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Posted: 7/18/2022 2:10:44 PM EDT
[#1]
Damn, damn, fuck. I have known, and now currently know a lot of linemen. Good people. I would have probably went that route if I had to do life over. Prayers out for OPs friend.
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Posted: 7/18/2022 2:11:48 PM EDT
[#2]
Quote HistoryQuoted: There's no way to tell someone is back feeding? I am electrically dumb Check the line, but that only tells you it's dead at the exact moment you check it. Bubba can fire the genrator up and backfeed the line before the lineman even sets his test equipment down. |
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Posted: 7/18/2022 2:16:15 PM EDT
[#3]
That’s always tough to hear. Was just holding 7200 volts in my hand a bit ago.
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Posted: 7/18/2022 2:17:29 PM EDT
[#4]
What's the difference in an interlock and a transfer switch?
I have a transfer switch on the end of the house. Flip from "Pole" to "Generator" and then have a dryer plug on the back of the house I plug into the generator (6500 Honda). Transfer switch obviously disconnects me from the grid, connects the house to the dryer plug. Everything in my house works off of the generator except the A/C (gas dryer, stove, water heaters, and boiler/radiator system) |
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Posted: 7/18/2022 2:19:34 PM EDT
[#5]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Even old panels or panels that dont work for transfer switches @beerslayer can be safely done with a new transfer panel. Basically a sub panel with 2 feeds inter locked, one from the gen, one from the main panel. Then you relocate the circuits you want to the transfer panel. This is ideal as if done properly you can just hit the breakers and whats in the panel works. It does not fed everything in the house, just what circuits you move to the transfer panel, Mine has my well, kitchen and living lights and plugs, bedroom, sump pump, fridge plus a few other others. Most houses you can live pretty normal with 5-7 circuits. The good thing about this, and I just went thru it from a storm. When the main power comes back on, all the stuff that was not working started to. I was not home when the power came back, the wife called me and said the stove power just beeped ( gas stove ) saying power loss. Which meant the power was back ( just how it happened to work in my set up ) So you leave the main breaker on? I have 2 transfer boxes since I have circuits in 2 200 amp panels that are powered by the generator. Both mains are off before the genset goes online. If power comes back on at night I'll know because the security light outside will come on, if it's middle of the day I hope my neighbors will call me and tell me to shut off the damn noisy generator. The co-op guys have let me know before the last leg that comes down my road is energized a couple of times. I won't leave the main breakers on for anything, I'd rather burn up more fuel than take a chance. |
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Posted: 7/18/2022 2:20:25 PM EDT
[#6]
I had a transfer switch installed by a professional to prevent this.
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Posted: 7/18/2022 2:23:58 PM EDT
[#7]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Yes, but super UN-reliable that folks will remember. Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: I understand 100% that a transfer switch is the proper way to do this, but in an emergency is shutting off the main breaker or throw switch leading to the house sufficient to prevent this? Why? You already have to go to the breaker box to turn off everything you don't need. This is like checking a gun before you clean it. You don't need a safety device, you need to understand and clear it. The problem is that anyone that knows about an interlock probably doesn't need it. It's the guy that doesn't understand whatsoever what he is doing. |
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Posted: 7/18/2022 2:27:42 PM EDT
[#8]
Quote HistoryQuoted: An interlock and generator inlet receptacle is like $100. No reason not to have one if you are feeding a house with portable genny. Quote HistoryQuoted: An interlock and generator inlet receptacle is like $100. No reason not to have one if you are feeding a house with portable genny. Quoted: Doesn't seem to me that would be that hard to do and would protect the linemen from this asshat shit. Quoted: Probably some do it yourself home owner who thought they didn't need the safety switch  Sucks for your friend. He couldn't have know. Quoted: Fricking morons with their double male ended homemade cords. Dipshits. If you have one of those cords, go cut an end off of it before you kill someone. Quoted: you would be amazed at the amount of just plain dumb fucks out there. Don't be a Toby. |
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Posted: 7/18/2022 2:28:05 PM EDT
[#9]
Quote HistoryQuoted: So you leave the main breaker on? I have 2 transfer boxes since I have circuits in 2 200 amp panels that are powered by the generator. Both mains are off before the genset goes online. If power comes back on at night I'll know because the security light outside will come on, if it's middle of the day I hope my neighbors will call me and tell me to shut off the damn noisy generator. The co-op guys have let me know before the last leg that comes down my road is energized a couple of times. I won't leave the main breakers on for anything, I'd rather burn up more fuel than take a chance. |
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Posted: 7/18/2022 2:28:33 PM EDT
[#10]
Quote HistoryQuoted: This. I replaced my whole panel to include an interlock. No way I'd have that on my conscience. Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: An interlock and generator inlet receptacle is like $100. No reason not to have one if you are feeding a house with portable genny. This. I replaced my whole panel to include an interlock. No way I'd have that on my conscience. The dude that did it probably doesn’t even know he did it and won’t know unless some investigation leads the utility company to his door. Some guy probably had a genny and just jacked that shit right into his panel bus bars. I seent it. The shit we did at some outposts in AFG to get power was janky as fuck and those 60kW MEP806B gens don’t play around… they’ll knock your duck in the dirt. |
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Posted: 7/18/2022 2:29:36 PM EDT
[#11]
Man thats shitty. Whats the difference between throwing your main breaker and using an interlock? Other than the interlock physically stops you from being a knuckle dragger and back feeding, arent both considered a hard isolation from the main feed?
