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Posted: 12/7/2022 10:45:22 AM EDT
[#1]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By Jack67: “Priming the pump” in economic terms is NOT conservative or liberal - it’s just economics. Tested and proven. Labeling it one way or the other is a red herring. Even if there’s, oh let’s say 50% break-even on arm sales world-wide vs. donated to Ukraine, it’s still going to be a massive windfall in the long run from: - multiplier effect of activity in the US economy from increased production - increased long-term trade activity from sales (downstream maintenance contracts, etc.) - increased unrelated economic activity from a more secure global trade environment - reinforcement of the USD as the global reserve currency Plus, it’s the correct moral and legal thing to do, so there’s that. If someone complains about the cost to the US, show them our total budget outlays for welfare spending/transfer payments, and then hand them a catalog of a local community college with a decent macroeconomics course. To bottom line it, it starts with this: https://www.ar15.com/media/mediaFiles/556465/DBFAE496-1076-4C4E-9F8C-BF1346859304_jpe-2626306.JPG (Source: visegrad 24 via twitter) This is the kind of crap that causes people to hate Ukraine bros, and chases reasoned opinions from this thread, making it an echo chamber. This is not a black and white, everything from Ukraine is perfect and Holy situation. There are legitimate issues both within Ukraine and in the support by our .gov. Yet here we are again, with any dissention getting dismissed out of hand. I appreciate and respect your analysis, but you've completely missed the point. If priming the pump is so effective, why aren't lockmart and ratheon doing it themselves, knowing that they will be repaid in spades? What we're doing is priming the pump of private companies with public money. If you think that is conservative, you're part of the problem. It is going to be VERY hard to separate what is actually new sales brought on by this war, and what was going to come through anyway. Second and third order benefits to the economy will largely be offset by the second and third order costs of the money spent sending stuff now. And if you want to play economics snob, let's talk about the time value of money with regard to how long it's going to take to pay this pump priming back. I've already agreed that it is the moral thing to do, so why the strawman? |
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Posted: 12/7/2022 10:48:00 AM EDT
[#2]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By CMOS: Explain please..... CMOS Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By CMOS: Originally Posted By woozman: Originally Posted By lorazepam: Interesting verbage by the SOS
I don’t like that Explain please..... CMOS Russia occupied Crimea before Feb 24. |
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Posted: 12/7/2022 10:54:59 AM EDT
[#3]
Russian TG
I've been thinking. What happens if he dies... We are all mortal. Will the war end? No. Will the system change? Also no. It's hard for me to even predict. It's interesting to hear your opinions. Required with arguments. ✏️ @ieZekiil_9 2️⃣0️⃣5️⃣ https://t.me/mototroopers_205/734 The MoD has launched the possibility of sending letters to our fighters by relatives. Letters blya.b?! Elon Musk wake me up! ✏️ @ieZekiil_9 2️⃣0️⃣5️⃣ https://t.me/mototroopers_205/739 This same channel says “we need to stop treating them with such humanity”. DONETSK. VERY UNPLEASANT FACT TO ACCEPT: Ukrainian artillery does whatever it wants. And the Russian "counter-battery struggle" is not a decree for her. We cannot oppose anything to the artillery of the Armed Forces of Ukraine regarding the security of Donetsk. All talk about our superiority in artillery remains an empty phrase: we have neither ground reconnaissance weapons nor UAVs capable of instantly detecting enemy fire weapons and destroying them. Do they know about this state of affairs? Do they report to the top about such a situation with intelligence equipment? We are prophesied great things, how can we go on the offensive with such support? Where does this talk about lack of ammunition come from? Why are we again washing ourselves with the blood of civilians, Russians? Why is the population not being explained the path that led us to the bloodiest days of Donetsk in the entire war since 2014? From Donetsk, no one groans, everyone just gnashes their teeth in hatred. But Donetsk is doing everything to take ours, all the men went to the front, the population does not panic and holds on. Will we pay tribute to Donetsk or not? Or will we be patient? And as for the general situation, we must admit to ourselves and report to self-respecting responsible persons upstairs that even now, and all these 10 months, we do not have and did not have real means of conducting counter-battery combat, our artillery is blind. Come on, take courage and report. Finally, a sane explanation has appeared on the network as to why Strategic Aviation aircraft are in the open. “There are several factors: 1) Departure speed. If the aircraft is in the hangar, then the deployment speed is three times slower. That can play a strong role in a sharp aggravation of the conflict. Plus, in the hangar of a strategic bomber, you won't turn on the engine. It will have to be pulled out by heavy (equipment). 2) The size of the hangar must be very large. Because an airplane is a gigantic thing that requires an appropriate garage, which is extremely costly in finance. Under a large hangar area, you cannot make a roof that will be at least somewhat effective protection. If a UAV hits it, the roof will collapse and the consequences can be even worse. 