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Quoted: Meh, no big loss for society. Sad people lost their lives but to care based on sportsy personalities is a misplaced life. View Quote View All Quotes View All Quotes Quoted: Quoted: Left Ohio State University this am on direct to Naples..... wonder who was on it... Meh, no big loss for society. Sad people lost their lives but to care based on sportsy personalities is a misplaced life. ![]() Pretty shitty attitude there. |
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Quoted: Is DEF the fluid used in diesel vehicles....probably for an EPA mandated reason? If so, how would it get into Jet-A fuel (assumed fuel for that plane)? View Quote Probably was not this due to the duration of the flight but. 5 gallon DEF jugs and 5 gallon PRIST jugs look very similar. Fluids both clear. Most all your ramp fuel trucks are diesel and take DEF. The 5 gallon PRIST jug hooks to the fuel system on the back of the truck and is injected into the fuel for those who want it. The guys running the fuel trucks sometimes don't carry the smartest melon on their shoulders. Lots of times these fluids area also stored together. For both engines to quit, it was definitely something like fuel starvation or flock of birds. From the pictures that fire is not that large. Could easily have been the fuel in the truck that was hit. Either way, good job crew for saving your people. RIP. |
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Quoted: Yeah, because sports people are the only ones at Ohio State. They don't have any professors or other employees. What an absolutely moronic statement. ![]() View Quote View All Quotes View All Quotes Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: Left Ohio State University this am on direct to Naples..... wonder who was on it... Meh, no big loss for society. Sad people lost their lives but to care based on sportsy personalities is a misplaced life. Yeah, because sports people are the only ones at Ohio State. They don't have any professors or other employees. What an absolutely moronic statement. ![]() Reference is OSU Airport/Don Scott Field - a public airport that's used by a lot more peeps than those with OSU affiliation. I've flown out of there numerous times. Interesting to see who the owner is. |
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![]() DUAL ENGINE FAILURE | Business Jet Crash on Highway I-75 near Naples, FL |
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I landed 24 hours before this accident at naples in a corporate jet. This hits close to home for me. Very busy this time of year with lots of vectoring for that field. Fuel contamination, but unlikely due to the duration of flight.
Fuel starvation is the one thing that would cause a dual engine flameout with such close timing of failures. Other than that, this sucks all around. Prayers for the pilots. |
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Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: Left Ohio State University this am on direct to Naples..... wonder who was on it... Meh, no big loss for society. Sad people lost their lives but to care based on sportsy personalities is a misplaced life. ![]() Pretty shitty attitude there. Perhaps I'm mistaken but I believe the intent was that sports figures are no more important than anyone else. |
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Quoted: Yea a person shaped and sized piece of burning aircraft debris that is falling from from the cockpit area where two people sit and happens to have the same silhouette of a human body is definitely not a human body. I only crewed an ARFF truck for three years. View Quote View All Quotes View All Quotes Quoted: Quoted: That looks much more like a portion of the aircraft falling away as it burns. Yea a person shaped and sized piece of burning aircraft debris that is falling from from the cockpit area where two people sit and happens to have the same silhouette of a human body is definitely not a human body. I only crewed an ARFF truck for three years. |
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Quoted: Meh, no big loss for society. Sad people lost their lives but to care based on sportsy personalities is a misplaced life. View Quote What do you do for a living, so I can cheer on the deaths of those in your career field! Those that lost their lives were the pilots, 2 people just doing a job when their machine stopped doing what it was supposed to, and their actions saved the lives of their passengers. |
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Did you fly AV8s? Must have bc Harrier pilots think they know everything.
“You didn’t see it because it wasn’t there!” |
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This is very sad.
My grandfather was an Engineer at Bombardier back in the 60s through 80s. He was a heavy smoking, heavy drinking, disagreeable fellow that took his job seriously. |
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Is it possibly something like a transfer pump or tank switch failed and it went down because a tank went dry and they couldn't/didn't switch tanks?
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Quoted: Is it possibly something like a transfer pump or tank switch failed and it went down because a tank went dry and they couldn't/didn't switch tanks? View Quote If it's anything like a CRJ there's simply a left/right tank, unless there's a CTR tank. I can't remember if the 604 has a fuel panel has one or not. You could train a monkey to fuel a CRJ. |
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The pilot was a close friend of some close friends of ours.
