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Posted: 3/13/2022 7:38:12 PM EDT
[#1]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Javelins have shelf lives. Most of the stuff we are giving Ukraine we would have to be throwing away anyway. |
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Posted: 3/13/2022 7:40:06 PM EDT
[#2]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Yep. Cluster bombs and Claymoore Mines laugh at human wave tactics. This isn't 1950 anymore. Need some FooGas.  THE GREEN BERETS - Green Beret B-Q |
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Posted: 3/13/2022 7:41:44 PM EDT
[#3]
Quote HistoryQuoted: What's the industrial capacity of Russia? Do they have the working factories and capital to replace what they are losing? At this point it’s unlikely they’ll be able to be able to afford to make much new stuff to replace their combat losses. Even before sanctions, they couldn’t afford to field any of their new whiz bang stuff in any decent numbers. For example, look at their T-12 tank and Su-57 fighter. Between their shitty economy (even worse now with sanctions) and rampant corruption and stealing in their government, they’ll be lucky to field much more rusted out junk from their storage reserves. |
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Posted: 3/13/2022 7:59:59 PM EDT
[#4]
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Posted: 3/13/2022 8:08:38 PM EDT
[#5]
Quote HistoryQuoted: The "pagoda" was a nice try Ivan! ?? Soft steel add-on "armor" didn't do our soldiers any good either. In the words of Don Rumsfeld, "You go to war with the army you have." |
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Posted: 3/13/2022 8:47:05 PM EDT
[#6]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Soft steel add-on "armor" didn't do our soldiers any good either. In the words of Don Rumsfeld, "You go to war with the army you have." That’s literally true. Technically they went to war with the Army Clinton left them. |
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Posted: 3/13/2022 8:50:58 PM EDT
[#7]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Missile is about 80,000 dollars. The CLU is like 175k. IIRC. I was Javalin qualified. Those were the numbers told to us. Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: Are you suggesting OP that we shouldn't take out an enemy tank with a munition that costs more than the tank? That's total failure logic right there. You are in luck though, a javelin missile costs about $175k. A T-72 is 1.2-2 million. Good bang for the buck right there. Missile is about 80,000 dollars. The CLU is like 175k. IIRC. I was Javalin qualified. Those were the numbers told to us. Javelin is Approx 200k A T72M3 (most modern) is nearly 4.5m 3-4 man crew $ Training $ Ammunition stored $ |
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Posted: 3/13/2022 9:05:44 PM EDT
[#8]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Tell me you don’t understand combat or economics without telling me you don’t understand combat or economics. Random words directed at nobody are random words. |
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Posted: 3/13/2022 10:01:44 PM EDT
[#9]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Are you suggesting OP that we shouldn’t take out an enemy tank with a munition that costs more than the tank? That’s total failure logic right there. You are in luck though, a javelin missile costs about $175k. A T-72 is 1.2-2 million. Good bang for the buck right there. If it's going to be produced by the thousands, you'd think we could do much better on the price. |
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Posted: 3/13/2022 11:30:17 PM EDT
[#10]
Quote HistoryQuoted: The joy dead russians bring to the world is PRICELESS.  
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Posted: 3/14/2022 12:13:38 AM EDT
[#11]
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Posted: 3/14/2022 12:22:18 AM EDT
[#12]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Except a Javelin is an EFP and not a shaped-charge. Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: More on reactive armor that can defeat the javelin and other tandem warheads. https://qph.fs.quoracdn.net/main-qimg-43de98409f1768efd70af94d04755256 https://www.quora.com/Why-does-Relikt-ERA-provide-protection-against-tandem-warheads-while-Kontskt-5-doesnt-What-is-the-difference-in-function-composition Except a Javelin is an EFP and not a shaped-charge. Javelin is a tandem shaped charge. TOW-2B is dual EFP. |
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Posted: 3/14/2022 12:46:03 AM EDT
[#13]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Javelin is Approx 200k A T72M3 (most modern) is nearly 4.5m 3-4 man crew $ Training $ Ammunition stored $ Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: Quoted: Are you suggesting OP that we shouldn't take out an enemy tank with a munition that costs more than the tank? That's total failure logic right there. You are in luck though, a javelin missile costs about $175k. A T-72 is 1.2-2 million. Good bang for the buck right there. Missile is about 80,000 dollars. The CLU is like 175k. IIRC. I was Javalin qualified. Those were the numbers told to us. Javelin is Approx 200k A T72M3 (most modern) is nearly 4.5m 3-4 man crew $ Training $ Ammunition stored $ As of 2011, a T72 costs roughly half a million USD, according to Wikipedia, and the cost to upgrade it to a T72B3M is $250,000. I think the complete package would probably be more expensive. |
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Posted: 3/14/2022 1:46:53 AM EDT
[#14]
The cost per “kill” is almost irrelevant in terms of modern warfare. The side that fires the most ammo wins is the most common rule now and that can be very expensive in its own right. Even if it was $1MM per rocket, which it isn’t, it’s very cost effective if it’s working, which it is.
