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WI, USA
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Posted: 1/9/2023 10:48:25 PM EDT
[#1]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By AlmightyTallest:
https://pbs.twimg.com/media/FmD86YSX0B0tZ_B?format=jpg&name=900x900 Well, damn, just send those 100 Strykers right to Poland instead of the depot. Get'em back in service. |
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USA
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Posted: 1/9/2023 10:48:28 PM EDT
[#2]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By 7empest: So damn depressing.  Hopefully the Ukrainians can recover the situation and push the orcs back.It's folly to think Ukraine won't have setbacks or losses. Russia may not be what we imagined a year ago but it's impossible that they will never have any successes or that Ukraine won't suffer heavy losses at any point. Doesn't mean doom, just that both sides get a say in how things play out. |
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Posted: 1/9/2023 10:50:31 PM EDT
[#3]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By Lieh-tzu: Didn't Poland already send 200 T72s? It’s not tanks, per se, that has been the hang-up. It’s GOOD western tanks - heavier, much better armor, 120mm guns, NATO ammo, thermals, active protection, etc. |
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Posted: 1/9/2023 10:53:14 PM EDT
[Last Edit: CarmelBytheSea]
[#4]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By amanbearpig: It's folly to think Ukraine won't have setbacks or losses. Russia may not be what we imagined a year ago but it's impossible that they will never have any successes or that Ukraine won't suffer heavy losses at any point. Doesn't mean doom, just that both sides get a say in how things play out. I’ve been posting that since May. Which is why I occasionally post the gif of the Korean War map. 
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Posted: 1/9/2023 10:55:34 PM EDT
[#5]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By AlmightyTallest: 2 min ago.
https://pbs.twimg.com/media/FmEQJn6XgAI1RM2?format=png&name=large https://pbs.twimg.com/media/FmEQJ5BWQAE2R3r?format=png&name=large |
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Posted: 1/9/2023 11:24:14 PM EDT
[#6]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By Lieh-tzu: Well, damn, just send those 100 Strykers right to Poland instead of the depot. Get'em back in service. Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By Lieh-tzu: Originally Posted By AlmightyTallest:
https://pbs.twimg.com/media/FmD86YSX0B0tZ_B?format=jpg&name=900x900 Well, damn, just send those 100 Strykers right to Poland instead of the depot. Get'em back in service. Supposedly they are PITA to keep the guns up but yeah they should be in Poland ready to go on a train. Strikers of any type. What about LAVs? Imagine enough parts for those around to keep them going too. |
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Posted: 1/9/2023 11:25:54 PM EDT
[#7]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By Jack67: So it’s not actually to corner the market on gypsum, like the White house and the msm reported a few days ago? ;) (Just a reminder how wrong they can be - we all laughed at this days ago. Not arguing w/you). Lol I know, I was actually basing my comment of what the Russians actually said about needing to take the mines. Not my own opinion |
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Posted: 1/9/2023 11:27:03 PM EDT
[#8]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By spydercomonkey: https://i.redd.it/ntpcm5tnq4ba1.png Lol amazing what you can learn over the course of a year if you put your time in.. but you are 100 percent right 
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Posted: 1/9/2023 11:28:48 PM EDT
[#9]
Update on radios, my wife’s former employee and volunteer went to the Motorola office and Motorola called the brigade. We have not got invoice yet though.
https://www.usinua.org/current-projects.html We did ship out 6 boxes today to bahkmut and others.  Attached File |
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Posted: 1/9/2023 11:31:56 PM EDT
[#10]
So I get that there may be bigtime strategic NATO considerations with top-tier weapons, good or bad there is stuff to consider. Politics. Logistics. Politics. Whatever.
How about the Ukraine guys holding the line at bayonet range? |
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Posted: 1/9/2023 11:46:14 PM EDT
[#11]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By general_cluster: Well, that's a start. The ceramic armor on these fascinates me, any information on how it performs IRL? Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By general_cluster: Originally Posted By AlmightyTallest: 35 min ago.