3) Hangars must be removed from the runway, otherwise it will be inconvenient and dangerous to maneuver. We need large areas of the airfield. This, again, is damage in terms of takeoff speed. By the way, American strategic bombers are also in the open air.” However, this does not change the factor that in this case it was necessary to calculate all the risks long ago and strengthen the safety of such airfields. After all, the Americans do not have a war with the Mexicans at hand, who can launch any crap from a catapult and damage expensive and essential equipment. @NeoficialniyBeZsonoV https://t.me/rusich_army/6716 Turned in the war published photos of a Ukrainian homemade drone that was used to attack Russian airfields. Judging by its specifications, these drones can be launched directly from the depths of Russian territory. In this case, questions about countering such threats arise not only for air defense, but also for the forces providing the perimeter of strategic facilities, as well as those providing counterintelligence activities. In the current situation, it is absolutely unacceptable when the security of a huge airfield is provided by only a few dozen people, who, moreover, take shifts on duty and do not have the necessary technical means. This also applies to the number of operating air defense systems. It is simply impossible to organize a security zone for tens of kilometers around with such forces, and so far the "leaky" border allows enemy DRGs to penetrate our territory and carry out their subversive activities. @milinfolive https://t.me/milinfolive/94156 First of all, in order to solve the problem with such UAVs, it is necessary to solve the problem with the insufficient number of personnel guarding strategic facilities. For this, territorial defense battalions should be deployed. No, this does not mean that the actual militia, in the event of a collision with enemy special forces, will shoot them with one left. This means that the perimeter around the facility will be saturated with personnel, patrols and checkpoints, which will make it much more difficult for the enemy to penetrate the territory, increase the chances of their detection, and hence the failure of the entire operation. Perhaps it will completely force you to refuse to hold it. To solve the problem of launching low-observable UAVs, it is necessary to have a radar with AFAR and modern balloons. For example, such as AKV-05, which have already been deployed in Syria to protect the perimeter of the Khmeimim air base just after the successful attack by militant UAVs. Effective detection and destruction of a small UAV can only be provided by a modern anti-aircraft complex, which has a radar with an active phased antenna array. Yes, it's very expensive. However, the consequences of attacks on air bases will cost many times more. Remember Novofedorovka in the Crimea. Recent attacks on strategic aviation airfields only miraculously cost little blood, and the enemy in an interview with Western media directly states that he will not abandon his attempts to deliver strikes in the depths of Russia. It is simply impossible to carry out such a complex of events in two weeks. However, the question has long been not about two weeks. The enemy has long been attacking our facilities in the rear with the help of commercial drones with explosives, and we must be prepared for this. @milinfolive https://t.me/milinfolive/94157 |
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USA
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Posted: 12/7/2022 11:01:06 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 4xGM300m]
[#4]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By AlmightyTallest:
 Total BS, extremly exaggerated. A few days ago a 14 year old girl got murdered by a refugee from Africa. Everytime shit like this happens and wont go away after 2 days, the police in Germany raids a domestic terrorist group. The last time it was a 71 year old woman with a pellet gun and some drunk morons. |
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Posted: 12/7/2022 11:08:10 AM EDT
[#5]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By QUACK32: Head wound, one of my workers got a big gash on his scalp and it was real thick almost clumpy blood dripping on the floor, like on that vest. hat. I’ve had some non serious head injuries (scalp etc) from construction and life injuries that always bled copious amounts of blood only needing a stitch or three. Head wounds bleed a lot. |
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GBR
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Posted: 12/7/2022 11:15:04 AM EDT
[#6]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By AlmightyTallest: Just now.
https://pbs.twimg.com/media/FjYcGDtXoAUIuKT?format=jpg&name=360x360 Tweet has gone. Big badaboom? |
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Posted: 12/7/2022 11:15:50 AM EDT
[#7]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By AlmightyTallest:
When T$ boosted the military budget it was widely praised here. Now it's happening under FJB and it's "muh MIC and forever wars". 
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GBR
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Posted: 12/7/2022 11:18:45 AM EDT
[#8]
Do you think anyone is going to have a firm 'word' with Iran about supplying the orcs?
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Posted: 12/7/2022 11:23:44 AM EDT
[#9]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By 4xGM300m: Total BS, extremly exaggerated. A few days ago a 14 year old girl got murdered by a refugee from Africa. Everytime shit like this happens and wont go away after 2 days, the police in Germany raids a domestic terrorist group. The last time it was a 71 year old woman with a pellet gun and some drunk morons. Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By 4xGM300m: Originally Posted By AlmightyTallest:
Total BS, extremly exaggerated. A few days ago a 14 year old girl got murdered by a refugee from Africa. Everytime shit like this happens and wont go away after 2 days, the police in Germany raids a domestic terrorist group. The last time it was a 71 year old woman with a pellet gun and some drunk morons. It certainly seemed alarming, but your input puts it in perspective then. 