Homeschool dad. RIP. ![]() |
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![]() Hop-A-Jet Challenger 604 Crash Naples Fla. 9 Feb 2024 |
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Quoted: but did you die?!?!?! ![]() View Quote I actually did for .33 milliseconds! On a serious note, after the recent Clearwater crash it made me think about the fact I’m under the final approach for the local airport. I’m pretty sure I even said something in the thread. Now a plane has crashed on final approach to my local airport after flying over me. It is a bit of a strange feeling. I can tell you at the time the crash occurred, I was home with my lanai sliding door opened. I don’t remember hearing jet engines shortly before the crash. This makes me think the engines were already out when it went overhead. I’m very curious to see when exactly on the flight path it lost both engines. I also surprisingly don’t remember hearing the crash. By the time I got word of the crash I also couldn’t see any black smoke. I definitely could smell fuel outside. I’m not familiar with jet fuel, so I have no way of knowing what it was or if it was contaminated. It’s terrible the two pilots lost their lives. Miraculous the passengers survived. They, along with their friends and family, will all be in my thoughts and prayers. |
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Quoted: It's the same DEF. Used for the vehicles like fuel trucks. But FSII - Fuel System Icing Inhibitor - is added to aviation fuel. Both are colorless and there's been mishaps where DEF was added instead of FSII to the fuel. View Quote View All Quotes View All Quotes Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: Sure hope it wasn't DEF fluid contamination. "DEF" mentioned several times ITT. What is "DEF" in aircraft usage? Rather doubt if it is diesel DEF. It's the same DEF. Used for the vehicles like fuel trucks. But FSII - Fuel System Icing Inhibitor - is added to aviation fuel. Both are colorless and there's been mishaps where DEF was added instead of FSII to the fuel. DEF, as used for diesel engine exhaust after-treatment, is about 30% urea (ammonium nitrate) and 70% water. DEF in diesel or jet fuel would be disastrous! But no way would the problem have shown up that late in the flight. It would be like having water in the fuel tank of your car. And DEF is very corrosive. In diesel vehicles, IIRC, the DEF is injected into the exhaust stream to neutralize NOX (Nitrous Oxide). It is not used in the fuel! |
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Quoted: You know every time a little plane, not a twin jet, lands on a highway they try to land going with the flow of traffic cuz going opposite the flow of traffic you're bound to hit somebody and you might be able to find a clear space in between cars going with the traffic or at least they're doing 70 miles an hour when you land in the same direction View Quote Four or five years ago, there was a plane which landed on the shoulder of the road , on I-15, north of San Diego. It hit a parked car, killing the occupants of the car. Apparently, the driver pulled over to reset his GPS mapping, as the car had a safety feature that the GPS mapping could not be inputted unless the car was parked. Ironically, that safety feature was deadly…….on that particular day. |
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Quoted: DEF, as used for diesel engine exhaust after-treatment, is about 30% urea (ammonium nitrate) and 70% water. DEF in diesel or jet fuel would be disastrous! But no way would the problem have shown up that late in the flight. It would be like having water in the fuel tank of your car. And DEF is very corrosive. View Quote |
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Quoted: Is it possibly something like a transfer pump or tank switch failed and it went down because a tank went dry and they couldn't/didn't switch tanks? View Quote If you're going to be switching tanks or messing with fuel in the terminal environment, you're asking for trouble. I got lucky in IMC on an ILS approach where I got behind in a twin. Nothing happened but butt-puckering, but I never forgot that situation if I had a missed approach. |
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Taken from another message board
A few years back there was a skywest crj with the FO flying, he called for flaps and at the precise moment the captains arm was behind the power levers, the FO went to idle thrust. The 2 red paddles hit the captains arm and they went into cutoff. Can anyone confirm, I know nothing about a 604. If so this could be a plausible explanation. |
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I used to work for an employer that was located immediately adjacent to the Naples airport and spent more than a few lunchtimes sitting in my car, watching takeoffs and landings.
