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Posted: 1/9/2023 6:47:54 PM EDT
[#1]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By Ryan_Scott: There’s a mathematical formula for calculating roughly the penetration depth of an APFSDS projectile and it says 93mm. There are very few places on the front of a T-72 that would fall victim to that and the gun isn’t accurate enough to stack rounds in the same place except at extremely close range. Now, are they sawing through armor with long bursts at 50m? Maybe. But that doesn’t scale. Only a small percentage of enemy armor is going to let you do that without killing you. The calculations/performance aren’t quite that simple. And real-world variable really make a simple yes/no answer about “will it penetrate this?” very problematic. Also, you don’t need to stack rounds in the same place to take advantage of softening. Just in the vicinity is adequate. DU does not penetrate like hardened projectiles, or even tungsten. It has elements of both a physical penetrator and a HEAT round, in fact - and self-sharpens in the process, which changes all the standard performance parameters. It’s quite a different beast, the metallurgy of it still highly classified (and it has been improved since Iraq into a new, more deadly alloy). There is a reason the M829 round is called the “magic bullet.” Bottom line wrt Bradley ammo: the DU rounds are way more lethal than the tungsten AP rounds. Let’s just hope those go with the units and see what happens, give them the best ammo and not our tier-2 stuff. |
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Posted: 1/9/2023 6:48:45 PM EDT
[#2]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By 7empest: So damn depressing.  Hopefully the Ukrainians can recover the situation and push the orcs back.I think the Ukrainian forces have a lot of fallback positions in the area. |
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Posted: 1/9/2023 6:53:20 PM EDT
[#3]
6 min ago.
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Posted: 1/9/2023 6:56:55 PM EDT
[#4]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By AlmightyTallest: I think the Ukrainian forces have a lot of fallback positions in the area. I am sure they do. It is just depressing. Seeing a people willing to sacrifice everything to defend their country just hits me harder. Glory to the Heroes indeed! |
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Posted: 1/9/2023 7:01:27 PM EDT
[#5]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By 7empest: I am sure they do. It is just depressing. Seeing a people willing to sacrifice everything to defend their country just hits me harder. Glory to the Heroes indeed! Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By 7empest: Originally Posted By AlmightyTallest: I think the Ukrainian forces have a lot of fallback positions in the area. I am sure they do. It is just depressing. Seeing a people willing to sacrifice everything to defend their country just hits me harder. Glory to the Heroes indeed! It is frustrating when this happens, but I would not be surprised they regain ground if reinforcements arrive. Its happened before. I will be praying for them tonight. |
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Posted: 1/9/2023 7:04:45 PM EDT
[#6]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By AlmightyTallest: I think the Ukrainian forces have a lot of fallback positions in the area. Yes, and hopefully are making the exchange worth it wrt to lives. One note is the order of battle. Hard to really track it intelligently as no one I can find does that, and I do it haphazardly and not systematically. The 46th Airmobile defending Soledar now was a spearhead unit in re-taking Kherson. It had been trained up and re-equipped in the UK earlier. That they took an elite unit like that right out of the Kherson fight and moved it to Bakhmut is telling - they may not at all be sharpening for an offensive move elsewhere but instead putting everything into this defense. Just a limited observation, not a promise. Wagner may be buying all the regular forces on other fronts a winter reprieve to re-fit. |
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Posted: 1/9/2023 7:07:10 PM EDT
[#7]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By Jack67: I can’t swear to what I didn’t see, but I can relate what I have read from credible sources. This is one of multiple credible sources I have read wrt what DU 25mm can do. I just skimmed about 100 pages of a book I recently read to find the relevant parts; I had not annotated them. This relates specifically to the action of C Troop, 3/7 Cavalry screening the 3rd ID deployment through An Najaf on the way to Baghdad, 3/25 to 3/27 2003. The 3/7 received a PUC for this action and others on the way to Baghdad. The action at An Najaf was particularly intense: Later that same evening (“Casanova” is the name of Sgt. William’s Bradley in C Troop): This is from Carnivore by SSG Dillard Johnson. In this case he’s