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Posted: 2/8/2022 10:07:26 AM EDT
[Last Edit: HIPPO]
[#1]
Putin wants to break nato. Putin wants to carve up if not outright take over Ukraine. He’d love the Baltics back too I’m sure.
Daylight between Germany, France, USA, and the rest of allied Europe only helps him and the rodina. That’s a bigger win than an open land war in Ukraine. Macron and those around him have signaled that they want to be more in control of their security than existing alliances. Le pen has gone further right from that position… Olaf is saying the diplomatic things, but the new post-Merkel gov’t has seemingly been owned by our boi Putin. Weakening nato and degrading the standing and resolve of the USA seem like they are up for grabs. Likely that Ukraine will fall to Russia a piece at a time by hook or by crook over the next few years … unless Putin is removed or has his hands cut off by a color revolution. I’m not buying any de-escalation talk becoming a reality any time soon. Hope to be proven wrong. |
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Posted: 2/8/2022 10:35:51 AM EDT
[#2]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By rca2222: If they give him water for Crimea and recognize the independence of the so called breakaway regions, he'll pick up his toys and go home. They who? Only Ukrainian government can unblock water for Crimea and that'll be the end of that government. Speaking of unrecognized Eastern Ukraine "republics", I strongly doubt Putin is interested in their independence. Their integration into Ukraine proper when Ukraine is forced to spend big bucks to subsidize and rebuild this region and 1.5 million pro Russian residents influence Ukrainian politics is a much better deal for Putin. |
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Posted: 2/8/2022 10:38:05 AM EDT
[#3]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By HIPPO: Putin wants to break nato. Putin wants to carve up if not outright take over Ukraine. He’d love the Baltics back too I’m sure. Daylight between Germany, France, USA, and the rest of allied Europe only helps him and the rodina. That’s a bigger win than an open land war in Ukraine. Macron and those around him have signaled that they want to be more in control of their security than existing alliances. Le pen has gone further right from that position… Olaf is saying the diplomatic things, but the new post-Merkel gov’t has seemingly been owned by our boi Putin. Weakening nato and degrading the standing and resolve of the USA seem like they are up for grabs. Likely that Ukraine will fall to Russia a piece at a time by hook or by crook over the next few years … unless Putin is removed or has his hands cut off by a color revolution. I’m not buying any de-escalation talk becoming a reality any time soon. Hope to be proven wrong. I agree with you that Putin would love to break up NATO - that has been the Kremlin's never ending goal (and that includes Gorbachev before and after "glasnost"). I do NOT agree with you that Ukraine will fall in the next few years due to Russian-instigated internal strife and political meddling BUT I agree he will continue those types of operations and likely expand Donbass operation if he doesn't just openly occupy it in an invasion. I hope this all de-escalates as well - my family has been thorough enough shit because of Russia for hundreds of years. |
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Posted: 2/8/2022 10:52:25 AM EDT
[#4]
So what do the odds makers say about the invasion now? News tards seem to think Marcon might have talked Putin off the ledge. I think Putin is still going to go in but that's just me.
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Posted: 2/8/2022 11:14:19 AM EDT
[Last Edit: BerettaGuy]
[#6]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By voodochild: So what do the odds makers say about the invasion now? News tards seem to think Marcon might have talked Putin off the ledge. I think Putin is still going to go in but that's just me. Well, if Macron is thinking that part of the "separatist"-occupied Donbass (Donetsk and Luhansk) are on the table for recognition, then he already caved to Putin. (Putin and Macron discuss proposals to recognize authorities in non-government-controlled parts of Ukraine’s Donbas ). If this is correct, is Macron ready to give up and recognize NW France the separatist Breton nationalism movement in the Brittany region of France? Or the Basque separatist section of SW France? |
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Posted: 2/8/2022 11:22:30 AM EDT
[#7]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By voodochild: So what do the odds makers say about the invasion now? News tards seem to think Marcon might have talked Putin off the ledge. I think Putin is still going to go in but that's just me. I doubt Macron's blowie was commensurable enough |
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Posted: 2/8/2022 11:25:16 AM EDT
[Last Edit: BerettaGuy]
[#8]
Ukrainian Snipers on the Front-Line: Why the US Army is Adopting Their Experience (This story, and other military-related stories like it are in the daily news links I post, but I have doubts that many here are reading them.) |
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Posted: 2/8/2022 11:26:59 AM EDT
[#10]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By BerettaGuy: Ukrainian Snipers on the Front-Line: Why the US Army is Adopting Their Experience (This story, and other military-related stories like it are in the daily news links I post, but I have doubts that many here are reading them.) I hope this leads to more affordable US made trench periscopes being made..... 
