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Posted: 12/7/2022 4:10:55 PM EDT
[#1]
would appreciate the member's donation link to be posted again
thnx |
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Posted: 12/7/2022 4:12:05 PM EDT
[#2]
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Posted: 12/7/2022 4:13:56 PM EDT
[#3]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By AlmightyTallest:
She sure lets him have it. "you buy vodka, not food?" |
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Posted: 12/7/2022 4:22:43 PM EDT
[#4]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By Mickdog13: The big one nearby is recruiting me hard. I applied there and missed out on one position, yet they called the other day to say they are expanding the dept yet again. They are known for boom and bust cycles as far as head count goes, but they have made a couple changes very recently that have them expanding their production footprint for the long term. that's the third one in the last two months. Maybe with this years bonus I will have that new boat come summertime 
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Posted: 12/7/2022 4:31:38 PM EDT
[#5]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By Eat_Beef: I already did, in my first post about it on page 3129. Since then many have come in saying it will end up paying back more than it costs. Here is the original comment: Worth giving them away to demonstrate real world battlefield effectiveness to potential buyers. To say nothing of the lessons being gained for our own use. Again, you've all proven my point about this echo chamber, anyone who doesn't agree that everything is great is mobbed, without regard to what is true or logical. Go ahead, flame me, I'm going back to lurking, and you all can go back to slapping one another on the back and pretending there aren't costs associated with our support of Ukraine. Are you so blind you cannot see that by sending arms to Ukraine we will payed back many fold by then being able to sell arms to other countries? Can you not see that by our defense contractors selling arms to other countries (and the examples are already rolling in) that this will provide jobs for thousand of Americans and stimulate our economy? It will wind up benefiting everyday Americans. Can you not see that the defeat of Russia on the world stage is truly the defeat of an evil empire that will benefit just about everyone in the free world? Not just America, but the rest too? Can you not see that we are getting this benefit for PEANUTS? Yes we have spent NEXT TO NOTHING so far in the endeavor and already are reaping the rewards. Are you truly that blind? So blinded by partisan bullshit you cannot see past your nose? You speak of echo chambers, when you cannot even hold a hard though for yourself, but echo some crap from some idiot talking points you have heard somewhere. If there are costs in supporting Ukraine, they will be paid back to us and the rest of the world many times over. In case you haven't noticed then I will point it out to you, that we are busy helping defeat an enemy of ours that has been an enemy for around 100 years, and we are doing it on the cheap. The Ukrainians are the ones that are bravely dying every day for the freedom of the rest of the world to rid the world of the evil empire, or what is left of it. And you begrudge us even supplying the arms to do it. I truly have a hard time understanding you and others that are as blind as you. And I mean that sincerely. |
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Posted: 12/7/2022 4:32:30 PM EDT
[#6]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By ricko1: Watching closely.... the one on the right looks to turn and start running towards the car than stops like she sees something, the one on the left then gives her a push towards the car and then BOOM! I'm leaning one on the left set off an IED by the car and the boom was bigger than she thought it was going to be. Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By ricko1: Originally Posted By UKjohn: looked like the one on the left clacked a vest off |
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Posted: 12/7/2022 4:33:28 PM EDT
[#7]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By ricko1: Watching closely.... the one on the right looks to turn and start running towards the car than stops like she sees something, the one on the left then gives her a push towards the car and then BOOM! I'm leaning one on the left set off an IED by the car and the boom was bigger than she thought it was going to be. There's some weird stuff going on at around the 12 second mark of that video. The two are walking towards the front of the car, and as she passes the plywood door (?) the one behind does something and there is an odd "wave" of the plywood door towards the right side/top. I can't tell what it is but if you roll it back and forth right around those frames the plywood almost appears to move or flex. Just after that there is the flash, and it looks like Natasha goes ass over tit forward, blyating onto the pavement forward and left of the car with her clothes blown off. No indication of Boris' earthly remains noticeable. |
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Posted: 12/7/2022 4:40:28 PM EDT
