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Posted: 7/21/2018 3:39:51 PM EDT
[#1]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
On a tail dragger you have to react to the tendency of the tail to swing from anything from p-factor to side wind. You have to almost predict it sometimes. If you react after the tail has already begun its swing you are already in trouble. If you react after the swing you are likely going to exacerbate the issue. Think Pilot induced oscillation. There are control locks and gust locks. Control locks generally install on the yokes and prevent the control of the... well controls. Gust locks install on the control surfaces and prevent the wind from allowing the control surfaces to move freely in the wind. If either are not removed you have no control over the aircraft. Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
When you guys say "the tail got away from him", please explain to us non-pilots. Also, what do you mean by "control locks"? There are control locks and gust locks. Control locks generally install on the yokes and prevent the control of the... well controls. Gust locks install on the control surfaces and prevent the wind from allowing the control surfaces to move freely in the wind. If either are not removed you have no control over the aircraft. |
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Posted: 7/21/2018 3:42:12 PM EDT
[#2]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
If the rudder was locked how would the plane taxi into position for take off? |
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Posted: 7/21/2018 3:42:26 PM EDT
[#3]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
It’s been hotter than normal here...110 today in Dallas. That plane needed more speed to take off in this heat. It looked like it was going pretty slow. Most of our local warbirds (CAF Falcon Field, Mesa AZ) go out on tour during the summer months and don’t come back until Autumn. The hot air is just too thin |
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Posted: 7/21/2018 3:44:48 PM EDT
[#4]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
If the rudder was locked how would the plane taxi into position for take off? That said... I never contemplated that. Maybe the pilot forgot to lock the tail wheel. The tail wheel must be locked for take off and landing. 
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Posted: 7/21/2018 3:50:28 PM EDT
[#5]
According to Wiki, there are almost two dozen airworthy C-47s still flying in the US and maybe a half dozen airworthy examples internationally. Certainly, a better situation than the B-29, with only two remaining airworthy examples, both in the US.
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Posted: 7/21/2018 3:52:19 PM EDT
[#6]
Quoted: The people saying "the tail got away from him" are non pilots. Edit: Control locks on that aircraft are metal devices that hold the moving part of the tail surfaces against the non- moving parts to keep them from moving while the aircraft is parked. Wind gusts can slam the controls around if they are not installed. They attach usually with bungee cords, and have red flags on them to remind pilots to remove before flight. Quoted: On a tail dragger you have to react to the tendency of the tail to swing from anything from p-factor to side wind. You have to almost predict it sometimes. If you react after the tail has already begun its swing you are already in trouble. If you react after the swing you are likely going to exacerbate the issue. Think Pilot induced oscillation. There are control locks and gust locks. Control locks generally install on the yokes and prevent the control of the... well controls. Gust locks install on the control surfaces and prevent the wind from allowing the control surfaces to move freely in the wind. If either are not removed you have no control over the aircraft. |
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Posted: 7/21/2018 3:54:37 PM EDT
[#7]
Bluebonnet Belle
 C-47 Wings Over Dallas 2016  Failed To Load Title  C-47 Bluebonnet Belle |
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Posted: 7/21/2018 3:55:30 PM EDT
[#8]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Looks like the tail never came up and a loss of directional control, which leads me to believe they had the control lock devices still on the stab and rudder during takeoff. That tail should have been flying very soon during the takeoff roll. I was number 2 for takeoff behind a turbo converted DC-3 in Africa, looked exactly like that. That plane hit a parked Caravan and hit in a ditch next to the runway. Both control lock devices were layin aft of the wreckage. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Air_Indiana_Flight_216 |
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Posted: 7/21/2018 4:00:01 PM EDT
[#9]
Someone updated wiki about 4 minutes ago to reflect the destruction of Bluebonnet Belle. That was fast.
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Posted: 7/21/2018 4:47:17 PM EDT
[#10]
If this was a case of control locks still in place....damn.
