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Posted: 11/14/2023 11:45:09 PM EDT
[#1]
Quote HistoryQuoted: I love my shotguns, but don't really disagree. This. |
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Posted: 11/14/2023 11:45:19 PM EDT
[#2]
Quote HistoryQuoted: @03RN Lol, I didn't get a ping. Not directed at you The fighting shotgun is devastating. If you yokals think it's only good for geese then you're incredibly ignorant at it usage. In a city I'd be perfectly confident in only having a shotgun as long as I had shells. |
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Posted: 11/14/2023 11:46:44 PM EDT
[#3]
Quote HistoryQuoted: were they fighting ducks there? Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: Laughs in Fallujah were they fighting ducks there? No I wasn't, which is why my shotgun is next to my bed |
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Posted: 11/14/2023 11:48:08 PM EDT
[#4]
And then they invented magazine fed shotguns, and everything changed.
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Posted: 11/14/2023 11:49:31 PM EDT
[#5]
I only have a few shotguns. All of them are either for hunting or gaming.
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Posted: 11/14/2023 11:50:17 PM EDT
[#6]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Oh undoubtedly better for the first 7 or 8 rounds or whatever their capacity. But I had a 590…often with a bayonet. ETA…you guessed it, Marine Corps Security Forces. 
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Posted: 11/14/2023 11:53:21 PM EDT
[#7]
 No. Disagree. |
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Posted: 11/14/2023 11:53:26 PM EDT
[#8]
As someone who got bored and got into revolver competition, I find it a bit harder to knock combat shotgun enthusiasts.
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Posted: 11/14/2023 11:54:57 PM EDT
[#9]
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Posted: 11/14/2023 11:55:38 PM EDT
[#10]
I am pretty sure they shoot rubber bullets and buckshot better. Dragons breath looks cooler than tracers. 12 gauges are cool. That said i would rather have an AR for all the reasons OP mentioned
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Posted: 11/14/2023 11:56:05 PM EDT
[#11]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Oh undoubtedly better for the first 7 or 8 rounds or whatever their capacity. But I had a 590…often with a bayonet. ETA…you guessed it, Marine Corps Security Forces. Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: Try a 1301 or M4 Oh undoubtedly better for the first 7 or 8 rounds or whatever their capacity. But I had a 590…often with a bayonet. ETA…you guessed it, Marine Corps Security Forces. As a fellow SF Marine if you haven't actually used a shotgun then you should keep your mouth shut about their effectiveness. |
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Posted: 11/14/2023 11:57:59 PM EDT
[#12]
1301 is all sorts of useful in populated areas.
Holy shit you could have had probably have a few guys with those completely take the streets back back in the summer of 2020 |
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Posted: 11/14/2023 11:58:50 PM EDT
[#13]
Quote HistoryQuoted: As a fellow SF Marine if you haven't actually used a shotgun then you should keep your mouth shut about their effectiveness. 
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Posted: 11/15/2023 12:00:07 AM EDT
[#14]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Shot is capable of going further than you think it will. Your idea of it not being able to leave your property is false. At a mear 27 degrees, #8 shot can travel ABOUT 230 yards. 00 buckshot ABOUT 66o yards, and a 12 g slug ABOUT 1200 yards. The very first police shooting I witnessed with buckshot was a hit on a robber at a measured 117 feet. Two pellets dropped him instantly. The rest made a mess out of a bread truck windshield all the way across the parking lot. (maybe 100 yards) Short stroking is a gunshop fairy tale. I've never done it and I've never seen anyone do it under real world conditions. If you do it, you are untrained on the weapon and would fuck up just about any OTHER weapon you were never trained on. As for effectiveness, it's never failed to stop shenanigans the moment I pointed it at somebody. Sometimes I didn't even give commands. You can keyboard commando all you want, shotguns work very well. So well in my first hand experience that I have them scattered thru out the house and the AR's stay in the safe. Same thing with revolvers. My wife keeps hers in the kitchen over the coffee cups. |
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Posted: 11/15/2023 12:00:40 AM EDT
[#15]
Quote HistoryQuoted: They were popular during a time of trench warfare. Different Era. Trenches and hallways aren't effectively any different from each other, and at any rate trenches never went away so it isn't a different era at all. But in WWI, your option was a 4 foot long bolt action rifle or a pump shotgun. There's an obvious close-quarters advantage for the shotgun there. When we have intermediate cartridge, autoloading carbines, the shotgun is less desirable than it used to be. |
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Posted: 11/15/2023 12:03:06 AM EDT
[#16]
Quote HistoryWhere did you have the sights installed on that shockwave? |
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Posted: 11/15/2023 12:03:30 AM EDT
[#17]
I have plenty of experience with shotguns. Other than breaching, they would not be my first choice in weapon. Even for breaching I would rather use other means.