describing other action he witnessed, not his own. Ppgs 180-184/329 (digital edition). I would also point out SSG Johnson was the lead scout for his troop in the 3/7, which was the recon unit for the 3ID. I will not question his tank ID skills. ;) Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By Jack67: I can’t swear to what I didn’t see, but I can relate what I have read from credible sources. This is one of multiple credible sources I have read wrt what DU 25mm can do. I just skimmed about 100 pages of a book I recently read to find the relevant parts; I had not annotated them. This relates specifically to the action of C Troop, 3/7 Cavalry screening the 3rd ID deployment through An Najaf on the way to Baghdad, 3/25 to 3/27 2003. The 3/7 received a PUC for this action and others on the way to Baghdad. The action at An Najaf was particularly intense: Later that same evening (“Casanova” is the name of Sgt. William’s Bradley in C Troop): This is from Carnivore by SSG Dillard Johnson. In this case he’s describing other action he witnessed, not his own. Ppgs 180-184/329 (digital edition). I would also point out SSG Johnson was the lead scout for his troop in the 3/7, which was the recon unit for the 3ID. I will not question his tank ID skills. ;) CARNIVORE the book is not a credible source. It has been debunked by a while bunch of people in the .mil. The author is pretty much known as a liar. I wouldn't believe anything in it, and I don't believe 25mmDU goes through a tank. Here is a review from Amazon. I was in Crazyhorse with this guy from 2002-2006. This book is a joke and should be filed under fiction or comedy. Not only is it full of name misspellings, shameless product placements, and gross embellishments, he is claiming hundreds more kills than what is recorded for our entire squadron (which in itself is only an estimate, because there is absolutely no way of tallying the number of dead on an active battlefield). To me he is spitting on the graves of the friends we lost over there, just to make a buck. Any soldier will tell you that they don't normally talk about this stuff and the ones who brag are usually the ones who are the most full of crap. Trust me, there is a reason this guys nickname was "story time". If for a technical reference, you choose a book written by a guy who claims to have killed 2700 people, please. just. stop. https://www.businessinsider.com/dillard-johnson-2700-kills-amazon-carnivore-2013-6 The soldier whose new book — "Carnivore" — contains claims he has killed more than 2,700 people is getting eviscerated in the comments section of Amazon. America's deadliest soldier? Dillard Johnson says he never made that claim. Retired Army Sgt. Dillard Johnson's new Iraq war memoir has angered other veterans. He says the criticism is mostly unfair. By Dan Murphy Staff writer June 27, 2013 Yesterday I wrote about Dillard Johnson's new book "Carnivore," published by the News Corporation's HarperCollins and heavily promoted by News Corporation outlets like the New York Post and Fox News. The promotional effort around the book has carried a hard-to-believe, almost impossible claim: that Johnson had 2,746 "confirmed" enemy kills over the course of two tours in Iraq. His first tour came during the 2003 invasion and the second for roughly 12 months starting in February 2005. The claimed kills, which first surfaced in NewsCorp's New York Post on Monday ("With 2,746 confirmed kills, Sgt. 1st Class Dillard Johnson is the deadliest American soldier on record — and maybe the most humble"), was then repeated on a number of Fox News programs this week and mirrored around the Internet. Similar claims are made in HarperCollins' publicity for the book ("He is recognized by the Pentagon to have accounted for more than 2,000 enemy killed in action," says the book jacket; "Credited with more than 2,600 enemy KIA, he is perhaps the most lethal ground soldier in U.S. history," says both the book jacket and a blurb the publisher supplied to Amazon; the book cover calls him "One of the deadliest American soldiers of all time.") |
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Posted: 1/9/2023 7:16:13 PM EDT
[#8]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By CharlieR: CARNIVORE the book is not a credible source. It has been debunked by a while bunch of people in the .mil. The author is pretty much known as a liar. I wouldn't believe anything in it, and I don't believe 25mmDU goes through a tank. Here is a review from Amazon. If for a technical reference, you choose a book written by a guy who claims to have killed 2700 people, please. just. stop. https://www.businessinsider.com/dillard-johnson-2700-kills-amazon-carnivore-2013-6 The soldier whose new book — "Carnivore" — contains claims he has killed more than 2,700 people is getting eviscerated in the comments section of Amazon. A typical B17 crewmen laughs at those puny numbers... 
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Posted: 1/9/2023 7:17:18 PM EDT
[#9]
2 min ago.
