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Posted: 12/7/2022 1:51:53 AM EDT
[#1]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By Saltwater-Hillbilly: Best way to think of an M1117 is as a replacement for the Uparmored HMMWV, as it is significantly better for most missions (especially off-road). It was upgraded design based on the V350/V500 vehicles used in Vietnam and was initially acquired or the IFOR/SFOR/KFOR missions in the Balkans and was later produced in numbers for the Iraq and Afghanistan missions, as it was significantly better than most other readily-available options circa-2004. As pointed out, they are really designed for route reconnaissance, convoy security, QRF missions and other securtiy.MP-type tasks. M1117 beats using Scooby vans, Russian Jeeps or unarmored pickups for tactical missions, but it is really designed for insurgency and rear security work, not taking on mech forces. I like the analogy of the M113 as an Uber for Grunts, provided you don't have the Uber take you tp the front door of the party. Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By Saltwater-Hillbilly: Originally Posted By CharlieR: Originally Posted By Flogger23m: It has a lot to do with production time and localized production. South Korea claims they can have tanks delivered to Poland this year. I suppose we'll see if that happens. The next part is they will eventually be built in Poland. Poland wants to kickstart their own arms industry. They already do some stuff but clearly want to do everything. Co-producing tanks is a good way to get started. I recall that we are sending the M1117 to Ukraine. How does this compare to the M113 in terms of armor and carrying capacity? https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/6/6b/M1117_Armored_Security_Vehicle.jpg Obviously I assume wheels are better on road and worse off road. Just wondering how these will be used and what role they do. At least the turret is protected. M1117 is a tin can. Outside of the two crew in the front and the gunner, I think it can carry one or maybe two pax. Getting in and out through the door sucks. An RPG-7 will raise havoc. Crosscountry mobility in snow is very poor. The gunner has a 3x day only sight, and you can dump a lot of .50 and mark19 on someone, better then a humvee. But reloading the ammo is also slow and painful. It is an MP vehicle that was useful for convoy security in rear areas. An MATV with a CROWS mount is far better. It is basically obsolete. An M113 is tracked, better cross country mobility, can carry a squad and they can get on and off quickly. Also wont take a hit from an RPG. Not really a fighting vehicle, more of a taxi and I would drop off the dismounts behind cover, at least 500m back, and let them walk in. Can carry lots of stuff. You *could* mount lots of weapons on it, like .50, mark19, 7.62MGs, but its armor is, in the modern world, very thin and its more of a taxi. It can reload belts faster then an M1117. One is a crosscountry uber for grunts and you want to keep it out of trouble, the other is a not very useful convoy security truck. Best way to think of an M1117 is as a replacement for the Uparmored HMMWV, as it is significantly better for most missions (especially off-road). It was upgraded design based on the V350/V500 vehicles used in Vietnam and was initially acquired or the IFOR/SFOR/KFOR missions in the Balkans and was later produced in numbers for the Iraq and Afghanistan missions, as it was significantly better than most other readily-available options circa-2004. As pointed out, they are really designed for route reconnaissance, convoy security, QRF missions and other securtiy.MP-type tasks. M1117 beats using Scooby vans, Russian Jeeps or unarmored pickups for tactical missions, but it is really designed for insurgency and rear security work, not taking on mech forces. I like the analogy of the M113 as an Uber for Grunts, provided you don't have the Uber take you tp the front door of the party. Thanks. Seems like we weren't really using them anyways. I'm sure Ukraine can find some use for them. |
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Posted: 12/7/2022 2:18:43 AM EDT
[#2]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By Dominion21: Yep. It is also in direct violation of our obligations under the Budapest memo, to provide guaranteed security to Ukraine in exchange for its nukes. Either boots on the ground, or give them back their nukes. Thank you. FFS. There was a time when our word meant something. At least I think there was. |
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Posted: 12/7/2022 2:20:50 AM EDT
[#3]
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Posted: 12/7/2022 3:23:07 AM EDT
[#4]
Propagandist admits the US doesn’t fear Russian and reminisces about people being afraid of being whacked if they step out of line. They’re definitely prepping their populace for a return to a shitty lifestyle and total war. I’m glad every eye available is watching for signs of them pulling nukes out. At least I hope so |
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Posted: 12/7/2022 3:31:25 AM EDT
[Last Edit: AROKIE]
[#5]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By Jack67: And if they take Crimea before Melitopol? As someone else pointed out yesterday or so, this creates an incentive to alter strategy around the political reality instead of the most efficient battlefield strategy. Personally it’s not a threat. It could have been an innocent remark, a head fake, a few different things. The fact that repeated statements have been made that there will be no “imposed” peace on Ukraine would indicate that. Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By Jack67: Originally Posted By AROKIE: Well hopefully when it comes time to actually take Crimea, they will no longer need our help and will have enough on hand to do so. But yeah that doesnt sound like we will be helping at that point. And if they take Crimea before Melitopol? As someone else pointed out yesterday or so, this creates an incentive to alter strategy around the political reality instead of the most efficient battlefield strategy. Personally it’s not a threat. It could have been an innocent remark, a head fake, a few different things. The fact that repeated statements have been made that there will be no “imposed” peace on Ukraine would indicate that. True, My honest Opinion though, is that they will not take Crimea before Melitopol. I have a strong feeling, and not just from these latest remarks from the white house but comments over time and also from the growing impatience of the American people and from congress that we (USA) are looking for a peaceful settlement and that "we" would be OK if that only included feb 2022 losses returned. The "west" can and does influence the direction of the war fighting that Ukraine does, we do have back channel folks "whispering in there ear", if they go this way or go that way you can have this or that. there are alot of ways that we can impede Ukraine from attempting to take Crimea with out looking like we are forcing them to. Throttling back the intelligence, throttling back arms, or forcing other NATO countries to pressure Ukraine behind closed doors, etc... all without looking like we are "imposing peace" on Ukraine all without looking like we had a hand in the decision. basically, the "west" controls the "political reality" of it all right now. For the record, when i saw "we" im referring to the white house, American Government.. Im personally all for Ukraine getting back everything from 2014 on, and truly hope they do!! |
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Posted: 12/7/2022 3:40:16 AM EDT