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Posted: 11/15/2023 12:07:01 AM EDT
[#18]
Quote HistoryQuoted: The very first police shooting I witnessed with buckshot was a hit on a robber at a measured 117 feet. Two pellets dropped him instantly. The rest made a mess out of a bread truck windshield all the way across the parking lot. (maybe 100 yards) Short stroking is a gunshop fairy tale. I've never done it and I've never seen anyone do it under real world conditions. If you do it, you are untrained on the weapon and would fuck up just about any OTHER weapon you were never trained on. As for effectiveness, it's never failed to stop shenanigans the moment I pointed it at somebody. Sometimes I didn't even give commands. You can keyboard commando all you want, shotguns work very well. So well in my first hand experience that I have them scattered thru out the house and the AR's stay in the safe. Same thing with revolvers. My wife keeps hers in the kitchen over the coffee cups. Was the keyboard commando comment directed at me? Lmao .... |
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Posted: 11/15/2023 12:08:32 AM EDT
[#19]
A friend of mine emptied a 870 into an armed robber at a distance of about 10’. Winchester Ranger 00 Buck. Every pellet connected. The robber survived long enough for the fire department and ambulance to arrive, get loaded into the ambulance, and be driven to the hospital. He died in the operating room. My friend loaded slugs only following that shooting.
Louis Awerbuck loaded slugs only in his shotguns. I’ve harvested deer that had healed over buckshot wounds from prior years hunting season. That said, a quality copper plated #1 or larger buckshot is devastating at close range In unobstructed shots against someone not wearing body armor. |
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Posted: 11/15/2023 12:09:32 AM EDT
[#20]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Just fire two shots.... Then while they charge in, giggling while you're supposedly reloading, give 'em the other 3-5 in the face. |
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Posted: 11/15/2023 12:10:28 AM EDT
[#21]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Trenches and hallways aren't effectively any different from each other, and at any rate trenches never went away so it isn't a different era at all. But in WWI, your option was a 4 foot long bolt action rifle or a pump shotgun. There's an obvious close-quarters advantage for the shotgun there. When we have intermediate cartridge, autoloading carbines, the shotgun is less desirable than it used to be. Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: They were popular during a time of trench warfare. Different Era. Trenches and hallways aren't effectively any different from each other, and at any rate trenches never went away so it isn't a different era at all. But in WWI, your option was a 4 foot long bolt action rifle or a pump shotgun. There's an obvious close-quarters advantage for the shotgun there. When we have intermediate cartridge, autoloading carbines, the shotgun is less desirable than it used to be. There's a reason there's a 12 gauge next to me and not an intermediate cartridge. There is a significant performance gap. |
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Posted: 11/15/2023 12:10:46 AM EDT
[#22]
Quote HistoryQuoted: As a fellow SF Marine if you haven't actually used a shotgun then you should keep your mouth shut about their effectiveness. Maybe bring it down a notch…or don’t, I don’t give a fuck. I never said they won’t kill people. I am sure your whole squad was issued them right? No, They weren’t and therein lies the point. But you are getting a little to spun up over a bit of tongue in cheek. |
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Posted: 11/15/2023 12:12:02 AM EDT
[#23]
Quote HistoryQuoted: They fly under the radar of the media and gun hating politicians. If you were to use one to defend your home it won't look like your some military wannabe terrorist (according to the media) Speak for yourself, sir.  Attached File
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Posted: 11/15/2023 12:12:28 AM EDT
[#24]
I still have the most fun shooting a shotgun. Ringing steel with slugs from 100+ yards or shooting clays, it’s just a damn fun time.
