No shit... Can't even ask a 6.8 question without mobilizing the entire army.

-Stooxie

Speaking of ammo availability, here's something posted today in another forum:

Just a lonely datapoint, but a real world observation that you won't see around here where the Grendel Army is poised and ready to destroy all who oppose.

-Stooxie

Sure it's worth it.  So is an AR10.  Pick which one you like.

QFT. In the same boat, I've got tons of 6.8 bullets as well as mags and reloading components...but i would do grendel if I was starting at 0.

That said, mine is very light and handy with a 14.5" barrel when a can isn't attached. I carry it regularly on the lease, because it will take down anything out there and does reasonably well at 500yd

I have 2 6.8's and am building up a pistol . Been in the 6.8 game since I worked at Barrett and we built uppers for SF and the Marine Corps FAST teams.

6.5G has only one advantage over 6.8SPC:  those long skinny bullets that fly straighter.

Inside 200 yards:  6.8SPC wins
200-350:  roughly equal
350 +:  6.5G wins

Past roughly 400-450 yards, neither one has the retained energy to make ethical kills.
That mean that the 6.5G's advantage is almost all for paper punching at distance.

6.5G bolts are weaker, due to the larger head diameter.  That doesn't mean there are lots of broken bolts.

If you already have an AR chambered in 5.56, do yourself a favor and buy some quality ammo like gold dots or some black hills TMK. They preform very well and will meet you needs. If not, build whatever interests you the most and shoot it because bullets and shot placement matter a lot more than headstamps.

Great post.

There have been lots of great posts in here.

Thank you to all who have posted in this thread. You have given me lots to look into, & investigate, & tons of YouTube videos to watch.

I didn't know the world of 6+ cartridges was so loaded with fanatics.

Same here, excellent for whitetail in my AO

@Latency - that build deserves a shorter can!

I built a 6.8 for my first gun.  Eventually converted it to 5.56 so I could actually shoot it.  Ammos too pricey and I wasn't doing anything with it that would justify the cost.  Fast forward to today 10 years later and I'm doing a 6.5 grendel SBR.  6.8 wasn't even considered.   They're pretty similar ballistically until you get past 500 where the grendel starts to get ahead but its not night and day like the 308 and 6.5 creedmoor.

I would just get the grendel if you already have a 5.56.

I'm working on my third 6.8 build.  Currently I've got a 16" and a 12.5".  My next will be shorter, probably 7.5 inches.  I've got a lot of the Gold Dot 6.8 that I picked up at a reasonable price.  It will do about 2400fps from an  8 inch barrel.  So this next build will be all out PDW sized.  Probably a Maxim PDW stock, 7" 2A rail, 7.5" barrel, LWRC 6.8 bolt, ADM ambi lower and a Dead Air Wolf in K configuration.  So far I've got the bolt and rail

That's exactly what I had envisioned building. Or very close to it.

To each his own, but the above line keeps getting repeated and it's the primary contradiction upon which so much of the Grendel argument rests. What the line SHOULD read is:

"6.8 SPC has higher velocity and energy for any given barrel length until about 400 yards, at which point 6.5 Grendel's higher BC allows it to retain more velocity for longer." 6.5 Grendel is a worse performer until the 6.8 SPC SLOWS DOWN enough to concede to 6.5's higher BC. Period.

THAT would be an accurate statement. Thus, one could decide logically based on their intended use and distances. BOTH cartridges are a compromise in some way, as are all cartridges. It is simply untrue to say "they are the same until 500 yards."

I'm not trying to be the 6.8 fanatic, just trying to get us to make realistic comparisons and arguments. If someone is shooting long distance or really thinks that's important, by all means, shoot 6.5 Grendel! But don't say "they are the same until 400 yards" just to soothe the reality.

-Stooxie

My 12.5” 6.8 lauches my handloaded 120gr SST to 2450 at basically sea level and 2480 at 6500ft ish where I hunt. A 12.5” Grendel can’t do that. It is devastating on deer.

You should limit your effective range, not on an arbitrary number like 500, but rather the combination of minimum expansion velocity and energy.

With that said, I believe that the 6.5G is a better factory round. Factory 6.8 is neutered b/c of ridiculous SAAMI foul up from Remington. As a hand loader, I can get the most out of the cartridge.

Here is the truth, for hunting either will work fine.

Great words.

