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Posted: 11/12/2023 11:45:42 AM EDT
[#1]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Maps might give you the ability. Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: Quoted: Electronic maps are, indeed, very poor at giving you big picture information. Screen size and resolution simply isn't sufficient. But, then again, maps can be notoriously bad at telling you where you are. Not to mention the age of maps and legends, the inaccuracies of that map to begin with, and so forth. Maps do not tell you where you are. Maps give you the ability to determine where you are. You have to do the work - It may seem nuanced, but that's the way it works.. A GPS, and a good map is a great combination, especially if you can use UTM for both. Depending on the Datum, you can use the GPS to navigate very close to any spot on a map. If we're just talking about roads and cities, then yes, a GPS is probably all you need. Both are tools. Both should be in your tool box. No, maps don't grant you any abilities. They provide information. |
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Posted: 11/12/2023 11:47:10 AM EDT
[#2]
Quote HistoryQuoted: I haven't seen a paper map in over a decade. I wouldn't even know where to buy one. They sell the atlases there. |
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Posted: 11/12/2023 11:48:01 AM EDT
[#3]
Years ago the Navy in its infinite wisdom declared paper charts were obsolete, and said digital maps and glass mapping/GPS equipment was in. That lasted until the admirals realized that once the juice stopped flowing and all those glass screens went blank, they had numerous year groups of SWOs who were not proficient with chart reading and couldn't use those to navigate.
Once a vessel or three ran aground due to casualties with the glass NAV equipment, paper charts were cool again and they even increased sextant training. |
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Posted: 11/12/2023 11:48:17 AM EDT
[#4]
It's been a long time since I've used a proper map. A few years back the kids at work stumbled upon a road atlas, and were like WTF is this. I told them it was an analog GPS, which confused them more.
 I stopped telling people "Head North on Main for three miles...", they usually don't have a clue. Now it's "go left until you pass McDonald's" with finger pointing and grunting. 
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Posted: 11/12/2023 11:49:44 AM EDT
[#5]
Quote HistoryQuoted: I tell my teenage daughters about how you would keep a map book in the car...turn to the back, look up the street then turn to page 17 and look in B5 on the grid for your street and they look at me like I'm a timetraveler from the past, lol. Still keep a map book in the car... |
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Posted: 11/12/2023 11:51:24 AM EDT
[#6]
Quote HistoryQuoted: It's been a long time since I've used a proper map. A few years back the kids at work stumbled upon a road atlas, and were like WTF is this. I told them it was an analog GPS, which confused them more. I stopped telling people "Head North on Main for three miles...", they usually don't have a clue. Now it's "go left until you pass McDonald's" with finger pointing and grunting. |
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Posted: 11/12/2023 11:53:39 AM EDT
[#7]
Quote HistoryQuoted: If you really want to fuck them up tell them about relative bearing and true bearing! Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: It's been a long time since I've used a proper map. A few years back the kids at work stumbled upon a road atlas, and were like WTF is this. I told them it was an analog GPS, which confused them more. I stopped telling people "Head North on Main for three miles...", they usually don't have a clue. Now it's "go left until you pass McDonald's" with finger pointing and grunting. ETA - looked it up on my digital device. Easy enough to understand, but probably never something I will need to know.
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Posted: 11/12/2023 11:53:47 AM EDT
[#8]
Neither side of your brain is fully formed to it's potential until you master the art of folding a Texaco road map, one handed, while driving.
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Posted: 11/12/2023 11:55:06 AM EDT
[#9]
I still practice with my USGA maps and compass, but I never carry them into the woods anymore.
I also never carry maps in the car anymore. "Electronics could fail" is just a bogeyman not worth preparing for, for me. YMMV. I have never had any of my GPS devices fail. That said, if I was going somewhere much more remote than my typical Pennsylvania trek, then I probably would carry a map and compass. It's funny, I was on the bridge of my submarine for maneuvering watch from 2000-2004 and even then, despite all the people plotting a course on paper down below, we drove the boat with a handheld GPS in the bridge 98% of the time. |
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Posted: 11/12/2023 11:58:17 AM EDT
[#10]
Quote HistoryQuoted: I haven't seen a paper map in over a decade. I wouldn't even know where to buy one. https://mapstore.mytopo.com/ |
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Posted: 11/12/2023 11:59:38 AM EDT
[#11]
I spent many years building computer models - basically making maps - and now there’s very little demand for map-reading skills.
Oh well. |
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Posted: 11/12/2023 12:01:03 PM EDT
[#12]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Reno NV is further west than Los Angeles CA. Well, duh, look at a map |
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Posted: 11/12/2023 12:02:05 PM EDT
[#13]
Pocket Earth app gives you the ability to download maps and use them without incoming data. It needs the internet to make a route, but it is an option with sketchy cell areas.