Russia might not run out of tanks anytime soon, but destroying their deployed armor means at the very least that they’re losing armor capability in the area until they ship more in. If you take out the crew as well, they’ve also just lost an experienced armor crew and are now facing the need to train and deploy a new crew with less experience. |
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Posted: 3/14/2022 2:08:54 AM EDT
[#15]
OP carries some random $3 gunshow 115gr reloads. He's not about to waste $50 on some Federal HST for his EDC.
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Posted: 3/14/2022 2:15:11 AM EDT
[#16]
While nominally Russia has T-72s to replace the T-72s they lose, they aren’t upgraded to the same standard and that’s significant.
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Posted: 3/14/2022 3:02:09 AM EDT
[#17]
Quote HistoryQuoted: In addition to any destruction the tank will cause in the future, there is also the life of the 3-4 man crew plus the expense to train and house them until today is gone down the tubes. A Javelin is cheap. From what I'm told since I've never operated one, a Javelin is also easy to learn to operate so little training costs. Plus the more Javelins we sell/give away the more NextGen Javelins or whatever is the latest tech missile we get in our own inventory IIRC, the Russian tanks have 3 man crews |
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Posted: 3/14/2022 3:25:28 AM EDT
[#18]
Very interesting thread.
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Posted: 3/14/2022 10:35:16 AM EDT
[#19]
They have some to spare. Since that dumbass that they call the Commandant of the Marine Corps shitcanned all our armor, they can send those over to the Ukraine to bust tanks with.
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Posted: 3/14/2022 10:37:16 AM EDT
[#20]
There is a silver lining here.
Remember back in the Vietnam War, when the Russians/Soviets were providing weapons and advisors to help kill Americans? Payback is a mothafucka, Ivans. |
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Posted: 3/14/2022 10:37:41 AM EDT
[#21]
Quoted: So ya I get it the javelin can kill a T72 But how about this … How much is a 40 + year old Cold War era Soviet MBT worth vs how much do these Modern Javelin missiles cost the US Tax payer ?? Plus maybe transport even ?? Follow the Money . Who really wins ?. Ps Screw Putin .  Attached File |
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Posted: 3/14/2022 10:39:01 AM EDT
[#22]
From photos coming out, those steel add on overhead armor setups are failing miserably and the tanks are still dying.
Good. |
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Posted: 3/14/2022 10:39:33 AM EDT
[#23]
Quote HistoryQuoted: There is a silver lining here. Remember back in the Vietnam War, when the Russians/Soviets were providing weapons and advisors to help kill Americans? Payback is a mothafucka, Ivans. When the US govt failed to make communism illegal right here at home.... |
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Posted: 3/14/2022 10:42:19 AM EDT
[#24]
The human wave attack has been tried by Chinese before. In the face of good troops with machine guns, and in Korea specifically with water cooled Brownings, it routinely failed miserably, but let lots of Chinese die for their masters.
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Posted: 3/14/2022 10:44:37 AM EDT
[#25]
I'm sure the patriotic US companies wouldn't over charge the tax payer for defensive weapons.
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Posted: 3/14/2022 10:51:04 AM EDT
[#26]
Quote HistoryQuoted: IIRC, the Russian tanks have 3 man crews Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: In addition to any destruction the tank will cause in the future, there is also the life of the 3-4 man crew plus the expense to train and house them until today is gone down the tubes. A Javelin is cheap. From what I'm told since I've never operated one, a Javelin is also easy to learn to operate so little training costs. Plus the more Javelins we sell/give away the more NextGen Javelins or whatever is the latest tech missile we get in our own inventory IIRC, the Russian tanks have 3 man crews Most do, but they still have T-62s in active service, and used quite a few in Georgia in 2008. They have a 4 person crew. |
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Posted: 3/14/2022 10:51:20 AM EDT
[#27]
You can sorta tell a lot of you have zero military background. Those T-72s cost something like 500k to buy. Over their lifetime, they've had at least that much invested in improvements and maintenance.