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Quoted: Interesting. I thought ammonium nitrate and diesel fuel had a chemical reaction when mixed. (Oklahoma City bombing) View Quote View All Quotes View All Quotes Quoted: Quoted: DEF, as used for diesel engine exhaust after-treatment, is about 30% urea (ammonium nitrate) and 70% water. DEF in diesel or jet fuel would be disastrous! But no way would the problem have shown up that late in the flight. It would be like having water in the fuel tank of your car. And DEF is very corrosive. Not sure if there would be a reaction. ANFO (ammonium nitrate fuel oil) explosives are usually made with pelletized AN fertilizer which has a much higher level of AN than DEF. The mixture of AN and fuel oil is stable until an initiator like a blasting cap is used to set it off. ETA: a bit of research indicates that Urea, the nitrogen component in DEF, is somewhat chemically different than the AN in fertilizer. Wish I had paid more attention to chemistry stuff in HS but maybe better that I didn't. |
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Quoted: https://www.ar15.com/media/mediaFiles/32274/Screenshot_2024-02-10_at_22-06-56_Hop-A--3125261.JPG https://www.ar15.com/media/mediaFiles/32274/Screenshot_2024-02-10_at_22-06-42_Hop-A--3125262.JPG View Quote Yep...dual engine failures are rarely trained in the sim as they are extremely unlikely. I used to fly the big brother to the Challenger, which is the CRJ. For giggles, they had us look up the double engine failure checklist one day. It was 2.5 pages of items to complete. Hard to get that check list completed even from a cruise altitude. |
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This was posted as a comment on the blancolirio YouTube video about this.
![]() Hop-A-Jet Challenger 604 Crash Naples Fla. 9 Feb 2024 I've re-formatted but left the entire text intact. Seems to me like the most-likely scenario if the information presented about the pedestal, flaps, throttles, etc. is accurate. This happened once at the Skywest on a CRJ200 which has the EXACT same pedestal as the 604. Same type rating too I believe. CL-65. In that event, the FO was flying called and called for flaps. As the CA reached over to select the flap lever, the FO pulled the thrust to idle. The red switches that allow the thrust levers to continue past idle into shutoff got bumped by the CA's arm upward. So instead of the thrust coming to idle, they continued down through the detent into shutoff. That crew was able to get them relit. Fortunately they were still high enough. Im thinking maybe this happened here. The CRJ200 does have the same exact pedestal as the 604. Terrible design. The flap handle is on the FO's side forward of the thrust levers when they are at idle. So to extend flaps the CA regularly has to reach over, or behind the thrust levers to get his hand in there. This can put the CA's forearm directly under the lifting cutoff switches on the thrust levers. They are the little red tabs on the thrust levers if you bring up an image. On a right base like this, the FO is looking out the right window for the field, not noticing where the CA's arm is. Pulls the thrust to idle and the momentum of that pull hits the CA"S forearm lifts the switches and into shutoff. Even if they put the thrust levers immediately back to idle they wouldn't get a relight. Most modern airliners have an auto relight feature. Not this plane. They would have had to turn the ignition on and get enough speed to do a windmill relight. There's almost no way they ran out of fuel. For one, the crash was heavily engulfed in flames and two the likelihood of not noticing their fuel was low on a 2 hr flight (right?) just seems so unlikely that I'd rule that out. They may have had a deferred fuel gauge and just assumed they had enough. But typically on a fuel exhaustion on a jet like this, one engine fails first and then the other some time later bc they feed from separate tanks which on that airplane are rarely ever balanced exactly. Especially if they ran the APU on the ground bc it just draws from one tank causing an regular acceptable imbalance by default. Just my 2 cents. Rest in peace brothers. View Quote |
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Quoted: Perhaps I'm mistaken but I believe the intent was that sports figures are no more important than anyone else. View Quote View All Quotes View All Quotes Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: Left Ohio State University this am on direct to Naples..... wonder who was on it... Meh, no big loss for society. Sad people lost their lives but to care based on sportsy personalities is a misplaced life. ![]() Pretty shitty attitude there. Perhaps I'm mistaken but I believe the intent was that sports figures are no more important than anyone else. With the “no big loss for society” comment he was putting them below everyone else. |
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Quoted: Taken from another message board A few years back there was a skywest crj with the FO flying, he called for flaps and at the precise moment the captains arm was behind the power levers, the FO went to idle thrust. The 2 red paddles hit the captains arm and they went into cutoff. Can anyone confirm, I know nothing about a 604. If so this could be a plausible explanation. View Quote I'll take never happened for $1000. |
