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Posted: 12/7/2022 1:57:03 PM EDT
[#1]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By AlmightyTallest: Partisan activity.
Interesting - all the news reports attribute it to an artillery attack (generic "shelling"). The video seems clearly to be a targeted drone strike. The DPR lied about it initially, but then got caught out by the unexpected video footage? |
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Posted: 12/7/2022 1:57:21 PM EDT
[#2]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By Jack67: You seem to make the case aid is a political litmus test, not a rational exercise. (“Ukraine bros…”. - “…conservative…”, “…everything is perfect and Holy”). No one at all has said anything is “holy” about it, or flawless and certain in the process. Please don’t mischaracterize my or anyone’s arguments so grossly. It’s not expressly a “liberal” or “conservative” issue. In fact, it’s likely the most bi-partisan issue this country has seen since 9/11. Lockmart, Raytheon, etc. can’t “prime the pump” because: a) that’s not at all what “priming the pump” means in economic terms, by definition. They also b) aren’t allowed to conduct their own foreign policy by unilaterally arming who they want, and c) they don’t stockpile meaningful levels of compled systems for emergencies - this is uniquely a government function. It’s not a liberal or conservative issue as you seem to want to make it - those are simply economic and governmental realities. There is no “snobbery” in pointing out - logically, clearly - some basic economic realities when those arguments are brought up. Nor was there any straw man argument used. Calling it “snobbery” just makes an ad hominem argument instead of contributing to the conversation. I think this thread may seem like an echo chamber to some because it tries to stick to reasoned analysis and not chest thumping or shouting. Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By Jack67: Originally Posted By Eat_Beef: This is the kind of crap that causes people to hate Ukraine bros, and chases reasoned opinions from this thread, making it an echo chamber. This is not a black and white, everything from Ukraine is perfect and Holy situation. There are legitimate issues both within Ukraine and in the support by our .gov. Yet here we are again, with any dissention getting dismissed out of hand. I appreciate and respect your analysis, but you've completely missed the point. If priming the pump is so effective, why aren't lockmart and ratheon doing it themselves, knowing that they will be repaid in spades? What we're doing is priming the pump of private companies with public money. If you think that is conservative, you're part of the problem. It is going to be VERY hard to separate what is actually new sales brought on by this war, and what was going to come through anyway. Second and third order benefits to the economy will largely be offset by the second and third order costs of the money spent sending stuff now. And if you want to play economics snob, let's talk about the time value of money with regard to how long it's going to take to pay this pump priming back. I've already agreed that it is the moral thing to do, so why the strawman? You seem to make the case aid is a political litmus test, not a rational exercise. (“Ukraine bros…”. - “…conservative…”, “…everything is perfect and Holy”). No one at all has said anything is “holy” about it, or flawless and certain in the process. Please don’t mischaracterize my or anyone’s arguments so grossly. It’s not expressly a “liberal” or “conservative” issue. In fact, it’s likely the most bi-partisan issue this country has seen since 9/11. Lockmart, Raytheon, etc. can’t “prime the pump” because: a) that’s not at all what “priming the pump” means in economic terms, by definition. They also b) aren’t allowed to conduct their own foreign policy by unilaterally arming who they want, and c) they don’t stockpile meaningful levels of compled systems for emergencies - this is uniquely a government function. It’s not a liberal or conservative issue as you seem to want to make it - those are simply economic and governmental realities. There is no “snobbery” in pointing out - logically, clearly - some basic economic realities when those arguments are brought up. Nor was there any straw man argument used. Calling it “snobbery” just makes an ad hominem argument instead of contributing to the conversation. I think this thread may seem like an echo chamber to some because it tries to stick to reasoned analysis and not chest thumping or shouting. 100 percent! Nailed it on the head. |
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Posted: 12/7/2022 1:57:55 PM EDT
[#3]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By AROKIE: Sorta looks fake...what's up with the weird face on the warhead? Last pic. Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By AROKIE: Originally Posted By AlmightyTallest: From Prime's link before, the images of the Ukrainian drones that Russia claims attacked the airbases. I'm beginning to wonder if these are the U.S. made longer range Phoenix Ghost drones that were similar to the Switchblades.
https://pbs.twimg.com/media/FjYBwYMWQAEAqL0?format=jpg&name=large https://pbs.twimg.com/media/FjYBwYXX0AERgBx?format=jpg&name=large https://pbs.twimg.com/media/FjYBwYPWQAAO8vX?format=jpg&name=mediumhttps://pbs.twimg.com/media/FjYBwYNXEAA9pwk?format=jpg&name=medium Sorta looks fake...what's up with the weird face on the warhead? Last pic. That is what is interesting, they blotted out the sensors on this drone, where they never did so when Russian forces had actual Ukrainian or American hardware. |
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Posted: 12/7/2022 2:00:43 PM EDT
[#4]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By AlmightyTallest: Partisan activity.