[#6]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By AROKIE: True, My honest Opinion though, is that they will not take Crimea before Melitopol. I have a strong feeling, and not just from these latest remarks from the white house but comments over time and also from the growing impatience of the American people and from congress that we (USA) are looking for a peaceful settlement and that "we" would be OK if that only included feb 2022 losses returned… I don’t “hear” that myself. I hear the opposite, really. I imagine this is colored by how and where you listen - not saying my sources are superior at all, or disputing that is your perception. I listen to what I hear friends and family say, look at the general comment/reply ratio on Twitter, also GD here is even an indicator. I haven’t seen pro-Ukraine sentiment really waver and I’ve seen a decrease in anti-Ukraine sentiment as the war goes well (everyone like a winner, they say). I’m quite optimistic, more so than the early days - much more so. The war crimes, attack on civilians, kidnapping of children - it’s all added up. I’ve seen the core pro-Ukraine positions harden and the soft- and anti- ones weaken. Just a data point, not trying to fight about it. |
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Posted: 12/7/2022 3:41:17 AM EDT
[#7]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By Freiheit8472:
Propagandist admits the US doesn’t fear Russian and reminisces about people being afraid of being whacked if they step out of line. They’re definitely prepping their populace for a return to a shitty lifestyle and total war. I’m glad every eye available is watching for signs of them pulling nukes out. At least I hope so I think they are afraid to go full "soviet union" mentality against there own population. Ever since the internet and social media has grown roots and gained traction in Russia the younger generations are not used to being treated the way you and I think of when we think of the old days soviet union club beatings they would do if your papers where out of line.. BUT they are used to being treated like subjects controlled by the Russian government. But I believe Putin realizes the latest forced conscription showed strong signs of discontent from the population and he may see a breaking point of control. I maybe dreaming, but surely todays society in Russia, as brainwashed as they are will not accept going back to the days of daily beatings for being a potato short of meeting the quota |
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Posted: 12/7/2022 3:42:59 AM EDT
[Last Edit: AROKIE]
[#8]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By Jack67: I don’t “hear” that myself. I hear the opposite, really. I imagine this is colored by how and where you listen - not saying my sources are superior at all, or disputing that is your perception. I listen to what I hear friends and family say, look at the general comment/reply ratio on Twitter, also GD here is even an indicator. I haven’t seen pro-Ukraine sentiment really waver and I’ve seen a decrease in anti-Ukraine sentiment as the war goes well (everyone like a winner, they say). I’m quite optimistic, more so than the early days - much more so. The war crimes, attack on civilians, kidnapping of children - it’s all added up. I’ve seen the core pro-Ukraine positions harden and the soft- and anti- ones weaken. Just a data point, not trying to fight about it. Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By Jack67: Originally Posted By AROKIE: True, My honest Opinion though, is that they will not take Crimea before Melitopol. I have a strong feeling, and not just from these latest remarks from the white house but comments over time and also from the growing impatience of the American people and from congress that we (USA) are looking for a peaceful settlement and that "we" would be OK if that only included feb 2022 losses returned… I don’t “hear” that myself. I hear the opposite, really. I imagine this is colored by how and where you listen - not saying my sources are superior at all, or disputing that is your perception. I listen to what I hear friends and family say, look at the general comment/reply ratio on Twitter, also GD here is even an indicator. I haven’t seen pro-Ukraine sentiment really waver and I’ve seen a decrease in anti-Ukraine sentiment as the war goes well (everyone like a winner, they say). I’m quite optimistic, more so than the early days - much more so. The war crimes, attack on civilians, kidnapping of children - it’s all added up. I’ve seen the core pro-Ukraine positions harden and the soft- and anti- ones weaken. Just a data point, not trying to fight about it. I think we get similar info, here and other "reliable" sources on twitter, etc.. Im just not as Optimistic as you are, and I truly hope im wrong.  edited: maybe i just dont trust the U.S. to have the backbone to go through till the bloody end. atleast I dont trust the folks in office making the decisions. |
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Posted: 12/7/2022 4:07:04 AM EDT
[Last Edit: Jack67]
[#9]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By AROKIE: I think we get similar info, here and other "reliable" sources on twitter, etc.. Im just not as Optimistic as you are, and I truly hope im wrong. edited: maybe i just dont trust the U.S. to have the backbone to go through till the bloody end. atleast I dont trust the folks in office making the decisions. Ok, factor this in, and maybe it will help you feel good about being wrong: ;) (full humility - I hope/pray my analysis is correct) - I believe that Blinken and Austin are effectively in-charge. I don’t think the WH is really running this in the details. (And that’s how it should be). - This is NOT a bad thing wrt those guys and their staffs. They are neocons of the first order, along with a lot of the senior SD staff - Nuland, etc. - Maybe they got the WOT wrong, but their philosophy is built for this kind of conflict. - The hard left HATES them and attacked them when nominated. So read that for what it is. - FP is the one place the hard left was f*&ked wrt to getting their people installed in the Biden admin. - thank God. Here’s some left hatred from pre-war on Blinken, et al.: https://www.salon.com/2022/04/12/pimps-of-war-neocons-fueled-20-years-of-carnage-in-the-middle-east-are-back-for-more/ https://www.washingtonpost.com/outlook/2020/12/15/biden-foreign-policy-interventionism-war/ Once I got to this realization in spring/late spring, I was more confident about how this would play out, even if not as aggressively as I would like or hope. Everything Biden has personally signaled (Putin must go, no compromise peace) gives them overhead room to be even more aggressive than they are. I think they are playing it well. Very well. |
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Posted: 12/7/2022 4:18:03 AM EDT
[#10]
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Posted: 12/7/2022 4:20:21 AM EDT
[#11]
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Posted: 12/7/2022 4:32:27 AM EDT
[Last Edit: AROKIE]