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Posted: 12/7/2022 11:24:44 AM EDT
[#10]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By ecophon: Tweet has gone. Big badaboom? Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By ecophon: Originally Posted By AlmightyTallest: Just now.
https://pbs.twimg.com/media/FjYcGDtXoAUIuKT?format=jpg&name=360x360 Tweet has gone. Big badaboom? Yea, looked like a decent sized ammo dump with secondaries. |
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Posted: 12/7/2022 11:27:14 AM EDT
[#11]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By ecophon: Do you think anyone is going to have a firm 'word' with Iran about supplying the orcs? Israel threatened to supply Ukraine with ballistic missiles if the Russians got theirs from Iran a few weeks ago. |
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Posted: 12/7/2022 11:29:12 AM EDT
[Last Edit: AlmightyTallest]
[#12]
Looking at Prime's tweets above, that drone looks like a new model we haven't seen on Russian soil before.
These tweets might be more clues. New wave of naval drones coming.
New drones used to target the Russian airfields not yet disclosed.
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Posted: 12/7/2022 11:30:13 AM EDT
[#13]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By Eat_Beef: This is the kind of crap that causes people to hate Ukraine bros, and chases reasoned opinions from this thread, making it an echo chamber. This is not a black and white, everything from Ukraine is perfect and Holy situation. There are legitimate issues both within Ukraine and in the support by our .gov. Yet here we are again, with any dissention getting dismissed out of hand. I appreciate and respect your analysis, but you've completely missed the point. If priming the pump is so effective, why aren't lockmart and ratheon doing it themselves, knowing that they will be repaid in spades? What we're doing is priming the pump of private companies with public money. If you think that is conservative, you're part of the problem. It is going to be VERY hard to separate what is actually new sales brought on by this war, and what was going to come through anyway. Second and third order benefits to the economy will largely be offset by the second and third order costs of the money spent sending stuff now. And if you want to play economics snob, let's talk about the time value of money with regard to how long it's going to take to pay this pump priming back. I've already agreed that it is the moral thing to do, so why the strawman? The biggest problem Ukraine has had is getting out from under the boot of russia. Every step they take, russia attacks. They kicked out the pro russian leadership when they fucked them over on the EU trade agreement. The country agreed to align with europe on trade and ideals. Yanukovich was supposed to sign the deal, and went to russia and signed a deal with them instead. The Ukrainians, who appear to have more balls than Americans started protesting in the square in Kyiv. Yanukovich henchmen killed over 100 protesters before he was thrown out. Right after this is when russia invaded crimea and the eastern part Ukraine. We just let it happen, along with europe. Zelensky gets elected much like Trump, an outsider who ran on an anti corruption ticket. The communists were pretty much wiped out in the election, and the next thing you know, russia invades with no pretense of it being separatists. Watch winter on fire. It is a documentary about the Maidan Square protests and shows what the people there are fighting. They deserve our help, we after all talked them into disarming themselves twice. Once with the nukes, and again with small arms under jugears. Winter on fire is on Netflix or Youtube. Worth the time. I watched it online as it happened. Holy shit was it crazy. |
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Posted: 12/7/2022 11:32:54 AM EDT
[Last Edit: Easterner]
[#14]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By lorazepam: The biggest problem Ukraine has had is getting out from under the boot of russia. Every step they take, russia attacks. They kicked out the pro russian leadership when they fucked them over on the EU trade agreement. The country agreed to align with europe on trade and ideals. Yanukovich was supposed to sign the deal, and went to russia and signed a deal with them instead. The Ukrainians, who appear to have more balls than Americans started protesting in the square in Kyiv. Yanukovich henchmen killed over 100 protesters before he was thrown out. Right after this is when russia invaded crimea and the eastern part Ukraine. We just let it happen, along with europe. Zelensky gets elected much like Trump, an outsider who ran on an anti corruption ticket. The communists were pretty much wiped out in the election, and the next thing you know, russia invades with no pretense of it being separatists. Watch winter on fire. It is a documentary about the Maidan Square protests and shows what the people there are fighting. They deserve our help, we after all talked them into disarming themselves twice. Once with the nukes, and again with small arms under jugears. Winter on fire is on Netflix or Youtube. Worth the time. I watched it online as it happened. Holy shit was it crazy. Yes that's a good film to watch. Got dusty watching those kids dying in the streets unarmed. Kyiv has a few monuments to the "Heavenly Hundred". 