Well, that's a start. The ceramic armor on these fascinates me, any information on how it performs IRL? Of the below is true those orcs with rpgs are gonna be in fkr a shock  Attached File |
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Posted: 1/9/2023 11:47:15 PM EDT
[#12]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By XJ: So I get that there may be bigtime strategic NATO considerations with top-tier weapons, good or bad there is stuff to consider. Politics. Logistics. Politics. Whatever. How about the Ukraine guys holding the line at bayonet range? The fact that we didn’t use the last 8 years to train Ukrainians on gear and sell them the items to them as they asked is the real tragedy. Why haven’t 1,000s of Ukrainians been through training schools on equipment since Feb24? It’s great that we are finally helping but damn it’s almost a year in. Better late than never but the dithering is sickening. I’ll take us seriously when F16s are dropping cluster bombs on orc concentrations. |
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Posted: 1/10/2023 12:00:59 AM EDT
[#13]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By gentlemanfarmer: The fact that we didn’t use the last 8 years to train Ukrainians on gear and sell them the items to them as they asked is the real tragedy. Why haven’t 1,000s of Ukrainians been through training schools on equipment since Feb24? It’s great that we are finally helping but damn it’s almost a year in. Better late than never but the dithering is sickening. I’ll take us seriously when F16s are dropping cluster bombs on orc concentrations. Overpaying for Hunter Biden paintings is likely the best path to obtaining advanced weapons for Ukraine. It is the end of the world as we know it, music follows... |
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Posted: 1/10/2023 12:09:51 AM EDT
[#14]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By gentlemanfarmer: The fact that we didn't use the last 8 years to train Ukrainians on gear and sell them the items to them as they asked is the real tragedy. Why haven't 1,000s of Ukrainians been through training schools on equipment since Feb24? It's great that we are finally helping but damn it's almost a year in. Better late than never but the dithering is sickening. I'll take us seriously when F16s are dropping cluster bombs on orc concentrations. I don't think anyone in the US wanted to go toe to toe with the Russians in a regional battle. Our response to Georgia was nonexistent. I am not sure if operating in Syria changed things or if the us just smelled blood in the water. I still think it is a big gamble trying to fight Russia in its backyard. We are going to have to heavily strike into Russia to get them to stop. Their supply lines are very short and they are going to continue to throw men at the problem as long as they can. There also is the fact that there is support for russia in the east maybe a lot is manufactured but its going to not be any sort of smooth reunification if god willing russia is pushed to the borders. |
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Posted: 1/10/2023 12:14:59 AM EDT
[#15]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By kbi: Of the below is true those orcs with rpgs are gonna be in fkr a shock https://www.ar15.com/media/mediaFiles/77256/Screenshot_20230109-224441_Chrome_jpg-2666967.JPG Yeah that appears to be true: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Challenger_2#Operational_history It reminds me vaguely of this, which I’ll toss in for humor since it’s a slow news time. Enjoy the lulz:  Attached File(And pretend for a minute the Bonnie Dick thing didn’t happen…) |
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Posted: 1/10/2023 12:31:21 AM EDT
[#16]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By gentlemanfarmer: Update on radios, my wife’s former employee and volunteer went to the Motorola office and Motorola called the brigade. We have not got invoice yet though. https://www.usinua.org/current-projects.html We did ship out 6 boxes today to bahkmut and others. https://www.ar15.com/media/mediaFiles/419667/0C8E16FB-D0AE-4C47-8E3B-6DA3F9710AD9_jpe-2666946.JPG Doing the Lord's work. |
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Posted: 1/10/2023 1:00:28 AM EDT
[#17]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By XJ: 30s "time to scoot" question: given say median range and projectile flight time, would this be off the X before impact? Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By XJ: 30s "time to scoot" question: given say median range and projectile flight time, would this be off the X before impact?  ARCHER Shoot and Scoot |
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NV, USA
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Posted: 1/10/2023 1:29:50 AM EDT