<---Oen both

That might have been true many years ago, and perhaps still with the SSA/Nosler stuff, but certainly not for most loads. My 12.5" 6.8 launches 120gr factory SSTs at 2410 fps at 40 degrees F. You got a bit more which is totally expected for a hand load. Hornady, Federal Fusion and S&B factory loads are hot loads. I have all the chrono data to show it.

Let's be accurate with our language.

-Stooxie

How do the full size mags compare between the two calibers? It looks like the Grendel mags have more of a curve. Any reliability issues?
I would assume the smaller mags, like 10 rds. would be about the same.

I'd like to be your friend please...

Me too!

This post should be the end of the thread.

And I’m a Grendel guy.

It works great on deer.  My son has claimed my 6.8 so I have been considering what to build next.  Was thinking about 6.5 but I'm interested in what the Army is doing.

I went 6.8spc a little less than roughly 7 years ago. After doing a TON of research between 300BO and 6.5G I chose 6.8spc for the simple fact that I would be hunting at 350 yards and less. I'm happy and given the chance to go back I'd do it again. Nothing has changed since then. It still is the best option for that in my opinion.

With that said I have considered doing a 6.5g for a long range paper target rifle. With all these lowers from PSA I might just do that. Who knows.

I went with the 6.8 SPC early also.  At the time the only source for components and factory ammo for the 6.5 was through Alexander Arms due to the patent restrictions they had in place.  With a wider choice of ammo and several manufacturers producing complete rifles, barrels and bolts it was an easy choice.  Now that the patent has either expired or Alexander Arms lifted the restrictions 6.5 Grendel is becoming more widespread.  I think about it once in a while, but haven't seen any really advantage it has over my 6.8 SPC II.  Maybe one day.

The 110 gr Nosler/SSA averages 2700 fps out of my 18".

It was never worth it.

The only reason to ask this question is the existence of similar calibers, namely 6.5g.

I've been killing a deer per year for the last 10 years with a 6.8 SPC either a frankenbuild AR or my Ruger Compact bolt action.  Also numerous coyotes and  occasional vermin.

It kills everything DRT and I have been very satisfied with the round.  90 grain TNT's are my standard road hunting load and for deer a 120 grain Pro Hunter load is very effective.  A Barnes TTSX 95 grain is my favorite deer bullet.

So far it's been one bullet per deer and I haven't had to shoot one twice.  I see no need to throw my 6.8's away and bet you would be well served by the caliber.

I've killed a sack of deer with the 63gr Sierra SMP in a 223.....doesnt prove a whole lot, deer die easy. In fact, I have never had to shoot a deer twice with anything.

The 6.8 makes a modicum of sense in an AR, for which it was designed...or even in a micro action like a CZ527 or Mini Howa....but why in the world would you use it in a bolt gun, when even a standard short action has so many more options, with a lot more horsepower?

I went 6.8 pretty early, and this sums it up for me. Today it would be a harder choice, but since I have some 6.8 'stuff', I am now looking forward to a .224 Valkyrie build!

I've been in the 6.8 game for about 3 years now.  I've shot a lot of deer with a lot of different stuff, but the 6.8 just plain works.  A few coyotes and a nice hog too.  It just puts them down.  I wouldn't take a shot over 300 yards with it, but then again, I probably won't ever shoot at a deer over 300 yards with anything.  14.5" barrel and a Trijicon 3-9 is about as handy as it gets in the deer woods in my eyes.

You're 100% right it really boils down to energy vs ballistic objectives.  For me the difference in energy and velocity wasn't enough, but for a pure hunting <400 set of objectives 6.8 makes sense.

Most of what has been reported about the 6.8 history is a fabrication.

The terminal ballistics tests done by the small handful of people (who intentionally refused to look at decades of Army research dating back to the pig studies and the .276 Pedersen), then rigged the tests with different projectile construction in favor of .277 diameter for some reason.



The FBI ballistics lab looked at those attempts to rig the tests and told the handful of 6.8 promoters to never come back again.

Then they hoodwinked a USMC General into thinking it was the next best thing for the Corps, and tried to rig more tests against the Grendel by ordering pallets of the worst 123gr Soft Point Grendel PPU flat based load out of 10.5" uppers, even attempting to skip mechanical firing tests and go straight to man-firing with a pre-drawn conclusion.  That was all caught and nipped in the bud, but another example of the fraud that was going on behind the scenes.