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Posted: 12/7/2022 2:04:56 PM EDT
[#5]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By QUACK32: Lights flash and BOOM  Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By QUACK32: Originally Posted By AlmightyTallest: Partisan activity.
Lights flash and BOOM That was a drone hit |
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Posted: 12/7/2022 2:05:54 PM EDT
[#6]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By QUACK32: They have actual backpacks. Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By QUACK32: Originally Posted By AlmightyTallest:
They have actual backpacks. To me they look a lot more like soldiers as opposed to the mobs we've been seeing. |
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Posted: 12/7/2022 2:08:58 PM EDT
[#7]
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Posted: 12/7/2022 2:12:57 PM EDT
[#8]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By 4xGM300m: Everytime the Gov. want to cover up some news story it is an outlaw motorcycle gang, an islamist terrorist group, a domestic terrorist group or big family clans associated with the organized crime they raid within two or three days. Now nobody speaks about the murdered girl anymore. The German Gov. is maintaining a stock of this groups to raid when needed. Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By 4xGM300m: Originally Posted By AlmightyTallest: Originally Posted By 4xGM300m: Originally Posted By AlmightyTallest:
 Total BS, extremly exaggerated. A few days ago a 14 year old girl got murdered by a refugee from Africa. Everytime shit like this happens and wont go away after 2 days, the police in Germany raids a domestic terrorist group. The last time it was a 71 year old woman with a pellet gun and some drunk morons. It certainly seemed alarming, but your input puts it in perspective then.  Everytime the Gov. want to cover up some news story it is an outlaw motorcycle gang, an islamist terrorist group, a domestic terrorist group or big family clans associated with the organized crime they raid within two or three days. Now nobody speaks about the murdered girl anymore. The German Gov. is maintaining a stock of this groups to raid when needed. So what are they covering for this time? |
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Posted: 12/7/2022 2:14:25 PM EDT
[#9]
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Posted: 12/7/2022 2:14:31 PM EDT
[Last Edit: Chaingun]
[#10]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By AROKIE: Sorta looks fake...what's up with the weird face on the warhead? Last pic. Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By AROKIE: Originally Posted By AlmightyTallest: From Prime's link before, the images of the Ukrainian drones that Russia claims attacked the airbases. I'm beginning to wonder if these are the U.S. made longer range Phoenix Ghost drones that were similar to the Switchblades.
https://pbs.twimg.com/media/FjYBwYMWQAEAqL0?format=jpg&name=large https://pbs.twimg.com/media/FjYBwYXX0AERgBx?format=jpg&name=large https://pbs.twimg.com/media/FjYBwYPWQAAO8vX?format=jpg&name=mediumhttps://pbs.twimg.com/media/FjYBwYNXEAA9pwk?format=jpg&name=medium Sorta looks fake...what's up with the weird face on the warhead? Last pic. |
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Posted: 12/7/2022 2:15:12 PM EDT
[#11]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By Eat_Beef: This is the kind of crap that causes people to hate Ukraine bros, and chases reasoned opinions from this thread, making it an echo chamber. This is not a black and white, everything from Ukraine is perfect and Holy situation. There are legitimate issues both within Ukraine and in the support by our .gov. Yet here we are again, with any dissention getting dismissed out of hand. I appreciate and respect your analysis, but you've completely missed the point. If priming the pump is so effective, why aren't lockmart and ratheon doing it themselves, knowing that they will be repaid in spades? What we're doing is priming the pump of private companies with public money. If you think that is conservative, you're part of the problem. It is going to be VERY hard to separate what is actually new sales brought on by this war, and what was going to come through anyway. Second and third order benefits to the economy will largely be offset by the second and third order costs of the money spent sending stuff now. And if you want to play economics snob, let's talk about the time value of money with regard to how long it's going to take to pay this pump priming back. I've already agreed that it is the moral thing to do, so why the strawman? ITAR won't let civilians send over the counter products over seas, you think they'll let lockmart sell Jassmer and Atacms to whomever? ROTFL |
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Posted: 12/7/2022 2:17:04 PM EDT
[#12]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By Eat_Beef: What we're doing is priming the pump of private companies with public money. If you think that is conservative, you're part of the problem. Is this priming of the pump with public money better or worse than flushing it down the shitter on social programs and vote-buying schemes? Relative value, relative evil, is all relative. It's not whether the public money is wasted - only to what degree the ways in which it is wasted by our quisling elected officials is better or worse for the health of the republic. You don't get perfect outcomes, you don't get to decide "pure" ways in which the public money is wasted. You just get to support or deride the various ways in which the waste occurs. |
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NE, USA
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Posted: 12/7/2022 2:17:32 PM EDT
[#13]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By AlmightyTallest: From Prime's link before, the images of the Ukrainian drones that Russia claims attacked the airbases. I'm beginning to wonder if these are the U.S. made longer range Phoenix Ghost drones that were similar to the Switchblades.