That said I have DELORME Guidebooks in the vehicle. More then once have I caught myself reaching down to “expand” the map. |
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Posted: 11/12/2023 12:02:16 PM EDT
[#14]
What if you are like people I know who cannot read an iPhone map?
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Posted: 11/12/2023 12:02:23 PM EDT
[#15]
Reminds me to call AAA and order more maps. I gave my nephew a bunch o' maps of the Western States.
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Posted: 11/12/2023 12:04:39 PM EDT
[#16]
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Posted: 11/12/2023 12:05:20 PM EDT
[#17]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Neither side of your brain is fully formed to it's potential until you master the art of folding a Texaco road map, one handed, while driving. My Grandmother used those when I was a kid |
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Posted: 11/12/2023 12:06:04 PM EDT
[#18]
Quote HistoryI'm a millennial and have won orienteering competitions with the tools on the bottom.
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Posted: 11/12/2023 12:07:07 PM EDT
[#19]
Quote HistoryQuoted: If I'm being honest, I couldn't explain it. I would probably die in the wilderness if that information was vital to my survival. Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: Quoted: It's been a long time since I've used a proper map. A few years back the kids at work stumbled upon a road atlas, and were like WTF is this. I told them it was an analog GPS, which confused them more. I stopped telling people "Head North on Main for three miles...", they usually don't have a clue. Now it's "go left until you pass McDonald's" with finger pointing and grunting. Not too crazy a concept, relative bearing is the direction that something appears away from you v. your actual vector. Put another way, if something appears at your 1000, that is a relative bearing because if you are actually heading 330 (or NNW) then that something is actually bearing 300 (or WNW) from you. And if both are moving at a good clip, you can also figure out CPA (Closest Point of Approach). These are vital calculations for heavy metal objects traveling on, through or under fluids. |
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Posted: 11/12/2023 12:07:38 PM EDT
[#20]
Quote HistoryQuoted: I haven't seen a paper map in over a decade. I wouldn't even know where to buy one. REI and various fishing / sporting goods stores still vary them |
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Posted: 11/12/2023 12:08:19 PM EDT
[#21]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Most people can't find the cardinal directions when the Sun is shining, let alone reason and correlate its position with a clock. Or calculate time enroute for a trip. Maps are indecipherable hieroglyphics. How many people do you suppose have no idea that magnetic north and geographic north are in different locations, or that they pass through lines of magnetic deviation on a trip? My confidence is so low that I'll bet the number of people that can identify the continent where they live is small. Probably bang on pans to drive away bad spirits when they see a string of Starlink satellites pass overhead - if they could be pried away from a phone and go outside in the dark. 
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Posted: 11/12/2023 12:10:58 PM EDT
[#22]
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Posted: 11/12/2023 12:12:30 PM EDT
[#23]
I started a new position w a medical supply co . We rely a lot on Garmin gps . First thing I said in our morning meeting was I’d like to get some maps issued to the trucks . I was not only poo pooed but actually mocked .
These kids have no clue . |
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Posted: 11/12/2023 12:12:40 PM EDT
[#24]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Brad and his partner. For fuck's sake. You know... when the signal is turned off, some people will simply die in place because they won't know what else to do. Quote HistoryQuoted: It's a concern shared by Brad Green, who, along with his partner Petra Thoms, owns the shop World of Maps in Ottawa. Brad and his partner. For fuck's sake. You know... when the signal is turned off, some people will simply die in place because they won't know what else to do. Is that his business partner or his female SO partner? Petra is a woman's name. Stop looking for offense, real offense will find you. |
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Posted: 11/12/2023 12:13:25 PM EDT
[#25]
Quote HistoryQuoted: I spent last weekend teaching civil air patrol cadets map reading and land navigation. Everyone should understand lat long and UTM/MGRS Lots of folks still use a map, GPS signals can and will go out at times. Phones and GPS watch batteries will go dead. Today I will be in a Cessna with a sectional navigating. Folks need to understand how to navigate while airborne as well. Join a local Civil Air patrol squadron and you can get this training for free. Just about every squadron needs more flight crew members. Today I will get three hours flying in a Cessna getting the above training for free. If I had to pay for it, that would cost almost $600. Ask some pilots to plan a cross country by dead reckoning. We used to do that and regularly arrive within a couple minutes of our planned time. |
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Posted: 11/12/2023 12:14:44 PM EDT
[#26]
Quote HistoryQuoted: maybe....business partner? Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: It's a concern shared by Brad Green, who, along with his partner Petra Thoms, owns the shop World of Maps in Ottawa. Brad and his partner. For fuck's sake. You know... when the signal is turned off, some people will simply die in place because they won't know what else to do. That wouldn’t allow him to be outraged though |
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Posted: 11/12/2023 12:15:22 PM EDT
[#27]
Is map-reading a lost art?