After the Blackwater shoot, where Grendel demonstrated superior terminal ballistics and barrier defeat (that the 6.8 guys refused to even shoot after seeing it), they went to the floor of SHOT show and started telling everyone that they can't say anything because it's classified Top Secret stuff, but SOCOM has this new cartridge that will be the next NATO service rifle cartridge and if you get in now, you'll be on the ground floor to its adoption and ahead of the competition.  They went around to everyone telling them this, which was complete BS.  After their spiel on the 6.8, they followed up with, "Oh, by the way.  There's this other cartridge out there called 6.5 Grendel.  You don't want anything to do with it because it's garbage."  It was some of the best advertisement the Grendel could get.

There was no hostility from anyone with Grendel, quite the opposite really.  In the end, the 6.8 was banned from use overseas, all mags, ammo, and uppers were ordered to be turned in or face court martial, and one of the main proponents of it was fired from his job within a certain Army unit for committing massive fraud and concealment of resources, while attempting to use Commander signature authority without knowledge of the commander.  The commander is one of the most accomplished Special Forces officers with an unbelievably blessed career, who discovered the fraud and put an end to it immediately.

If you hear stories above, they are misinformed and coming from 3rd-hand info at best.  When presented with the facts, people still refuse to accept them and run with this tired position that has literally no merit in the history of the development of the 6.8 SPC.  It's a case study in how not to design, promote, and cause animosity in the firearms community.

Show your math.

Projectile selection favors 6.5 Grendel and always has, but has been repeated the opposite.

Retained energy and penetration on game inside of 200yds favors Grendel.

Multi-use capability with one bullet type favors Grendel in spades.  Not a single one of the 6.8 projectiles can do target work like a Grendel can, and common hunting bullets in 6.5 Grendel do better at both target and hunting than 6.8, so there really is no reason to be wasting one's time with a 6.8 in 2018 unless you were duped by all the initial hype and fraud, and fell for it.

Grendel overtakes 6.8 SPC within 200yds, often within 100yds, so the BC advantage is there from the start.

You can't overcome BC with velocity shooting the same projectile weight from the same case capacity.

It just doesn't work out.

Also, the BC on the 120gr SST for 6.8 is likely optimistic at .400, and given what we found with the 123gr 6.5mm BC vs real world, the 123gr SST BC ended up being about 90% of what was advertised.

If that holds true for the shorter, fatter 120gr SST, instead of being .400 G1, it's likely in the .364 G1 region, meaning 60fps mv advantage is gone within 75yds.

So much for "6.8 has the advantage out to 400yds." as if BC was asleep until an arbitrary distance.

Anyone with a free ballistics program can plug in the numbers and see that there is no advantage to the 6.8 shooting the same bullet construction from the same manufacturer.

6.8 SPC 120gr SST 2460fps .364 G1 (Using a compared form factor BC that more likely represents the real world BC of the 120gr SST, vs the advertised .400 G1)
75yds 2286fps 1393ft-lbs
200yds 2013fps 1080ft-lbs

6.5 Grendel 123gr SST 2400fps .462 G1 (I handicapped the Grendel anywhere from 40-70fps from years of my 16" chrono readings just to prove the point, and used the Litz BC, not Hornady's advertised .510 G1 BC)
75yds 2264fps 1400ft-lbs
200yds 2049fps 1146ft-lbs

It isn't hype or fanaticism that shows why 6.8 isn't worth it in 2018 unless you're already invested in rifles, components, or mags.  It's just actual performance.  The Grendel simply hits harder even within close ranges, doesn't deflect as much, and does everything a 6.8 will do and more in a tropical hunting setting, then turns around and makes it so you don't want to shoot your .308 anymore on targets.

Those are very real performance advantages that carry weight when someone is considering what cartridge to go with.  It's nothing personal, nothing emotional.  Just hard reality that a lot of guys have to learn or refuse to learn because there was some seriously unethical marketing hype and fraud going on with the early promotion of the 6.8 to get a foothold.

I am happy with my franken gas piston 6.8 rifle.