[#8]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By m24shooter: There's some weird stuff going on at around the 12 second mark of that video. The two are walking towards the front of the car, and as she passes the plywood door (?) the one behind does something and there is an odd "wave" of the plywood door towards the right side/top. I can't tell what it is but if you roll it back and forth right around those frames the plywood almost appears to move or flex. Just after that there is the flash, and it looks like Natasha goes ass over tit forward, blyating onto the pavement forward and left of the car with her clothes blown off. No indication of Boris' earthly remains noticeable. Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By m24shooter: Originally Posted By ricko1: Watching closely.... the one on the right looks to turn and start running towards the car than stops like she sees something, the one on the left then gives her a push towards the car and then BOOM! I'm leaning one on the left set off an IED by the car and the boom was bigger than she thought it was going to be. There's some weird stuff going on at around the 12 second mark of that video. The two are walking towards the front of the car, and as she passes the plywood door (?) the one behind does something and there is an odd "wave" of the plywood door towards the right side/top. I can't tell what it is but if you roll it back and forth right around those frames the plywood almost appears to move or flex. Just after that there is the flash, and it looks like Natasha goes ass over tit forward, blyating onto the pavement forward and left of the car with her clothes blown off. No indication of Boris' earthly remains noticeable. It looked to me like the one on the left pushed her (as others have noted), but then it looked to me like he flinched back slightly, like he expected an explosion. If so, I'm pretty sure he didn't expect that big of an explosion. |
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KS, USA
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Posted: 12/7/2022 4:50:55 PM EDT
[Last Edit: merick]
[#9]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By DK-Prof: The inflation we are experiencing now has pretty much NOTHING to do with the expenditures of sending weapons/money to Ukraine. It is a TINY drop in the bucket compared to our own military spending and budgets. It would not contribute to inflation in any meaningful way. The inflation we are seeing is because of DECADES of government spending, quantitative easing, deliberately keeping cheap money available via low fed interest rates, etc. It is a long-term effect of a lot of systemic macro-economic factors. Ukraine has nothing to do with it. Since Nixon temporarily closed the gold window each drop in the bucket has been tiny, no single one contributing in any meaningful way. |
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Posted: 12/7/2022 4:52:17 PM EDT
[Last Edit: stone-age]
[#10]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By UKjohn: looked like the one on the left clacked a vest off Looks to me like the one in the back pushed her toward the car, then ducked and reached inside his coat and the trunk or back seat of the car exploded. |
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FIN
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Posted: 12/7/2022 5:00:09 PM EDT
[#11]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By K0UA: Are you so blind you cannot see that by sending arms to Ukraine we will payed back many fold by then being able to sell arms to other countries? Can you not see that by our defense contractors selling arms to other countries (and the examples are already rolling in) that this will provide jobs for thousand of Americans and stimulate our economy? It will wind up benefiting everyday Americans. Can you not see that the defeat of Russia on the world stage is truly the defeat of an evil empire that will benefit just about everyone in the free world? Not just America, but the rest too? Can you not see that we are getting this benefit for PEANUTS? Yes we have spent NEXT TO NOTHING so far in the endeavor and already are reaping the rewards. Are you truly that blind? So blinded by partisan bullshit you cannot see past your nose? You speak of echo chambers, when you cannot even hold a hard though for yourself, but echo some crap from some idiot talking points you have heard somewhere. If there are costs in supporting Ukraine, they will be paid back to us and the rest of the world many times over. In case you haven't noticed then I will point it out to you, that we are busy helping defeat an enemy of ours that has been an enemy for around 100 years, and we are doing it on the cheap. The Ukrainians are the ones that are bravely dying every day for the freedom of the rest of the world to rid the world of the evil empire, or what is left of it. And you begrudge us even supplying the arms to do it. I truly have a hard time understanding you and others that are as blind as you. And I mean that sincerely. Yep. Someone is recognizing a great deal when you see it. - Fuck up Soviet Union (again) without boots on ground. - Everyone and their mother buying US weapons and ditching old soviet stuff. - All the soviet arms that have been flooding the market get sent to Ukraine (and are off the market) creating even more sales opportunities. - Expand US sphere of influence (Ukraine aligning with west, NATO expanding). - Sales equal jobs |
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Posted: 12/7/2022 5:02:42 PM EDT
[#12]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By Jack67: Is it actually even that high? I would have guessed less. Obviously there is other debt spending also, but this has been the fuel on the fire for inflation. |
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Posted: 12/7/2022 5:04:44 PM EDT