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Posted: 7/18/2022 2:30:01 PM EDT
[#12]
Retards should be charged with murder just for doing that dumb shit.
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Posted: 7/18/2022 2:30:54 PM EDT
[#13]
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Posted: 7/18/2022 2:32:04 PM EDT
[#14]
Not to be contrary but we’ve been told by linemen to back feed. We have many older locations that do not have transfer switches or have a single meter feeding multiple locations. We generally pull the meter and hook the gen to the lugs on our side or the breaker.
We have been told by the utility linemen not to do this, they would rather we back feed. That said I’m not doing it. If I can’t find any other way to hook up the generator, I’m pulling the meter. |
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Posted: 7/18/2022 2:32:30 PM EDT
[#15]
Quote HistoryQuoted: How damn hard is it to turn off the main breaker???  How hard is it not to pull a trigger? Yet, we don't point guns at people we don't intend to shoot. 
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Posted: 7/18/2022 2:32:31 PM EDT
[#16]
Quote HistoryQuoted: An interlock and generator inlet receptacle is like $100. No reason not to have one if you are feeding a house with portable genny. This |
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Posted: 7/18/2022 2:33:53 PM EDT
[#17]
Quote HistoryQuoted: homeowner is at fault. there will be consequences. i have a whole house generator professionally installed and it part of the install is a switch that cuts connectivity to the transformer before generator starts. what im curious about is for folks that have solar power backfed to grid how is that done to code to prevent issues like this? the code for grid tied solar systems is that the inverter system must detect a grid outage and have PV output to the grid cut of in some short period of time (I forgot what the time is) |
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Posted: 7/18/2022 2:35:33 PM EDT
[#18]
Quote HistoryQuoted: The dude that did it probably doesn’t even know he did it and won’t know unless some investigation leads the utility company to his door. We all have smart meters around here. I would imagine that, at the very least, the meter would log that it was online and had power at a time when the power company would expect it not to. It most likely has the ability to meter the amount of power feeding back into the grid due to homes that have solar arrays that do such things. If that is the case I would expect it won't take them long to figure out who did it. |
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Posted: 7/18/2022 2:36:59 PM EDT
[#19]
Quoted: Friend of a friend is a lineman of 20 years. Last night he was working on a high voltage line that was de-energized. His leg hit or got close to a line and he was electrocuted. He has second and third degree burns and is still alive but the damage is severe. The line was energized due to a homeowner backfeeding their generator into the grid. The dude has a wife and kids. Even if he makes it he'll never be the same. Will add links if the incident makes the news. I'm posting this because there are many DIY'ers on this forum and the topic of generators comes up frequently. I haven't read the thread yet (I will) but this is why you never bubba-hookup a generator, why you never assume anything in electric line work, and why you always work between grounds. Very sorry for your friend.
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Posted: 7/18/2022 2:37:08 PM EDT
[#20]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Why no equipotential grounding? Although I don't know if that would have popped any kind of protection device in that scenario. Is equipotential grounding a common thing on the utility side of things? I learned about it on the industrial side, I'm sure things are different. Utility guys are in double insulated booms for starters. |
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Posted: 7/18/2022 2:37:45 PM EDT
[#21]
One of the joys of utility work, unfortunately. There's a reason I stuck with industrial medium voltage vs becoming a lineman. I hate it for the guy and his family.