The crew costs more than a javelin to train. (Plus ... well... what's a used Russian worth? 100 Rubles maybe) Then there's the ammo, gas, support vehicles, transport costs All quickly converted to burning shit and bloviating internet stooges for a bargain price. |
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Posted: 3/14/2022 10:51:54 AM EDT
[#28]
Quote HistoryQuoted: That and the fact that these ambushes happen almost randomly. You might get smacked hard by enemy tanks but you see them coming and you shoot back and smack some of them. With Javelin crews running all over the place, you’re just driving along and Yuri’s tank behind you randomly explodes. And this happens on a regular basis. I can only imagine it's a very similar effect that an ACCURATE sniper or DM has on an infantry squad... except way worse because most people running around in tanks probably feel fairly safe.... until they don't. |
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Posted: 3/14/2022 10:59:08 AM EDT
[#29]
The Russians always win the turret toss competitions.
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Posted: 3/14/2022 11:04:45 AM EDT
[#30]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Javelin is a tandem shaped charge. TOW-2B is dual EFP. |
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Posted: 3/14/2022 11:11:12 AM EDT
[#31]
Quote HistoryQuoted: What's the difference? Temperature? EFP does it's thing significantly further away from the target, so it gives zero fucks about stuff like ERA, and potentially even active protection systems. Put (very) simply, a shaped charge acts like a blowtorch. EFP acts more like a blowtorch that gets flung at you from across the room at a few zillion miles an hour. |
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Posted: 3/14/2022 11:12:04 AM EDT
[#32]
Trading a Javelin for a T72 is probably analogous to trading a Hi-Point for a Staccato plus a couple pallets of ammo.
It's a fantastic fucking trade if you're the one giving up the Javelin. |
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Posted: 3/14/2022 11:23:15 AM EDT
[#33]
Don't fret over the cost to the US taxpayer. You and I have no say in where our money is spent.
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Posted: 3/14/2022 11:23:17 AM EDT
[#34]
Aren’t most of the javelin’s we’re selling/giving away nearing the end of their shelf life? Seems like a bargain to me.
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Posted: 3/14/2022 11:35:37 AM EDT
[#35]
Quote HistoryQuoted: What's the difference? Temperature? The amount of deformation the liner experiences. A HEAT warhead liner flows almost like a liquid, with tip speeds near that of the detonation velocity. Very high penetration, but the warhead requires very good conditions to function, like correct standoff and no damage to the warhead.  An EFP takes a shallow plate and inverts it into a solid projectile. It has much lower velocity, but can travese greater distances without loosing significant penetration.  The javelin makes direct contact with the target and needs all the pen it can get, so it has a HEAT warhead. The TOW-2B flies over the target, so it needs a warhead that can work over short distances, like an EFP. You can mix and match multiple liners and angles to produce multiple jets/projectiles to meet the situation. 
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Posted: 3/14/2022 11:45:25 AM EDT
[#36]
It's not about the direct cost comparison per se when you can out spend your enemy by 10 to 1 without breaking a sweat.