[#13]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By Eat_Beef: Inflation would be the first and most obvious, but it doesn't take much imagination to come up with all kinds of potential issues. For some reason, folks in this thread are only able to use their imagination to come up with reasons why it won't cost anything, and we're all going to end up rich because of this war. If you think what we are spending there is the cause of inflation, you need to educate yourself. What we are doing in this war is being what America is seen as, the beacon of freedom and hope for those folks in Ukraine. These people look to us as a model to aspire to, unlike the inbred goat fucking morons we wasted 20 fucking years letting them hate us and not wanting us there. Unlike the inbred goat fucking morons we wasted 20 years on, these folks have the potential to be an economic powerhouse in Europe, and a great trading partner. These are intelligent, motivated people who were the brains behind soviet and russian tech. We are spending a small portion of our defense budget supplying weapons to Ukraine. Fuck, the money the pentagon cannot account for dwarfs what is being spent. Biden shutting off new drilling and exploration increasing the price of oil, shutting down the world for covid, and the ensuing supply chain issues plus non stop covid bucks, and bailout plans for their cronies has a hell of a lot more to do with inflation than supplying arms and humanitarian aid to Ukraine. |
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Posted: 12/7/2022 5:05:03 PM EDT
[#14]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By trapsh00ter99: I counted just PPP, stimmy, Covid spending, inflation reduction act, and student loan forgiveness. That totals roughly 6 trillion, and you Ukraine is roughly 1% of that. Obviously there is other debt spending also, but this has been the fuel on the fire for inflation. OK, thanks for that summary. |
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Posted: 12/7/2022 5:06:47 PM EDT
[#15]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By johnspark: Sorry about this, but I'm not sure who these people are that died. Can someone fill me in please? |
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NV, USA
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Posted: 12/7/2022 5:07:21 PM EDT
[#16]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By AlmightyTallest:
https://pbs.twimg.com/media/FjYGATeUoAEEVZj?format=jpg&name=900x900 https://pbs.twimg.com/media/FjYGJjKVIAA7IBx?format=png&name=small https://www.airandspaceforces.com/laplante-congress-will-support-multiyear-weapons-munitions-procurements/
Awesome. Surprised to see so many Harpoons and ATACMS, as I had thought those were 'obsolete' and being replaced with NSM/LRASM and PrSM. Stocking stuffers for Taiwan? |
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Posted: 12/7/2022 5:10:57 PM EDT
[#17]
"Ukrainian Rocket Crews Fend Off Russian Infantry With Updated Launchers"  Ukrainian Rocket Crews Fend Off Russian Infantry With Updated Launchers |
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KS, USA
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Posted: 12/7/2022 5:11:23 PM EDT
[#18]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By 8balls: Yep. Someone is recognizing a great deal when you see it. - Fuck up Soviet Union (again) without boots on ground. - Everyone and their mother buying US weapons and ditching old soviet stuff. - All the soviet arms that have been flooding the market get sent to Ukraine (and are off the market) creating even more sales opportunities. - Expand US sphere of influence (Ukraine aligning with west, NATO expanding). - Sales equal jobs Krupp family portrait .jpg |
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Posted: 12/7/2022 5:18:18 PM EDT
[#19]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By Easterner: "Putin says threat of nuclear war is increasing" "Putin says he still views nuclear weapons as a deterrent measure. "We have not gone crazy. We are aware of what nuclear weapons are. We have these means, they are in a more advanced and modern form than those of any other nuclear country, this is obvious,"." https://edition.cnn.com/europe/live-news/russia-ukraine-war-news-12-07-22/index.html Sure vlad, we see your modern weaponry on display. You buy the vast majority of it from your enemies, or cob shit together from off the shelf. You want me to believe your nukes are the best and properly cared for? Lo fucking L. If nato jumps into this hootenanny, your military wouldn't last a week. Go ahead and pop a nuke, we will end you, russia will no longer exist. This is why I am not a diplomat. |
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Posted: 12/7/2022 5:21:13 PM EDT
[#20]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By johnspark: Sorry about this, but I'm not sure who these people are that died. Can someone fill me in please? Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By johnspark: Originally Posted By ricko1: Originally Posted By UKjohn: looked like the one on the left clacked a vest off "Maria Pirogova, 29, has been member of the DPR People’s Council since 2018 DONETSK, December 6. /TASS/. Maria Pirogova, a member of the parliament of the Donetsk People’s Republic (DPR), has been killed in shelling by Ukrainian troops, a spokesman for the DPR People’s Militia told TASS on Tuesday." https://www.google.com/amp/s/tass.com/politics/1546565/amp |
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Posted: 12/7/2022 5:21:55 PM EDT
[#21]