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Posted: 7/18/2022 2:39:02 PM EDT
[#22]
Quote HistoryQuoted: So you leave the main breaker on? I have 2 transfer boxes since I have circuits in 2 200 amp panels that are powered by the generator. Both mains are off before the genset goes online. If power comes back on at night I'll know because the security light outside will come on, if it's middle of the day I hope my neighbors will call me and tell me to shut off the damn noisy generator. The co-op guys have let me know before the last leg that comes down my road is energized a couple of times. I won't leave the main breakers on for anything, I'd rather burn up more fuel than take a chance. Quote HistoryQuoted: So you leave the main breaker on? I have 2 transfer boxes since I have circuits in 2 200 amp panels that are powered by the generator. Both mains are off before the genset goes online. If power comes back on at night I'll know because the security light outside will come on, if it's middle of the day I hope my neighbors will call me and tell me to shut off the damn noisy generator. The co-op guys have let me know before the last leg that comes down my road is energized a couple of times. I won't leave the main breakers on for anything, I'd rather burn up more fuel than take a chance. As burnsy said Quoted: That's the whole point of a transfer switch, there is no chance. It is physically disconnected, transferred from one to the other. I cannot be both at the same time. Yes it stays on, in your case both would. What you would do is transfers the circuits from both panels to one sub/transfer panel. Yes it means you would have 3 panels, the utility feed would come thru one panel, say with a 60 amp sub feed breaker. That would feed a 60 amp breaker in the the transfer panel, then you would have say a 30 amp feed breaker fed from the generator. There would be an interlock that does not allow both the 60 and the 30 to be on at the same time. When the 60 is off, it prevents generator power from going to the main panel/panels. |
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Posted: 7/18/2022 2:39:54 PM EDT
[#23]
Quote HistoryQuoted: We all have smart meters around here. I would imagine that, at the very least, the meter would log that it was online and had power at a time when the power company would expect it not to. It most likely has the ability to meter the amount of power feeding back into the grid due to homes that have solar arrays that do such things. If that is the case I would expect it won't take them long to figure out who did it. You'd need a switch within the meter itself to cut line power. It would cost hundreds of millions of dollars to implement and take decades. A meter is nothing more than a set of CTs on a network to read power coming in and at what rate. |
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Posted: 7/18/2022 2:42:23 PM EDT
[#24]
One of my former employees was a lineman before working for me. He said he'd been bit due to this. I've used a suicide cord, but always have my main disconnect open....
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Posted: 7/18/2022 2:49:47 PM EDT
[#25]
Quote HistoryQuoted: You'd need a switch within the meter itself to cut line power. It would cost hundreds of millions of dollars to implement and take decades. A meter is nothing more than a set of CTs on a network to read power coming in and at what rate. Some smart meters can cut power via remote command.  Smart Meter Hacking - Remote Disconnect |
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Posted: 7/18/2022 2:55:49 PM EDT
[#26]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Many smart meters can cut power via remote command.  https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wt8TL5mMEGkYou're missing my point where there has to be something to receive that signal and cut out the circuit. They're still using restrikes in most residential areas and meters can't take out a downstream loop. That's not a thing that most utilities have for that end of the system. |
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Posted: 7/18/2022 3:01:07 PM EDT
[#27]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Some smart meters can cut power via remote command. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wt8TL5mMEGkThey can but the meter has to be ordered with the disconnect switch installed, which is costly....most utilities are not going to pay to put that switch in every meter. They will install the disconnect meters on apartments, rental properties and habitual disconnect accounts. |
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Posted: 7/18/2022 3:03:31 PM EDT
[#28]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Not to be contrary but we’ve been told by linemen to back feed. We have many older locations that do not have transfer switches or have a single meter feeding multiple locations. We generally pull the meter and hook the gen to the lugs on our side or the breaker. We have been told by the utility linemen not to do this, they would rather we back feed. That said I’m not doing it. If I can’t find any other way to hook up the generator, I’m pulling the meter. They probably just don't want you pulling your own meter, utilities tend to frown upon that. Just FYI, old meter boxes have a bad habit of coming apart if the meters been in there a long time....nothing good normally follows that happening. 
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Posted: 7/18/2022 3:03:34 PM EDT
[#29]
I understand ATSs MTSs and interlocks.. I have an ASCO300 series to wire up for mine..
However in a somewhat related question, how is this handled when solar being fed into the grid at homeowner level being more and more popular? Do they have a list of people who have solar and just go around and shut off everyone's feed into the grid? |
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Posted: 7/18/2022 3:06:34 PM EDT
[#30]
Quoted: Friend of a friend is a lineman of 20 years. Last night he was working on a high voltage line that was de-energized. His leg hit or got close to a line and he was electrocuted. He has second and third degree burns and is still alive but the damage is severe. The line was energized due to a homeowner backfeeding their generator into the grid. The dude has a wife and kids. Even if he makes it he'll never be the same. Will add links if the incident makes the news. I'm posting this because there are many DIY'ers on this forum and the topic of generators comes up frequently. Just a question.....but don't those guys have some sort of voltage tester they use to make sure lines aren't hot......even if they aren't supposed to be? Seems like common safety practices that they would follow. |
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Posted: 7/18/2022 3:13:43 PM EDT
[#31]
It costs more money, but I couldn’t be the guy that saved some $ and killed/maimed another. I did this.
