sus

@foxtrot08

what is the "liquid titanium" that Kendall advertises on all their high spec oils?

I remember my XD-A had it for the diesel and the GT-1 you recommended for my 2.7T has it also.

They had to remove it from their GT1 line due to Dexos requirements - otherwise they’d have too many product lines.  So they went with an idemitsu style high moly oil, which is Dexos approved.

However it’s still in their DX-A product line on hdmo. (Diesel engine oils)

https://www.tandfonline.com/doi/abs/10.1080/10402000701772595


Paper on it.

Basically, it makes FeTiO3.  And it bonds with the Zinc in the ZDDP and the metal in the engine, to form an anti wear plating inside the engine.

Or at least that’s idea.

ah ok, I see now. Yeah the amazon pics are old as they still say Liquid Titanium, but Kendalls's website has the updated LiquiTek i see.

cool man.....so I just need regular GT-1, not the high perf, max, elite, etc? soo many choices

Max.

High perform and elite are syn blends.

you are the man...thanks bro

Okay, add that to the page 5 comment
"Pennzoil platinum is solid"

Penzoil platinum

I really, really dislike getting into the whole which passenger car motor oil is better because the box for spec's is so small, they're all VERY similar.

So any difference I'm listing are literally, microscopic.

Its awesome that you're willing to share your industry knowledge on this so im going to jump in on this if you dont mind.

Ducati specs shell advance 4t ultra 15w50 for their engines, that stuff is not easily found stateside and priced accordingly when it is.

Is there any oil line thats sold in the states that is comparable to that spec. Not that its super important since Ive just been using mobil 1 15w50 for the past 8 years in it, just curious especially since ducati specs it for something sold in the US when its not available in the US.

Additionally is there substitute for the motorcraft 5w50 full synthetic that's not at aneurism inducing prices. If it wasn't for the warranty issue I would just run a similar weight oil but it would be nice to know what meets the ford oil spec.

Redline 15w50 Powersports is designed for any JASO MA/MA2 Metric bike.

Here is the press release, as it is a fairly new product:

https://www.redlineoil.com/red-line-synthetic-oil-announces-expansion-of-powersports-oil-line-with-new-15w50-powersports-oil

Very available and easy to get.


As for a replace 5w50 MC - Redline 5w50.

But it's also going to be absurdly expensive.  Any of those full PAO, racing products are niche products and very expensive to blend.  Redline is about ~$12.50 a quart from summit, in 1 gallon jugs.  I assume my price retail would be about the same as summit, maybe a little less.  But it's just an expensive product.

Good to know about the redline 15w50, I always worked under the assumption that since my bike has a dry clutch and no cats that really the only issue might be the shared oil for the gear box. But with the oil change interval being what it is I wasn't too concerned using a major oil brand.

Price wise its one of those, it is what it is situations. Figured as much but with your comment about ford wanting their cut maybe there was a better alternative. A dollar and some change cheaper per qt than what I paid for the MC brand but not enough for me to fret about. Knowing that they meet the same ford spec good to know there's at least a choice out there.

I run redline in my cuda for the transmission and it improved the shift feel. May try the motor oil in the gt350 and see how it holds up.

Ignoring wet clutch issues, how are the JASO specs compared to API? Do the JASO specs just piggy back off API and tweak them for friction modifiers to deal with a wet clutch?

Again, thanks for taking the time to do this.

JASO does piggie back on the API specs, but then as you said - they have their own specs above and beyond for wet clutches.  That being said, JASO hasn't updated their specifications per API, testing in a while - they stopped at SM / ILSAC GF3.

They have updated their MA specs.

MA - the original one oil engine / transmission.

MA1 - Requires different oils for Engine / transmission.

MA2 - Newest standard, with emissions equipped bikes.

MB - Scooter.


Putting an MA2 oil into a dry clutch bike won't hurt anything inside the engine.  The gist from my understanding, is you have to limit your use of plating type friction modifiers - such as moly, so it doesn't build up on the clutch.   Instead, you may use organic polymers or such - stuff that doesn't show up in a UOA.  Just a different (often more expensive way) - to get into the same spec box.

But that's why JASO MA2 oils rarely meet modern API specs.  Look at Rotella - T6 5w40 vs T6 0w40.

T6 5w40 -  No API gasoline specs mentioned on it's product data sheet.  However, JASO MA/MA2.
T6 0w40 -  API SN rated - but not JASO MA/MA2.

Speaking of Idemitsu...I see that they discontinued their GF5 high Moly line and came out with a GF6 'high mileage' line that uses alot of the same wording in the label. Is this their new high Moly GF6 oil?