"They Called Him The Specialist: Ukrainian Man Tells Of Kherson Torturer"  ''They Called Him The Specialist'': Ukrainian Man Tells Of Kherson Torturer |
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Posted: 12/7/2022 5:23:12 PM EDT
[#22]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By lorazepam: Sure vlad, we see your modern weaponry on display. You buy the vast majority of it from your enemies, or cob shit together from off the shelf. You want me to believe your nukes are the best and properly cared for? Lo fucking L. If nato jumps into this hootenanny, your military wouldn't last a week. Go ahead and pop a nuke, we will end you, russia will no longer exist. This is why I am not a diplomat. Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By lorazepam: Originally Posted By Easterner: "Putin says threat of nuclear war is increasing" "Putin says he still views nuclear weapons as a deterrent measure. "We have not gone crazy. We are aware of what nuclear weapons are. We have these means, they are in a more advanced and modern form than those of any other nuclear country, this is obvious,"." https://edition.cnn.com/europe/live-news/russia-ukraine-war-news-12-07-22/index.html Sure vlad, we see your modern weaponry on display. You buy the vast majority of it from your enemies, or cob shit together from off the shelf. You want me to believe your nukes are the best and properly cared for? Lo fucking L. If nato jumps into this hootenanny, your military wouldn't last a week. Go ahead and pop a nuke, we will end you, russia will no longer exist. This is why I am not a diplomat. Yeah that tidbit i quoted is hilarious. Russia StRoNk! |
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IL, USA
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Posted: 12/7/2022 5:23:17 PM EDT
[#23]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By johnspark: Sorry about this, but I'm not sure who these people are that died. Can someone fill me in please? Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By johnspark: Originally Posted By ricko1: Originally Posted By UKjohn: looked like the one on the left clacked a vest off A Quisling in the legislature of the insurgent Regime in Donetsk. She got a summary judgement of Death for Treason. |
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WA, USA
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Posted: 12/7/2022 5:28:55 PM EDT
[#24]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By trapsh00ter99: I counted just PPP, stimmy, Covid spending, inflation reduction act, and student loan forgiveness. That totals roughly 6 trillion, and you Ukraine is roughly 1% of that. Obviously there is other debt spending also, but this has been the fuel on the fire for inflation. That's not how an echo chamber works dammit.  Spending is a big part of the inflation problem but there are also other parts to consider. Another major one was the big hole in production caused by the lockdown. Simple supply and demand. Production for EVERTHING dropped so prices go up. The expectation created in the work force of being paid to stay at home hinders the ability for production to pick back up without some other outside factor. Ramping up production of damn near anything at this point is going to have a ripple effect that is needed. |
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WA, USA
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Posted: 12/7/2022 5:32:28 PM EDT
[#25]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By lorazepam: Sure vlad, we see your modern weaponry on display. You buy the vast majority of it from your enemies, or cob shit together from off the shelf. You want me to believe your nukes are the best and properly cared for? Lo fucking L. If nato jumps into this hootenanny, your military wouldn't last a week. Go ahead and pop a nuke, we will end you, russia will no longer exist. This is why I Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By lorazepam: Originally Posted By Easterner: "Putin says threat of nuclear war is increasing" "Putin says he still views nuclear weapons as a deterrent measure. "We have not gone crazy. We are aware of what nuclear weapons are. We have these means, they are in a more advanced and modern form than those of any other nuclear country, this is obvious,"." https://edition.cnn.com/europe/live-news/russia-ukraine-war-news-12-07-22/index.html Sure vlad, we see your modern weaponry on display. You buy the vast majority of it from your enemies, or cob shit together from off the shelf. You want me to believe your nukes are the best and properly cared for? Lo fucking L. If nato jumps into this hootenanny, your military wouldn't last a week. Go ahead and pop a nuke, we will end you, russia will no longer exist. This is why I We are way past time for some Big Stick diplomacy. |
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Posted: 12/7/2022 5:34:56 PM EDT
[#26]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By spydercomonkey: Awesome. Surprised to see so many Harpoons and ATACMS, as I had thought those were 'obsolete' and being replaced with NSM/LRASM and PrSM. Stocking stuffers for Taiwan? Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By spydercomonkey: Originally Posted By AlmightyTallest:
https://pbs.twimg.com/media/FjYGATeUoAEEVZj?format=jpg&name=900x900 https://pbs.twimg.com/media/FjYGJjKVIAA7IBx?format=png&name=small https://www.airandspaceforces.com/laplante-congress-will-support-multiyear-weapons-munitions-procurements/
Awesome. Surprised to see so many Harpoons and ATACMS, as I had thought those were 'obsolete' and being replaced with NSM/LRASM and PrSM. Stocking stuffers for Taiwan? Yes.