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Posted: 12/7/2022 11:34:14 AM EDT
[#15]
"Russia expelled from the Parliamentary Assembly of the Organization of Black Sea Economic Cooperation (PABSEC)."
https://ukrainefrontlines.com/politics/russia-expelled-from-yet-another-international-organization/ |
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Posted: 12/7/2022 11:36:51 AM EDT
[#16]
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Posted: 12/7/2022 11:37:35 AM EDT
[#17]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By Chaingun: For a variety of reasons UA will not be receiving this delivery system, primarily the rotting potato admin doesn't want them launching missiles too far. They need to come up with their own aircraft or helo platform to extend their GLMRS missiles from 50 miles to 150 miles pure speculation on my part. But I think the powers that be, decided its better not to play our hand when it comes to LRBM. Right now its anybodies guess as to how effective they would be. Regardless of how effective they are, Russia would use the intel to become more effective at interdicting them and then using the wreckage and duds to improve upon their own weapons capabilities. No need to educate and strengthen our enemies at this point. Just my theory, anyways. |
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Posted: 12/7/2022 11:38:28 AM EDT
[Last Edit: Prime]
[#18]
Active shooter incident a few days ago, and I should also say that this is Russian TG-
The deserter who opened fire on the police turned out to be a failed "fighter" of PMC "Wagner". They searched for him for about a day and found him in an abandoned farm. According to media reports, Pavel Nikolin was serving time for theft and robbery in the Ufimskaya IK-4. From there, he was recruited into the Wagner PMC. On November 24, Nikolin changed his mind about fighting and fled. P.S. Were there any jokes about detachments already? I think there will be a new series of the series "Merry Sledgehammer" soon!😂 https://t.me/separ_13/5772 |
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Posted: 12/7/2022 11:42:48 AM EDT
[#19]
You can start seeing how these defense purchases from other countries start trickling down to other purchases and suppliers.
Poland, you are scary.  
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MI, USA
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Posted: 12/7/2022 11:49:28 AM EDT
[#20]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By Easterner: Yes that'd a good film to watch. Got dusty watching those kids dying in the streets unarmed. Kyiv has a few monuments to the "Heavenly Hundred". 
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Posted: 12/7/2022 11:50:19 AM EDT
[Last Edit: AlmightyTallest]
[#21]
From Prime's link before, the images of the Ukrainian drones that Russia claims attacked the airbases.
I'm beginning to wonder if these are the U.S. made longer range Phoenix Ghost drones that were similar to the Switchblades.
   
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USA
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Posted: 12/7/2022 11:52:14 AM EDT
[#22]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By AlmightyTallest: It certainly seemed alarming, but your input puts it in perspective then. Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By AlmightyTallest: Originally Posted By 4xGM300m: Originally Posted By AlmightyTallest:
Total BS, extremly exaggerated. A few days ago a 14 year old girl got murdered by a refugee from Africa. Everytime shit like this happens and wont go away after 2 days, the police in Germany raids a domestic terrorist group. The last time it was a 71 year old woman with a pellet gun and some drunk morons. It certainly seemed alarming, but your input puts it in perspective then. Everytime the Gov. want to cover up some news story it is an outlaw motorcycle gang, an islamist terrorist group, a domestic terrorist group or big family clans associated with the organized crime they raid within two or three days. Now nobody speaks about the murdered girl anymore. The German Gov. is maintaining a stock of this groups to raid when needed. |
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Posted: 12/7/2022 12:03:54 PM EDT
[#23]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By stone-age:  That's freakin funny.Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By stone-age: Originally Posted By jungatheart: Polish friend of mine asked if I could read write or speak Polish. When said no he asked how it felt to be dumber than a Polack. That's freakin funny.Seriously. I literally laffed out loud. |
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Posted: 12/7/2022 12:05:33 PM EDT
[#24]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By Eat_Beef: This is the kind of crap that causes people to hate Ukraine bros, and chases reasoned opinions from this thread, making it an echo chamber. This is not a black and white, everything from Ukraine is perfect and Holy situation. There are legitimate issues both within Ukraine and in the support by our .gov. Yet here we are again, with any dissention getting dismissed out of hand. I appreciate and respect your analysis, but you've completely missed the point. If priming the pump is so effective, why aren't lockmart and ratheon doing it themselves, knowing that they will be repaid in spades? What we're doing is priming the pump of private companies with public money. If you think that is conservative, you're part of the problem. It is going to be VERY hard to separate what is actually new sales brought on by this war, and what was going to come through anyway. Second and third order benefits to the economy will largely be offset by the second and third order costs of the money spent sending stuff now. And if you want to play economics snob, let's talk about the time value of money with regard to how long it's going to take to pay this pump priming back. I've already agreed that it is the moral thing to do, so why the strawman? You seem to make the case aid is a political litmus test, not a rational exercise. (“Ukraine bros…”. - “…conservative…”, “…everything is perfect and Holy”). No one at all has said anything is “holy” about it, or flawless and certain in the process. Please don’t mischaracterize my or anyone’s arguments so grossly. It’s not expressly a “liberal” or “conservative” issue. In fact, it’s likely the most bi-partisan issue this country has seen since 9/11. Lockmart, Raytheon, etc. can’t “prime the pump” because: a) that’s not at all what “priming the pump” means in economic terms, by definition. They also b) aren’t allowed to conduct their own foreign policy by unilaterally arming who they want, and c) they don’t stockpile meaningful levels of compled systems for emergencies - this is uniquely a government function. It’s not a liberal or conservative issue as you seem to want to make it - those are simply economic and governmental realities. There is no “snobbery” in pointing out - logically, clearly - some basic economic realities when those arguments are brought up. Nor was there any straw man argument used. Calling it “snobbery” just makes an ad hominem argument instead of contributing to the conversation. I think this thread may seem like an echo chamber to some because it tries to stick to reasoned analysis and not chest thumping or shouting. |
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Posted: 12/7/2022 12:11:34 PM EDT
[#25]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By AlmightyTallest: From Prime's link before, the images of the Ukrainian drones that Russia claims attacked the airbases. I'm beginning to wonder if these are the U.S. made longer range Phoenix Ghost drones that were similar to the Switchblades.