 
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Posted: 1/9/2023 7:26:55 PM EDT
[#10]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By 7empest: So damn depressing. Hopefully the Ukrainians can recover the situation and push the orcs back.And damn it the West needs to stop debating and slow rolling shit. Give the Ukrainians the fucking tools already and they will do the job. I'd be kind of worried that Ukraine is fighting too hard for Bahkmut. As was said it isn't a place that gives the Russians much of anything valuable. Also there are good defensive positions they can fall back to. |
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Posted: 1/9/2023 7:27:29 PM EDT
[#11]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By weptek911: ALL their Mosins are at the front. They had to dig into their stockpile of K98s for propaganda videos. Are those Buryat women? I have seen the girl on the right before. Posing. Maybe someone's avatar on this forum. I can't remember for sure, but I have seen her before. |
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Posted: 1/9/2023 7:28:09 PM EDT
[Last Edit: gentlemanfarmer]
[#12]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By AlmightyTallest: 2 min ago.
https://pbs.twimg.com/media/FmEQJn6XgAI1RM2?format=png&name=large https://pbs.twimg.com/media/FmEQJ5BWQAE2R3r?format=png&name=large This Russians started its winter offensive in two places, Soledar is one. Ukraine recently rotated a bunch of guys out, this is a common occurrence that needs to examined. Rotate guys out, Russia hits before new units are situated. The rotation at Lysichansk was a problem because of comms. However, the Russians shouldn’t be able to mass troops w/o observation. I’m not real concerned yet. If we see a couple brigades move to flank the flanker then it means a delay in the later winter offensive. |
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Posted: 1/9/2023 7:33:25 PM EDT
[#13]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By jhereg: Then create a mechanism for it, or dissolve NATO and reinvite the countries you want in the new version. At least from what I can see and read Turkey seems to be cozying up to Russia and be directly against what a lot of NATA was created for. If Russia is sufficiently dealt with (and we all survive) it may be time to reconsider NATO. Let the Eastern members, including Ukraine, Finland, Sweden, Poland etc form an alliance while the Western members like Germany, continue to experiment with dissolving themselves. |
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Posted: 1/9/2023 7:34:14 PM EDT
[#14]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By Dominion21: Personally, I do not believe the actual T-62s and T-72s which are physically present in Ukraine right now, will stay in the fight for long after receiving a burst of 25mm fire from a Ukrainian Bradley. If nothing else, the exterior view ports and sensors on a T-72 will be quickly scrubbed off if hit by a Bradley’s 25mm. More distant Russian tanks face the TOW. As for doubts about setting things on fire, it’s not classified as to what DU does if it manages to penetrate: it becomes a potent incendiary. Only time will tell for sure. I believe the 50+ Bradleys will eventually be game changers, negating nearly all of Russia’s armor. Nope. The TOW2B has a near 100% pK rate. Gunners are taught to engage tanks and armored vehicles with TOW. Ask me how I know. Bradleys are armed with HEI-T and APFSDS-T. One of the chief advantages of HEI is you can utilize it in closer proximity to troops when they are clearing trenches. So after troops are dismounted to clear trenches, Brads would use HE to suppress enemy. Friendly tanks in long overwatch isolate the objective and take care of enemy tanks that counterattack IFVs with eggshell armor move behind friendly tanks so as not to get caught up in an engagement they arent suited for, None of this addresses where the mechanics are, the spare parts, or what to do when they mechanically break. I am mystified why everyone is fantasizing and salivating over how to misuse the 25MM to engage targets that gunners are specifically taught not to engage. |
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Posted: 1/9/2023 7:42:20 PM EDT
[#15]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By CharlieR: CARNIVORE the book is not a credible source. It has been debunked by a while bunch of people in the .mil. The author is pretty much known as a liar. I wouldn't believe anything in it, and I don't believe 25mmDU goes through a tank. Here is a review from Amazon. If for a technical reference, you choose a book written by a guy who claims to have killed 2700 people, please. just. stop. https://www.businessinsider.com/dillard-johnson-2700-kills-amazon-carnivore-2013-6 The soldier whose new book — "Carnivore" — contains claims he has killed more than 2,700 people is getting eviscerated in the comm It has in fact been “eviscerated” in comments. It’s also been backed-up by people who were there, including some in this forum (see the 2013 12 page thread on it). Many parts of it also confirmed by the US Army’s history of the conflict (see “On Point…”). There are lots of other people who had the same experience wrt to M919. Attacking a single source isn’t going to change things. Also, as I carefully noted, the parts I quoted WERE not from him, they came from a troop mate’s report, and confirmed. It’s not worth arguing about this here and starting a separate DU thread might be best if you’d like. |