[#18]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By ITCHY-FINGER: I have the same observation but suspect you are correct on some camera bias. Although it is probably very hard to see an enemy wearing camo, crawling in bushes, doing his utmost to be invisible past 50M. Add in smoke and all the wreckage and debris and few observers willing to stick their head out to stare across the battlefield to look for them. We hear that 70-80% of the battlefield casualties are caused by arty. I'm sure that is true and certainly agrees with all the footage we are seeing. (probably closer to 90% sometimes) But I'd be curious if it was broken down by range: Past 200 M, 95% of casualties are probably caused by arty (5% from sniper fire and the lucky shot). But inside of 100 M, probably 95% is caused by small arms fire and grenades. maybe 50:50 grenade : rife fire. The stats that come out from this war will be studies a lot and will be very interesting. We have not seen this type of warfare since WWII. Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By ITCHY-FINGER: Originally Posted By spydercomonkey: Somewhat similarly, with the rise of magnified optics, and the long range shooting experience with Afghanistan, I think there was an expectation that there'd be a lot more long range rifle fire. Yet a lot of what we're seeing is within 100m, and a number of videos we've seen rifle fights at handgun distances, and that hand grenades seem to have proven every bit as important as rifles. I'd be curious to know whether this is really the general experience from UA veterans, or whether this is a 'camera bias' where it just seems like most rifle fights are close range due to those being the distances that are possible to film? I have the same observation but suspect you are correct on some camera bias. Although it is probably very hard to see an enemy wearing camo, crawling in bushes, doing his utmost to be invisible past 50M. Add in smoke and all the wreckage and debris and few observers willing to stick their head out to stare across the battlefield to look for them. We hear that 70-80% of the battlefield casualties are caused by arty. I'm sure that is true and certainly agrees with all the footage we are seeing. (probably closer to 90% sometimes) But I'd be curious if it was broken down by range: Past 200 M, 95% of casualties are probably caused by arty (5% from sniper fire and the lucky shot). But inside of 100 M, probably 95% is caused by small arms fire and grenades. maybe 50:50 grenade : rife fire. The stats that come out from this war will be studies a lot and will be very interesting. We have not seen this type of warfare since WWII. Thats one of the other takeaways I've had - Frag Grenades being super important. Numerous videos have shown rifle fights being finished - decisively - only when frag grenades enter the picture. I wonder if this will result in any further study of 'optimal' grenade design? For example, is it better to have a bigger grenade with more bang, or a smaller grenade that can be thrown further / more accurately, and more can be carried? 5-7x rifle mags is pretty standard, but whats the optimal grenade loadout? 
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Posted: 1/10/2023 1:33:20 AM EDT
[#19]
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Posted: 1/10/2023 1:34:04 AM EDT
[#20]
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Posted: 1/10/2023 1:44:44 AM EDT
[#21]
Click To View Spoiler |
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Posted: 1/10/2023 1:47:33 AM EDT
[#22]
Quote Historyabout time, I heard about this during the summer and was wondering why it was taking so long. looks like they wont receive them till mid summer of this year. |
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Posted: 1/10/2023 2:00:15 AM EDT
[#23]
Quote HistoryWas reading that yesterday morning but hadn’t finished the article, your post reminded me to finish reading it |
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Posted: 1/10/2023 2:02:32 AM EDT
[#24]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By ArmyInfantryVet: Yeah, it'd be totally easy for somebody to sell M2 ODS Bradleys on the black market. Totally wouldn't raise any eyebrows or get any authority's attention. I almost bought some Bradley parts to start my m2 Bradley build 
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Posted: 1/10/2023 2:04:16 AM EDT
[#25]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By ludder093: We should be buying that system for our own use. I think the Susanna is a bit better system and costs less with a completely protected crew and turret. But I’m not an artillery guy. |
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Posted: 1/10/2023 2:12:03 AM EDT
[#26]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By Lieh-tzu: After supporting the Maidan movement, the US administration pretty much pulled the plug on Ukraine support. I don't understand it. The Foggy Bottom boys and/or the feckless buffoons in the White House screwed the pooch with Ukraine. Maybe they were scared because big bad Russia so quickly took Crimea & Donbas. Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By Lieh-tzu: Originally Posted By gentlemanfarmer: Don’t feel bad guys I’ve been screaming for Bradley’s and patriots, and F16s for 8.75 years now. This debate about donating old gear has jaded me on our whole foreign policy gig for that long. Watching FIM sales to shady countries for all of that time. It’s ridiculous that it’s taken this long. We really didn’t want Ukraine to win. Also we made assurances at Minsk I and II that will be published one day. History I hope is a real bitch on the US (Obama, Trump, Biden) for dragging our feet and aiding Russia for 8 years. The whole we trained Ukrainians prior to the war is a gross overs estimation of what happened. Guys joked about it in 2017. I got to learn how to tie tourniquets. It slowly improved but the number of guys matriculated, is pretty minuscule. Anyway better late than never. After supporting the Maidan movement, the US administration pretty much pulled the plug on Ukraine support. I don't understand it. The Foggy Bottom boys and/or the feckless buffoons in the White House screwed the pooch with Ukraine. Maybe they were scared because big bad Russia so quickly took Crimea & Donbas. There wasn’t much us support. A few public speeches and BS but the idea that the US had any involvement in the Maidan in BS. Ukraine was a backwater with few us diplos and even fewer spies. We only stepped with tv takes once Russian SF and proxies starting smoking protestors. Even then it was just words from 8000 miles away. |