Their economy can ill afford to replace to tanks compared to our economy's ability to produce javelins. That said, I bet the direct cost comparison is still a bargain but even if it was dollar for dollar we'd be fine. This was the case in WW2. We could afford to bleed fighters, bombers, ships and tanks because we could build WAY more than the enemy in the first place. We didn't win because we were the good guys or smarter people. We won because we had an economy that was more than 2 times the size of ANY of the Axis powers. We had an almost 3 to 1 advantage on Germany and an almost 6 to 1 advantage on Japan. |
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Posted: 3/14/2022 11:49:08 AM EDT
[#37]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Most do, but they still have T-62s in active service, and used quite a few in Georgia in 2008. They have a 4 person crew. I was shocked and looked this up. Looks like they retired them since then and gave a bunch to Syria. Russians are packrats. |
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Posted: 3/14/2022 11:59:24 AM EDT
[#38]
Quote HistoryQuoted: I was shocked and looked this up. Looks like they retired them since then and gave a bunch to Syria. Russians are packrats. Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: Most do, but they still have T-62s in active service, and used quite a few in Georgia in 2008. They have a 4 person crew. I was shocked and looked this up. Looks like they retired them since then and gave a bunch to Syria. Russians are packrats. Unless your tanks have armor designed to defeat modern anti tank munitions, it's gonna get killed. But up until and unless it dies, even a T55 can do significant damage. What's to stop it? |
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Posted: 3/14/2022 12:14:32 PM EDT
[#39]
Quote HistoryQuoted: I was shocked and looked this up. Looks like they retired them since then and gave a bunch to Syria. Russians are packrats. Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: Most do, but they still have T-62s in active service, and used quite a few in Georgia in 2008. They have a 4 person crew. I was shocked and looked this up. Looks like they retired them since then and gave a bunch to Syria. Russians are packrats. Darn. Ya, seems they keep some in 'reserve' (rusting away in some field), and have been shipping T-62M variants to Syria. I read about the latest variant and just assumed they kept using them... |
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Posted: 3/14/2022 12:21:13 PM EDT
[#40]
Seriously?
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Posted: 3/14/2022 12:22:47 PM EDT
[#41]
Latest Javelin variant is around 80k fulup rnd
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Posted: 3/14/2022 12:30:18 PM EDT
[#42]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Unless your tanks have armor designed to defeat modern anti tank munitions, it's gonna get killed. But up until and unless it dies, even a T55 can do significant damage. What's to stop it? Which is why a 54/55/62 makes sense for a third world tank that you use to block intersections that the oppositions voters need to cross to get to the polls. For Russia it makes no sense at all. Entirely too many things can kill a tank without composite armor. Even with old ERA on them, a modern APC or a Carl G can get them from several angles. |
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Posted: 3/14/2022 12:31:50 PM EDT
[#43]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Darn. Ya, seems they keep some in 'reserve' (rusting away in some field), and have been shipping T-62M variants to Syria. I read about the latest variant and just assumed they kept using them... Who can say with Russia? Their operational forces are like a museum. Except that they used to have better radios and tires. |
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Posted: 3/14/2022 12:39:09 PM EDT
[#44]
BTW we're sending old stock Javelins, and they fucking work like a charm!!
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Posted: 3/14/2022 12:42:47 PM EDT
[#45]
I wonder who was the wonder dude in Russia that thought that a cage around the tank will stop a Javelin.
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Posted: 3/14/2022 12:46:36 PM EDT
[#46]
Biden spent more than that to blow up an American ally and his kids in Afghanistan so it's all good.
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Posted: 3/14/2022 12:54:38 PM EDT
[#47]
US : “haha this is like a commercial for selling Javalins… these things will sell like hotcakes!”
(NLAW videos emerge) US : drat and damn those scoundrels at Saab/bofors… |
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Posted: 3/14/2022 1:02:12 PM EDT
[#48]
The Brits use the NLAW in the squad and the Javelin in the platoon, which makes a ton of sense actually. Talk about the US using Spike SR and Javelin similarly in the future.
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Posted: 3/14/2022 1:27:00 PM EDT
[#49]
Quote HistoryQuoted: I wonder who was the wonder dude in Russia that thought that a cage around the tank will stop a Javelin. Psychological, like most armor. |
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Posted: 3/14/2022 2:09:12 PM EDT
[#50]
Lookie here....
https://www.defense.gov/News/Contracts/Contract/Article/2952403/ ARMY Raytheon/Lockheed Martin Javelin JV, Tucson, Arizona, was awarded a $19,541,045 modification (P00055) to contract W31P4Q-19-C-0059 for life cycle contractor support services for the Javelin Weapon System. Work will be performed in Tucson, Arizona, with an estimated completion date of Feb. 28, 2023. Fiscal 2022 operation and maintenance, Army; overseas contingency operations; United States Marine Corps; Army National Guard; and Foreign Military Sales (Australia, Estonia, Georgia, Indonesia, Ireland, Jordan, Latvia, Lithuania, New Zealand, Oman, Poland, Taiwan, Ukraine, United Arab Emirates) funds in the amount of $19,541,045 were obligated at the time of the award. U.S. Army Contracting Command, Redstone Arsenal, Alabama, is the contracting activity. (Awarded Feb. 28, 2022) |
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