[#12]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By Jack67: Ok, factor this in, and maybe it will help you feel good about being wrong: ;) (full humility - I hope/pray my analysis is correct) - I believe that Blinken and Austin are fully in-charge. I don’t think the WH is really running this in the details. (And that’s how it should be). - This is NOT a bad thing wrt those guys and their staffs. They are neocons of the first order, along with a lot of the senior SD staff - Nuland, etc. - Maybe they got the WOT wrong, but their philosophy is built for this kind of conflict. - The hard left HATES them and attacked them when nominated. So read that for what it is. - FP is the one place the hard left was f*&ked wrt to getting their people installed in the Biden admin. - thank God. Here’s some left hatred from pre-war on Blinken, et al.: https://www.salon.com/2022/04/12/pimps-of-war-neocons-fueled-20-years-of-carnage-in-the-middle-east-are-back-for-more/ https://www.washingtonpost.com/outlook/2020/12/15/biden-foreign-policy-interventionism-war/ Once I got to this realization in spring/late spring, I was more confident about how this would play out, even if not as aggressively as I would like or hope. Everything Biden has personally signaled (Putin must go, no compromise peace) gives them overhead room to be even more aggressive than they are. I think they are playing it well. Very well. Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By Jack67: Originally Posted By AROKIE: I think we get similar info, here and other "reliable" sources on twitter, etc.. Im just not as Optimistic as you are, and I truly hope im wrong. edited: maybe i just dont trust the U.S. to have the backbone to go through till the bloody end. atleast I dont trust the folks in office making the decisions. Ok, factor this in, and maybe it will help you feel good about being wrong: ;) (full humility - I hope/pray my analysis is correct) - I believe that Blinken and Austin are fully in-charge. I don’t think the WH is really running this in the details. (And that’s how it should be). - This is NOT a bad thing wrt those guys and their staffs. They are neocons of the first order, along with a lot of the senior SD staff - Nuland, etc. - Maybe they got the WOT wrong, but their philosophy is built for this kind of conflict. - The hard left HATES them and attacked them when nominated. So read that for what it is. - FP is the one place the hard left was f*&ked wrt to getting their people installed in the Biden admin. - thank God. Here’s some left hatred from pre-war on Blinken, et al.: https://www.salon.com/2022/04/12/pimps-of-war-neocons-fueled-20-years-of-carnage-in-the-middle-east-are-back-for-more/ https://www.washingtonpost.com/outlook/2020/12/15/biden-foreign-policy-interventionism-war/ Once I got to this realization in spring/late spring, I was more confident about how this would play out, even if not as aggressively as I would like or hope. Everything Biden has personally signaled (Putin must go, no compromise peace) gives them overhead room to be even more aggressive than they are. I think they are playing it well. Very well. I sure hope you are correct! given that he said that about regaining the territory lost since Feb. 2022 and not Including Crimea in that statement, I do not believe he just miss-spoke, as I know hes smart enough to know Putin will pounce on it.. But you think it was a diversionary statement? That is actually quite big that he stated it like that. |
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Posted: 12/7/2022 4:45:35 AM EDT
[#13]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By Easterner: https://www.ar15.com/media/mediaFiles/526834/IMG_20221207_101942_jpg-2626847.JPG Молодец! Keep up those numbers!! |
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Posted: 12/7/2022 4:57:14 AM EDT
[#14]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By Jack67: Ok, factor this in, and maybe it will help you feel good about being wrong: ;) (full humility - I hope/pray my analysis is correct) - I believe that Blinken and Austin are effectively in-charge. I don’t think the WH is really running this in the details. (And that’s how it should be). - This is NOT a bad thing wrt those guys and their staffs. They are neocons of the first order, along with a lot of the senior SD staff - Nuland, etc. - Maybe they got the WOT wrong, but their philosophy is built for this kind of conflict. - The hard left HATES them and attacked them when nominated. So read that for what it is. - FP is the one place the hard left was f*&ked wrt to getting their people installed in the Biden admin. - thank God. Here’s some left hatred from pre-war on Blinken, et al.: https://www.salon.com/2022/04/12/pimps-of-war-neocons-fueled-20-years-of-carnage-in-the-middle-east-are-back-for-more/ https://www.washingtonpost.com/outlook/2020/12/15/biden-foreign-policy-interventionism-war/ Once I got to this realization in spring/late spring, I was more confident about how this would play out, even if not as aggressively as I would like or hope. Everything Biden has personally signaled (Putin must go, no compromise peace) gives them overhead room to be even more aggressive than they are. I think they are playing it well. Very well. Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By Jack67: Originally Posted By AROKIE: I think we get similar info, here and other "reliable" sources on twitter, etc.. Im just not as Optimistic as you are, and I truly hope im wrong. edited: maybe i just dont trust the U.S. to have the backbone to go through till the bloody end. atleast I dont trust the folks in office making the decisions. Ok, factor this in, and maybe it will help you feel good about being wrong: ;) (full humility - I hope/pray my analysis is correct) - I believe that Blinken and Austin are effectively in-charge. I don’t think the WH is really running this in the details. (And that’s how it should be). - This is NOT a bad thing wrt those guys and their staffs. They are neocons of the first order, along with a lot of the senior SD staff - Nuland, etc. - Maybe they got the WOT wrong, but their philosophy is built for this kind of conflict. - The hard left HATES them and attacked them when nominated. So read that for what it is. - FP is the one place the hard left was f*&ked wrt to getting their people installed in the Biden admin. - thank God. Here’s some left hatred from pre-war on Blinken, et al.: https://www.salon.com/2022/04/12/pimps-of-war-neocons-fueled-20-years-of-carnage-in-the-middle-east-are-back-for-more/ https://www.washingtonpost.com/outlook/2020/12/15/biden-foreign-policy-interventionism-war/ Once I got to this realization in spring/late spring, I was more confident about how this would play out, even if not as aggressively as I would like or hope. Everything Biden has personally signaled (Putin must go, no compromise peace) gives them overhead room to be even more aggressive than they are. I think they are playing it well. Very well. Good post, thank you for giving some hope about the management. I’m still pissed they allegedly did a software kill in the HIMARS in case UKR got ATACMS from someone else. Really hope to see that proved wrong or someone slip a thumb drive to enable it |
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MI, USA
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Posted: 12/7/2022 5:11:24 AM EDT
[#15]
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NV, USA
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Posted: 12/7/2022 5:25:15 AM EDT
[#16]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By AROKIE: I think they are afraid to go full "soviet union" mentality against there own population. Ever since the internet and social media has grown roots and gained traction in Russia the younger generations are not used to being treated the way you and I think of when we think of the old days soviet union club beatings they would do if your papers where out of line.. BUT they are used to being treated like subjects controlled by the Russian government. But I believe Putin realizes the latest forced conscription showed strong signs of discontent from the population and he may see a breaking point of control. I maybe dreaming, but surely todays society in Russia, as brainwashed as they are will not accept going back to the days of daily beatings for being a potato short of meeting the quota Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By AROKIE: Originally Posted By Freiheit8472:
Propagandist admits the US doesn’t fear Russian and reminisces about people being afraid of being whacked if they step out of line. They’re definitely prepping their populace for a return to a shitty lifestyle and total war. I’m glad every eye available is watching for signs of them pulling nukes out. At least I hope so I think they are afraid to go full "soviet union" mentality against there own population. Ever since the internet and social media has grown roots and gained traction in Russia the younger generations are not used to being treated the way you and I think of when we think of the old days soviet union club beatings they would do if your papers where out of line.. BUT they are used to being treated like subjects controlled by the Russian government. But I believe Putin realizes the latest forced conscription showed strong signs of discontent from the population and he may see a breaking point of control. I maybe dreaming, but surely todays society in Russia, as brainwashed as they are will not accept going back to the days of daily beatings for being a potato short of meeting the quota Yes this is a huge factor. The irony is Putins solid success in raising the standard of living in Russia 2000-2022 paradoxically limits his options for going back to Soviet Times style hardship. There'd just be too much relative depravation. The Soviets were running a harsh government to be sure - but in a land that had basically been a shithole without happiness since forever. Going from Serfdom to WW1 to Bolsheviks to Stalin to Stalingrad... basically not a radical change in quality of life, just constant sorrow (no wonder they like to drink.) Trying to take a Moscovite now with an Iphone and a business job and vacations to Europe and trying to jump back to Soviet time would be a much more profound shock than going from Serfdom to Stalin. |
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Posted: 12/7/2022 5:58:40 AM EDT
[#17]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By spydercomonkey: Yes this is a huge factor. The irony is Putins solid success in raising the standard of living in Russia 2000-2022 paradoxically limits his options for going back to Soviet Times style hardship. There'd just be too much relative depravation. The Soviets were running a harsh government to be sure - but in a land that had basically been a shithole without happiness since forever. Going from Serfdom to WW1 to Bolsheviks to Stalin to Stalingrad... basically not a radical change in quality of life, just constant sorrow (no wonder they like to drink.) Trying to take a Moscovite now with an Iphone and a business job and vacations to Europe and trying to jump back to Soviet time would be a much more profound shock than going from Serfdom to Stalin. Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By spydercomonkey: Originally Posted By AROKIE: Originally Posted By Freiheit8472:
Propagandist admits the US doesn’t fear Russian and reminisces about people being afraid of being whacked if they step out of line. They’re definitely prepping their populace for a return to a shitty lifestyle and total war. I’m glad every eye available is watching for signs of them pulling nukes out. At least I hope so I think they are afraid to go full "soviet union" mentality against there own population. Ever since the internet and social media has grown roots and gained traction in Russia the younger generations are not used to being treated the way you and I think of when we think of the old days soviet union club beatings they would do if your papers where out of line.. BUT they are used to being treated like subjects controlled by the Russian government. But I believe Putin realizes the latest forced conscription showed strong signs of discontent from the population and he may see a breaking point of control. I maybe dreaming, but surely todays society in Russia, as brainwashed as they are will not accept going back to the days of daily beatings for being a potato short of meeting the quota Yes this is a huge factor. The irony is Putins solid success in raising the standard of living in Russia 2000-2022 paradoxically limits his options for going back to Soviet Times style hardship. There'd just be too much relative depravation. The Soviets were running a harsh government to be sure - but in a land that had basically been a shithole without happiness since forever. Going from Serfdom to WW1 to Bolsheviks to Stalin to Stalingrad... basically not a radical change in quality of life, just constant sorrow (no wonder they like to drink.) Trying to take a Moscovite now with an Iphone and a business job and vacations to Europe and trying to jump back to Soviet time would be a much more profound shock than going from Serfdom to Stalin. yea I agree! They may try and tighten things up soviet style but it will be slow and gradual. If they do attempt it. But then again, I've heard that around the first of the year They may declare Nation wide marshal law and fully mobilize. If they do go full retard and do it, I suspect alot of Discontent coming from inside Russia. |
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Posted: 12/7/2022 6:00:46 AM EDT
[#18]
Quote HistoryBwahahahahhaa!   Thats awesome!!
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Posted: 12/7/2022 7:44:59 AM EDT
[#19]
https://finance.yahoo.com/news/russia-army-running-ammunition-180000133.html
Russia’s Army Is Running Out Of Ammunition Editor OilPrice.com Tue, December 6, 2022, 1:00 PM·6 min read 245 In the ninth month of Russia’s war against Ukraine, it is becoming increasingly obvious that the Russian army is being gradually overtaken by “shell hunger.” This should be expected based on earlier analyzes made in August 2022 (see EDM, August 16, 18) and has been partly confirmed by Estonian intelligence data (Err.ee, November 25), as well as analysis from the United States regarding Moscow’s purchase of artillery ammunition from North Korea (Aa.com, November 11). Overall. critical logistical difficulties continue to plague the Trans-Siberian and Baikal-Amur railways. Thus, we can observe an exhaustion in capacity due to the redirection of supply flows eastward, which is leading to serious economic problems (RBC, November 2). Therefore, we should not exhaust ourselves discussing the possibility of a steady flow of ammunition from North Korea. Meanwhile, arms deliveries from Iran to Russia have been much more stable than from any other source. In addition to the Shahed-136 drones, we can observe Russian soldiers using other pieces of Iranian equipment on the battlefield (T.me/TyskNIP, November 18). With Moscow granting access for Iranian ships to pass through the Volga-Don Canal, we should expect an increase in the supply of Iranian-made ammunition to the Russian side (see EDM, November 14). Much more at link… |
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Posted: 12/7/2022 7:49:11 AM EDT
[#20]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By Jack67: And if they take Crimea before Melitopol? As someone else pointed out yesterday or so, this creates an incentive to alter strategy around the political reality instead of the most efficient battlefield strategy. Personally it’s not a threat. It could have been an innocent remark, a head fake, a few different things. The fact that repeated statements have been made that there will be no “imposed” peace on Ukraine would indicate that. Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By Jack67: Originally Posted By AROKIE: Well hopefully when it comes time to actually take Crimea, they will no longer need our help and will have enough on hand to do so. But yeah that doesnt sound like we will be helping at that point. And if they take Crimea before Melitopol? As someone else pointed out yesterday or so, this creates an incentive to alter strategy around the political reality instead of the most efficient battlefield strategy. Personally it’s not a threat. It could have been an innocent remark, a head fake, a few different things. The fact that repeated statements have been made that there will be no “imposed” peace on Ukraine would indicate that. Putting an enemy at ease, or keeping them off balance is a tactic that is highly effective. It let the Japanese bomb Pearl, after giving us Peace Medals to lull us into a false sense of security. (We gave them back). Sixteen B-25 bombers were selected for the special mission. They were outfitted with doubled fuel capacity through new, rubber tanks and placed on the USS Hornet. With these 16 bombers, Doolittle was to lead a daring raid across Tokyo. Before the raid began, the pilots placed the Japanese peace medals on the bombs.