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Posted: 1/10/2023 2:24:23 AM EDT
[Last Edit: lycurgus]
[#27]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By Dracster: I posted this back around pg 400. It'll give you an idea.  https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=d8x8ITwd4VgQuote HistoryOriginally Posted By Dracster: Originally Posted By XJ: 30s "time to scoot" question: given say median range and projectile flight time, would this be off the X before impact? https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=d8x8ITwd4VgAdditional general info video regarding Archer: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xgeY6rHJL9A |
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Posted: 1/10/2023 2:25:59 AM EDT
[Last Edit: Jack67]
[#28]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By gentlemanfarmer: There wasn’t much us support. A few public speeches and BS but the idea that the US had any involvement in the Maidan in BS. Ukraine was a backwater with few us diplos and even fewer spies. We only stepped with tv takes once Russian SF and proxies starting smoking protestors. Even then it was just words from 8000 miles away. This was my take. The whole “US backed” was a pretty successful Russian disinfo campaign they started once the shooting started and post-facto. To the degree US “hopes and prayers” are backing, it’s true. But as far as the whole CIA-orchestrated BS, it just didn’t happen. It was very clearly a popular uprising against the corrupt oligarchs and Yanukovych. Yanukovych had suddenly, unexpectedly, and very suspiciously, pivoted away from a widely-popular political and trade agreement w/the EU. This seriously crossed the line in the people’s view and launched the Maidan protests. The US was sitting back and trying to figure out what was going on, not masterminding the revolution. Shortly after the revolution, Russian-backed Burisima started paying the Bidens a lot of money. US support for Ukrainian independence from Moscow and anti-corruption and efforts then disappeared and US policy became one of basic indifference. Linkage? IDK. Fact? Yes. ETA: I know most all regular contributors know this, but there are readers/lurkers and revisiting key topics for them doesn’t hurt. Good of gentlemanf. to recap, I just dogpiled on for depth. |
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NV, USA
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Posted: 1/10/2023 2:50:34 AM EDT
[#29]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By OBird: I’m curious how effective a lot of these drone-dropped munitions are. I mean, they must have to be pretty light. A lot of videos with direct or near-direct hits, with orcs moving around after. Who knows for how long though… Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By OBird: Originally Posted By general_cluster: Now I am wondering if those guys just didn't get startled and trip over themselves. Front left guys goes down, but seems to be getting up near end of the video. Doesn't seem to be nursing any wounds. Front right guy walks off screen, suggesting he isn't really hurt. I’m curious how effective a lot of these drone-dropped munitions are. I mean, they must have to be pretty light. A lot of videos with direct or near-direct hits, with orcs moving around after. Who knows for how long though… Many of the grenade fragments are tiny, weighing 1-3gr (a BB gun .177 BB is 4.5gr). So kinda like being hit with a steel grain of sand - but flying 5,000fps+. Distance greatly effects lethality; I recall reading a grenade brochure where at 2.5m the frags were defeating IIIA armor + 2mm aluminum, while at 5m most of the frags were not defeating 2mm AL (ie 2-3 penetrations but 10+ frags hitting the sheet.) Distance also hugely effected the number of impacts per that same grenade brochure (wish I could find it.) At 2.5m it was like 20+ penetration vs 2 penetrations at 5m. I haven't seen a ballistics gel test of what these frags do, but given how tiny they are its understandable that they're not instant kills or even reliably lethal. So long as they result in the soldier calling it a day and not fighting though thats a success. |
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Posted: 1/10/2023 2:53:20 AM EDT
[Last Edit: Prime]
[#30]
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Posted: 1/10/2023 4:31:50 AM EDT
[#31]
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Posted: 1/10/2023 4:34:54 AM EDT
[Last Edit: Prime]
[#32]
   
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Posted: 1/10/2023 4:40:44 AM EDT
[#33]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By Easterner: https://www.ar15.com/media/mediaFiles/526834/IMG_20230110_102920_jpg-2667121.JPG Time to catch up. A ship was sunk?  I wonder where? |
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Posted: 1/10/2023 4:44:32 AM EDT
[#34]
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Posted: 1/10/2023 4:53:12 AM EDT
[#35]
Interesting...