 It was about $500 for the parts and installation by an electrician. |
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Posted: 7/18/2022 3:15:51 PM EDT
[#32]
Quote HistoryQuoted: I understand ATSs MTSs and interlocks.. I have an ASCO300 series to wire up for mine.. However in a somewhat related question, how is this handled when solar being fed into the grid at homeowner level being more and more popular? Do they have a list of people who have solar and just go around and shut off everyone's feed into the grid? I was just wondering about the same thing, they may require the solar connection to have an automatic switch installed so if the main power goes out the solar disconnects from the grid. |
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Posted: 7/18/2022 3:17:51 PM EDT
[#33]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Don't be a Toby. Hey! 
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Posted: 7/18/2022 3:19:27 PM EDT
[#34]
Quote HistoryQuoted: It costs more money, but I couldn’t be the guy that saved some $ and killed/maimed another. I did this. https://www.ar15.com/media/mediaFiles/126943/F317BCC1-5CDD-44EE-8B2F-87EBD4D52B0D-2457700.jpg It was about $500 for the parts and installation by an electrician.  Looks like that can be done into an existing panel too. |
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Posted: 7/18/2022 3:20:34 PM EDT
[#35]
Quote HistoryQuoted: I see better now, I just assumed there was a disconnect from the transformer to the line and that was how the line was deenrgized. Yeah, well, there is (sort of). It's called a main breaker switch. Bonus points if you use a transfer switch to dedicated input circuit with a main breaker lock out. The home owner should be looking at criminal charges for wreckers endangerment with aggravated stupidity. |
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Posted: 7/18/2022 3:21:54 PM EDT
[#36]
That homeowner should not be allowed to connect to public utilities.
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Posted: 7/18/2022 3:24:58 PM EDT
[#37]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Fricking morons with their double male ended homemade cords. Dipshits. If you have one of those cords, go cut an end off of it before you kill someone. Yep. So many people here and other sites just openly admit to feeding through a dryer plug or into a breaker….. It’s too easy to do the right thing these days and hurt anyone. Get an interlock, don’t just rely on killing your main breaker or a hope and prayer. People are human, even those of us on ARF. |
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Posted: 7/18/2022 3:27:30 PM EDT
[#38]
Thankfully it's pretty hard to actually back-feed the grid, considering you'll trip the breaker on the generator when it tries to power every other customer down the line. Scenarios where it can actually happen have to be exceedingly rare and cases where it actually happens even more so.
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Posted: 7/18/2022 3:28:07 PM EDT
[#39]
Quote HistoryQuoted: How damn hard is it to turn off the main breaker??? Not everyone has a main breaker. And if feeding from a dryer outlet, it’s easier the. I guess we can imagine. If people can leave their kids in the car during non stressful, everyday situations I just have to assume people can forget to to either care or remember to kill the main. I don’t have a main, it wasn’t code at the time. I’m just a responsible redneck. I don’t have the same faith in my neighbors. |
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Posted: 7/18/2022 3:28:24 PM EDT
[#40]
Quote HistoryQuoted: They probably just don't want you pulling your own meter, utilities tend to frown upon that. Just FYI, old meter boxes have a bad habit of coming apart if the meters been in there a long time....nothing good normally follows that happening. I guess they better get the power on, if they don’t like it. Thankfully our newer locations have transfer switches. They reason I don’t like backfeeding is not the linemen they should know better than work on something not grounded. I don’t want some kids to get fried because they were playing on downed lines they thought were off. Yes kids are that stupid. |
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Posted: 7/18/2022 3:29:36 PM EDT
[#41]
Quoted: Friend of a friend is a lineman of 20 years. Last night he was working on a high voltage line that was de-energized. His leg hit or got close to a line and he was electrocuted. He has second and third degree burns and is still alive but the damage is severe. The line was energized due to a homeowner backfeeding their generator into the grid. The dude has a wife and kids. Even if he makes it he'll never be the same. Will add links if the incident makes the news. I'm posting this because there are many DIY'ers on this forum and the topic of generators comes up frequently. My generator panel was installed by a master electrician. No chance for a backfeed. |
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Posted: 7/18/2022 3:32:54 PM EDT
[#42]
Quote HistoryQuoted: I guess they better get the power on, if they don’t like it. Thankfully our newer locations have transfer switches. They reason I don’t like backfeeding is not the linemen they should know better than work on something not grounded. I don’t want some kids to get fried because they were playing on downed lines they thought were off. Yes kids are that stupid. Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: They probably just don't want you pulling your own meter, utilities tend to frown upon that. Just FYI, old meter boxes have a bad habit of coming apart if the meters been in there a long time....nothing good normally follows that happening. I guess they better get the power on, if they don’t like it. Thankfully our newer locations have transfer switches. They reason I don’t like backfeeding is not the linemen they should know better than work on something not grounded. I don’t want some kids to get fried because they were playing on downed lines they thought were off. Yes kids are that stupid.