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Posted: 11/15/2023 12:12:46 AM EDT
[#25]
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Posted: 11/15/2023 12:13:10 AM EDT
[#26]
Quote HistoryQuoted: There's a reason there's a 12 gauge next to me and not an intermediate cartridge. There is a significant performance gap. Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: Quoted: They were popular during a time of trench warfare. Different Era. Trenches and hallways aren't effectively any different from each other, and at any rate trenches never went away so it isn't a different era at all. But in WWI, your option was a 4 foot long bolt action rifle or a pump shotgun. There's an obvious close-quarters advantage for the shotgun there. When we have intermediate cartridge, autoloading carbines, the shotgun is less desirable than it used to be. There's a reason there's a 12 gauge next to me and not an intermediate cartridge. There is a significant performance gap. No there's not, you're just emotionally attached to it. Which is fine, it's not like it won't kill people still. |
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Posted: 11/15/2023 12:13:52 AM EDT
[#27]
Quote HistoryQuoted: A friend of mine emptied a 870 into an armed robber at a distance of about 10’. Winchester Ranger 00 Buck. Every pellet connected. The robber survived long enough for the fire department and ambulance to arrive, get loaded into the ambulance, and be driven to the hospital. He died in the operating room. My friend loaded slugs only following that shooting. Louis Awerbuck loaded slugs only in his shotguns. I’ve harvested deer that had healed over buckshot wounds from prior years hunting season. That said, a quality copper plated #1 or larger buckshot is devastating at close range In unobstructed shots against someone not wearing body armor. I took a Louis Awerbuck class in 04 before my time in Fallujah. He spoke very highly of buckshot inside 25 yards. Inside 25yards buckshot is final. That's with legacy buckshot. With flight control I'd stretch that to 50. |
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Posted: 11/15/2023 12:14:16 AM EDT
[#28]
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Posted: 11/15/2023 12:16:17 AM EDT
[#29]
They have their place. Like during weapons restrictions on a bug hunt.
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Posted: 11/15/2023 12:17:19 AM EDT
[#30]
Quote HistoryQuoted: I took a Louis Awerbuck class in 04 before my time in Fallujah. He spoke very highly of buckshot inside 25 yards. Inside 25yards buckshot is final. That's with legacy buckshot. With flight control I'd stretch that to 50. Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: A friend of mine emptied a 870 into an armed robber at a distance of about 10’. Winchester Ranger 00 Buck. Every pellet connected. The robber survived long enough for the fire department and ambulance to arrive, get loaded into the ambulance, and be driven to the hospital. He died in the operating room. My friend loaded slugs only following that shooting. Louis Awerbuck loaded slugs only in his shotguns. I’ve harvested deer that had healed over buckshot wounds from prior years hunting season. That said, a quality copper plated #1 or larger buckshot is devastating at close range In unobstructed shots against someone not wearing body armor. I took a Louis Awerbuck class in 04 before my time in Fallujah. He spoke very highly of buckshot inside 25 yards. Inside 25yards buckshot is final. That's with legacy buckshot. With flight control I'd stretch that to 50. Semper Fi Mac Edit: that'll give it to Jody shit the ragman real good. '"Cause Jody took your girl and gone!" 
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Posted: 11/15/2023 12:18:45 AM EDT
[#31]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Maybe bring it down a notch…or don’t, I don’t give a fuck. I never said they won’t kill people. I am sure your whole squad was issued them right? No, They weren’t and therein lies the point. But you are getting a little to spun up over a bit of tongue in cheek. Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: As a fellow SF Marine if you haven't actually used a shotgun then you should keep your mouth shut about their effectiveness. Maybe bring it down a notch…or don’t, I don’t give a fuck. I never said they won’t kill people. I am sure your whole squad was issued them right? No, They weren’t and therein lies the point. But you are getting a little to spun up over a bit of tongue in cheek. If I'm getting spun up it's because people with no idea of what shotguns bring to the table feel like they need to spout off about them. Of course it's not a replacement for rifles in modern day infantry tactics. So maybe you should bring it down a notch, or dont because it's your ignorance on display. |
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Posted: 11/15/2023 12:18:52 AM EDT
[#32]
I think the term “combat shotgun” is stupid. I also think a semi auto such as a 1301 properly setup would absolutely wreck anyone in a home defense situation. I don’t care if it is a group of attackers. When they see their buddy hit with a couple blasts of buckshot it will probably suck the desire to continue right out of them. I don’t worry about people wearing armor. In this day you should expect anyone you may have to shoot to be wearing armor. Hit them with more rounds. Pelvic or neck/head for second round if the center mass was ineffective. That all being said, if we are talking outside of the home I would pick a rifle 99% of the time, as would the majority here probably.