https://pbs.twimg.com/media/FjYBwYMWQAEAqL0?format=jpg&name=large https://pbs.twimg.com/media/FjYBwYXX0AERgBx?format=jpg&name=large https://pbs.twimg.com/media/FjYBwYPWQAAO8vX?format=jpg&name=mediumhttps://pbs.twimg.com/media/FjYBwYNXEAA9pwk?format=jpg&name=medium Why would Ukrainian drone have "To Kyiv" written on it's wings in Russian? |
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Posted: 12/7/2022 12:11:43 PM EDT
[#26]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By AlmightyTallest:
Ukraine is going to wind up disarming Iran and North Korea too. |
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Posted: 12/7/2022 12:21:12 PM EDT
[#27]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By Alex9661: Why would Ukrainian drone have "To Kyiv" written on it's wings in Russian? Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By Alex9661: Originally Posted By AlmightyTallest: From Prime's link before, the images of the Ukrainian drones that Russia claims attacked the airbases. I'm beginning to wonder if these are the U.S. made longer range Phoenix Ghost drones that were similar to the Switchblades.
https://pbs.twimg.com/media/FjYBwYMWQAEAqL0?format=jpg&name=large https://pbs.twimg.com/media/FjYBwYXX0AERgBx?format=jpg&name=large https://pbs.twimg.com/media/FjYBwYPWQAAO8vX?format=jpg&name=mediumhttps://pbs.twimg.com/media/FjYBwYNXEAA9pwk?format=jpg&name=medium Why would Ukrainian drone have "To Kyiv" written on it's wings in Russian? lol, right now I have way more questions about these strikes than answers.
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Posted: 12/7/2022 12:22:39 PM EDT
[#28]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By Easterner: Yes that'd a good film to watch. Got dusty watching those kids dying in the streets unarmed. Kyiv has a few monuments to the "Heavenly Hundred". Watching that documentary, American's would have folded like a cheap suit under what the Ukrainians went through. I understood a lot about Ukrainians after watching that. |
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Posted: 12/7/2022 12:28:51 PM EDT
[#29]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By 1Andy2: That's deliberate messaging to Putin that we're going to pressure Ukraine to give up Crimea.  Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By 1Andy2: Originally Posted By lorazepam: Interesting verbage by the SOS
That's deliberate messaging to Putin that we're going to pressure Ukraine to give up Crimea. phase 1- get back to feb 24th borders phase 2- retake pre 2014 borders phase 3 ? |
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Posted: 12/7/2022 12:46:17 PM EDT
[#30]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By stone-age: First drones(or whatever) and now artillery. It sounds like they are on the move again. Good. I'm still really, really, really hoping that before this war is over we get packs of robot dogs charging into russian trenches. Have you ever heard the sound a dog makes when it gets into a fight and it goes beyond fighting, it looses it's freakin' mind and it is going to rip apart everything? That insane roar-scream thing is the sound the robot dogs should make when they jump into the trenches. like the white spikes from The Tomorrow War |
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Posted: 12/7/2022 12:46:19 PM EDT
[#31]
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Posted: 12/7/2022 12:47:00 PM EDT
[#32]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By trapsh00ter99: Between this and your tweets about the multiyear contracts, it's good to be in the MIC right now...weapons sales are a booming. I wouldn't be surprised if the boost in weapons sales pays for what we have allocated to Ukraine. When T$ boosted the military budget it was widely praised here. Now it's happening under FJB and it's "muh MIC and forever wars". When did The Arsenal of Democracy become the Military Industrial Complex? Asking for a comrade er, I mean friend. |
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Posted: 12/7/2022 12:54:06 PM EDT
[#33]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By trapsh00ter99: My wife's city has a picture in the town square park of every one of the "Heavenly Hundred" Watching that documentary, American's would have folded like a cheap suit under what the Ukrainians went through. I understood a lot about Ukrainians after watching that. They have more balls than we do. |
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Posted: 12/7/2022 1:00:37 PM EDT