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Posted: 12/7/2022 7:54:39 AM EDT
[#21]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By Jack67: I don’t “hear” that myself. I hear the opposite, really. I imagine this is colored by how and where you listen - not saying my sources are superior at all, or disputing that is your perception. I listen to what I hear friends and family say, look at the general comment/reply ratio on Twitter, also GD here is even an indicator. I haven’t seen pro-Ukraine sentiment really waver and I’ve seen a decrease in anti-Ukraine sentiment as the war goes well (everyone like a winner, they say). I’m quite optimistic, more so than the early days - much more so. The war crimes, attack on civilians, kidnapping of children - it’s all added up. I’ve seen the core pro-Ukraine positions harden and the soft- and anti- ones weaken. Just a data point, not trying to fight about it. Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By Jack67: Originally Posted By AROKIE: True, My honest Opinion though, is that they will not take Crimea before Melitopol. I have a strong feeling, and not just from these latest remarks from the white house but comments over time and also from the growing impatience of the American people and from congress that we (USA) are looking for a peaceful settlement and that "we" would be OK if that only included feb 2022 losses returned… I don’t “hear” that myself. I hear the opposite, really. I imagine this is colored by how and where you listen - not saying my sources are superior at all, or disputing that is your perception. I listen to what I hear friends and family say, look at the general comment/reply ratio on Twitter, also GD here is even an indicator. I haven’t seen pro-Ukraine sentiment really waver and I’ve seen a decrease in anti-Ukraine sentiment as the war goes well (everyone like a winner, they say). I’m quite optimistic, more so than the early days - much more so. The war crimes, attack on civilians, kidnapping of children - it’s all added up. I’ve seen the core pro-Ukraine positions harden and the soft- and anti- ones weaken. Just a data point, not trying to fight about it. My own experience; The only place I hear anti-Ukrainian sentiment is here on Arfcom. Not at work. Not on TV. Not in the community. Not from friends or family. Nowhere in western WV I’ve been. |
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Posted: 12/7/2022 8:23:45 AM EDT
[#22]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By Dracster: For the umteenth time, our obligations under the BudaMemo were to respect their border, not use nukes or conventional weapons against them, no economic coercion, and to take any issues to the UN. We've done all that. Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By Dracster: Originally Posted By Dominion21: Originally Posted By 1Andy2: Originally Posted By lorazepam: Interesting verbage by the SOS
That's deliberate messaging to Putin that we're going to pressure Ukraine to give up Crimea.  Yep. It is also in direct violation of our obligations under the Budapest memo, to provide guaranteed security to Ukraine in exchange for its nukes. Either boots on the ground, or give them back their nukes. For the umteenth time, our obligations under the BudaMemo were to respect their border, not use nukes or conventional weapons against them, no economic coercion, and to take any issues to the UN. We've done all that. Give it up... been trying to get this through people's skulls for years now. |
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Posted: 12/7/2022 8:25:52 AM EDT
[Last Edit: Lightning_P38]
[#23]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By klinc: Give it up... been trying to get this through people's skulls for years now. ETA: As near as I can tell, the deal was made in a halcyon environment where Russia was going to be a good guy, and the US would reap the rewards of a free world. In the US we really didn't expect the Russians to be back at it so soon, so agreements like that weren't taken seriously. |
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Posted: 12/7/2022 8:28:35 AM EDT
[#24]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By Lightning_P38: I do get it, that doesn't mean we have upheld the "spirit" of the deal. Legal and right are sometimes different things. Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By Lightning_P38: Originally Posted By klinc: Give it up... been trying to get this through people's skulls for years now. What matters is what's on paper here. Ukraine was dumb to sign that with no teeth to it. |
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USA
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Posted: 12/7/2022 8:37:19 AM EDT
[#25]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By Dracster: This was announced a couple months ago. Excalibur in the Czech Republic has started refurbing 120 T-72M for the Ukrainian Armed Forces, paid for by the US and Netherlands. Supposedly, this is the upgrade package: T-72 Avenger - modernization of T-72M1 tank to 3rd gen standard by Czech company Excalibur Army, introduced in 2022. Includes most of Scarab modernization and more. Addition of 196 reactive armour segments that add equivalent of 400mm steel protection. New optical and electronical targeting system, modernized night vision Optistrade for all three crew members. New laser rangefinder and improved commander's and driver's sight. Night vision system that works in full passive mode without using infrared light. Improved thermal sight with ballistic computer. Periscopical sights with anti-laser protection. Modernized powerpack with increased power (840 HP). Complete modernization of driver's cockpit including digital interface. New internal and external system of communication, digital radio enabling encrypted communication. New fire protection system. https://www.ar15.com/media/mediaFiles/48680/photo_2022-12-06_13-28-29__3__jpg-2626136.JPG https://www.ar15.com/media/mediaFiles/48680/photo_2022-12-06_13-28-29__2__jpg-2626139.JPG https://www.ar15.com/media/mediaFiles/48680/photo_2022-12-06_13-28-29_jpg-2626141.JPG Thanks Dracster  Appreciate the list of T-72 upgrades. These upgraded T-72s will join other upgraded T72s from Poland, which are already in service with a Ukraine. The Polish Twardys already saw service in the assault on Kherson. The Twardy upgrades include: The new ERAWA [pl] dynamic armour, developed by the Poland Military-Technical Institute, increased the main battle tank's protection from high-explosive anti-tank (HEAT) projectiles and missiles. The protection consisted of 394 tiles with explosives, which would detonate in case of a direct hit. The tiles cover 9 m2 of the tank: 108 are placed on the turret, 118 on the hull and 84 on each side's anti-HEAT screens. The Twardy uses steel anti-HEAT screens instead of the rubber one used on the T-72. The ERAWA tiles fit together almost without gaps, unlike the gaps on the modernized Soviet T-72 which measure up to 10–15 mm, noticeably decreasing their defensive effectiveness. There are two ERAWA modifications: ERAWA-1 and -2, differing in weight of the explosives. Experiments showed that the ERAWA dynamic defense decreases the high-explosive jet impact depth by 50–70% and that of penetrator (APFSDS) projectiles by 30–40%. Furthermore, ERAWA's explosive containers do not detonate when hit by a shot of up to 30 mm calibre or by shell or mine fragments, or when covered in burning napalm or petrol. The modernization of the fire control system began with replacing the older Soviet 2Є28M two-plane stabilizer with a new stabilizer developed in Slovakia. The system has an electronic information block showing the tank's technical condition. Furthermore, it informs the commander when the sighted fire becomes ineffective from excessively high cross-country speed or other reasons. The Drawa (uzbrojenie) [pl] fire control system, developed by Polish engineers, contains the PCD gunner's day sight and the TES thermovision night sight developed by the Israeli company El-Op, the POD-72commander's combined day-night passive observation and aiming sight, a ballistic computer, a laser rangefinder, and a data system processing information for the ballistic computer. The sighting of the ballistic computer depends on the target's speed, weather conditions, projectile temperature, and projectile type.  However, my bet is the biggest upgrade to any tank in Ukrainian service is: - western tactics and training. In contrast, the Russian tankers have shown idiocy in their tactics, deployment, concealment, and overall use of their tanks. |
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Posted: 12/7/2022 8:58:43 AM EDT
[#26]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By Easterner: https://www.ar15.com/media/mediaFiles/526834/IMG_20221207_101942_jpg-2626847.JPG Молодец! Come on boys, lets get 100,000 before Christmas. You can do it. |
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Posted: 12/7/2022 9:05:05 AM EDT
[#27]
Interesting miss.