 https://vk.com/wall-177427428_1713 |
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Posted: 1/10/2023 5:04:32 AM EDT
[#36]
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Posted: 1/10/2023 5:06:30 AM EDT
[Last Edit: Prime]
[#37]
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Posted: 1/10/2023 5:12:56 AM EDT
[#38]
If legit, there's only one way out of Russia now.
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Posted: 1/10/2023 5:42:49 AM EDT
[#39]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By fadedsun: I wonder where? Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By fadedsun: Originally Posted By Easterner: https://www.ar15.com/media/mediaFiles/526834/IMG_20230110_102920_jpg-2667121.JPG Time to catch up. A ship was sunk? I wonder where? “He went to look for the base of Azov at the bottom of the Black Sea?”: APU knocked out a Russian ship "We will provide some more information regarding the enemy ship / boat after clarification," the General Staff said in a statement. It will be clear whether the ship is sunk or damaged. "Brilliant" Russians: forever "modernize" their surface cruisers into submarines. Analog Avnet. Also, during the day, the Armed Forces of Ukraine destroyed 4 enemy tanks, 4 UAVs, 7 infantry fighting vehicles, 4 artillery systems and 8 vehicles and tank trucks. And as we already wrote, 710 invaders were liquidated. #officially https://t.me/Pravda_Gerashchenko/59748 |
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Posted: 1/10/2023 5:57:05 AM EDT
[#40]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By Prime: If legit, there's only one way out of Russia now.
https://pbs.twimg.com/media/FmEMVa1WIAIK71s?format=jpg&name=large OF THE RUSSIAN FEDERATION order 06 January 2023 Moscow №o 8 On restricting the departure of citizens Of the Russian Federation, subject to conscription for mobilization From January 9 , 2023 from 00 : 00 to the following Borderline The departments of the FSB of Russia should ensure the restriction of travel outside the territory of the Russian Federation of citizens who have a certificate of readiness for military service in categories "A", "B" and "C": 1. PU FSB of Russia in the Chelyabinsk region; areas; 2. PU FSB of Russia in the Trans-Baikal Territory; 3. PU of the FSB of Russia in the Chechen Republic; 4. PU FSB of Russia in the Khabarovsk Territory and the Jewish Autonomous 5. PU FSB of Russia in St. Petersburg and Leningrad region; 6. PU FSB of Russia in the Omsk region; 7. PU FSB of Russia in the Saratov and Samara regions; 8. PU of the FSB of Russia for the Republic of North Ossetia-Alania; 9. PU FSB of Russia in the Republic of Tyva; 10. PU FSB of Russia in the Pskov region; 11. PU FSB of Russia in the Orenburg region; 12. The Federal Security Service of Russia for the Western Arctic region; 13. PU of the FSB of Russia in the Karachay-Cherkess Republic; 14. PU of the FSB of Russia in the Kurgan and Tyumen regions; 15. PU FSB of Russia in the Republic of Crimea; 16. PU of the FSB of Russia in the Kabardino-Balkar Republic; 17. PU FSB of Russia in the Republic of Karelia; 18. PU of the FSB of Russia in the Kaliningrad region; 19. The Defense Industry of the FSB of Russia in the Domodedovo MAP; 20. PU FSB of Russia in the Volgograd region; 21. PU FSB of Russia in the Republic of Buryatia; 22. PU FSB of Russia in the Bryansk region; 23. PU FSB of Russia in the Smolensk region; |
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Posted: 1/10/2023 6:36:15 AM EDT
[#41]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By spydercomonkey: Thats one of the other takeaways I've had - Frag Grenades being super important. Numerous videos have shown rifle fights being finished - decisively - only when frag grenades enter the picture. I wonder if this will result in any further study of 'optimal' grenade design? For example, is it better to have a bigger grenade with more bang, or a smaller grenade that can be thrown further / more accurately, and more can be carried? 5-7x rifle mags is pretty standard, but whats the optimal grenade loadout? https://i.imgur.com/ppGQxHF.jpg Yes. Excellent points. Wars are won by logistics and arty (precision MLRS now days) but trenches are won by lunatics with grenades. And someone always has to take the trenches. Either we perfected the grenade tech in the 70's or just let it stagnate as a tool. I would think there are some new designs that work better. In my time in the Army, grenade training was never a priority (I was a 12B and 11B and 95B in DS1 but never in combat). It always felt like it was "just for fun" since they would never trust us with live grenades. |