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Posted: 11/15/2023 12:21:17 AM EDT
[#33]
Quoted: I carried one for years. A Mossberg 590. Other than shooting birds and locks there is really nothing they do better than an AR. They are easy to short stroke under stress. Easy to miss with, contrary to popular belief. They have a low capacity and are slow as shit to reload. Sure they deal some damage but overall they suck. Not to mention the black and blue shoulders from firing 100 plus slugs a day in training. But…because I am an old(not too old) and sentimental bastard I think I am going to get a 590. Anyway, it will be cool to have one that doesn’t rattle like a steam engine. https://www.ar15.com/media/mediaFiles/191077/IMG_8763_jpeg-3027889.JPG ETA: don’t get too mad, I know I am pushing buttons. But mostly I really do mean it. That doesn’t mean they aren’t awesome. lol |
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Posted: 11/15/2023 12:22:22 AM EDT
[#34]
Quote HistoryQuoted: No there's not, you're just emotionally attached to it. Which is fine, it's not like it won't kill people still. Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: They were popular during a time of trench warfare. Different Era. Trenches and hallways aren't effectively any different from each other, and at any rate trenches never went away so it isn't a different era at all. But in WWI, your option was a 4 foot long bolt action rifle or a pump shotgun. There's an obvious close-quarters advantage for the shotgun there. When we have intermediate cartridge, autoloading carbines, the shotgun is less desirable than it used to be. There's a reason there's a 12 gauge next to me and not an intermediate cartridge. There is a significant performance gap. No there's not, you're just emotionally attached to it. Which is fine, it's not like it won't kill people still. There's a significant performance gap between a 12gauge and a 556. This idea that a 556 is equal to a 12 gauge is laughable. Are you that ignorant to think ab77 gr bullet at 2800fps will perform the same as 1 ounce at 1400fps? Seriously I've used both vs men and deer and there is no comparison. |
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Posted: 11/15/2023 12:24:12 AM EDT
[#35]
Quote HistoryQuoted: If I'm getting spun up it's because people with no idea of what shotguns bring to the table feel like they need to spout off about them. Of course it's not a replacement for rifles in modern day infantry tactics. So maybe you should bring it down a notch, or dont because it's your ignorance on display. Alright man, you are awesome. You win. Shot guns are the absolute bestest when you are defending your home at close range against one person and when you are surrounded by a squad of Marines with rifles and light machine guns. Happy now? Fuck man. You are reading too much into this so enjoy whatever pithy comments you want to give. |
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Posted: 11/15/2023 12:25:03 AM EDT
[#36]
they are good at rearranging flesh at close range though.
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Posted: 11/15/2023 12:25:28 AM EDT
[#37]
Quote HistoryQuoted: There's a significant performance gap between a 12gauge and a 556. This idea that a 556 is equal to a 12 gauge is laughable. Are you that ignorant to think ab77 gr bullet at 2800fps will perform the same as 1 ounce at 1400fps? Seriously I've used both vs men and deer and there is no comparison. Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: They were popular during a time of trench warfare. Different Era. Trenches and hallways aren't effectively any different from each other, and at any rate trenches never went away so it isn't a different era at all. But in WWI, your option was a 4 foot long bolt action rifle or a pump shotgun. There's an obvious close-quarters advantage for the shotgun there. When we have intermediate cartridge, autoloading carbines, the shotgun is less desirable than it used to be. There's a reason there's a 12 gauge next to me and not an intermediate cartridge. There is a significant performance gap. No there's not, you're just emotionally attached to it. Which is fine, it's not like it won't kill people still. There's a significant performance gap between a 12gauge and a 556. This idea that a 556 is equal to a 12 gauge is laughable. Are you that ignorant to think ab77 gr bullet at 2800fps will perform the same as 1 ounce at 1400fps? Seriously I've used both vs men and deer and there is no comparison. I've got some Florida black hull that will go even a little faster than that. It literally whistles out of the end of the barrel if you lube it right. Lol I know what I've got man. |
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Posted: 11/15/2023 12:29:03 AM EDT
[#38]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Buckshot does the job within its usefully range. A shotgun still has its uses.  https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QwTDxr9St-0LOL! did he really just ask the dude he blasted if he was good?! "hey man you good?"  .