“Red backpack” from Mariupol was injured at some point. The legendary platoon commanders of the 810th Marine Brigade of the Black Sea Fleet, Struna and Rokot, gave an interview to @rt_russian, where they answered questions about the battles for Mariupol, and why Struna still hasn’t shown his face. Recall that on October 21, by presidential decree, for courage, courage and heroism shown during the assault on Mariupol, Struna was awarded the title of Hero of Russia. At the moment, both Struna and Rokot are undergoing rehabilitation after being injured during the explosions. @milinfolive https://t.me/ok_spn/22108 |
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Posted: 12/7/2022 10:18:31 AM EDT
[#28]
Originally Posted By Jack67: Ok, factor this in, and maybe it will help you feel good about being wrong: ;) (full humility - I hope/pray my analysis is correct) - I believe that Blinken and Austin are effectively in-charge. I don’t think the WH is really running this in the details. (And that’s how it should be). - This is NOT a bad thing wrt those guys and their staffs. They are neocons of the first order, along with a lot of the senior SD staff - Nuland, etc. - Maybe they got the WOT wrong, but their philosophy is built for this kind of conflict. - The hard left HATES them and attacked them when nominated. So read that for what it is. - FP is the one place the hard left was f*&ked wrt to getting their people installed in the Biden admin. - thank God. Here’s some left hatred from pre-war on Blinken, et al.: https://www.salon.com/2022/04/12/pimps-of-war-neocons-fueled-20-years-of-carnage-in-the-middle-east-are-back-for-more/ https://www.washingtonpost.com/outlook/2020/12/15/biden-foreign-policy-interventionism-war/ Once I got to this realization in spring/late spring, I was more confident about how this would play out, even if not as aggressively as I would like or hope. Everything Biden has personally signaled (Putin must go, no compromise peace) gives them overhead room to be even more aggressive than they are. I think they are playing it well. Very well. I think this is a very reasonable take. Fits with my thinking that Biden and Co aren't the ones calling the plays on this and told others, "Try and make us look competent after Afghanistan." Originally Posted By sq40: https://finance.yahoo.com/news/russia-army-running-ammunition-180000133.html Will this be posted as prolifically in GD as the "uS iS rUnNiNg OuT oF aMmO" handwringing? Betting not...  Originally Posted By sq40: My own experience; The only place I hear anti-Ukrainian sentiment is here on Arfcom. Not at work. Not on TV. Not in the community. Not from friends or family. Nowhere in western WV I’ve been. Same. I know "anecdote" doesn't account for evidence but literally everyone I personally know is anti-Russia. That said, of those, only one takes as deep an interest in how this conflict is progressing as I and another somewhat less so than that. Both vets, one Cold War and one GWOT. |
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Posted: 12/7/2022 10:20:45 AM EDT
[Last Edit: AlmightyTallest]
[#29]
  https://www.airandspaceforces.com/laplante-congress-will-support-multiyear-weapons-munitions-procurements/
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Posted: 12/7/2022 10:23:18 AM EDT
[#30]
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Posted: 12/7/2022 10:24:36 AM EDT
[Last Edit: AlmightyTallest]
[#31]
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Posted: 12/7/2022 10:25:33 AM EDT
[#32]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By woozman: I don’t like that Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By woozman: Originally Posted By lorazepam: Interesting verbage by the SOS
I don’t like that Explain please..... CMOS |
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USA
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Posted: 12/7/2022 10:26:00 AM EDT
[Last Edit: general_cluster]
[#33]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By sq40: My own experience; The only place I hear anti-Ukrainian sentiment is here on Arfcom. Not at work. Not on TV. Not in the community. Not from friends or family. Nowhere in western WV I’ve been. Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By sq40: Originally Posted By Jack67: Originally Posted By AROKIE: True, My honest Opinion though, is that they will not take Crimea before Melitopol. I have a strong feeling, and not just from these latest remarks from the white house but comments over time and also from the growing impatience of the American people and from congress that we (USA) are looking for a peaceful settlement and that "we" would be OK if that only included feb 2022 losses returned… I don’t “hear” that myself. I hear the opposite, really. I imagine this is colored by how and where you listen - not saying my sources are superior at all, or disputing that is your perception. I listen to what I hear friends and family say, look at the general comment/reply ratio on Twitter, also GD here is even an indicator. I haven’t seen pro-Ukraine sentiment really waver and I’ve seen a decrease in anti-Ukraine sentiment as the war goes well (everyone like a winner, they say). I’m quite optimistic, more so than the early days - much more so. The war crimes, attack on civilians, kidnapping of children - it’s all added up. I’ve seen the core pro-Ukraine positions harden and the soft- and anti- ones weaken. Just a data point, not trying to fight about it. My own experience; The only place I hear anti-Ukrainian sentiment is here on Arfcom. Not at work. Not on TV. Not in the community. Not from friends or family. Nowhere in western WV I’ve been. I've only heard from 2 anti-ukrainians IRL. One is an insane but gullible neighbor. The other doesn't openly oppose the Ukrainian efforts per se, but has become convinced that the corruption is so substantial that we shouldn't be sending any dollars It's strange to hear, because he is a smart guy that understands that there is corruption/waste in most government spending, but for some reason thinks it outweighs the benefit here. I send him videos and tallies to drive home what a great deal we are getting and troll just a little bit. In my experience, most people don't seem to know or think about what is going on over there. Just another anecdotal data point. |
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Posted: 12/7/2022 10:27:25 AM EDT
[#34]
3 hrs ago, if true, it's on.