 Hey, ever heard of running the FULL preflight and all checklists, just to be SURE? I'm sure you've seen it, and if not, it's easy to find on youtube: There's a video of a DeHavilland Caribou that took off and rapidly came back down because someone skipped the checklists and thus failed to notice the control locks still in place. |
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Posted: 7/21/2018 4:51:08 PM EDT
[#11]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
If this was a case of control locks still in place....damn. Hey, ever heard of running the FULL preflight and all checklists, just to be SURE? I'm sure you've seen it, and if not, it's easy to find on youtube: There's a video of a DeHavilland Caribou that took off and rapidly came back down because someone skipped the checklists and thus failed to notice the control locks still in place.  Ford Tri motor crash |
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Posted: 7/21/2018 5:07:00 PM EDT
[#12]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Looks like the tail never came up and a loss of directional control, which leads me to believe they had the control lock devices still on the stab and rudder during takeoff. That tail should have been flying very soon during the takeoff roll. I was number 2 for takeoff behind a turbo converted DC-3 in Africa, looked exactly like that. That plane hit a parked Caravan and hit in a ditch next to the runway. Both control lock devices were layin aft of the wreckage. What a retarded "accident". At the time the idiot witness says the first "oh shit", they could have simply pulled power off for a low speed abort. |
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Posted: 7/21/2018 5:11:41 PM EDT
[#13]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
When you guys say "the tail got away from him", please explain to us non-pilots. Also, what do you mean by "control locks"? 
Similar to pitot tube covers. 
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Posted: 7/21/2018 5:12:43 PM EDT
[#14]
Quote HistoryQuoted: That's something I hope I never see again. Those old aircraft are more than private property -- they are national treasures. Only the most capable and experienced pilots should be allowed to fly them. |
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Posted: 7/21/2018 5:15:53 PM EDT
[#15]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
If the rudder was locked they wouldn't be able to control it from the start from all the p factor. Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted: I watched the video a few times... You might be onto something. That rudder was not swinging from what I can tell. |
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Posted: 7/21/2018 5:16:12 PM EDT
[#16]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
If this was a case of control locks still in place....damn. Hey, ever heard of running the FULL preflight and all checklists, just to be SURE? I'm sure you've seen it, and if not, it's easy to find on youtube: There's a video of a DeHavilland Caribou that took off and rapidly came back down because someone skipped the checklists and thus failed to notice the control locks still in place. |
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Posted: 7/21/2018 5:23:26 PM EDT
[#17]
The guy taking the video saw a problem early on. All I noticed was that the tail was not up when it went by him. I will look to see if the
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Posted: 7/21/2018 5:27:48 PM EDT
[#18]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
I watched the video a few times... You might be onto something. That rudder was not swinging from what I can tell. Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
Looks like the tail never came up and a loss of directional control, which leads me to believe they had the control lock devices still on the stab and rudder during takeoff. That tail should have been flying very soon during the takeoff roll. I was number 2 for takeoff behind a turbo converted DC-3 in Africa, looked exactly like that. That plane hit a parked Caravan and hit in a ditch next to the runway. Both control lock devices were layin aft of the wreckage. ETA: will watch on a larger screen when I get home. |
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Posted: 7/21/2018 5:31:22 PM EDT
[#19]
Quote HistoryQuoted: I see younger pilots using tablets during walk around and take-off checklist so they don't miss anything. Do the older guys still use paper lists or go by memory? |
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Posted: 7/21/2018 5:32:16 PM EDT
[#20]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Yes, just down the road. They were on takeoff and headed to Oshkosh. 13 persons onboard, pilot airlifted to BAMC with severe burns. No idea of the cause although some guy on FB is claiming the landing gear collapsed. Mike |
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Posted: 7/21/2018 5:35:36 PM EDT
[#21]
"Controls.........free and correct"
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Posted: 7/21/2018 6:15:10 PM EDT
[#22]
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Posted: 7/21/2018 6:27:28 PM EDT
[#23]
 Bluebonnet Belle C-47 Crash in Burnet, Texas |
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Posted: 7/21/2018 6:36:00 PM EDT
[#24]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
If the rudder was locked how would the plane taxi into position for take off? ETA: Actually it looks like they use differential power. All my tailwheel time is in singles. http://www.douglasdc3.com/dc3taxi/dc3taxi.htm |
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Posted: 7/21/2018 6:49:38 PM EDT
[#25]
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Posted: 7/21/2018 6:54:19 PM EDT
[#26]
Quote HistoryI don't see any gust locks. that's a good sign in that regard. I wish there was more pictures. |
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Posted: 7/21/2018 6:56:59 PM EDT
[#27]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
And an insurance company's adjuster somewhere just said "there goes my weekend" |
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Posted: 7/21/2018 7:04:41 PM EDT
[#28]
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Posted: 7/21/2018 7:08:05 PM EDT
[#29]
Quote HistoryA de Haviland Venom went down yesterday too.