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Posted: 11/15/2023 12:29:26 AM EDT
[#39]
Quote HistoryQuoted: There's a significant performance gap between a 12gauge and a 556. This idea that a 556 is equal to a 12 gauge is laughable. Are you that ignorant to think ab77 gr bullet at 2800fps will perform the same as 1 ounce at 1400fps? Seriously I've used both vs men and deer and there is no comparison. Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: They were popular during a time of trench warfare. Different Era. Trenches and hallways aren't effectively any different from each other, and at any rate trenches never went away so it isn't a different era at all. But in WWI, your option was a 4 foot long bolt action rifle or a pump shotgun. There's an obvious close-quarters advantage for the shotgun there. When we have intermediate cartridge, autoloading carbines, the shotgun is less desirable than it used to be. There's a reason there's a 12 gauge next to me and not an intermediate cartridge. There is a significant performance gap. No there's not, you're just emotionally attached to it. Which is fine, it's not like it won't kill people still. There's a significant performance gap between a 12gauge and a 556. This idea that a 556 is equal to a 12 gauge is laughable. Are you that ignorant to think ab77 gr bullet at 2800fps will perform the same as 1 ounce at 1400fps? Seriously I've used both vs men and deer and there is no comparison. That only makes sense if the only performance measure in existence is energy on target. It isn't. |
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Posted: 11/15/2023 12:29:33 AM EDT
[#40]
Quote HistoryQuoted: They fly under the radar of the media and gun hating politicians. If you were to use one to defend your home it won't look like your some military wannabe terrorist (according to the media) Not really. There have been numerous HD cases where the person used an AR. They try not to draw attention to it, so they can claim they're never used for self defense. |
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Posted: 11/15/2023 12:29:34 AM EDT
[#41]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Alright man, you are awesome. You win. Shot guns are the absolute bestest when you are defending your home at close range against one person and when you are surrounded by a squad of Marines with rifles and light machine guns. Happy now? Fuck man. You are reading too much into this so enjoy whatever pithy comments you want to give. Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: If I'm getting spun up it's because people with no idea of what shotguns bring to the table feel like they need to spout off about them. Of course it's not a replacement for rifles in modern day infantry tactics. So maybe you should bring it down a notch, or dont because it's your ignorance on display. Alright man, you are awesome. You win. Shot guns are the absolute bestest when you are defending your home at close range against one person and when you are surrounded by a squad of Marines with rifles and light machine guns. Happy now? Fuck man. You are reading too much into this so enjoy whatever pithy comments you want to give. His argument is shot for shot. A 12ga > 5.56 I also think you are right from your OP. It has its limitations but when a slug or full buck loads hits COM people drop like a sack of potatoes. |
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Posted: 11/15/2023 12:30:03 AM EDT
[#42]
Quote HistoryQuoted: If I'm getting spun up it's because people with no idea of what shotguns bring to the table feel like they need to spout off about them. Of course it's not a replacement for rifles in modern day infantry tactics. So maybe you should bring it down a notch, or dont because it's your ignorance on display. Or maybe some of us have a shit ton of experience with them and realize the massive limitations and narrow scope of them and feel other weapons are better suited for the job of home defense or room clearing. I enjoy shotguns both tactical shotguns like the m4 and classic double barrel shotguns. But when it comes to home defense, clearing rooms, or property defense, I am not reaching for a shotgun. |
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Posted: 11/15/2023 12:30:18 AM EDT