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Posted: 1/9/2023 7:49:03 PM EDT
[#16]
orcs are getting stacked like cordwood
SEND MORE ORCS 
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Posted: 1/9/2023 7:49:21 PM EDT
[#17]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By CharlieR: Nope. The TOW2B has a near 100% pK rate. Gunners are taught to engage tanks and armored vehicles with TOW. Ask me how I know. Bradleys are armed with HEI-T and APFSDS-T. One of the chief advantages of HEI is you can utilize it in closer proximity to troops when they are clearing trenches. So after troops are dismounted to clear trenches, Brads would use HE to suppress enemy. Friendly tanks in long overwatch isolate the objective and take care of enemy tanks that counterattack IFVs with eggshell armor move behind friendly tanks so as not to get caught up in an engagement they arent suited for, None of this addresses where the mechanics are, the spare parts, or what to do when they mechanically break. I am mystified why everyone is fantasizing and salivating over how to misuse the 25MM to engage targets that gunners are specifically taught not to engage. But we are being told that the 25mm will punch clean through the turrets on the Missouri... iirc the Brad gunner can switch ammo types he will shoot. Can it switch back and forth between HEI and the APDS? |
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Posted: 1/9/2023 7:52:56 PM EDT
[#18]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By Jack67: The calculations/performance aren’t quite that simple. And real-world variable really make a simple yes/no answer about “will it penetrate this?” very problematic. Also, you don’t need to stack rounds in the same place to take advantage of softening. Just in the vicinity is adequate. DU does not penetrate like hardened projectiles, or even tungsten. It has elements of both a physical penetrator and a HEAT round, in fact - and self-sharpens in the process, which changes all the standard performance parameters. It’s quite a different beast, the metallurgy of it still highly classified (and it has been improved since Iraq into a new, more deadly alloy). There is a reason the M829 round is called the “magic bullet.” Bottom line wrt Bradley ammo: the DU rounds are way more lethal than the tungsten AP rounds. Let’s just hope those go with the units and see what happens, give them the best ammo and not our tier-2 stuff. M829A1 was nicknamed the silver bullet in Desert Storm, which was 31 years ago. That's the 120mm. Not the 25mm The field manual states the 25mm is 134 grams going at 1345 M/S. That's 121 Kilojoules. At the muzzle. M1 tank rounds, M829A1 is a ten pound projectile going 1500M/S, 5000 KJ. The effective target range is 3,000 m for the tank round. https://www.calculatorsoup.com/calculators/physics/kinetic.php SO: If the tank round has an effective range of 3000 meters and has 40 times the kinetic energy of the bradley round, how much of a game changer is the bradley round? |
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Posted: 1/9/2023 8:10:35 PM EDT
[#19]
Quote History30s "time to scoot" question: given say median range and projectile flight time, would this be off the X before impact? |
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Posted: 1/9/2023 8:34:06 PM EDT
[Last Edit: Freiheit8472]
[#20]
Well big surprise the grand Russian offensive is barely a step above bonsai charges.
As long as the Uks don’t run out of ammo and have the problems the Germans had, they can handle it. They won’t know what to do when the Uks go on counteroffensive and break through. It’ll just be mayhem and hopefully a lot of would-be bonsai boys shooting their commissars. I don’t think this assault tactic in soledar is possible as a defense, when the front becomes fluid and moving their direction. |
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Posted: 1/9/2023 8:38:40 PM EDT
[#21]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By AlmightyTallest:
https://pbs.twimg.com/media/FmD86YSX0B0tZ_B?format=jpg&name=900x900 Just shut the fuck up and send it already!  |
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MN, USA
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Posted: 1/9/2023 8:41:18 PM EDT
[#22]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By Jack67: They are saying they are *thinking about* sending 10. Whole point is to break the ice and shame Germany or the US into doing the right thing. Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By Jack67: Originally Posted By ArmyInfantryVet: Did I miss some news about the Brits sending over Challenger 2's to Ukraine? I know this thread moves fast They are saying they are *thinking about* sending 10. Whole point is to break the ice and shame Germany or the US into doing the right thing. Boiling the Russian frog. They probably told the west that mbt's are a redline so we have slowly been inching closer to that line. |
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Posted: 1/9/2023 8:44:06 PM EDT