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Posted: 12/7/2022 5:40:44 PM EDT
[#27]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By Auto5guy: Stop it! That's not how an echo chamber works dammit. Spending is a big part of the inflation problem but there are also other parts to consider. Another major one was the big hole in production caused by the lockdown. Simple supply and demand. Production for EVERTHING dropped so prices go up. The expectation created in the work force of being paid to stay at home hinders the ability for production to pick back up without some other outside factor. Ramping up production of damn near anything at this point is going to have a ripple effect that is needed. |
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AL, USA
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Posted: 12/7/2022 5:41:00 PM EDT
[#28]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By DK-Prof: The inflation we are experiencing now has pretty much NOTHING to do with the expenditures of sending weapons/money to Ukraine. It is a TINY drop in the bucket compared to our own military spending and budgets. It would not contribute to inflation in any meaningful way. The inflation we are seeing is because of DECADES of government spending, quantitative easing, deliberately keeping cheap money available via low fed interest rates, etc. It is a long-term effect of a lot of systemic macro-economic factors. Ukraine has nothing to do with it. Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By DK-Prof: Originally Posted By Eat_Beef: Originally Posted By Capta: “If priming the pump is so effective, why aren’t lockmart and raytheon doing it themselves?” Because defense contractors invading sovereign countries with private armies is frowned upon? Do you really think that's what we are talking about, or is this just trying to make a cheap shot? “Second and third order costs of sending stuff now.” Please expand on this. What are these costs and why do you believe they will be incurred? Inflation would be the first and most obvious, .... The inflation we are experiencing now has pretty much NOTHING to do with the expenditures of sending weapons/money to Ukraine. It is a TINY drop in the bucket compared to our own military spending and budgets. It would not contribute to inflation in any meaningful way. The inflation we are seeing is because of DECADES of government spending, quantitative easing, deliberately keeping cheap money available via low fed interest rates, etc. It is a long-term effect of a lot of systemic macro-economic factors. Ukraine has nothing to do with it. This is correct. Ukraine military aid is but a rounding error in the factors that caused the current inflation increase. All of the major factors also pre-date the Russian invasion of Ukraine on 24 Feb 2022. |
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Posted: 12/7/2022 5:44:33 PM EDT
[#29]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By amannamedjed: It looked to me like the one on the left pushed her (as others have noted), but then it looked to me like he flinched back slightly, like he expected an explosion. If so, I'm pretty sure he didn't expect that big of an explosion. Girl on the left opens a door or something in the plywood. I noticed that too, but it looks like the wave you're seeing is the plywood bending out. Also, watch the lights on the car flicker just before the boom. IED tied to the locks? At first, it appeared that both women heard an incoming and decided to scoot. Now I'm thinking IED that was obviously bigger than anticipated by girl on left. |
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Posted: 12/7/2022 5:44:45 PM EDT
[#30]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By Jack67: Interesting - all the news reports attribute it to an artillery attack (generic "shelling"). The video seems clearly to be a targeted drone strike. The DPR lied about it initially, but then got caught out by the unexpected video footage? Looks like a car bomb to me. She unlocks the car and boomage happens. |
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Posted: 12/7/2022 5:54:19 PM EDT
[#31]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By Hueto: Girl on the left opens a door or something in the plywood. I noticed that too, but it looks like the wave you're seeing is the plywood bending out. Also, watch the lights on the car flicker just before the boom. IED tied to the locks? At first, it appeared that both women heard an incoming and decided to scoot. Now I'm thinking IED that was obviously bigger than anticipated by girl on left. I saw that. We all saw that. But for the moment I'm going to guess it was some kind of technical glitch or even radio interference of some sort that made it look like the plywood turned blurry when in fact it has nothing to do with nothing. |
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Posted: 12/7/2022 5:54:53 PM EDT
[#32]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By Ike838: Looks like a car bomb to me. She unlocks the car and boomage happens. Yep, I get that now. At first I thought they were reacting to a noise - but a loitering munition like that made no sense on 2nd thought. Tass and RT still say it was from artillery fired on civilian targets. https://tass.com/politics/1546565 |
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Posted: 12/7/2022 5:59:01 PM EDT
[#33]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By Tiberius: A Quisling in the legislature of the insurgent Regime in Donetsk. She got a summary judgement of Death for Treason. Props to the guy who was willing to push the button on a traitor. But I think he used a bit too much explosive. Maybe a class or something is in order for their organization. Maybe putting the bomb up against a gas tank has side effects. |
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WA, USA
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Posted: 12/7/2022 6:02:55 PM EDT
[#34]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By stone-age: Props to the guy who was willing to push the button on a traitor. But I think he used a bit too much explosive. Maybe a class or something is in order for their organization. Maybe putting the bomb up against a gas tank has side effects. Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By stone-age: Originally Posted By Tiberius: A Quisling in the legislature of the insurgent Regime in Donetsk. She got a summary judgement of Death for Treason. Props to the guy who was willing to push the button on a traitor. But I think he used a bit too much explosive. Maybe a class or something is in order for their organization. Maybe putting the bomb up against a gas tank has side effects. |
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Posted: 12/7/2022 6:03:50 PM EDT