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Posted: 7/21/2018 7:13:09 PM EDT
[#30]
Wow. Glad all survived. Hope the pilot survives his injuries.
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Posted: 7/21/2018 7:28:28 PM EDT
[#31]
i don't know which was worse, the vertical fucking video, or the stupid fucking narration.
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Posted: 7/21/2018 7:47:29 PM EDT
[#32]
Quote HistoryQuoted: A de Haviland Venom went down yesterday too. Airshowstuff.com had posted a video of the Venom in action just days before the crash.  DH-112 Venom Cartridge Start and Flyover |
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Posted: 7/21/2018 7:53:41 PM EDT
[#33]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
That's something I hope I never see again. Those old aircraft are more than private property -- they are national treasures. Only the most capable and experienced pilots should be allowed to fly them. Quote HistoryQuoted:
That's something I hope I never see again. Those old aircraft are more than private property -- they are national treasures. Only the most capable and experienced pilots should be allowed to fly them. I worry about losing those forgotten aircraft much more than I do those that are meticulously restored and lovingly maintained, all via private funds and volunteer effort. |
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Posted: 7/21/2018 8:13:15 PM EDT
[#34]
Hmmm finally got to watch the video.
Not sure it was a gust lock, but I am on a phone. I need to see it on a bigger screen. my current leaning is pilot got behind the aircraft or left the control lock in. The rudder appears to be in motion long before. Now whether the gust lock on the elevators was not removed. Now that is a possibility. Or maybe the control lock on the yoke. Most tailwheel aircraft that I have flown use control locks that leave the elevators in the up position to keep the tail on the ground in windy conditions while on tie downs. Without seeing a bigger video, Or a better one; My leaning is that the pilot removed the gust lock but did not remove the yokes control lock. I think he yanked the lock off when he noticed it (meaning, he tried to get the tail flying) and tried to recover instead of aborting the airplane (a mistake on sooo many levels). I base this off of the fact that the elevators stay in that up position and the ailerons do not really move until the plane departs the runway. Then they move quite violently as the pilot tries to salvage the takeoff. the rudder would act and was acting normally, (and I fully admit that I do not know the dc3/c47 systems intimately, so I very well may be in error) because there is no in cockpit control lock for the pedals in any aircraft I have been PIC in. I am very curious to see the NTSB report, and it makes me sad to see a glamorous old girl loose her life to that level of negligence. |
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Posted: 7/21/2018 8:15:12 PM EDT
[#35]
Question for aviation nuts (nuttier than me, that is):
Are warbirds & vintage aircraft de-tuned? Since they’re no longer combat capable. I’m not suggesting either loss was power related, just curious about how wrung out the are (or are not) |
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Posted: 7/21/2018 8:21:11 PM EDT
[#36]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Question for aviation nuts (nuttier than me, that is): Are warbirds & vintage aircraft de-tuned? Since they’re no longer combat capable. I’m not suggesting either loss was power related, just curious about how wrung out the are (or are not) They are now running 100 LL fuel mostly. I do believe 130 is available still. |
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Posted: 7/21/2018 8:26:05 PM EDT
[#37]
I'm about 12 miles from there and just heard about this. Really sad to see the plane destroyed but glad everyone survived. There are a few other WWII planes kept there and they have them all out for the air show every year. You can pay to go for rides on a couple of them which I always thought would be neat.
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Posted: 7/21/2018 8:28:14 PM EDT
[#38]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Question for aviation nuts (nuttier than me, that is): Are warbirds & vintage aircraft de-tuned? Since they're no longer combat capable. I'm not suggesting either loss was power related, just curious about how wrung out the are (or are not) |
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Posted: 7/21/2018 8:46:17 PM EDT
[#39]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
At what point do you call it a quits with these planes, they are old. They are cool as hell but damn. |
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Posted: 7/21/2018 9:17:17 PM EDT
[#40]
Seen video onphone and TV, Flaps up ?