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Posted: 1/10/2023 6:45:56 AM EDT
[#42]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By Jack67: This was my take. The whole “US backed” was a pretty successful Russian disinfo campaign they started once the shooting started and post-facto. To the degree US “hopes and prayers” are backing, it’s true. But as far as the whole CIA-orchestrated BS, it just didn’t happen. It was very clearly a popular uprising against the corrupt oligarchs and Yanukovych. Yanukovych had suddenly, unexpectedly, and very suspiciously, pivoted away from a widely-popular political and trade agreement w/the EU. This seriously crossed the line in the people’s view and launched the Maidan protests. The US was sitting back and trying to figure out what was going on, not masterminding the revolution. Shortly after the revolution, Russian-backed Burisima started paying the Bidens a lot of money. US support for Ukrainian independence from Moscow and anti-corruption and efforts then disappeared and US policy became one of basic indifference. Linkage? IDK. Fact? Yes. ETA: I know most all regular contributors know this, but there are readers/lurkers and revisiting key topics for them doesn’t hurt. Good of gentlemanf. to recap, I just dogpiled on for depth. iirc John McCain was there agitating for a move away from Russia early on but I never heard much from him after the protests turned ugly. It's still shocking to me that even after Russia invaded in 2014 FBHO and Xiden only sent blankets and MRE's (probably expired). Trump, apparently not part of the $cam was the first to send weapons but he was more concerned with DNC sponsored grift and corruption in Ukraine rather than Russian ambitions. It's truly terrible what has happened to Ukraine. All of this could have been prevented. Ukraine got fucked hard by the US electorate electing VERY wrong politicians. |
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Posted: 1/10/2023 6:49:50 AM EDT
[#43]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By Prime:
The Biden Administration isn’t in a hurry for victory because this is a political winner for them. I just hope they don’t think they can extend this war into 2024’s election. |
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Posted: 1/10/2023 6:51:05 AM EDT
[Last Edit: sq40]
[#44]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By ITCHY-FINGER: Yes. Excellent points. Wars are won by logistics and arty (precision MLRS now days) but trenches are won by lunatics with grenades. And someone always has to take the trenches. Either we perfected the grenade tech in the 70's or just let it stagnate as a tool. I would think there are some new designs that work better. In my time in the Army, grenade training was never a priority (I was a 12B and 11B and 95B in DS1 but never in combat). It always felt like it was "just for fun" since they would never trust us with live grenades. Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By ITCHY-FINGER: Originally Posted By spydercomonkey: Thats one of the other takeaways I've had - Frag Grenades being super important. Numerous videos have shown rifle fights being finished - decisively - only when frag grenades enter the picture. I wonder if this will result in any further study of 'optimal' grenade design? For example, is it better to have a bigger grenade with more bang, or a smaller grenade that can be thrown further / more accurately, and more can be carried? 5-7x rifle mags is pretty standard, but whats the optimal grenade loadout? https://i.imgur.com/ppGQxHF.jpg Yes. Excellent points. Wars are won by logistics and arty (precision MLRS now days) but trenches are won by lunatics with grenades. And someone always has to take the trenches. Either we perfected the grenade tech in the 70's or just let it stagnate as a tool. I would think there are some new designs that work better. In my time in the Army, grenade training was never a priority (I was a 12B and 11B and 95B in DS1 but never in combat). It always felt like it was "just for fun" since they would never trust us with live grenades. 40mm launched drone smart-grenades are being developed.  Attached File |
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Posted: 1/10/2023 6:56:39 AM EDT