Yes. We are doomed. It's really nice to have a GPS map where it shows you the map on the screen, and adds an indicator to show you where you are. I appreciate that. Nowadays, too many people cannot work with that. They MUST have Siri or some other automated voice giving them the turn-by-turn directions. |
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Posted: 11/12/2023 12:16:09 PM EDT
[#28]
Quote HistoryQuoted: If you can read/follow a GPS, you can read/follow a map. Some people just follow the directions with no concept of where they are or where they’re going. |
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Posted: 11/12/2023 12:16:36 PM EDT
[#29]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Mag Var was the bane of my existence while doing the Navigation course at TWA. Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: Most people can't find the cardinal directions when the Sun is shining, let alone reason and correlate its position with a clock. Or calculate time enroute for a trip. Maps are indecipherable hieroglyphics. How many people do you suppose have no idea that magnetic north and geographic north are in different locations, or that they pass through lines of magnetic deviation on a trip? My confidence is so low that I'll bet the number of people that can identify the continent where they live is small. Probably bang on pans to drive away bad spirits when they see a string of Starlink satellites pass overhead - if they could be pried away from a phone and go outside in the dark. Mag Var was the bane of my existence while doing the Navigation course at TWA. When I was flying in the PNW the deviation there was crazy. A good reason for a rock solid gyro compass, especially in a fast airplane. I use paper maps first, then Google Earth for better detail when service is available, then GPS for location and speed last. My wife bought a GPS receiver with an 8 inch screen for my pickup. The display is a trivial improvement, mostly a larger display of inadequate information, and there is no place to mount it without blocking something else. It lives in it's box. |
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Posted: 11/12/2023 12:17:20 PM EDT
[#30]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Thomas Guides FTW I used to navigate Chicago with just a pocket street guide that gave the cross hundred blocks of streets. |
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Posted: 11/12/2023 12:18:06 PM EDT
[#31]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Maps are for boomers and lazy .gov employees Ignorance is a curse for all those mentally challenged who can't read a map. |
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Posted: 11/12/2023 12:19:08 PM EDT
[#32]
Quote HistoryQuoted: I love reading maps. Same. |
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Posted: 11/12/2023 12:20:08 PM EDT
[#33]
I could be better at map reading but something I've seen recently really surprised me. I think it's a generational thing but drivers for Door Dash, grocery delivery and that sort of thing literally don't know about house numbers. They stop where the GPS tells them and if it's not obvious which house that is, then they just pick one. It's a regular occurrence in my neighborhood. I've seen it happen to my neighbor 3 times in about 3 weeks and they have numbers on the front of their house at least a foot high.
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Posted: 11/12/2023 12:21:50 PM EDT
[#34]
In the woods, paper quadrangle maps with topo lines, and a Garmin GPS for lat/long verification and altitude. Paper gives the big picture.
In the car have paper maps for the states traveled. They can give you ideas for side trips if you want do deviate from the planned route. A phone GPS used for detailed directions. Both can lead you astray. GPS can direct you to a dead end street that picks up again two blocks away, and paper maps don’t tell you the construction zones. Let’s talk LORAN… |
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Posted: 11/12/2023 12:24:08 PM EDT
[#35]
Quote HistoryAnd years later she is still the poster child for the future of Idiocracy. |
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Posted: 11/12/2023 12:24:18 PM EDT
[#36]
Quote HistoryQuoted: @CouncilOfDave Not too crazy a concept, relative bearing is the direction that something appears away from you v. your actual vector. Put another way, if something appears at your 1000, that is a relative bearing because if you are actually heading 330 (or NNW) then that something is actually bearing 300 (or WNW) from you. And if both are moving at a good clip, you can also figure out CPA (Closest Point of Approach). These are vital calculations for heavy metal objects traveling on, through or under fluids. |
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Posted: 11/12/2023 12:25:26 PM EDT
[#37]
When you get a captains license they make you do paper charting and plotting.