Dc3 flaps drop from bottom of trailing edge, I know they don't lower alot but as it goes by I didn't see flaps against background. Really looks like he tried to take off too slowly without enough lift. |
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Posted: 7/21/2018 10:05:51 PM EDT
[#41]
My dad flew the C-46 for a major airline. He said is was a handful always. His exact words were “you flew it all the way to the ramp and backed away from it slowly”
My bad got the -46 and the -47 mixed up. My dad flew the Curtiss Commando. Been a long duty day. |
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Posted: 7/21/2018 10:19:32 PM EDT
[#42]
Sad to hear that. Pretty sure they used her to ferry supplies last year for Hurricane Harvey.
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Posted: 7/21/2018 10:22:04 PM EDT
[#43]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Seen video onphone and TV, Flaps up ? Dc3 flaps drop from bottom of trailing edge, I know they don't lower alot but as it goes by I didn't see flaps against background. Really looks like he tried to take off too slowly without enough lift.   Specifications Name: Bluebonnet Belle N-Number: N47HL Mfg Date: December 1944 Specifications Wing Span: 95 ft. 0 in. Length: 64 ft. 5 in. Height: 16 ft. 11 in. Weight: 33,000 lbs loaded Armament: None Engines: Two Pratt & Whitney R-1830s of 1,200 hp. each Crew: Six Cost: $138,000 Serial Number: 43-49942 Performance Maximum speed: 232 mph. Cruising speed: 175 mph. Range: 1,513 miles Service Ceiling: 24,450 ft http://www.highlandlakessquadron.com/aircraft/c47 https://aviation-safety.net/database/record.php?id=20180721-0 No Flaps? 
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Posted: 7/21/2018 10:29:05 PM EDT
[#44]
Sad deal
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Posted: 7/21/2018 10:31:03 PM EDT
[#45]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Flying in C-47 is on my bucket list. 
My favorite C-47 is this one that delivered fuel to us in AK  Attached File1953 C-47 Super |
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Posted: 7/21/2018 10:33:10 PM EDT
[#46]
 World War II aircraft and crew returns from Harvey relief mission  C-47 "Bluebonnet Belle" Approach and Landing at Burnet, Texas |
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Posted: 7/21/2018 10:35:51 PM EDT
[#47]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Here's an older pic that shows the flaps. https://bloximages.newyork1.vip.townnews.com/kdhnews.com/content/tncms/assets/v3/editorial/0/f9/0f982be8-d620-11e2-bf6e-0019bb30f31a/51bd0e0c55cde.image.jpg https://i.kinja-img.com/gawker-media/image/upload/s--_hZaPKg9--/c_scale,f_auto,fl_progressive,q_80,w_800/fzqbtvp2xy9ydde8t2co.jpg Specifications Name: Bluebonnet Belle N-Number: N47HL Mfg Date: December 1944 Specifications Wing Span: 95 ft. 0 in. Length: 64 ft. 5 in. Height: 16 ft. 11 in. Weight: 33,000 lbs loaded Armament: None Engines: Two Pratt & Whitney R-1830s of 1,200 hp. each Crew: Six Cost: $138,000 Serial Number: 43-49942 Performance Maximum speed: 232 mph. Cruising speed: 175 mph. Range: 1,513 miles Service Ceiling: 24,450 ft http://www.highlandlakessquadron.com/aircraft/c47 https://aviation-safety.net/database/record.php?id=20180721-0 No Flaps? https://s2-ssl.dmcdn.net/rM9oB.jpg Flaps on the DC-3 and C-47 were inboard and droop down from the wing. They are split. |
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Posted: 7/21/2018 10:39:28 PM EDT
[#48]
Quote HistoryQuoted: There are no extended flaps in any of those photos. Flaps on the DC-3 and C-47 were inboard and droop down from the wing. They are split. 
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Posted: 7/21/2018 10:45:20 PM EDT
[#49]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Thanks just found a pic. http://2.bp.blogspot.com/_PBGzvyx5MOw/TMkPhXPjZfI/AAAAAAAAEoc/2ktAfw0vkRQ/s1600/FullFlaps.JPG They are like an SNJ. Or a P-40. Only a lot bigger and more of them. |
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Posted: 7/22/2018 1:22:52 AM EDT
[#50]
 Plane crashes at Burnet Municipal Airport  Crash destroys WWII-era plane in Burnet; all 13 on board survive |
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