https://pbs.twimg.com/media/FjYBwYMWQAEAqL0?format=jpg&name=large https://pbs.twimg.com/media/FjYBwYXX0AERgBx?format=jpg&name=large https://pbs.twimg.com/media/FjYBwYPWQAAO8vX?format=jpg&name=mediumhttps://pbs.twimg.com/media/FjYBwYNXEAA9pwk?format=jpg&name=medium This can't be it. In the video of the attack posted on YouTube, you can clearly hear the sound of a turbine engine as it screams overhead. These are small drones with a small, prop driven motor. |
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Posted: 12/7/2022 2:17:45 PM EDT
[#14]
 Satellite Image of Damaged Tu-95 Bear at Engels Air Base |
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Posted: 12/7/2022 2:19:17 PM EDT
[#15]
Video
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Posted: 12/7/2022 2:21:00 PM EDT
[#16]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By fervid_dryfire: I think all of the answers are, or could be, "yes" without reservations. In a perfect world, anyway. Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By fervid_dryfire: Originally Posted By Mal_means_bad: If Ukraine hits what are technically strategic nuclear targets deep within Russia and Putin doesn't do anything about it except more cannon fodder infantry attacks and continuing previously planned conventional missile barrages against infrastructure that get 85% intercepted - no nukes - does Ukraine "prove" that they can use ATACMS etc on any military target without things going apocalyptic? Does that cause Biden to unclench and supply ATACMS? Were these strikes in part planned as a proof of concept for Ukrainian use of ATACMS and other NATO long range weapons? I think all of the answers are, or could be, "yes" without reservations. In a perfect world, anyway. |
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Posted: 12/7/2022 2:23:15 PM EDT
[#17]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By kpacman: This can't be it. In the video of the attack posted on YouTube, you can clearly hear the sound of a turbine engine as it screams overhead. These are small drones with a small, prop driven motor. Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By kpacman: Originally Posted By AlmightyTallest: From Prime's link before, the images of the Ukrainian drones that Russia claims attacked the airbases. I'm beginning to wonder if these are the U.S. made longer range Phoenix Ghost drones that were similar to the Switchblades.
https://pbs.twimg.com/media/FjYBwYMWQAEAqL0?format=jpg&name=large https://pbs.twimg.com/media/FjYBwYXX0AERgBx?format=jpg&name=large https://pbs.twimg.com/media/FjYBwYPWQAAO8vX?format=jpg&name=mediumhttps://pbs.twimg.com/media/FjYBwYNXEAA9pwk?format=jpg&name=medium This can't be it. In the video of the attack posted on YouTube, you can clearly hear the sound of a turbine engine as it screams overhead. These are small drones with a small, prop driven motor. To be clear, people have made the assumption that the turbine passing overhead and the explosive object that struck the airfield were the same object. We do not have that proof from the video. |
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Posted: 12/7/2022 2:25:53 PM EDT
[#18]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By Capta: To be clear, people have made the assumption that the turbine passing overhead and the explosive object that struck the airfield were the same object. We do not have that proof from the video. The conclusion is logical, but it is not necessarily proven. There is a high degree of correlation which must, at least, be explained away before presuming the turbojet noise was unrelated, somehow. Proof is a standard which must meet the test of credulity. |
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Posted: 12/7/2022 2:26:08 PM EDT
[#19]
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Posted: 12/7/2022 2:29:51 PM EDT
[#20]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By Prime:
Video
https://pbs.twimg.com/media/FjZO8RnXwBMyp12?format=jpg&name=large https://pbs.twimg.com/media/FjZO96YXEAAgRHx?format=jpg&name=large If I'm remembering correctly that system was the base the USMC used for their EFSS mortar concept. https://www.thedrive.com/the-war-zone/19232/marine-corps-is-finished-with-its-long-troubled-lightweight-120mm-mortar-systems |
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Posted: 12/7/2022 2:39:40 PM EDT
[Last Edit: Eat_Beef]