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Posted: 2/8/2022 12:03:11 PM EDT
[#12]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By BerettaGuy: Invasion, Stock, and Barrel: Ukraine’s Personal Arms Market is Booming https://static.nv.ua/shared/system/Article/posters/002/449/740/900x450/0f2ad38b50b32492dcd607403a185efd.jpg?q=85&stamp=20220204175748&f=webp Ruslan Rokhov, 35, from Kyiv, has purchased Diamondback riffle for self-defense (Photo:Natalia Kravchuk/ НВ) 6 February, 12:57 By New Voice of Ukraine News If you applied for a gun permit this January, you deserve a free pizza at Pizza Veterano,” the owner of Pizza Veterano, Leonid Ostaltsev, the owner of the well-known veteran-established pizzeria in Kyiv, wrote on his Facebook page. His restaurant is running a promotion for a free pizza for new firearm owners from Feb. 2 to Feb. 4. Ostaltsev says this is his way of supporting other Ukrainians who rushed out to purchase weapons in light of a massive Russian military buildup on Ukraine’s borders. RELATED STORY: Former world boxing champion Wladimir Klitschko has joined the Kyiv brigade of the Territorial Defense Force of Ukraine Demand for firearms has recently skyrocketed in Ukraine, local arms experts told NV, though they’re not cheap - with the usual price hovering at about three average monthly salaries - approximately $1,900. That price doesn’t even take into account the cost of a firearms permit, which is necessary to legally purchase one. However, despite the high costs, Ukrainians are still investing in their personal safety. Owning your own firearm is also a requirement to join the Territorial Defense Force, which has been established to serve as a ‘home guard’ in case of all-out war. However, Ukrainians aren’t waiting for one to start, instead, they’ve taken matters into their own hands and are already actively buying rifles, to give themselves time to go through the necessary training. https://static.nv.ua/shared/system/MediaPhoto/images/000/219/534/big_portrait/7649603c74f7e8909027aca2dae23122.png?q=85&stamp=20220204180404&f=webp Kyivans attend territorial defense training / Фото: АFP According to the data provided by the Ukrainian Arms Owners Association, Ukrainians buy around 70,000 guns a year. Experts are expecting a much higher figure this year. At the moment, there are almost 1.5 million firearms in circulation, reports the Interior Ministry, but that number is bound to soar, given the unprecedented demand. “Sales are unequivocally on the rise,” the CEO of the Zbroyar arms company, Serhii Horban, told NV. “We would like the figures to continue growing, but not because of a looming invasion…We expect the civilian arms market to keep growing in the future.” A Zbroyar rifle is the weapon of choice for the 52-year-old mother of three, Maryana Zhaglo, who recently made headlines with her purchase. Mariana told The Times that she had bought the gun to join the Territorial Defense Forces. “It turned out that Territorial Defense Forces are quite open to women recruits,” Zhaglo told NV. “I’ve been acquiring news skills for the last two years. That’s how it all began.” The thorny path to gun ownership The first step to gun ownership is to save around 50,000 Ukrainian hryvnias (a little under $2,000). Then, a citizen can apply for permission purchase a firearm, which needs to be registered with law enforcement authorities. “It takes about a month to get permission to purchase a gun,” said new gun owner, 33-year-old Oleksandr Pechalov. “Then you need to buy the weapon together with a safe. Afterwards, you take your gun purchase permit to the authorities. A month later you can collect your gun storage permit.” Pechalov has been regularly training with the 130th battalion of the Kyiv Territorial Defense Force since last spring. In autumn, he bought a .223 caliber Zbroyar Z-15 rifle worth around 50,000 Ukrainian hryvnias ($1,778.39 at current exchange rates). Pechalov is now using his rifle to work on his combat and marksmanship skills. Read also: RELATED STORY: Kyiv resident feels ‘much safer’ after joining Territorial Defense Force The exact nature of this newly found demand for firearms is constantly changing. There are those who prefer to buy Ukrainian-made weapons, while others are fans of foreign-manufactured rifles. “The demand has definitely evolved in the light of the looming Russian invasion,” says Zbroyar’s Horban. Zbroyar’s most popular models are the Z15 and Z9 carbines, though the Z9 is the more affordable option as it takes pistol caliber rounds and needs cheaper cartridges. This demand for firearms