Good info, Id buy you a drink if you were local.

Kinda confirms my edumacated guess on most of what ive been doing for this.

Honestly, ask me next week.

One of my friends from grad school is their new manager of gas compression and industrial lubricants for North America.

I may or may not be meeting with him next week

If you like the information I provide.

Do another arfcom member a solid.

Help out Apollo.


I did. https://www.ar15.com/forums/general/Apollo-is-fighting-to-live-ARFCOM-approved-kitty-fundraiser-/5-2500846/&page=3

Do not have much to add to this thread...however Foxtrot08 schooled me on newer generations of oil being sold with older generation labeling on the bottles...

Example, the recent blow out of Pennzoil Platinum/Quaker State Euro 5W-40 oil at Wallyworld.  The label says API SN+ but I believe that it is really API SP.  Bought the 5 Qt jugs for $10 to $14.  The same oil is being sold on Amazon for $45+ for 6 Qts.

Attached File

Attached File


And yes, I do have a direct injection engine...

Absolutely.

The 2.3 on OP's Mustang does NOT have an EGR system.  It was added for the 2019 Ranger.  It may be in place on other 2.3's, but not OP's Mustang.

And the automotive engineers linked and the SAE engineers in the link provided disagree that it's fuel related, even when EGR is included.  While fuel can have an effect, the vast majority of the deposits are from the oil and as the SAE link shows it's not all additives. Even though they added 25% more additives for their test.   Read it, not just the summary.   They determine the deposits are mostly from whole oil from the PCV system and not from the EGR system.

That was made in September of 2019.

So probably before the change over. Or right as the change over was happening.  Depending on which packaging plant it came out of.

If it was made and packaged at Gordon terminal, that change over happened sometime around February of 2020 iirc. At least for P66 products.

The date on the bottle says 3/21

What do you think it is?

@Foxtrot08

Thanks...

Mobil 1 - if you can get it.

I did pick up some Castrol since I normally keep a few 5qt jugs around and Mobil 1 was out in my weight.

Seriously?

What the fuck is your point? I’m asking bluntly.

Maybe I’m just this




Yeah. I’m not a car guy. I don’t know the exact exhaust gas routing style in every car. I know the ranger and the transit version has egr. Because I have those in front of me. Often.  

I broke down the entire concept, I did read more then the summary.

And I’ve actually talked to the ChemE’s at Afton, Lubrizol, Oronite and infinium before.

Yet you won’t take my word. So I summarize it in that, using articles to support my opinion on it. My opinion on it isn’t exactly lined up with the SAE. Or the chemical engineers. It’s my opinion.

What’s your background? Or are you just going to throw stones at me for trying to be nice and breaking everything down?

You’ve yet to do anything productive except for try to get a “gotcha moment” and you’re really stretching here.


The SAE report is in lab testing. They admitted it.

Real world:



That comes out of the bottom of ungrounded storage tanks.

Along with a lot of water. How do I know this? I own a company that does underground storage tank cleaning.


Your fuel is really, really, really less than perfect.

As I said, it’s a combination of things. It’s especially bad in EGR vehicles - which, the vast majority of vehicles on the road have a version of the EGR. God forbid I fucking miss a single vehicle, who shares the same engine, with a vehicle who does have an egr.

It’s also not Noack. If you read my entire post, you will notice I say it all snow balls.



But you know what, sure. I’m wrong.  I’ll be done with this thread. And go drink my dumb bitch juice.

I can read Foxtrot08 and WOAFP threads for hours.

Experts impress me.

I had a supercharged C6 a few years ago. It was fun on the highway with only 636rwhp.

And yes, Mobil 1 synthetic was what I ran.

Attached File


Attached File

Thatsbeautiful.gif

I have always used Mobil 1, but after watching the Project Farm I have decided to give Amazon Basics Full Synthetic a try in my DD - I change oil every 5K miles.

My point is you acted like a holier than thou all knowing and seeing God not only in this thread but in others.

OP can choose whatever he feels is best, but don't pretend like the automotive engineers, oil companies, mechanics, Ford, Toyota, Volkswagen (developers of the walnut cleaning method), and myself with personal experience and knowledge are wrong and you're right and you're the expert on all things mechanical.  

Automotive and mechanical engineers have found the NOACK test to be the best analogue to performance in this regard which is part of why the very friendly and intelligent man at Project Farm chooses to cook off oil in his testing.