[#21]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By Jack67: You seem to make the case aid is a political litmus test, not a rational exercise. (“Ukraine bros…”. - “…conservative…”, “…everything is perfect and Holy”). No one at all has said anything is “holy” about it, or flawless and certain in the process. Please don’t mischaracterize my or anyone’s arguments so grossly. It’s not expressly a “liberal” or “conservative” issue. In fact, it’s likely the most bi-partisan issue this country has seen since 9/11. Lockmart, Raytheon, etc. can’t “prime the pump” because: a) that’s not at all what “priming the pump” means in economic terms, by definition. They also b) aren’t allowed to conduct their own foreign policy by unilaterally arming who they want, and c) they don’t stockpile meaningful levels of compled systems for emergencies - this is uniquely a government function. It’s not a liberal or conservative issue as you seem to want to make it - those are simply economic and governmental realities. There is no “snobbery” in pointing out - logically, clearly - some basic economic realities when those arguments are brought up. Nor was there any straw man argument used. Calling it “snobbery” just makes an ad hominem argument instead of contributing to the conversation. I think this thread may seem like an echo chamber to some because it tries to stick to reasoned analysis and not chest thumping or shouting. If your 'go to community college and take an econ class' wasn't economic snobbery, I'm sorry, but that's what it sounds like. You're going through a lot of gymnastics to overlook the fact that the public is paying the price, and the main ROI will be to private outfits. Maybe I've just missed all the headlines about the defense industry offering free weapons to Ukraine, and State turning them down. Again, this is exactly the problem here. Rather than admitting that it sucks to pay for this in taxes and inflation, you try to make it seem like it is a good thing economically. It is not. You can try to make up theoretical situations where it MIGHT pay for itself, but those are longshots, and we all know it. There are MANY things in life that are the right thing to do, but the actual doing of them is costly. I've not found that lying to myself about that fact makes them less costly. Edit to add: I'm not sure where you're getting the political litmus test thing. That's not my intent at all. |
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Posted: 12/7/2022 2:47:09 PM EDT
[#22]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By stone-age: It looks like they've got a lot of uniforms and stuff that the cannon fodder guys did not have. Maybe related to recent orc practice of seizing/redirecting donated items and funds to the .gov for reappropriating (and taxing)? |
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Posted: 12/7/2022 2:49:32 PM EDT
[#23]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By Capta: “If priming the pump is so effective, why aren’t lockmart and raytheon doing it themselves?” Because defense contractors invading sovereign countries with private armies is frowned upon? Do you really think that's what we are talking about, or is this just trying to make a cheap shot? “Second and third order costs of sending stuff now.” Please expand on this. What are these costs and why do you believe they will be incurred? Inflation would be the first and most obvious, but it doesn't take much imagination to come up with all kinds of potential issues. For some reason, folks in this thread are only able to use their imagination to come up with reasons why it won't cost anything, and we're all going to end up rich because of this war. |
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USA
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Posted: 12/7/2022 2:50:12 PM EDT
[#24]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By Capta: So what are they covering for this time? Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By Capta: Originally Posted By 4xGM300m: Originally Posted By AlmightyTallest: Originally Posted By 4xGM300m: Originally Posted By AlmightyTallest:
Total BS, extremly exaggerated. A few days ago a 14 year old girl got murdered by a refugee from Africa. Everytime shit like this happens and wont go away after 2 days, the police in Germany raids a domestic terrorist group. The last time it was a 71 year old woman with a pellet gun and some drunk morons. It certainly seemed alarming, but your input puts it in perspective then. Everytime the Gov. want to cover up some news story it is an outlaw motorcycle gang, an islamist terrorist group, a domestic terrorist group or big family clans associated with the organized crime they raid within two or three days. Now nobody speaks about the murdered girl anymore. The German Gov. is maintaining a stock of this groups to raid when needed. So what are they covering for this time? Like I said before, murder of a 14 yo. girl. https://www.thesun.co.uk/news/20653778/german-knife-attack-school-girls-morning/ It's gone from the German media. Everyone is talking about the terrorist group. |
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Posted: 12/7/2022 2:50:53 PM EDT
[#25]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By Jack67: Interesting - all the news reports attribute it to an artillery attack (generic "shelling"). The video seems clearly to be a targeted drone strike. The DPR lied about it initially, but then got caught out by the unexpected video footage? Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By Jack67: Originally Posted By AlmightyTallest: Partisan activity.