[#45]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By spydercomonkey: Many of the grenade fragments are tiny, weighing 1-3gr (a BB gun .177 BB is 4.5gr). So kinda like being hit with a steel grain of sand - but flying 5,000fps+. Distance greatly effects lethality; I recall reading a grenade brochure where at 2.5m the frags were defeating IIIA armor + 2mm aluminum, while at 5m most of the frags were not defeating 2mm AL (ie 2-3 penetrations but 10+ frags hitting the sheet.) Distance also hugely effected the number of impacts per that same grenade brochure (wish I could find it.) At 2.5m it was like 20+ penetration vs 2 penetrations at 5m. I haven't seen a ballistics gel test of what these frags do, but given how tiny they are its understandable that they're not instant kills or even reliably lethal. So long as they result in the soldier calling it a day and not fighting though thats a success. I think this is mostly by design and why we dont use the cast iron "pineapple" grenades from WWII/Korea. Much fewer fragments that go much further than the grenade could be thrown. Modern designs using coiled wire or tiny "BB's" for frag is so light as you stated that after a few meters distance they are unlikely to wound. But it's a feature not a bug so you could stand in the open and throw a grenade far enough to avoid the frag. There is also the concept of "offensive grenades" that have no frag since an attacker would have less cover, .vs defensive that has frag and is designed to be thrown from cover. Not sure if this is still a thing. At the live grenade range at Leonard Wood, there were windows in the bunker so we could watch each other throw grenades and watch them detonate. The windows had a few little nicks, kinda like from gravel on an old car windshield, but nothing serious. We could also hear the little frag pieces landing on the roof. Sounded like light rain. I bet we could/should improve on the grenade tech. Maybe increase frag kill radius to maybe 10M although this may be lethal to weak armed millennials. |
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Posted: 1/10/2023 6:58:44 AM EDT
[#46]
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Posted: 1/10/2023 7:09:35 AM EDT
[#47]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By Jack67: This was my take. The whole “US backed” was a pretty successful Russian disinfo campaign they started once the shooting started and post-facto. To the degree US “hopes and prayers” are backing, it’s true. But as far as the whole CIA-orchestrated BS, it just didn’t happen. It was very clearly a popular uprising against the corrupt oligarchs and Yanukovych. Yanukovych had suddenly, unexpectedly, and very suspiciously, pivoted away from a widely-popular political and trade agreement w/the EU. This seriously crossed the line in the people’s view and launched the Maidan protests. The US was sitting back and trying to figure out what was going on, not masterminding the revolution. Shortly after the revolution, Russian-backed Burisima started paying the Bidens a lot of money. US support for Ukrainian independence from Moscow and anti-corruption and efforts then disappeared and US policy became one of basic indifference. Linkage? IDK. Fact? Yes. ETA: I know most all regular contributors know this, but there are readers/lurkers and revisiting key topics for them doesn’t hurt. Good of gentlemanf. to recap, I just dogpiled on for depth. Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By Jack67: Originally Posted By gentlemanfarmer: There wasn’t much us support. A few public speeches and BS but the idea that the US had any involvement in the Maidan in BS. Ukraine was a backwater with few us diplos and even fewer spies. We only stepped with tv takes once Russian SF and proxies starting smoking protestors. Even then it was just words from 8000 miles away. This was my take. The whole “US backed” was a pretty successful Russian disinfo campaign they started once the shooting started and post-facto. To the degree US “hopes and prayers” are backing, it’s true. But as far as the whole CIA-orchestrated BS, it just didn’t happen. It was very clearly a popular uprising against the corrupt oligarchs and Yanukovych. Yanukovych had suddenly, unexpectedly, and very suspiciously, pivoted away from a widely-popular political and trade agreement w/the EU. This seriously crossed the line in the people’s view and launched the Maidan protests. The US was sitting back and trying to figure out what was going on, not masterminding the revolution. Shortly after the revolution, Russian-backed Burisima started paying the Bidens a lot of money. US support for Ukrainian independence from Moscow and anti-corruption and efforts then disappeared and US policy became one of basic indifference. Linkage? IDK. Fact? Yes. ETA: I know most all regular contributors know this, but there are readers/lurkers and revisiting key topics for them doesn’t hurt. Good of gentlemanf. to recap, I just dogpiled on for depth. So Euromaaiden was the only color revolution the CIA was not involved in? |