People struggle immensely as if they have never seen a map.. Really with GPS In your car, your phone, your watch reading a map seems like writing cursive. |
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Posted: 11/12/2023 12:26:40 PM EDT
[#38]
Quote HistoryQuoted: I started a new position w a medical supply co . We rely a lot on Garmin gps . First thing I said in our morning meeting was I’d like to get some maps issued to the trucks . I was not only poo pooed but actually mocked . These kids have no clue . GPS will get you from one stop to another. Maps will help you plan the order of your stops. Both are essential for efficient deliveries. |
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Posted: 11/12/2023 12:27:03 PM EDT
[#39]
Quote HistoryThat's some grade-A wife material right there. You gotta love a southern woman. |
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Posted: 11/12/2023 12:27:08 PM EDT
[#40]
Quote HistoryThose will be very useful when the nav sats are down (or turned off, or encrypted, or offset by algorithm) |
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Posted: 11/12/2023 12:27:25 PM EDT
[#41]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Maps might give you the ability. Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: Quoted: Electronic maps are, indeed, very poor at giving you big picture information. Screen size and resolution simply isn't sufficient. But, then again, maps can be notoriously bad at telling you where you are. Not to mention the age of maps and legends, the inaccuracies of that map to begin with, and so forth. Maps do not tell you where you are. Maps give you the ability to determine where you are. You have to do the work - It may seem nuanced, but that's the way it works.. A GPS, and a good map is a great combination, especially if you can use UTM for both. Depending on the Datum, you can use the GPS to navigate very close to any spot on a map. If we're just talking about roads and cities, then yes, a GPS is probably all you need. Both are tools. Both should be in your tool box. Fari enough. You have to do the work. (and know how) |
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Posted: 11/12/2023 12:27:26 PM EDT
[#42]
Kinda sounds like a guy worried because customers aren’t buying his paper maps much anymore. Just because we read them electronically now doesn’t mean we can’t read them anymore.
I’m sure there is some drop off, but not as bad as he’s saying. I kept a couple of paper maps in my car as a backup in case my GPS and phone had a problem. After ten years of never having to touch them once, I tossed them when I bought a new car. If I traveled to new places a lot, I’d keep one, but I don’t. |
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Posted: 11/12/2023 12:28:14 PM EDT
[#43]
Quote HistoryQuoted: If you really want to fuck them up tell them about relative bearing and true bearing! Headings and bearings mess up a lot of people.... |
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Posted: 11/12/2023 12:29:29 PM EDT
[#44]
Be interesting to see how many of today's offshore fishermen could find an artifical reef 15 - 20 miles offshore without their precious GPS (or LORAN previously).
Just a chart with compass headings, watch, tachometer, and compass. See you there.. |
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Posted: 11/12/2023 12:30:08 PM EDT
[#45]
Quote HistoryQuoted: That's just weird. Do you not have an innate sense of which way the cardinal directions are without referencing a GPS or map? Whatever, if it works for you, it works. Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: I'm struggling to imagine how someone would have trouble reading a damn map. Even if they're a couch potato surely they've been exposed to the concept through videogames? It's not difficult to wrap your head around. Especially when most nav systems display your position on a map. I always have mine set to that. Not sure how anyone keeps their bearings otherwise... I guess they don't care to. That's just weird. Do you not have an innate sense of which way the cardinal directions are without referencing a GPS or map? Whatever, if it works for you, it works. Don't. Which is exactly why seeing my direction of travel on a mapping app relative to north helps that. Ot beats keeping track of an ever-spinning compass rose. If I am moving to the right, I'm moving east. If I'm moving down, I'm moving south. When I get really carried away, like on long trips, I'll actually use the otherwise worthless maps on my car's nav system, but zoomed much dither out than the phone - it helps with SA... I just wish the maps weren't so worthless. |
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Posted: 11/12/2023 12:31:53 PM EDT
[#46]
Quote HistoryQuoted: If you can read/follow a GPS, you can read/follow a map. Extremely unlikely for most people. They can’t orient a map let alone figure out where they are on the map. |
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Posted: 11/12/2023 12:33:44 PM EDT
[#47]
What happens when your paper map gets wet or tears? Or your fiddly little compass breaks? If you can't tell where you are just by looking at the stars and knowing the land, you're doomed.
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Posted: 11/12/2023 12:34:18 PM EDT
[#48]
Quote HistoryQuoted: @CouncilOfDave Not too crazy a concept, relative bearing is the direction that something appears away from you v. your actual vector. Put another way, if something appears at your 1000, that is a relative bearing because if you are actually heading 330 (or NNW) then that something is actually bearing 300 (or WNW) from you. And if both are moving at a good clip, you can also figure out CPA (Closest Point of Approach). These are vital calculations for heavy metal objects traveling on, through or under fluids.
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Posted: 11/12/2023 12:37:11 PM EDT
[#49]
Quote HistoryQuote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: @CouncilOfDave Not too crazy a concept, relative bearing is the direction that something appears away from you v. your actual vector. Put another way, if something appears at your 1000, that is a relative bearing because if you are actually heading 330 (or NNW) then that something is actually bearing 300 (or WNW) from you. And if both are moving at a good clip, you can also figure out CPA (Closest Point of Approach). These are vital calculations for heavy metal objects traveling on, through or under fluids. www.amazon.com/dp/B002Y1DB54 |
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Posted: 11/12/2023 12:37:12 PM EDT
[#50]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Some people just follow the directions with no concept of where they are or where they're going. Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: If you can read/follow a GPS, you can read/follow a map. Some people just follow the directions with no concept of where they are or where they're going. |
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