Interesting - all the news reports attribute it to an artillery attack (generic "shelling"). The video seems clearly to be a targeted drone strike. The DPR lied about it initially, but then got caught out by the unexpected video footage? |
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Posted: 12/7/2022 2:53:08 PM EDT
[Last Edit: Easterner]
[#26]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By Eat_Beef: Inflation would be the first and most obvious, but it doesn't take much imagination to come up with all kinds of potential issues. For some reason, folks in this thread are only able to use their imagination to come up with reasons why it won't cost anything, and we're all going to end up rich because of this war. Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By Eat_Beef: Originally Posted By Capta: “If priming the pump is so effective, why aren’t lockmart and raytheon doing it themselves?” Because defense contractors invading sovereign countries with private armies is frowned upon? Do you really think that's what we are talking about, or is this just trying to make a cheap shot? “Second and third order costs of sending stuff now.” Please expand on this. What are these costs and why do you believe they will be incurred? Inflation would be the first and most obvious, but it doesn't take much imagination to come up with all kinds of potential issues. For some reason, folks in this thread are only able to use their imagination to come up with reasons why it won't cost anything, and we're all going to end up rich because of this war. Quote who said it won't cost anything. Many did say there are benefits besides the moral side of stepping up.  |
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Posted: 12/7/2022 2:56:42 PM EDT
[#27]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By AlmightyTallest: Soledar, claimed now as Russian strikes and a failed Ukrainian advance on Soledar. https://www.reddit.com/r/CombatFootage/comments/zf7wby/accurate_hit_on_manpower_accumulation_and_armored/?utm_source=share&utm_medium=mweb Was looking for secondary source after I heard that |
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Posted: 12/7/2022 2:58:02 PM EDT
[#28]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By AlmightyTallest:
https://pbs.twimg.com/media/FjYGATeUoAEEVZj?format=jpg&name=900x900 https://pbs.twimg.com/media/FjYGJjKVIAA7IBx?format=png&name=small https://www.airandspaceforces.com/laplante-congress-will-support-multiyear-weapons-munitions-procurements/
https://www.politico.com/amp/news/2022/12/06/nato-has-billions-that-may-be-sent-to-ukraine-00072591 |
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Posted: 12/7/2022 3:00:07 PM EDT
[#29]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By Easterner: Quote who said it won't cost anything. Many did say there are benefits besides the moral side of stepping up. I already did, in my first post about it on page 3129. Since then many have come in saying it will end up paying back more than it costs. Here is the original comment: Worth giving them away to demonstrate real world battlefield effectiveness to potential buyers. To say nothing of the lessons being gained for our own use. Again, you've all proven my point about this echo chamber, anyone who doesn't agree that everything is great is mobbed, without regard to what is true or logical. Go ahead, flame me, I'm going back to lurking, and you all can go back to slapping one another on the back and pretending there aren't costs associated with our support of Ukraine. |
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Posted: 12/7/2022 3:01:13 PM EDT
[#30]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By QUACK32: They have actual backpacks. Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By QUACK32: Originally Posted By AlmightyTallest:
They have actual backpacks. That's a lot of men marching towards possible death for what? What a waste. Looks cold. We are at 27° F with snow, sleet, and rain in the forecast for the next week. |
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Posted: 12/7/2022 3:01:39 PM EDT
[Last Edit: AlmightyTallest]
[#31]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By CarmelBytheSea: Was looking for secondary source after I heard that Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By CarmelBytheSea: Originally Posted By AlmightyTallest: Soledar, claimed now as Russian strikes and a failed Ukrainian advance on Soledar. https://www.reddit.com/r/CombatFootage/comments/zf7wby/accurate_hit_on_manpower_accumulation_and_armored/?utm_source=share&utm_medium=mweb Was looking for secondary source after I heard that Me too, they claimed this has been reposted 6 times this week on Reddit, but I'm looking for more info or geolocation to see if these are Ukrainian forces or from an earlier timeframe. Edit: found full video from pro Russian source here: https://www.reddit.com/r/CombatFootage/comments/zawqd0/video_footage_of_failed_ukrainian_attack_near/?utm_source=share&utm_medium=mweb Geolocated to Bakhmutske - first part: 48.66090, 38.09415 - second part: 48.65612, 38.09884 Just so you understand what this blogger claims happened in this video: Ukraine lost 9 tanks, 10 BMPs and 900 ukrainian casualties. Yes. |
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Posted: 12/7/2022 3:05:59 PM EDT