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Posted: 12/7/2022 10:29:20 AM EDT
[#35]
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MI, USA
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Posted: 12/7/2022 10:29:32 AM EDT
[#36]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By Ryan_Ruck: I think this is a very reasonable take. Fits with my thinking that Biden and Co aren't the ones calling the plays on this and told others, "Try and make us look competent after Afghanistan." Will this be posted as prolifically in GD as the "uS iS rUnNiNg OuT oF aMmO" handwringing? Betting not... Same. I know "anecdote" doesn't account for evidence but literally everyone I personally know is anti-Russia. That said, of those, only one takes as deep an interest in how this conflict is progressing as I and another somewhat less so than that. Both vets, one Cold War and one GWOT. Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By Ryan_Ruck: Originally Posted By Jack67: Ok, factor this in, and maybe it will help you feel good about being wrong: ;) (full humility - I hope/pray my analysis is correct) - I believe that Blinken and Austin are effectively in-charge. I don’t think the WH is really running this in the details. (And that’s how it should be). - This is NOT a bad thing wrt those guys and their staffs. They are neocons of the first order, along with a lot of the senior SD staff - Nuland, etc. - Maybe they got the WOT wrong, but their philosophy is built for this kind of conflict. - The hard left HATES them and attacked them when nominated. So read that for what it is. - FP is the one place the hard left was f*&ked wrt to getting their people installed in the Biden admin. - thank God. Here’s some left hatred from pre-war on Blinken, et al.: https://www.salon.com/2022/04/12/pimps-of-war-neocons-fueled-20-years-of-carnage-in-the-middle-east-are-back-for-more/ https://www.washingtonpost.com/outlook/2020/12/15/biden-foreign-policy-interventionism-war/ Once I got to this realization in spring/late spring, I was more confident about how this would play out, even if not as aggressively as I would like or hope. Everything Biden has personally signaled (Putin must go, no compromise peace) gives them overhead room to be even more aggressive than they are. I think they are playing it well. Very well. I think this is a very reasonable take. Fits with my thinking that Biden and Co aren't the ones calling the plays on this and told others, "Try and make us look competent after Afghanistan." Originally Posted By sq40: https://finance.yahoo.com/news/russia-army-running-ammunition-180000133.html Will this be posted as prolifically in GD as the "uS iS rUnNiNg OuT oF aMmO" handwringing? Betting not... Originally Posted By sq40: My own experience; The only place I hear anti-Ukrainian sentiment is here on Arfcom. Not at work. Not on TV. Not in the community. Not from friends or family. Nowhere in western WV I’ve been. Same. I know "anecdote" doesn't account for evidence but literally everyone I personally know is anti-Russia. That said, of those, only one takes as deep an interest in how this conflict is progressing as I and another somewhat less so than that. Both vets, one Cold War and one GWOT. My mother's partner (she and him are both widowers) is hugely anti-Ukraine. He's early 70s, retired, flies 2 Trump flags at the house and sits in front of Fox News literally all day. |
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Posted: 12/7/2022 10:29:34 AM EDT
[#37]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By sq40: https://www.ar15.com/media/mediaFiles/49447/27EEEE0C-0E2B-4E02-851F-A55AFC557832_jpe-2626952.JPG I'm honestly surprised. Figured they go with some confused person that accomplished nothing. |
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Posted: 12/7/2022 10:30:02 AM EDT
[#38]
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Posted: 12/7/2022 10:30:15 AM EDT
[#39]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By Ryan_Ruck: I think this is a very reasonable take. Fits with my thinking that Biden and Co aren't the ones calling the plays on this and told others, "Try and make us look competent after Afghanistan." Will this be posted as prolifically in GD as the "uS iS rUnNiNg OuT oF aMmO" handwringing? Betting not... Same. I know "anecdote" doesn't account for evidence but literally everyone I personally know is anti-Russia. That said, of those, only one takes as deep an interest in how this conflict is progressing as I and another somewhat less so than that. Both vets, one Cold War and one GWOT. Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By Ryan_Ruck: Originally Posted By Jack67: Ok, factor this in, and maybe it will help you feel good about being wrong: ;) (full humility - I hope/pray my analysis is correct) - I believe that Blinken and Austin are effectively in-charge. I don’t think the WH is really running this in the details. (And that’s how it should be). - This is NOT a bad thing wrt those guys and their staffs. They are neocons of the first order, along with a lot of the senior SD staff - Nuland, etc. - Maybe they got the WOT wrong, but their philosophy is built for this kind of conflict. - The hard left HATES them and attacked them when nominated. So read that for what it is. - FP is the one place the hard left was f*&ked wrt to getting their people installed in the Biden admin. - thank God. Here’s some left hatred from pre-war on Blinken, et al.: https://www.salon.com/2022/04/12/pimps-of-war-neocons-fueled-20-years-of-carnage-in-the-middle-east-are-back-for-more/ https://www.washingtonpost.com/outlook/2020/12/15/biden-foreign-policy-interventionism-war/ Once I got to this realization in spring/late spring, I was more confident about how this would play out, even if not as aggressively as I would like or hope. Everything Biden has personally signaled (Putin must go, no compromise peace) gives them overhead room to be even more aggressive than they are. I think they are playing it well. Very well. I think this is a very reasonable take. Fits with my thinking that Biden and Co aren't the ones calling the plays on this and told others, "Try and make us look competent after Afghanistan." Originally Posted By sq40: https://finance.yahoo.com/news/russia-army-running-ammunition-180000133.html Will this be posted as prolifically in GD as the "uS iS rUnNiNg OuT oF aMmO" handwringing? Betting not... Originally Posted By sq40: My own experience; The only place I hear anti-Ukrainian sentiment is here on Arfcom. Not at work. Not on TV. Not in the community. Not from friends or family. Nowhere in western WV I’ve been. Same. I know "anecdote" doesn't account for evidence but literally everyone I personally know is anti-Russia. That said, of those, only one takes as deep an interest in how this conflict is progressing as I and another somewhat less so than that. Both vets, one Cold War and one GWOT. From my experience the folks under 35 or so don’t seem to keep up much on the topic. The older people are, they more they dislike Russia which makes sense. Those of us that remember always being under threat of getting nuked by the Soviets, at any moment, are typically “fuck Russia” for good reason. Some would rather do away with Russia all together as it’s a cancer on the world. I don’t advocate genocide. I would love to see the whole thing broken up into manageable pieces. |