You made vast mechanical assumptions.  Examples: EGR, quoting summary only of SAE document, ignoring the SAE findings on IVD being mostly from whole oil through the PCV system, quoting a different SAE document unrelated to mechanical design of OP's engine, quoting carbon buildup in completely different environments and passing it off as appropriate data for another thing, advising to assume oil bottles labeled SN are actually SN+, had never heard of the very common and known issue of IVD.

At the same time you acted as if your word is that of God's while denigrating myself, the good man and good work of Project Farm, and others.  This is repeated behavior, not just one example in one thread.

Vast assumptions? EGR - US and Euro cars have the primary global market share of EGR equipped vehicles in the world. The majority of vehicles on the road today, have a version of EGR.  Especially GDI cars, it’s actually rare they’re not. This case proved it. Same engine, two versions of the engine one with it. One with out it.

I quoted the summary because I’m typing on a fucking forum for fun. Do you really want me to write out a doctoral response?

And when did I say I didn’t have an idea what it was?

Or did you miss the part that I said: I own a chemical company that specifically deals with carbon build up in engines.

Literally. Own a chemical company that does it. You know what removes it fucking great?

floor cleaner. No joke. Takes the carbon right off.


How many millions of gallons of passenger car motor oil do you sell a year? Who bottles it for you? What major oil company do you work with? What addpack house are you with? Who’s base oil are you primarily blending with? Who’s solubilizing your additive?

You didn’t even know what Noack was until I brought the term up, defined it for you and showed you information from Chevron that hey - there’s not a big change between Dexos limit of n13% and n15%. But oh, no it’s the biggest deal ever.


When presented with several documents you’ve only gone through and did the gotcha moments. If you want a complete, 8 hour break down on oil, combustion process, fuel, fuel additives and treatments, etc. you’re welcome to pay my bill and I’ll give you a presentation on that.  Right now, I’m doing it for free on arfcom. You can either add to the conversation, or troll like you are now.

Bringing up project farm completely makes your statements above even more absurd.

All his tests are clearly unscientific.

All his “testing” methodology is terrible.

His one armed bandit machine can be broken by dawn dish washing fluid. As pointed out - the demo of those machines can literally get the federal government to sue you.

Those machines are fucking terrible and joke. Let alone the above problems.

And! There’s public information on all this. All his tests that he tries to “recreate” in his garage.. have standardized tests.

All of them.

If you want a copy of the handbook from Afton, all 575 pages of it, I can send it to you. And you can see all the tests for motor oils. Every one of them. That they have to go through: and it’s much, much more extensive than project farm.

And that’s even with out going into the private industry knowledge behind each one of those products. Knowing who’s using what, where, when and how.


So yeah. My credentials:

I own one of the largest oil distributors in North America. I grew up in this industry.  My family has been in it for over 100 years.


How about yours?


Or you just gonna keep trolling with gotcha moments?

I’ve made a complete, well rounded argument of how and why it builds. From additives, to fuel, to oil, to engine design.  

Your response is “nah; you’re dumb.”


Cheers.

Recently published article supporting my theory on fuel. As it studied the build up of deposits from fuel: https://saemobilus.sae.org/content/04-14-01-0001/

I do believe I have a copy of that, or an article citing it at my office.

Ok, this thread has been quite entertaining, but the purse swinging has made me fast forward a bit.  @ Foxtrot08 a question for you about non vehicle engines...  (sorry if this has been covered previousy)    For engines like generators, is there anything specific that you would recommend (or recommend staying away from?)     I have a few portable gas generators from Champion and Honda specifically.   I thankfully don't need to actually use them very often but I do run them for a bit every few months and change the oil on an annual basis regardless.    For an air cooled engine like the gas generators, any advice that you can provide would be greatly appreciated!

Timber

Any major brand would be fine for that application.

Air cooled engines are a very simple and old engine design. All modern oils well exceed what is required for them. So take your favorite brand and run with it.

Thank you sir, and GO BUCKS!  

Tell me more about floor cleaner and carbon removal

This could save me a ton of money rebuilding my Optimaxes

Also check out what I forgot I bought and changed the oil in the VK56 tonight with

Attached File


It’s says it’s good stuff lol

Attached File

My gf has a 2016 BMW 340 turbo six.

Recommended factory is 0w-20, but most of the "European" blends I see are like 5w-30 or 0w-40.

Is it worth going to the different weight, or just buying something like Pennzoil platinum in 0w-20 when I find it?

Currently I dropped in Mobil1 0w-20 and it's ok.

Just trying to figure this all out.  

And Fox, thank you kindly for all you've shared here.  Don't let one ass clown troll ruin an otherwise awesome thread.