[#23]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By ricko1: Anyone else tired of hearing "US planning to send...... Germany considering to send...... England discussing whether to send..... Poland contemplating on sending......." Just shut the fuck up and send it already! 100% this Churchill's speech comes to mind "What is the answer that I shall give, in your name, to this great man, the thrice-chosen head of a nation of a hundred and thirty millions? Here is the answer which I will give to President Roosevelt: Put your confidence in us. Give us your faith and your blessing, and, under Providence, all will be well. We shall not fail or falter; we shall not weaken or tire. Neither the sudden shock of battle, nor the long-drawn trials of vigilance and exertion will wear us down. Give us the tools, and we will finish the job." Winston Churchill February 9, 1941 Broadcast from London |
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Posted: 1/9/2023 8:53:24 PM EDT
[#24]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By 7empest: 100% this Churchill's speech comes to mind "What is the answer that I shall give, in your name, to this great man, the thrice-chosen head of a nation of a hundred and thirty millions? Here is the answer which I will give to President Roosevelt: Put your confidence in us. Give us your faith and your blessing, and, under Providence, all will be well. We shall not fail or falter; we shall not weaken or tire. Neither the sudden shock of battle, nor the long-drawn trials of vigilance and exertion will wear us down. Give us the tools, and we will finish the job." Winston Churchill February 9, 1941 Broadcast from London Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By 7empest: Originally Posted By ricko1: Anyone else tired of hearing "US planning to send...... Germany considering to send...... England discussing whether to send..... Poland contemplating on sending......." Just shut the fuck up and send it already! 100% this Churchill's speech comes to mind "What is the answer that I shall give, in your name, to this great man, the thrice-chosen head of a nation of a hundred and thirty millions? Here is the answer which I will give to President Roosevelt: Put your confidence in us. Give us your faith and your blessing, and, under Providence, all will be well. We shall not fail or falter; we shall not weaken or tire. Neither the sudden shock of battle, nor the long-drawn trials of vigilance and exertion will wear us down. Give us the tools, and we will finish the job." Winston Churchill February 9, 1941 Broadcast from London Don’t feel bad guys I’ve been screaming for Bradley’s and patriots, and F16s for 8.75 years now. This debate about donating old gear has jaded me on our whole foreign policy gig for that long. Watching FIM sales to shady countries for all of that time. It’s ridiculous that it’s taken this long. We really didn’t want Ukraine to win. Also we made assurances at Minsk I and II that will be published one day. History I hope is a real bitch on the US (Obama, Trump, Biden) for dragging our feet and aiding Russia for 8 years. The whole we trained Ukrainians prior to the war is a gross overs estimation of what happened. Guys joked about it in 2017. I got to learn how to tie tourniquets. It slowly improved but the number of guys matriculated, is pretty minuscule. Anyway better late than never. |
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Posted: 1/9/2023 9:17:27 PM EDT
[#25]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By ricko1: Anyone else tired of hearing "US planning to send...... Germany considering to send...... England discussing whether to send..... Poland contemplating on sending......." Just shut the fuck up and send it already! Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By ricko1: Originally Posted By AlmightyTallest:
https://pbs.twimg.com/media/FmD86YSX0B0tZ_B?format=jpg&name=900x900 Just shut the fuck up and send it already! Everyone on Twitter is as well. Getting everyone used to the idea that Tanks are okay for the next round of supplies I guess. |
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Posted: 1/9/2023 9:19:58 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 7empest]
[#26]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By gentlemanfarmer: Don’t feel bad guys I’ve been screaming for Bradley’s and patriots, and F16s for 8.75 years now. This debate about donating old gear has jaded me on our whole foreign policy gig for that long. Watching FIM sales to shady countries for all of that time. It’s ridiculous that it’s taken this long. We really didn’t want Ukraine to win. Also we made assurances at Minsk I and II that will be published one day. History I hope is a real bitch on the US (Obama, Trump, Biden) for dragging our feet and aiding Russia for 8 years. The whole we trained Ukrainians prior to the war is a gross overs estimation of what happened. Guys joked about it in 2017. I got to learn how to tie tourniquets. It slowly improved but the number of guys matriculated, is pretty minuscule. Anyway better late than never. Mordor is lucky I am not in charge of things... No Mr. Sauron I have no Idea how the Hobbits got their hands on a SSBN... |
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Posted: 1/9/2023 9:24:38 PM EDT
[#27]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By Freiheit8472: bonsai charges. Putin is drafting the Ents now? |
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USA
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Posted: 1/9/2023 9:30:05 PM EDT
[Last Edit: Dominion21]