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Posted: 12/7/2022 10:30:51 AM EDT
[#40]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By trapsh00ter99: Cola Warrior: Sunflower Fields  Heck, even an ARF meet up in Ukraine would be pretty epic. My FIL can arrange a trip to the skeet field and "carbine" range. My MIL spoke with friend of FIL who delivered some of the supplies we collected in Team to an element of the 36th Marine Brigade in the Donetsk Oblast (he said I could say where but I'll refrain from specifics). The were originally in Kherson, but moved over after the Russians retreated. This is now the 3rd time they have been formed up, as they were one of the original units in Mariupol and all but destroyed. Mostly young and/or green soldiers. Said they believe they are outnumbered in this area 8:1, but the Russians are just doing non organized charges again and again. The merino wool socks and thermals were very much appreciated as none of the soldiers had what was proper for their situation. I couldn't imagine being in that mud with cotton socks. It sounds like they are doing good rotations, keeping the troops on the front fresh. I have heard from someone else they do 1 week on the first line of contact, then 2 in the rear. They sent me a video of their drive in from inside the HMMWV, and I was very easily able to geolocate the exact road they drove in on, so I won't share that. They said these photos are all safe to share. I asked if they wanted their faces blurred and the response was "No, show the world the defenders of Ukraine." They are no more than 3 miles from Russian positions. They send thanks to everyone who donated https://www.ar15.com/media/mediaFiles/184365/feda8bb2--2626333.jpg https://www.ar15.com/media/mediaFiles/184365/f89d2602--2626332.jpg Thank you messages https://www.ar15.com/media/mediaFiles/184365/b34e6a8b--2626331.jpg Bag of wool socks/thermals/beanies from ARF https://www.ar15.com/media/mediaFiles/184365/53035837--2626330.jpg https://www.ar15.com/media/mediaFiles/184365/96fd27e5--2626329.jpg https://www.ar15.com/media/mediaFiles/184365/64cd0243--2626328.jpg https://www.ar15.com/media/mediaFiles/184365/6ef5adc9--2626327.jpg https://www.ar15.com/media/mediaFiles/184365/6b9d532d--2626326.jpg https://www.ar15.com/media/mediaFiles/184365/4ffeea10--2626325.jpg Simply fantastic. I'm ready to support another shipment! CMOS |
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Posted: 12/7/2022 10:32:39 AM EDT
[#41]
Just now.
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Posted: 12/7/2022 10:33:48 AM EDT
[#42]
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Posted: 12/7/2022 10:35:28 AM EDT
[#43]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By AlmightyTallest:
 Attached File |
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Posted: 12/7/2022 10:35:49 AM EDT
[#44]
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Posted: 12/7/2022 10:36:42 AM EDT
[#45]
3 hrs ago.
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Posted: 12/7/2022 10:38:33 AM EDT
[#46]
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Posted: 12/7/2022 10:40:29 AM EDT
[#47]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By general_cluster: I've only heard from 2 anti-ukrainians IRL. One is an insane but gullible neighbor. The other doesn't openly oppose the Ukrainian efforts per se, but has become convinced that the corruption is so substantial that we shouldn't be sending any dollars It's strange to hear, because he is a smart guy that understands that there is corruption/waste in most government spending, but for some reason thinks it outweighs the benefit here. I send him videos and tallies to drive home what a great deal we are getting and troll just a little bit. In my experience, most people don't seem to know or think about what is going on over there. Just another anecdotal data point. Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By general_cluster: Originally Posted By sq40: Originally Posted By Jack67: Originally Posted By AROKIE: True, My honest Opinion though, is that they will not take Crimea before Melitopol. I have a strong feeling, and not just from these latest remarks from the white house but comments over time and also from the growing impatience of the American people and from congress that we (USA) are looking for a peaceful settlement and that "we" would be OK if that only included feb 2022 losses returned… I don’t “hear” that myself. I hear the opposite, really. I imagine this is colored by how and where you listen - not saying my sources are superior at all, or disputing that is your perception. I listen to what I hear friends and family say, look at the general comment/reply ratio on Twitter, also GD here is even an indicator. I haven’t seen pro-Ukraine sentiment really waver and I’ve seen a decrease in anti-Ukraine sentiment as the war goes well (everyone like a winner, they say). I’m quite optimistic, more so than the early days - much more so. The war crimes, attack on civilians, kidnapping of children - it’s all added up. I’ve seen the core pro-Ukraine positions harden and the soft- and anti- ones weaken. Just a data point, not trying to fight about it. My own experience; The only place I hear anti-Ukrainian sentiment is here on Arfcom. Not at work. Not on TV. Not in the community. Not from friends or family. Nowhere in western WV I’ve been. I've only heard from 2 anti-ukrainians IRL. One is an insane but gullible neighbor. The other doesn't openly oppose the Ukrainian efforts per se, but has become convinced that the corruption is so substantial that we shouldn't be sending any dollars It's strange to hear, because he is a smart guy that understands that there is corruption/waste in most government spending, but for some reason thinks it outweighs the benefit here. I send him videos and tallies to drive home what a great deal we are getting and troll just a little bit. In my experience, most people don't seem to know or think about what is going on over there. Just another anecdotal data point. I'm surrounded by pro Orcs around me...and I have become secluded from the stupidness of people. |
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Posted: 12/7/2022 10:40:51 AM EDT
[#48]
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Posted: 12/7/2022 10:42:47 AM EDT
[#49]
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Posted: 12/7/2022 10:45:16 AM EDT
[#50]
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