[#35]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By spydercomonkey: Awesome. Surprised to see so many Harpoons and ATACMS, as I had thought those were 'obsolete' and being replaced with NSM/LRASM and PrSM. Stocking stuffers for Taiwan? If Ukraine can keep fighting smart, russia is going to regret ever doing this. Russians on the front line with no ammo, food, water, heat, or shelter are going to regret it. I'm glad we are finally giving the Ukranians the weapons they need. |
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Posted: 12/7/2022 6:05:57 PM EDT
[#36]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By spydercomonkey: Awesome. Surprised to see so many Harpoons and ATACMS, as I had thought those were 'obsolete' and being replaced with NSM/LRASM and PrSM. Stocking stuffers for Taiwan? China has made their military by copying russian military stuff. China is watching how russian stuff works against american stuff. If taiwan gets american stuff, china will be worried. |
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Posted: 12/7/2022 6:38:00 PM EDT
[#37]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By Eat_Beef: If your 'go to community college and take an econ class' wasn't economic snobbery, I'm sorry, but that's what it sounds like. You're going through a lot of gymnastics to overlook the fact that the public is paying the price, and the main ROI will be to private outfits. Maybe I've just missed all the headlines about the defense industry offering free weapons to Ukraine, and State turning them down. Again, this is exactly the problem here. Rather than admitting that it sucks to pay for this in taxes and inflation, you try to make it seem like it is a good thing economically. It is not. You can try to make up theoretical situations where it MIGHT pay for itself, but those are longshots, and we all know it. There are MANY things in life that are the right thing to do, but the actual doing of them is costly. I've not found that lying to myself about that fact makes them less costly. Edit to add: I'm not sure where you're getting the political litmus test thing. That's not my intent at all. Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By Eat_Beef: Originally Posted By Jack67: You seem to make the case aid is a political litmus test, not a rational exercise. (“Ukraine bros…”. - “…conservative…”, “…everything is perfect and Holy”). No one at all has said anything is “holy” about it, or flawless and certain in the process. Please don’t mischaracterize my or anyone’s arguments so grossly. It’s not expressly a “liberal” or “conservative” issue. In fact, it’s likely the most bi-partisan issue this country has seen since 9/11. Lockmart, Raytheon, etc. can’t “prime the pump” because: a) that’s not at all what “priming the pump” means in economic terms, by definition. They also b) aren’t allowed to conduct their own foreign policy by unilaterally arming who they want, and c) they don’t stockpile meaningful levels of compled systems for emergencies - this is uniquely a government function. It’s not a liberal or conservative issue as you seem to want to make it - those are simply economic and governmental realities. There is no “snobbery” in pointing out - logically, clearly - some basic economic realities when those arguments are brought up. Nor was there any straw man argument used. Calling it “snobbery” just makes an ad hominem argument instead of contributing to the conversation. I think this thread may seem like an echo chamber to some because it tries to stick to reasoned analysis and not chest thumping or shouting. If your 'go to community college and take an econ class' wasn't economic snobbery, I'm sorry, but that's what it sounds like. You're going through a lot of gymnastics to overlook the fact that the public is paying the price, and the main ROI will be to private outfits. Maybe I've just missed all the headlines about the defense industry offering free weapons to Ukraine, and State turning them down. Again, this is exactly the problem here. Rather than admitting that it sucks to pay for this in taxes and inflation, you try to make it seem like it is a good thing economically. It is not. You can try to make up theoretical situations where it MIGHT pay for itself, but those are longshots, and we all know it. There are MANY things in life that are the right thing to do, but the actual doing of them is costly. I've not found that lying to myself about that fact makes them less costly. Edit to add: I'm not sure where you're getting the political litmus test thing. That's not my intent at all. No, it is your assumptions that are wrong. Your claim would be identical to saying the .gov shouldn't be paying for roads and bridges because FedEx, UPS, J.B. Hunt, Walmart, and Amazon all benefit from them. His math is correct in that the cost of providing arms to Ukraine provides both a benefit to us in helping to defeat a known enemy but also to show to weapons purchasers worldwide that US gear is superior to others. This is the bargain of the century in terms of what we get out of it. |
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Posted: 12/7/2022 6:40:19 PM EDT
[#38]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By Eat_Beef: I already did, in my first post about it on page 3129. Since then many have come in saying it will end up paying back more than it costs. Here is the original comment: Worth giving them away to demonstrate real world battlefield effectiveness to potential buyers. To say nothing of the lessons being gained for our own use. Again, you've all proven my point about this echo chamber, anyone who doesn't agree that everything is great is mobbed, without regard to what is true or logical. Go ahead, flame me, I'm going back to lurking, and you all can go back to slapping one another on the back and pretending there aren't costs associated with our support of Ukraine. Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By Eat_Beef: Originally Posted By Easterner: Quote who said it won't cost anything. Many did say there are benefits besides the moral side of stepping up.  I already did, in my first post about it on page 3129. Since then many have come in saying it will end up paying back more than it costs. Here is the original comment: Worth giving them away to demonstrate real world battlefield effectiveness to potential buyers. To say nothing of the lessons being gained for our own use. Again, you've all proven my point about this echo chamber, anyone who doesn't agree that everything is great is mobbed, without regard to what is true or logical. Go ahead, flame me, I'm going back to lurking, and you all can go back to slapping one another on the back and pretending there aren't costs associated with our support of Ukraine. And that statement you quoted is objectively verifiable. There are costs to doing nothing as well, something you seemed to have glossed over. |
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Posted: 12/7/2022 6:41:07 PM EDT
[Last Edit: Prime]
[#39]
My favorite Russian.