[#43]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Alright man, you are awesome. You win. Shot guns are the absolute bestest when you are defending your home at close range against one person and when you are surrounded by a squad of Marines with rifles and light machine guns. Happy now? Fuck man. You are reading too much into this so enjoy whatever pithy comments you want to give. Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: If I'm getting spun up it's because people with no idea of what shotguns bring to the table feel like they need to spout off about them. Of course it's not a replacement for rifles in modern day infantry tactics. So maybe you should bring it down a notch, or dont because it's your ignorance on display. Alright man, you are awesome. You win. Shot guns are the absolute bestest when you are defending your home at close range against one person and when you are surrounded by a squad of Marines with rifles and light machine guns. Happy now? Fuck man. You are reading too much into this so enjoy whatever pithy comments you want to give. Dude man chill out Seriously, pm me if something is going on because this isn't your normal filson loving schtick. |
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Posted: 11/15/2023 12:31:06 AM EDT
[#44]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Short stroking is eliminated with a proven semiautomatic design, but everything else is correct. A shotgun is good for a self defense situation where you are facing a limited number of attackers, at short range (but not too short because shotguns are long), and are not wearing body armor. In that situation I'd say they are equal to or perhaps superior to a rifle. In every other situation...nope. I still want an A300 for the cool factor though. I would love to hear some reports of guys in armor eating slugs and shrugging it off. I don't believe it. From a few clay and plate videos vs slugs it looks to me like a close range slug is just fine versus plates. It doesn't have to penetrate if it dumps 3000 ft lbs at close range. |
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Posted: 11/15/2023 12:31:35 AM EDT
[#45]
But, how are they on skunks? |
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Posted: 11/15/2023 12:31:53 AM EDT
[#46]
Quote HistoryQuoted: His argument is shot for shot. A 12ga > 5.56 I also think you are right from your OP. It has its limitations but when a slug or full buck loads hits COM people drop like a sack of potatoes. I wouldn’t argue that. In fact I haven’t argued that. |
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Posted: 11/15/2023 12:32:08 AM EDT
[#47]
Right tool for the job and all that. There is no cheaper or easier way to put down more significant damage from a shoulder fired weapon. It doesn’t take a rocket scientist to know and work within its limitations either.
Go to :54. Semi graphic.  Ego Battle Escalates Badly for Bakery Owner's Son | Active Self Protection How many here are going to be stepping into combat tomorrow? Do you own more guns than you can carry into combat at one time? Or is it a preference or financial issue that you’re validating by saying a gun has no purpose? Buy guns. Shoot guns. Have fun and learn skills you will hopefully never need. |
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Posted: 11/15/2023 12:32:36 AM EDT
[#48]
Quote HistoryQuoted: That only makes sense if the only performance measure in existence is energy on target. It isn't. Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: They were popular during a time of trench warfare. Different Era. Trenches and hallways aren't effectively any different from each other, and at any rate trenches never went away so it isn't a different era at all. But in WWI, your option was a 4 foot long bolt action rifle or a pump shotgun. There's an obvious close-quarters advantage for the shotgun there. When we have intermediate cartridge, autoloading carbines, the shotgun is less desirable than it used to be. There's a reason there's a 12 gauge next to me and not an intermediate cartridge. There is a significant performance gap. No there's not, you're just emotionally attached to it. Which is fine, it's not like it won't kill people still. There's a significant performance gap between a 12gauge and a 556. This idea that a 556 is equal to a 12 gauge is laughable. Are you that ignorant to think ab77 gr bullet at 2800fps will perform the same as 1 ounce at 1400fps? Seriously I've used both vs men and deer and there is no comparison. That only makes sense if the only performance measure in existence is energy on target. It isn't. The performance measure is what happens after you pull the trigger. I get you haven't probably shot many people or game but the difference between a 12gauge and a 556 is pretty significant. |
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Posted: 11/15/2023 12:32:45 AM EDT
[#49]
Quote HistoryQuoted: As a fellow SF Marine if you haven't actually used a shotgun then you should keep your mouth shut about their effectiveness. |
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Posted: 11/15/2023 12:34:43 AM EDT
[#50]
Quote HistoryQuoted: I love my shotguns, but don't really disagree. FPNI like a mofo. |
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