[#32]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By Eat_Beef: I already did, in my first post about it on page 3129. Since then many have come in saying it will end up paying back more than it costs. Here is the original comment: Worth giving them away to demonstrate real world battlefield effectiveness to potential buyers. To say nothing of the lessons being gained for our own use. Again, you've all proven my point about this echo chamber, anyone who doesn't agree that everything is great is mobbed, without regard to what is true or logical. Go ahead, flame me, I'm going back to lurking, and you all can go back to slapping one another on the back and pretending there aren't costs associated with our support of Ukraine. I’m still scratching my head for who said “it will pay a profit.” You make a lot of claims on what people say, but can’t back them up. People have stated the costs are not “clear cut” and then you twist that into saying there’s a pipe-dream of profit. You keep putting words into peoples arguments, that aren’t there. It’s very unnecessary trolling and baiting. |
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Posted: 12/7/2022 3:08:11 PM EDT
[#33]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By Saltwater-Hillbilly: Poland inherited the "Prussian Dilemma", as the terrain they possess is not forgiving of strategic errors. It looks like the Poles are adopting the Prussian solution, which is to have a "counteroffensive" army that can both stop an invader AND launch a massive counterattack to ensure than, while the initial battles may be fought on Polish territory, the culminating battles will be on the invader's territory. As long as the Poles can avoid two-front wars (such as the German WWI experience or the 1939 Poland) experience, they probably have both the means and the motivation to effectively execute this strategy. Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By Saltwater-Hillbilly: Originally Posted By Circuits: Originally Posted By 4xGM300m: Today: Korea has indeed started deliveries. Whether for show or for dough remains to be seen, but Poland ordering over 1200 MBTs from western-aligned powers, along with 220 HIMARS, and F-35s means they're serious. Dead. Fucking. Serious. Let's see Russians, or anyone, make a Polack joke in the late 2020s. Maybe I need to buy some Polish vodka and find me a Polish gal to make babies with. Poland inherited the "Prussian Dilemma", as the terrain they possess is not forgiving of strategic errors. It looks like the Poles are adopting the Prussian solution, which is to have a "counteroffensive" army that can both stop an invader AND launch a massive counterattack to ensure than, while the initial battles may be fought on Polish territory, the culminating battles will be on the invader's territory. As long as the Poles can avoid two-front wars (such as the German WWI experience or the 1939 Poland) experience, they probably have both the means and the motivation to effectively execute this strategy. The most important question, in my mind, is what will the winged hussars get, Black Panthers or Abrams? It is my understanding they are stationed in western Poland. I'm pulling for the Abrams!  |
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USA
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Posted: 12/7/2022 3:11:27 PM EDT
[#34]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By trapsh00ter99: Between this and your tweets about the multiyear contracts, it's good to be in the MIC right now...weapons sales are a booming. I wouldn't be surprised if the boost in weapons sales pays for what we have allocated to Ukraine. When T$ boosted the military budget it was widely praised here. Now it's happening under FJB and it's "muh MIC and forever wars".  The big one nearby is recruiting me hard. I applied there and missed out on one position, yet they called the other day to say they are expanding the dept yet again. They are known for boom and bust cycles as far as head count goes, but they have made a couple changes very recently that have them expanding their production footprint for the long term. |
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Posted: 12/7/2022 3:13:22 PM EDT
[#35]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By BigGrumpyBear: The most important question, in my mind, is what will the winged hussars get, Black Panthers or Abrams? It is my understanding they are stationed in western Poland. I'm pulling for the Abrams! My uncle and his wife live fairly close to one of their garrisons. |
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Posted: 12/7/2022 3:19:49 PM EDT
[#36]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By Eat_Beef: I already did, in my first post about it on page 3129. Since then many have come in saying it will end up paying back more than it costs. Here is the original comment: Worth giving them away to demonstrate real world battlefield effectiveness to potential buyers. To say nothing of the lessons being gained for our own use. Again, you've all proven my point about this echo chamber, anyone who doesn't agree that everything is great is mobbed, without regard to what is true or logical. Go ahead, flame me, I'm going back to lurking, and you all can go back to slapping one another on the back and pretending there aren't costs associated with our support of Ukraine. Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By Eat_Beef: Originally Posted By Easterner: Quote who said it won't cost anything. Many did say there are benefits besides the moral side of stepping up. I already did, in my first post about it on page 3129. Since then many have come in saying it will end up paying back more than it costs. Here is the original comment: Worth giving them away to demonstrate real world battlefield effectiveness to potential buyers. To say nothing of the lessons being gained for our own use. Again, you've all proven my point about this echo chamber, anyone who doesn't agree that everything is great is mobbed, without regard to what is true or logical. Go ahead, flame me, I'm going back to lurking, and you all can go back to slapping one another on the back and pretending there aren't costs associated with our support of Ukraine. I'm sorry we are having so much fun here without you. Can you have a discussion without the jabs? I come here for information on what is happening. Many here provide valuable Intel on current events, explain how systems work, etc Many make their points to benefits and are ridiculed by you for not agreeing with you. Personally I would prefer to just block you for the eChO cHaMbEr experience you keep bringing up, but can't. So lurk as you say, and I'll just stop responding to you Trump warned NATO to step up. They didn't. Now that the shit is hitting the fan they are starting to wake up. I believe I posted ~39% of 200+ billion in equipment contracts went to US companies because of this conflict. There are many upsides, and yes it costs the US money. Go start a thread on social programs for people sitting on their couch doing jack shit with their able bodied non working asses and I'll be patting you on the back. There are much more expensive programs that should be receiving all of the outrage. Sorry we disagree, but that's just how it is. |
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Posted: 12/7/2022 3:29:23 PM EDT
[#38]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By Eat_Beef: Inflation would be the first and most obvious, but it doesn't take much imagination to come up with all kinds of potential issues. For some reason, folks in this thread are only able to use their imagination to come up with reasons why it won't cost anything, and we're all going to end up rich because of this war. Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By Eat_Beef: Originally Posted By Capta: “If priming the pump is so effective, why aren’t lockmart and raytheon doing it themselves?” Because defense contractors invading sovereign countries with private armies is frowned upon? Do you really think that's what we are talking about, or is this just trying to make a cheap shot? “Second and third order costs of sending stuff now.” Please expand on this. What are these costs and why do you believe they will be incurred? Inflation would be the first and most obvious, but it doesn't take much imagination to come up with all kinds of potential issues. For some reason, folks in this thread are only able to use their imagination to come up with reasons why it won't cost anything, and we're all going to end up rich because of this war. That sounds exactly like what you are suggesting. If you meant something else please specify, So we are suffering inflation in the US because of fifty billion spent on Ukraine but not because of the two trillion spent on entitlements? Got it. |
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Posted: 12/7/2022 3:30:31 PM EDT
[#39]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By Eat_Beef: I already did, in my first post about it on page 3129. Since then many have come in saying it will end up paying back more than it costs. Here is the original comment: Worth giving them away to demonstrate real world battlefield effectiveness to potential buyers. To say nothing of the lessons being gained for our own use. Again, you've all proven my point about this echo chamber, anyone who doesn't agree that everything is great is mobbed, without regard to what is true or logical. Go ahead, flame me, I'm going back to lurking, and you all can go back to slapping one another on the back and pretending there aren't costs associated with our support of Ukraine. @Eat_Beef. Answer my fucking questions. Do you expect purity? Show me anywhere in the political process there is purity. You have not provided a countervailing instance where anyone in the real world meets your supposed standards, but you presume to judge this thread based on those same, unproven, lily-white standards? The outcome is more important than the intentions or the process. |
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Posted: 12/7/2022 3:33:39 PM EDT
[#40]
"Putin says threat of nuclear war is increasing"
"Putin says he still views nuclear weapons as a deterrent measure. "We have not gone crazy. We are aware of what nuclear weapons are. We have these means, they are in a more advanced and modern form than those of any other nuclear country, this is obvious,"." https://edition.cnn.com/europe/live-news/russia-ukraine-war-news-12-07-22/index.html |
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Posted: 12/7/2022 3:41:01 PM EDT
[Last Edit: Easterner]
[#41]
 Attached File"16 people died in a terrible road accident on the highway between occupied Shakhtarsk and Torez in Donetsk region A truck with explosives literally crushed a minibus with civilians, journalist Denys Kazanskyi reports." |
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Posted: 12/7/2022 3:43:37 PM EDT
[#42]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By Eat_Beef: Inflation would be the first and most obvious, but it doesn't take much imagination to come up with all kinds of potential issues. For some reason, folks in this thread are only able to use their imagination to come up with reasons why it won't cost anything, and we're all going to end up rich because of this war. Just after the start of this war, I asked my financial advisor if investing in Defense companies would be a good play. He said no, at least not yet. That was around March. We are just now seeing replacement orders by the Defense Dept. My understanding is the stuff we've given Ukraine is mostly older and potentially obsolete (but still functional) stocks. |
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Posted: 12/7/2022 3:47:04 PM EDT