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Quoted: I'll take never happened for $1000. View Quote ![]() I can see it. Throttles are the levers in the middle and flaps are the lever to the right. The red switches are right under the throttles. |
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Quoted: https://www.ar15.com/media/mediaFiles/227964/5ai2ou8txu931-2763443888__1__jpg-3125545.JPG I can see it. Throttles are the levers in the middle and flaps are the lever to the right. The red switches are right under the throttles. View Quote How long does a re-light take if that were to happen? |
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https://skybrary.aero/accidents-and-incidents/crj2-en-route-south-santander-spain-2009
Here’s an incident from Spain where the engines were inadvertently shutdown in-flight on a CRJ-200. Extensive investigation found that all aircraft systems had functioned normally during the incident flight and it was concluded that the action of the PF in taking both thrust levers below the Idle position at the lower end of the ‘Flight’ range after overriding the mechanical stops designed to prevent inadvertent action to this effect was the cause of the shutdown. View Quote I can’t find an equivalent SkyWest incident. The Challenger 604 appears to have the same design of throttles, etc. between the pilots. |
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Quoted: Quoted: Taken from another message board A few years back there was a skywest crj with the FO flying, he called for flaps and at the precise moment the captains arm was behind the power levers, the FO went to idle thrust. The 2 red paddles hit the captains arm and they went into cutoff. Can anyone confirm, I know nothing about a 604. If so this could be a plausible explanation. I'll take never happened for $1000. Happened to a Delta 767 taking off from LAX many years ago. |
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Quoted: DEF, as used for diesel engine exhaust after-treatment, is about 30% urea (ammonium nitrate) and 70% water. DEF in diesel or jet fuel would be disastrous! But no way would the problem have shown up that late in the flight. It would be like having water in the fuel tank of your car. And DEF is very corrosive. In diesel vehicles, IIRC, the DEF is injected into the exhaust stream to neutralize NOX (Nitrous Oxide). It is not used in the fuel! View Quote View All Quotes View All Quotes Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: Sure hope it wasn't DEF fluid contamination. "DEF" mentioned several times ITT. What is "DEF" in aircraft usage? Rather doubt if it is diesel DEF. It's the same DEF. Used for the vehicles like fuel trucks. But FSII - Fuel System Icing Inhibitor - is added to aviation fuel. Both are colorless and there's been mishaps where DEF was added instead of FSII to the fuel. DEF, as used for diesel engine exhaust after-treatment, is about 30% urea (ammonium nitrate) and 70% water. DEF in diesel or jet fuel would be disastrous! But no way would the problem have shown up that late in the flight. It would be like having water in the fuel tank of your car. And DEF is very corrosive. In diesel vehicles, IIRC, the DEF is injected into the exhaust stream to neutralize NOX (Nitrous Oxide). It is not used in the fuel! How the hell you gonna get DEF into this aircraft? The 604 is a single point fueling system, just like the CRJ. And I'm sure the FBO is just as busy as ours was, the prist is put in at the distribution fuel point before it shows up at the FBO. |
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Quoted: How the hell you gonna get DEF into this aircraft? The 604 is a single point fueling system, just like the CRJ. And I'm sure the FBO is just as busy as ours was, the prist is put in at the distribution fuel point before it shows up at the FBO. View Quote Some FBOs mix prist at the truck as it's going into the aircraft. It's contained in a maybe 10 gallon jug on the truck and injected into the fuel as it's being pumped into the aircraft. Doesn't matter if it's overwing or single point. The trucks have a small lever that the fueler selects to have it inject prist. Line personnel are usually the ones to fill that jug. When I worked the line, we received prist in 55 gallon drums and filled up the truck containers from those. |
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The insurance adjuster is gonna have to read that email twice |
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Quoted: This was posted as a comment on the blancolirio YouTube video about this. ![]() I've re-formatted but left the entire text intact. Seems to me like the most-likely scenario if the information presented about the pedestal, flaps, throttles, etc. is accurate. View Quote 604 cockpit layout ![]() |
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Quoted: That is obvious, but I was just asking because I don’t know. There’s a lot more to it than twisting the key on my Piper. View Quote View All Quotes View All Quotes Quoted: Quoted: A lot longer than they had at that altitude. That is obvious, but I was just asking because I don’t know. There’s a lot more to it than twisting the key on my Piper. On the Gulfstream IV assuming bleed air was available from the APU, from start sequence initiation to stable idle thrust is about 35 to 40 seconds on a healthy engine. But you’re assuming there’s was no fuel issues here. |
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