[#34]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By Eat_Beef: This is the kind of crap that causes people to hate Ukraine bros, and chases reasoned opinions from this thread, making it an echo chamber. This is not a black and white, everything from Ukraine is perfect and Holy situation. There are legitimate issues both within Ukraine and in the support by our .gov. Yet here we are again, with any dissention getting dismissed out of hand. I appreciate and respect your analysis, but you've completely missed the point. If priming the pump is so effective, why aren't lockmart and ratheon doing it themselves, knowing that they will be repaid in spades? What we're doing is priming the pump of private companies with public money. If you think that is conservative, you're part of the problem. It is going to be VERY hard to separate what is actually new sales brought on by this war, and what was going to come through anyway. Second and third order benefits to the economy will largely be offset by the second and third order costs of the money spent sending stuff now. And if you want to play economics snob, let's talk about the time value of money with regard to how long it's going to take to pay this pump priming back. I've already agreed that it is the moral thing to do, so why the strawman? Your bias against the military industrial complex is apparent. The problem is our nation has decided to engage the highest quality products available, allowing a host of industries to compete for contracts. Competition improves everything and everyone. Getting paid for providing any service is the basis of every Western economy. You should be thankful we have the engineering talent and manufacturing capacity and dozens of companies to choose from. When governments run the war production plants, you end up looking like Russia does now. |
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Posted: 12/7/2022 1:01:09 PM EDT
[#35]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By lorazepam: The biggest problem Ukraine has had is getting out from under the boot of russia. Every step they take, russia attacks. They kicked out the pro russian leadership when they fucked them over on the EU trade agreement. The country agreed to align with europe on trade and ideals. Yanukovich was supposed to sign the deal, and went to russia and signed a deal with them instead. The Ukrainians, who appear to have more balls than Americans started protesting in the square in Kyiv. Yanukovich henchmen killed over 100 protesters before he was thrown out. Right after this is when russia invaded crimea and the eastern part Ukraine. We just let it happen, along with europe. Zelensky gets elected much like Trump, an outsider who ran on an anti corruption ticket. The communists were pretty much wiped out in the election, and the next thing you know, russia invades with no pretense of it being separatists. Watch winter on fire. It is a documentary about the Maidan Square protests and shows what the people there are fighting. They deserve our help, we after all talked them into disarming themselves twice. Once with the nukes, and again with small arms under jugears. Winter on fire is on Netflix or Youtube. Worth the time. I watched it online as it happened. Holy shit was it crazy. Winter on Fire was a good documentary and just a memory refresh for me, like you, I watched it happen on the web as it happened. This is why I don’t take anyone serious after they say Victoria Nueland and John McCain led the so called “ coup” that over threw the Russian puppet government. Ukrainians went out to protest in Maidan Square with their bare bodies to face down goons with sniper rifles and tanks. It was amazing and had nothing to do with our feckless state department or congress. If there were ever a people deserving our support, it’s the Ukrainians. Nobody batted an eye when we spent billions and thousands of lives in Iraq and Afghanistan trying to bring democracy to people that shit in their hands but want to cut off funding that amounts to a rounding error in our budget to the UA. |
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Posted: 12/7/2022 1:19:53 PM EDT
[#36]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By AlmightyTallest:
Just watched DW news piece on this. A couple of revelations - it was centered within the AFD party, and attempts were made to contact Russian officials for support of the coup. https://youtu.be/u0g8YWux1mU |
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Posted: 12/7/2022 1:24:49 PM EDT
[#37]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By borderpatrol: Your bias against the military industrial complex is apparent. The problem is our nation has decided to engage the highest quality products available, allowing a host of industries to compete for contracts. Competition improves everything and everyone. Getting paid for providing any service is the basis of every Western economy. You should be thankful we have the engineering talent and manufacturing capacity and dozens of companies to choose from. When governments run the war production plants, you end up looking like Russia does now. That's the irony of the echo chamber comments. It only takes one to make an echo chamber. 100+ people could disagree but it's just a bunch of crap to him, and everyone hates "Ukebros". 