[#43]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By Easterner: "Putin says threat of nuclear war is increasing" "Putin says he still views nuclear weapons as a deterrent measure. "We have not gone crazy. We are aware of what nuclear weapons are. We have these means, they are in a more advanced and modern form than those of any other nuclear country, this is obvious,"." https://edition.cnn.com/europe/live-news/russia-ukraine-war-news-12-07-22/index.html Damn, that dude believes his own propaganda |
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Posted: 12/7/2022 3:47:16 PM EDT
[#44]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By TV175: The large transfer flotilla off the west coast of Portugal is unsustainable. They are literally pumping oil from small bulk carriers to large bulk carriers in the open sea and then making the journey to India or China. They never caught the frogmen who blew up the Russian’s pipeline; it would be a shame if they blew up that flotilla next. (j/k. We all know the Russians sabotaged their own line once they realized Europe is never buying their petroleum again. |
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Posted: 12/7/2022 3:47:52 PM EDT
[#45]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By AlmightyTallest:
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Posted: 12/7/2022 3:48:43 PM EDT
[#46]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By Eat_Beef: Inflation would be the first and most obvious, .... Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By Eat_Beef: Originally Posted By Capta: “If priming the pump is so effective, why aren’t lockmart and raytheon doing it themselves?” Because defense contractors invading sovereign countries with private armies is frowned upon? Do you really think that's what we are talking about, or is this just trying to make a cheap shot? “Second and third order costs of sending stuff now.” Please expand on this. What are these costs and why do you believe they will be incurred? Inflation would be the first and most obvious, .... The inflation we are experiencing now has pretty much NOTHING to do with the expenditures of sending weapons/money to Ukraine. It is a TINY drop in the bucket compared to our own military spending and budgets. It would not contribute to inflation in any meaningful way. The inflation we are seeing is because of DECADES of government spending, quantitative easing, deliberately keeping cheap money available via low fed interest rates, etc. It is a long-term effect of a lot of systemic macro-economic factors. Ukraine has nothing to do with it. |
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Posted: 12/7/2022 3:58:17 PM EDT
[#47]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By DK-Prof: The inflation we are experiencing now has pretty much NOTHING to do with the expenditures of sending weapons/money to Ukraine. It is a TINY drop in the bucket compared to our own military spending and budgets. It would not contribute to inflation in any meaningful way. The inflation we are seeing is because of DECADES of government spending, quantitative easing, deliberately keeping cheap money available via low fed interest rates, etc. It is a long-term effect of a lot of systemic macro-economic factors. Ukraine has nothing to do with it. |
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Posted: 12/7/2022 4:01:40 PM EDT
[Last Edit: Jack67]
[#48]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By jough43: Just after the start of this war, I asked my financial advisor if investing in Defense companies would be a good play. He said no, at least not yet. That was around March. We are just now seeing replacement orders by the Defense Dept. My understanding is the stuff we've given Ukraine is mostly older and potentially obsolete (but still functional) stocks. Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By jough43: Just after the start of this war, I asked my financial advisor if investing in Defense companies would be a good play. He said no, at least not yet. That was around March. We are just now seeing replacement orders by the Defense Dept. My understanding is the stuff we've given Ukraine is mostly older and potentially obsolete (but still functional) stocks. I wish I had a better handle on this; we don’t really know hard numbers. For example: - Most of the top-line donation number (“$40 billion…”) is coming out of inventory, so that’s $0 in new spending. - Some of it will be replaced, but we don’t know how much at all, and are only now seeing firm replacement orders in size. - Some of it is in fact cash transfers (small % I think) - Some of the donations were slated for destruction or lt storage, so there is net savings. - How are transport costs being accounted for? Some comes from operating budgets of units, but not all. We really don’t know at all what $40 billion in aid REALLY costs. Given the magnitude of the crisis and the net value for the $ - I don’t care that much, either. Originally Posted By trapsh00ter99: I've done the math. Of the debt spending since covid started and inflation took off, Ukraine is roughly 1% of that amount, yet it gets 99% of the blame from F Ukraine crew for inflation. Is it actually even that high? I would have guessed less. |
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Posted: 12/7/2022 4:01:54 PM EDT
[#49]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By ricko1: Seems like the Russians better be pulling all their air defenses back to protect the motherland  Attached File |
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Posted: 12/7/2022 4:05:07 PM EDT
[Last Edit: ricko1]
[#50]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By UKjohn: looked like the one on the left clacked a vest off |
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