[#28]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By Freiheit8472: Well big surprise the grand Russian offensive is barely a step above bonsai charges. As long as the Uks don’t run out of ammo and have the problems the Germans had, they can handle it. They won’t know what to do when the Uks go on counteroffensive and break through. It’ll just be mayhem and hopefully a lot of would-be bonsai boys shooting their commissars. I don’t think this assault tactic in soledar is possible as a defense, when the front becomes fluid and moving their direction. Aerial deployment of self-destructing land mines to the east of Bakmut would seem like a good idea right now. But, my guess is we, in the west, are too frightened of criticism to use a weapon like land mines, even though the Russians don’t hesitate to use them. It would be glorious if the human waves of Mobiks would just blow themselves to pieces without the Ukrainians have to shoot them. |
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Posted: 1/9/2023 9:30:43 PM EDT
[#29]
Quote History[b]Originally Posted By AlmightyTallest:[/ Everyone on Twitter is as well. Getting everyone used to the idea that Tanks are okay for the next round of supplies I guess. Quote History[b]Originally Posted By AlmightyTallest:[/ Everyone on Twitter is as well. Getting everyone used to the idea that Tanks are okay for the next round of supplies I guess. Maybe I missed this if posted, but France also pushing hard for a meaningful tank solution: https://www.politico.eu/article/france-and-poland-push-germany-to-send-leopard-tanks-to-ukraine/ So based on past performance, now that EVERYONE is saying it’s way overdue, Schulz may do the right thing. I swear, I’ve never seen a major world leader who liked to stay so far behind the leadership curve. |
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ON, CAN
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Posted: 1/9/2023 9:33:45 PM EDT
[#30]
This fucking bhakmut situation...argh
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Posted: 1/9/2023 9:43:20 PM EDT
[Last Edit: Birddog15]
[#31]
Hmmm. Denys thinks that Ukrainian forces will leave Soledar.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=quBRzASo-Ug ETA He discusses this at about 1:55 |
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Posted: 1/9/2023 9:44:16 PM EDT
[#32]
Think of all the vehicles and gear we just abandoned in Afghanistan. Could have given all that and not even made a dent in our inventory.
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Posted: 1/9/2023 9:44:57 PM EDT
[Last Edit: CarmelBytheSea]
[#33]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By Paraflare: This fucking bhakmut situation...argh History of warfare 
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AL, USA
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Posted: 1/9/2023 9:45:26 PM EDT
[#34]
Thoughts and prayers for the men and women fighting for their homes in Bakhmut and Soledar.
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Posted: 1/9/2023 9:47:31 PM EDT
[Last Edit: CarmelBytheSea]
[#35]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By AlmightyTallest: Everyone on Twitter is as well. Getting everyone used to the idea that Tanks are okay for the next round of supplies I guess. Someone should @ElonMusk 
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Posted: 1/9/2023 9:48:06 PM EDT
[#36]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By ricko1: Anyone else tired of hearing "US planning to send...... Germany considering to send...... England discussing whether to send..... Poland contemplating on sending......." Just shut the fuck up and send it already! Meeting being held at Ramstein AFB |
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Posted: 1/9/2023 10:11:39 PM EDT
[#37]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By ArmyInfantryVet: I'd be kind of worried that Ukraine is fighting too hard for Bahkmut. As was said it isn't a place that gives the Russians much of anything valuable. Also there are good defensive positions they can fall back to. Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By ArmyInfantryVet: Originally Posted By 7empest: So damn depressing. Hopefully the Ukrainians can recover the situation and push the orcs back.And damn it the West needs to stop debating and slow rolling shit. Give the Ukrainians the fucking tools already and they will do the job. I'd be kind of worried that Ukraine is fighting too hard for Bahkmut. As was said it isn't a place that gives the Russians much of anything valuable. Also there are good defensive positions they can fall back to. But it does, salt mines where they can store weapons ammo, troops out of the reach of Himars. Right now that's priceless to russia. |
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Posted: 1/9/2023 10:17:22 PM EDT
[#38]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By AROKIE: But it does, salt mines where they can store weapons ammo, troops out of the reach of Himars. Right now that's priceless to russia. Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By AROKIE: But it does, salt mines where they can store weapons ammo, troops out of the reach of Himars. Right now that's priceless to russia. So it’s not actually to corner the market on gypsum, like the White house and the msm reported a few days ago? ;) https://www.theguardian.com/world/2023/jan/06/putin-ally-fighting-to-control-salt-and-gypsum-mines-near-ukraine-city-of-bakhmut-says-us (Just a reminder how wrong they can be - we all laughed at this days ago. Not arguing w/you). |
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Posted: 1/9/2023 10:27:33 PM EDT
[#39]
ISW assessment for January 9th.