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Posted: 12/7/2022 1:34:47 PM EDT
[#38]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By sq40: My own experience; The only place I hear anti-Ukrainian sentiment is here on Arfcom. Not at work. Not on TV. Not in the community. Not from friends or family. Nowhere in western WV I’ve been. Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By sq40: Originally Posted By Jack67: Originally Posted By AROKIE: True, My honest Opinion though, is that they will not take Crimea before Melitopol. I have a strong feeling, and not just from these latest remarks from the white house but comments over time and also from the growing impatience of the American people and from congress that we (USA) are looking for a peaceful settlement and that "we" would be OK if that only included feb 2022 losses returned… I don’t “hear” that myself. I hear the opposite, really. I imagine this is colored by how and where you listen - not saying my sources are superior at all, or disputing that is your perception. I listen to what I hear friends and family say, look at the general comment/reply ratio on Twitter, also GD here is even an indicator. I haven’t seen pro-Ukraine sentiment really waver and I’ve seen a decrease in anti-Ukraine sentiment as the war goes well (everyone like a winner, they say). I’m quite optimistic, more so than the early days - much more so. The war crimes, attack on civilians, kidnapping of children - it’s all added up. I’ve seen the core pro-Ukraine positions harden and the soft- and anti- ones weaken. Just a data point, not trying to fight about it. My own experience; The only place I hear anti-Ukrainian sentiment is here on Arfcom. Not at work. Not on TV. Not in the community. Not from friends or family. Nowhere in western WV I’ve been. Same here! Not one person. Southern Oklahoma |
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VA, USA
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Posted: 12/7/2022 1:35:28 PM EDT
[#39]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By AlmightyTallest:
They have actual backpacks. |
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OK, USA
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Posted: 12/7/2022 1:36:55 PM EDT
[#40]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By Eat_Beef: Being the world arms dealer would imply we were actually selling arms rather than giving them away. Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By Eat_Beef: Originally Posted By fervid_dryfire: World Arms Dealer != World Police Try to keep up. Being the world arms dealer would imply we were actually selling arms rather than giving them away. Just because we are not, currently, selling them to Ukraine doesn't mean we aren't selling to others elsewhere. |
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Posted: 12/7/2022 1:37:14 PM EDT
[#41]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By Dominion21: However, my bet is the biggest upgrade to any tank in Ukrainian service is: - western tactics and training. In contrast, the Russian tankers have shown idiocy in their tactics, deployment, concealment, and overall use of their tanks. Yes, that. And thermal sights at all stations, if possible. Commander/Gunner/Driver. A loader, if present, doesn't need a thermal sight. |
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Posted: 12/7/2022 1:37:30 PM EDT
[#42]
Partisan activity.
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Posted: 12/7/2022 1:41:48 PM EDT
[#43]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By QUACK32: They have actual backpacks. Lots of cannon fodder, few vehicles. Comments mention they look well regulated, it doesn't matter, well kitted out or not, Human waves break against masses artillery and machine gun fire. It isn't like all of a sudden the Russian Army realized the had 20 divisions of crack infantry that weren't being used. If these guys were particularly good they would have been sent in long ago, and with armor supporting them. |
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Posted: 12/7/2022 1:45:28 PM EDT
[#44]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By Eat_Beef: This is the kind of crap that causes people to hate Ukraine bros, and chases reasoned opinions from this thread, making it an echo chamber. This is not a black and white, everything from Ukraine is perfect and Holy situation. There are legitimate issues both within Ukraine and in the support by our .gov. Yet here we are again, with any dissention getting dismissed out of hand. I appreciate and respect your analysis, but you've completely missed the point. If priming the pump is so effective, why aren't lockmart and ratheon doing it themselves, knowing that they will be repaid in spades? What we're doing is priming the pump of private companies with public money. If you think that is conservative, you're part of the problem. It is going to be VERY hard to separate what is actually new sales brought on by this war, and what was going to come through anyway. Second and third order benefits to the economy will largely be offset by the second and third order costs of the money spent sending stuff now. And if you want to play economics snob, let's talk about the time value of money with regard to how long it's going to take to pay this pump priming back. I've already agreed that it is the moral thing to do, so why the strawman? Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By Eat_Beef: Originally Posted By Jack67: “Priming the pump” in economic terms is NOT conservative or liberal - it’s just economics. Tested and proven. Labeling it one way or the other is a red herring. Even if there’s, oh let’s say 50% break-even on arm sales world-wide vs. donated to Ukraine, it’s still going to be a massive windfall in the long run from: - multiplier effect of activity in the US economy from increased production - increased long-term trade activity from sales (downstream maintenance contracts, etc.) - increased unrelated economic activity from a more secure global trade environment - reinforcement of the USD as the global reserve currency Plus, it’s the correct moral and legal thing to do, so there’s that. If someone complains about the cost to the US, show them our total budget outlays for welfare spending/transfer payments, and then hand them a catalog of a local community college with a decent macroeconomics course. To bottom line it, it starts with this: https://www.ar15.com/media/mediaFiles/556465/DBFAE496-1076-4C4E-9F8C-BF1346859304_jpe-2626306.JPG (Source: visegrad 24 via twitter) This is the kind of crap that causes people to hate Ukraine bros, and chases reasoned opinions from this thread, making it an echo chamber. This is not a black and white, everything from Ukraine is perfect and Holy situation. There are legitimate issues both within Ukraine and in the support by our .gov. Yet here we are again, with any dissention getting dismissed out of hand. I appreciate and respect your analysis, but you've completely missed the point. If priming the pump is so effective, why aren't lockmart and ratheon doing it themselves, knowing that they will be repaid in spades? What we're doing is priming the pump of private companies with public money. If you think that is conservative, you're part of the problem. It is going to be VERY hard to separate what is actually new sales brought on by this war, and what was going to come through anyway. Second and third order benefits to the economy will largely be offset by the second and third order costs of the money spent sending stuff now. And if you want to play economics snob, let's talk about the time value of money with regard to how long it's going to take to pay this pump priming back. I've already agreed that it is the moral thing to do, so why the strawman? No, it isn’t the kind of crap that causes people away from the thread and causes people to hate Ukraine. The people who want to hate Ukraine have already made up their minds, but want to couch it as something else. The most popular and effective form of doing so has become concern trolling in the form “but sending X hurts our strategic position against China!” And the echo chamber isn’t in here - it’s out there in GD with posters parroting either direct Russian propaganda (like Zerohedge) or parroting Fox News parroting Russian propaganda. I was one of those people a few years ago, but woke myself up before this mess hit. The hardest thing anyone can do is admit error. “If priming the pump is so effective, why aren’t lockmart and raytheon doing it themselves?” Because defense contractors invading sovereign countries with private armies is frowned upon? “Second and third order costs of sending stuff now.” Please expand on this. What are these costs and why do you believe they will be incurred? |
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Posted: 12/7/2022 1:49:33 PM EDT
[#45]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By QUACK32: They have actual backpacks. Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By QUACK32: Originally Posted By AlmightyTallest:
They have actual backpacks. It looks like they've got a lot of uniforms and stuff that the cannon fodder guys did not have. |
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Posted: 12/7/2022 1:53:19 PM EDT
[#46]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By Prime: Active shooter incident a few days ago, and I should also say that this is Russian TG- The deserter who opened fire on the police turned out to be a failed "fighter" of PMC "Wagner". They searched for him for about a day and found him in an abandoned farm. According to media reports, Pavel Nikolin was serving time for theft and robbery in the Ufimskaya IK-4. From there, he was recruited into the Wagner PMC. On November 24, Nikolin changed his mind about fighting and fled. P.S. Were there any jokes about detachments already? I think there will be a new series of the series "Merry Sledgehammer" soon!😂 https://t.me/separ_13/5772 Lol that's just one of many coming back. |
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OK, USA
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Posted: 12/7/2022 1:54:28 PM EDT
[#47]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By Mal_means_bad: If Ukraine hits what are technically strategic nuclear targets deep within Russia and Putin doesn't do anything about it except more cannon fodder infantry attacks and continuing previously planned conventional missile barrages against infrastructure that get 85% intercepted - no nukes - does Ukraine "prove" that they can use ATACMS etc on any military target without things going apocalyptic? Does that cause Biden to unclench and supply ATACMS? Were these strikes in part planned as a proof of concept for Ukrainian use of ATACMS and other NATO long range weapons? I think all of the answers are, or could be, "yes" without reservations. In a perfect world, anyway. |
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Posted: 12/7/2022 1:55:09 PM EDT
[#48]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By AlmightyTallest: From Prime's link before, the images of the Ukrainian drones that Russia claims attacked the airbases. I'm beginning to wonder if these are the U.S. made longer range Phoenix Ghost drones that were similar to the Switchblades.
https://pbs.twimg.com/media/FjYBwYMWQAEAqL0?format=jpg&name=large https://pbs.twimg.com/media/FjYBwYXX0AERgBx?format=jpg&name=large https://pbs.twimg.com/media/FjYBwYPWQAAO8vX?format=jpg&name=mediumhttps://pbs.twimg.com/media/FjYBwYNXEAA9pwk?format=jpg&name=medium Sorta looks fake...what's up with the weird face on the warhead? Last pic. |
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Posted: 12/7/2022 1:55:32 PM EDT
[Last Edit: AlmightyTallest]
[#49]
Soledar, claimed now as Russian strikes and a failed Ukrainian advance on Soledar.
https://www.reddit.com/r/CombatFootage/comments/zf7wby/accurate_hit_on_manpower_accumulation_and_armored/?utm_source=share&utm_medium=mweb |
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VA, USA
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Posted: 12/7/2022 1:56:20 PM EDT
[#50]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By AlmightyTallest: Partisan activity.
Lights flash and BOOM 
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