At least 3 brigades of the Armed Forces of Ukraine approached Artemovsk (Bakhmut). Fresh and well equipped. The first successes made it possible to reach other people's positions. Well unwound by artillery. This is just the beginning. ✏️ @ieZekiil_9 2️⃣0️⃣5️⃣ https://t.me/mototroopers_205/745 Added for any of our Russian speakers. Под Артемовск (Бахмут) подошло минимум 3 бригады ВСУ. Свежие и хорошо оснащённые. Первые успехи позволили выйти на чужие позиции. Хорошо размотанные артиллерией. Все только начинается. ✏️ @ieZekiil_9 2️⃣0️⃣5️⃣ |
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Posted: 12/7/2022 6:41:26 PM EDT
[#40]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By K0UA: Are you so blind you cannot see that by sending arms to Ukraine we will payed back many fold by then being able to sell arms to other countries? Can you not see that by our defense contractors selling arms to other countries (and the examples are already rolling in) that this will provide jobs for thousand of Americans and stimulate our economy? It will wind up benefiting everyday Americans. Can you not see that the defeat of Russia on the world stage is truly the defeat of an evil empire that will benefit just about everyone in the free world? Not just America, but the rest too? Can you not see that we are getting this benefit for PEANUTS? Yes we have spent NEXT TO NOTHING so far in the endeavor and already are reaping the rewards. Are you truly that blind? So blinded by partisan bullshit you cannot see past your nose? You speak of echo chambers, when you cannot even hold a hard though for yourself, but echo some crap from some idiot talking points you have heard somewhere. If there are costs in supporting Ukraine, they will be paid back to us and the rest of the world many times over. In case you haven't noticed then I will point it out to you, that we are busy helping defeat an enemy of ours that has been an enemy for around 100 years, and we are doing it on the cheap. The Ukrainians are the ones that are bravely dying every day for the freedom of the rest of the world to rid the world of the evil empire, or what is left of it. And you begrudge us even supplying the arms to do it. I truly have a hard time understanding you and others that are as blind as you. And I mean that sincerely. Well said. |
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USA
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Posted: 12/7/2022 7:01:20 PM EDT
[#41]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By Lightning_P38: I do get it, that doesn't mean we have upheld the "spirit" of the deal. Legal and right are sometimes different things. ETA: As near as I can tell, the deal was made in a halcyon environment where Russia was going to be a good guy, and the US would reap the rewards of a free world. In the US we really didn't expect the Russians to be back at it so soon, so agreements like that weren't taken seriously. Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By Lightning_P38: Originally Posted By klinc: Give it up... been trying to get this through people's skulls for years now. ETA: As near as I can tell, the deal was made in a halcyon environment where Russia was going to be a good guy, and the US would reap the rewards of a free world. In the US we really didn't expect the Russians to be back at it so soon, so agreements like that weren't taken seriously. The agreement is 100% worthless? No teeth? The Ukrainians were duped? OK. Let’s look at the flip side of that: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nuclear_power_in_Ukraine We all know Ukraine isn’t going to topple Moscow, so that means they need to live with Russia right over the border. Since security agreements are a joke, and Ukraine can’t trust the UK, France, China, even the USA, and least of all Russia, that leaves only ONE country Ukraine can trust: themselves, but they are far smaller than Russia. Zelenski needs to develop and detonate a nuclear weapon, probably underground. He has the operating reactors, and with those come the scientists needed to refine fissile material to weapons grade. He has the missile industry, and a Ukrainian nuclear bomb need only reach Moscow. Since there is no BudaPest agreement (and agreements mean nothing anyway) there is nothing to stop Zelinski from testing a nuclear weapon. Before anyone says “but NATO, but but the EU!” - You want Ukraine to disarm itself again? Fine. Ukraine’s conditions are full NATO and EU membership AND NATO nukes on the border with Russia. |
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Posted: 12/7/2022 7:10:38 PM EDT
[#42]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By Prime: My favorite Russian. At least 3 brigades of the Armed Forces of Ukraine approached Artemovsk (Bakhmut). Fresh and well equipped. The first successes made it possible to reach other people's positions. Well unwound by artillery. This is just the beginning. @ieZekiil_9 https://t.me/mototroopers_205/745 what does this mean the fresh ukr brigades get hit with artillery? |
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ND, USA
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Posted: 12/7/2022 7:11:24 PM EDT