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Posted: 1/10/2023 7:15:06 AM EDT
[#48]
China is officially distancing itself from Russia, and calling Ukraine to win the war;
https://www.ft.com/content/e592033b-9e34-4e3d-ae53-17fa34c16009 The starting point for Xi’s diplomatic reset is a re-evaluation in Beijing about the benefits of its close relationship with Moscow. China now perceives a likelihood that Russia will fail to prevail against Ukraine and emerge from the conflict a “minor power”, much diminished economically and diplomatically on the world stage, according to Chinese officials. In addition, for all the public professions of bilateral amity, in private some Chinese officials express at least a measure of mistrust towards Putin himself. ___ “Putin is crazy,” says one Chinese official, who declined to be identified. “The invasion decision was made by a very small group of people. China shouldn’t simply follow Russia.” ___ From a diplomatic perspective, China’s main aim is to improve relations with some countries in the west, after a period which has at times left Beijing feeling uncomfortably isolated. The focus is on ties with Europe, which have been badly damaged by China’s support for its partner Russia throughout Moscow’s war against Ukraine. ___ As it seeks to repair ties with European powers, Beijing is insisting that its European counterparts agree to repeat a “no decoupling” mantra — marking a clear difference with Washington, which is seeking to limit US commercial ties with China in certain areas, particularly with regard to sensitive technologies. “China has realised that it has antagonised too many countries at the same time, particularly among developed countries which still today are its main trade and economic partners,” says Jean-Pierre Cabestan, a China expert at Hong Kong Baptist University. “So it is trying very hard to reach out to the EU and key European nations — Germany, France, Italy and Spain — as well as America’s Asian allies, such as Japan and South Korea and US partners such as Vietnam.” The EU is China’s biggest trade partner and Beijing runs a huge trade surplus with the bloc. Similarly, several of Europe’s leading companies rank among China’s biggest foreign investors. |
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Posted: 1/10/2023 7:27:19 AM EDT
[#49]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By Ryan_Scott: It’s almost like not that long after the Russians hired the vice presidents son and US policy changed. I wonder if Putin revealing the extent of the Biden Admin compromise is the real "nuke option". If Putin dropped the dime then Xiden may really open up the spigots of aid, although impeachment would be around the corner. Who would go first, Xiden or Putin. I'm sure China would be pissed if Xiden got exposed...But Xiden could be outed as a KGB sleeper agent from the 80's and flee to Moscow and the democrats would still vote for him in 2024 in absentia. |
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Posted: 1/10/2023 7:34:43 AM EDT
[Last Edit: ITCHY-FINGER]
[#50]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By R0N: So Euromaaiden was the only color revolution the CIA was not involved in? Involved or orchestrated. Maybe sent some $$ to the organizers to print leaflets? I dont know. There were many MANY thousands of Ukrainians camped out for months protesting in the cold, then got shot and killed by snipers but still they persevered. It was organic. The people believed in it. Ray Epps was not there urging on the crowd. My wife wanted to buy our daughter a puppy. I told her ok but you pay and do everything. I was "involved" in buying a puppy. edit: Welcome back R0N. Even though we "may" disagree on some points I value you looking in on us from time to time and I hope you comment also. |
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