12.5" 6.8 hand-loaded 2480fps 120gr SST

100yds 2249fps 1348ft-lbs
125yds 2193fps 1282ft-lbs
150yds 2138fps 1218ft-lbs

12.5" 6.5 Grendel hand loaded 2410fps 123gr SST

100yds 2230fps 1358ft-lbs
125yds 2186fps 1305ft-lbs
150yds 2143fps 1254ft-lbs

You start to see why I haven't built a 12.5" 6.8 and why I have and am building more 12" 6.5 Grendels.  With that same 12" Grendel, I take it to 800yds and engage steel like it's boring, with a 1-4x scope.

Even at that it isnt worth it. If you are invested.....a simple barrel swap to a 6x6.8 makes the world right again.

I used to believe the banter about Remington screwing up the SAAMI submission, but after seeing Western Powders test where they took a 24" test barrel chambered with a SAAMI reamer and pressure-tested it, then reamed it with a "SPC II" reamer and tested it again, they saw only 19fps difference with a 24" barrel in mv.  Lots of hype again was garnered up about that SPC II chamber, and very influential and respected firearms manufacturers were run off and accosted for not cutting a SPC II chamber, for which there is no industry-standard and accepted print that has been certified by any body.  Then ammo manufacturers are criticized for not pushing loads hotter than what the bolt and barrel extension can handle with MAP, MPSM, MPSLM standards and accusations of "That's just lawyers setting the limits on it."

Again, the whole history of the 6.8 has been a monstrous abortion from start-to-present in how it was handled.

Do you guys remember all the hype about how the 6.8 would replace 5.56 in the US military and NATO would probably switch to it too?

The .270 bore was the .40 before the .40 was the .40......and answer in search of a question.

I saw it from behind the scenes and was excited myself, but cautiously so (2002-2004 timeframe).

The personalities and claims sounded like those of a run out of town drunkard who was experiencing brief moments of sobriety, so I waited for 5 years to let all the beta-testing happen and bugs to work out.

Keep in mind I was helping guys build their early 6.8x43 Murray chambered and DMR chambered uppers before going down range, when they were still saying it feeds and functions fine from standard 5.56 mags, which was alarming to me because I could see that they didn't work.

Dudes were talking about tweaking the mags, as I looked at them and asked, "You're taking this to combat?"

Their response:  "5.56 gets people KILLED!  Not enough stopping power."

I had just got back from deployment myself and saw plenty of dudes wrecked from 5.56, as I had in other theaters before dating back several years.

I can have any upper, rifle, carbine, etc. that I want.  I can build and spec out a quality carbine however I want.  So why didn't I jump on the 6.8?

What does that have to do with anything?

The 6.8 SPC exist now.  If they ever make a Marvel superhero movie about it, I'm sure it's backstory will be most interesting.  Feelings aside, an object comparison finds:

The 6.8 SPC works best with lighter weight bullets and is less flexible in projectile selection due to case length and magazine restrictions.

Neither cartridge is significantly more powerful than the other, nor has any special terminal effect.  They are in the same class and with bullets designed to work with their respective properties there is little one can do that the other can't replicate at realistic ranges.  The 6.5 can retain enough velocity to make a meaningful difference past 300 yards.  How meaningful is debatable.

The 6.5 is more difficult to make feed reliably.  15 years in and there there is no mag larger than the 17 round elanders that isn't a crapshoot.

The 6.5 can be loaded from the magazine so that it has 700 yards before it's projectile slows into transonic range.  This is nothing to sneeze at, but it is a capability that 87% of Grendel owners will never use.  The longer heavier and more efficient a bullet is, the slower it comes out of the of your Grendel barrel.  The medium and heavy bullet loads in the Grendel are slow enough that it negatively effects the trajectory in the in more useful 0-300y range.

When you strip out all the hyperbole, the feels and other nonsense, you can see that both cartridges are a series of trade offs to shoehorn them into the restrictive AR15 magazine well.  In choosing either you simple chose the set if trade offs you can live with.

True enough, even worse than the history of the 6.5 Grendel.

Prepare for this to go 10 pages with the clash of cartridges.

OP, here's my take on it (current 6.8 owner/hunter and future 6.5G owner/hunter):  at your typical max hunting distances game will not experience any difference between a 6.8 or a 6.5 hitting them.

Now, I consider about 300 yards the "typical" envelope for hunting, and if you're going to shoot out past that I'm assuming you will do enough research and have enough time behind a gun that you can answer your own questions as to which cartridge is right for you.

What load is getting 2410 out of a 12.5” barrel?

This is GD, sir.  Your good sense is unwelcome.