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Posted: 7/18/2022 3:38:12 PM EDT
[#43]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Stupid to back feed like that. I’m also surprised that they don’t have a way to safely check for voltage on the lines prior to working on them. Generally in industry you have a try step in the lockout process. I don’t know what is the practice for utilities. They are supposed to check for backfeed after the circuit is cut from the station side before working on the line. |
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Posted: 7/18/2022 3:40:01 PM EDT
[#44]
I was once ridiculed in a GD thread for reminding people about the dangers of back feeding your house electric panel with a generator WITHOUT using a proper transfer or isolation switch.
It is against the law almost everywhere in the U.S. |
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Posted: 7/18/2022 3:40:44 PM EDT
[#45]
How many of the people that do this actually made ANY attempt to lock things out?
I tend to think most of the time, its someone that has utterly no idea what they're doing, not someone that actually tried to isolate from the grid and made a mistake. Everyone's got their own level of comfort, but I'm OK with locking out my main breaker at the meter base, and plugging into a dryer outlet, being that all three relevant items are next to each other. Having a male/male cord around is no different than a loaded gun. I don't support safe storage laws and biometric guns, even though inevitably people get killed with insecure guns all the time. |
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Posted: 7/18/2022 3:41:29 PM EDT
[#46]
Quote HistoryQuoted: An interlock and generator inlet receptacle is like $100. No reason not to have one if you are feeding a house with portable genny. |
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Posted: 7/18/2022 3:42:30 PM EDT
[#47]
That's one reason that I'm still using extension cords.
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Posted: 7/18/2022 3:51:31 PM EDT
[#48]
I wonder how they find the offender. Sure, you could listen for generators and find who has one. Then what, a search warrant?
What if the guy says "nah my main breaker was off". |
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Posted: 7/18/2022 3:52:48 PM EDT
[#49]
Quote HistoryQuoted: My generator panel was installed by a master electrician. No chance for a backfeed. Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: Friend of a friend is a lineman of 20 years. Last night he was working on a high voltage line that was de-energized. His leg hit or got close to a line and he was electrocuted. He has second and third degree burns and is still alive but the damage is severe. The line was energized due to a homeowner backfeeding their generator into the grid. The dude has a wife and kids. Even if he makes it he'll never be the same. Will add links if the incident makes the news. I'm posting this because there are many DIY'ers on this forum and the topic of generators comes up frequently. My generator panel was installed by a master electrician. No chance for a backfeed. Yep. I had an electrician friend install a transfer switch when he installed the gen receptacle. If I want lights, I have to be disconnected from the grid. |
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Posted: 7/18/2022 3:54:01 PM EDT
[#50]
I can't say I'm a saint about safety myself, but the line should have been grounded on both sides of the downed wire.
A lineman here died two weeks ago from back feed. Electrician hooked up a temporary generator and did not open the main. Lineman did not pull the fuses. Replacing elbows(high voltage plugs) on a padmount(ground level) transformer. Opened the elbows, tested de-energized, electrician hooked up the temp generator incorrectly, lineman touched the now live primary bushing and died on the spot. The officer on detail was burned trying to put the flames out on the guy. I had the exact same scenario happen to me except I wasn't doing the work. I found the problem, disconnected, the primaries, and helped the electrician run cables on the genny. He showed me exactly where he was hooking them up and the breaker open. I went outside, electrician says he's up and running. I started to leave because another crew was coming to replace the bushings and elbows that were burnt. For some reason I got a bad feeling and went back to the transformer because I wanted to pull the fuses in case the next guys forgot. I heard buzzing when I opened the doors and the burned bushing was buzzing. Pulled the fuses and secondaries are still hot. Turns out the electrician did the opposite of what he said he was doing. |
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