https://www.understandingwar.org/backgrounder/russian-offensive-campaign-assessment-january-9-2023 |
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NV, USA
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Posted: 1/9/2023 10:27:45 PM EDT
[#40]
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WI, USA
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Posted: 1/9/2023 10:27:52 PM EDT
[#41]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By K0UA: I have seen the girl on the right before. Posing. Maybe someone's avatar on this forum. I can't remember for sure, but I have seen her before. @Apocalypto |
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Posted: 1/9/2023 10:29:11 PM EDT
[#42]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By AlmightyTallest: ISW assessment for January 9th. https://www.understandingwar.org/backgrounder/russian-offensive-campaign-assessment-january-9-2023 Good grief ISW continues to be slow as fuck with maps |
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WI, USA
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Posted: 1/9/2023 10:33:57 PM EDT
[#43]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By gentlemanfarmer: Don’t feel bad guys I’ve been screaming for Bradley’s and patriots, and F16s for 8.75 years now. This debate about donating old gear has jaded me on our whole foreign policy gig for that long. Watching FIM sales to shady countries for all of that time. It’s ridiculous that it’s taken this long. We really didn’t want Ukraine to win. Also we made assurances at Minsk I and II that will be published one day. History I hope is a real bitch on the US (Obama, Trump, Biden) for dragging our feet and aiding Russia for 8 years. The whole we trained Ukrainians prior to the war is a gross overs estimation of what happened. Guys joked about it in 2017. I got to learn how to tie tourniquets. It slowly improved but the number of guys matriculated, is pretty minuscule. Anyway better late than never. After supporting the Maidan movement, the US administration pretty much pulled the plug on Ukraine support. I don't understand it. The Foggy Bottom boys and/or the feckless buffoons in the White House screwed the pooch with Ukraine. Maybe they were scared because big bad Russia so quickly took Crimea & Donbas. |
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Posted: 1/9/2023 10:34:10 PM EDT
[#44]
43 min ago.
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Posted: 1/9/2023 10:34:19 PM EDT
[#45]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By spydercomonkey: https://i.redd.it/ntpcm5tnq4ba1.png Hey, you gotta give some credit. Americans generally suck at geography and foreign languages. Can’t wait for 87% of GD having to learn the names of tiny Pacific islands with multiple different names in languages they can’t pronounce in a war over Taiwan. |
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Posted: 1/9/2023 10:34:52 PM EDT
[#46]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By CarmelBytheSea: Good grief ISW continues to be slow as fuck with maps Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By CarmelBytheSea: Originally Posted By AlmightyTallest: ISW assessment for January 9th. https://www.understandingwar.org/backgrounder/russian-offensive-campaign-assessment-january-9-2023 Good grief ISW continues to be slow as fuck with maps Yeah, they are very cautious.
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WI, USA
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Posted: 1/9/2023 10:36:34 PM EDT
[#47]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By AlmightyTallest: We'll see if this gets legs fast with the British offer of Challenger 2.
Didn't Poland already send 200 T72s? |
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Posted: 1/9/2023 10:37:20 PM EDT
[#48]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By AlmightyTallest: Yeah, they are very cautious. To be fair it’s the opposite of some others who redraw their maps inaccurately every other day and then correct them long afterwards. |
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Posted: 1/9/2023 10:39:23 PM EDT
[#49]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By Lieh-tzu: After supporting the Maidan movement, the US administration pretty much pulled the plug on Ukraine support. I don't understand it. The Foggy Bottom boys and/or the feckless buffoons in the White House screwed the pooch with Ukraine. Maybe they were scared because big bad Russia so quickly took Crimea & Donbas. It’s almost like not that long after the Russians hired the vice presidents son and US policy changed. |
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Posted: 1/9/2023 10:42:36 PM EDT
[Last Edit: AlmightyTallest]
[#50]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By Lieh-tzu: Didn't Poland already send 200 T72s? Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By Lieh-tzu: Originally Posted By AlmightyTallest: We'll see if this gets legs fast with the British offer of Challenger 2.
Didn't Poland already send 200 T72s? Poland sent more than 240 modernized T-72s, but yes.
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