[#43]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By AROKIE: Same here! Not one person. Southern Oklahoma Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By AROKIE: Originally Posted By sq40: Originally Posted By Jack67: Originally Posted By AROKIE: True, My honest Opinion though, is that they will not take Crimea before Melitopol. I have a strong feeling, and not just from these latest remarks from the white house but comments over time and also from the growing impatience of the American people and from congress that we (USA) are looking for a peaceful settlement and that "we" would be OK if that only included feb 2022 losses returned… I don’t “hear” that myself. I hear the opposite, really. I imagine this is colored by how and where you listen - not saying my sources are superior at all, or disputing that is your perception. I listen to what I hear friends and family say, look at the general comment/reply ratio on Twitter, also GD here is even an indicator. I haven’t seen pro-Ukraine sentiment really waver and I’ve seen a decrease in anti-Ukraine sentiment as the war goes well (everyone like a winner, they say). I’m quite optimistic, more so than the early days - much more so. The war crimes, attack on civilians, kidnapping of children - it’s all added up. I’ve seen the core pro-Ukraine positions harden and the soft- and anti- ones weaken. Just a data point, not trying to fight about it. My own experience; The only place I hear anti-Ukrainian sentiment is here on Arfcom. Not at work. Not on TV. Not in the community. Not from friends or family. Nowhere in western WV I’ve been. Same here! Not one person. Southern Oklahoma Same up here in North Dakota. And I seen a lot of Ukrainian flags flying in Manitoba Canada too. |
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Posted: 12/7/2022 7:11:57 PM EDT
[#44]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By QUACK32: Lights flash and BOOM  Pretty girl, collaborator, and now just a grease spot in the parking area. |
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Posted: 12/7/2022 7:16:01 PM EDT
[#45]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By planemaker: No, it is your assumptions that are wrong. Your claim would be identical to saying the .gov shouldn't be paying for roads and bridges because FedEx, UPS, J.B. Hunt, Walmart, and Amazon all benefit from them. His math is correct in that the cost of providing arms to Ukraine provides both a benefit to us in helping to defeat a known enemy but also to show to weapons purchasers worldwide that US gear is superior to others. This is the Fify  Attached File |
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Posted: 12/7/2022 7:18:50 PM EDT
[#46]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By Easterner: "Putin says threat of nuclear war is increasing" "Putin says he still views nuclear weapons as a deterrent measure. "We have not gone crazy. We are aware of what nuclear weapons are. We have these means, they are in a more advanced and modern form than those of any other nuclear country, this is obvious,"." https://edition.cnn.com/europe/live-news/russia-ukraine-war-news-12-07-22/index.html Wait What? |
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Posted: 12/7/2022 7:19:29 PM EDT
[#47]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By theskuh: what does this mean the fresh ukr brigades get hit with artillery? Not sure, I’d like that “unwound” clarified by a native speaker. It sounds like they managed to do well enough to reinforce already existing positions. |
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AB, CAN
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Posted: 12/7/2022 7:24:09 PM EDT
[#48]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By Shadyman: Same up here in North Dakota. And I seen a lot of Ukrainian flags flying in Manitoba Canada too. The Holodomor pushed a lot of Ukrainians to emigrate to western Canada. |
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Posted: 12/7/2022 7:27:15 PM EDT
[#49]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By m24shooter: There's some weird stuff going on at around the 12 second mark of that video. The two are walking towards the front of the car, and as she passes the plywood door (?) the one behind does something and there is an odd "wave" of the plywood door towards the right side/top. I can't tell what it is but if you roll it back and forth right around those frames the plywood almost appears to move or flex. Just after that there is the flash, and it looks like Natasha goes ass over tit forward, blyating onto the pavement forward and left of the car with her clothes blown off. No indication of Boris' earthly remains noticeable. Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By m24shooter: Originally Posted By ricko1: Watching closely.... the one on the right looks to turn and start running towards the car than stops like she sees something, the one on the left then gives her a push towards the car and then BOOM! I'm leaning one on the left set off an IED by the car and the boom was bigger than she thought it was going to be. There's some weird stuff going on at around the 12 second mark of that video. The two are walking towards the front of the car, and as she passes the plywood door (?) the one behind does something and there is an odd "wave" of the plywood door towards the right side/top. I can't tell what it is but if you roll it back and forth right around those frames the plywood almost appears to move or flex. Just after that there is the flash, and it looks like Natasha goes ass over tit forward, blyating onto the pavement forward and left of the car with her clothes blown off. No indication of Boris' earthly remains noticeable. I saw that too. Like the plywood was bulging out. |
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Posted: 12/7/2022 7:27:34 PM EDT
[#50]
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