has spread beyond Ukrainians concerned with a potential invasion, or looking to join the ranks of the Territorial Defense Forces, and if the current threat passes, then Ukraine may find itself in the midst of a personal defense weapon renaissance. For now, Ukrainian legislation still restricts the market - Ukrainian civilians can typically only own non-lethal and hunting weapons [NOTE: MSRs with "hi-cap" mags and suppressors are considered hunting weapons, Ukraine's government uses the word "hunting" in the same way BATFE uses the term "sporting"]- the category that Zbroyar’s offerings fall into. Handguns, submachine guns, and other popular categories of firearms are still out of the question. Bachelor’s in Self-Defense Of course, just owning a rifle and knowing where the shoot bit is is far from all that’s needed to be able to use the weapon in combat. Firearm experts note the need to participate in regular trainings and drills, as marksmanship skills are likely to degrade if not polished. Center-A, a security training center based in central Kyiv, is offering courses and trainings for gun owners, and have reported a dramatic increase in client numbers over the past months. “In the last month and a half we’ve started up to ten new groups with eight people each,” said Center-A CEO Roman Zembitsky. “The new participants are learning to use non-lethal pistols, as well as rifled and smooth-bore guns. We offer courses where we teach the basic skills for gun usage, including tactical skills.” A basic gun training course is composed of 5 to 9 classes, depending on the category, and can cost up 900 dollars. Having completed the beginner’s course, you can then go on to do three more advanced-level courses, with ten classes each. Given the current situation, there is also public demand for first aid courses, which Center-A also offers. The number of people wishing to become gun owners is constantly growing and it boost the development of the weapon market. Ukrainian shops offer a wide choice of guns, cartridges and other equipment. Since the personal arms market has hardly been a historically dynamic one for Ukraine, the current demand has led to greater variety in gun stores across the country. The current boom is reminiscent of 2014, the year when Russia first invaded Ukraine, explains weapon expert Taras Oliynyk. “However, there’s a much wider selection now available in shops. The target audience are middle-class people who can afford to own a rifle.” Oliynyk says that the cheapest option is a smooth-bore hunting rifle, that can cost up to 6,000 Ukrainian hryvnias (around $200). Civilian carbines such as the AKM and AR-15 are more pricey, but also a lot more effective. “All civilian firearms in Ukraine are classified as hunting weapons,” said Oliynyk. “This is mostly a formality, but when you apply for a gun purchase permit, you have to fill in ‘hunting’ rather than ‘self-defense’ or ‘defending your country’. Bear that in mind if you want to get a permit without any issues,” adds Oliynyk, though he notes that actually going on a hunt is entirely optional. ADDITIONAL LINKS: IBIS Ukrainian gun store chain (Beautiful stores which can rival Cabela's or Bass Pro Shops) - MSR Page, "hi-cap" magazine page, suppressor page . IBIS YOUTUBE Channel - POF Rifle review:  https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gNJNJr9TylMI'd like to see the official numbers of those actually training because I have a feeling that would be very small. Just looking at that crowd in Kiev isn't very impressive, considering the city population and reported danger. A typical conversation I constantly have where I live: Me: What are you going to do if Russia attacks? Some responses: I'll fight Me: With what? Some responses: With a gun Me: Do you have a gun? Some responses: No Me: Do you have training? Some responses: No Me: Then how are you going to fight? Some responses - just look at me with blank stare Sadly, these "some responses" are the best answers I'm getting. But I'm in Lviv, not in an active war zone which the vast majority think will stay that way. |
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Posted: 2/8/2022 12:07:30 PM EDT
[#13]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By Tboy: I'd like to see the official numbers of those actually training because I have a feeling that would be very small. Just looking at that crowd in Kiev isn't very impressive, considering the city population and reported danger. A typical conversation I constantly have where I live: Me: What are you going to do if Russia attacks? Some responses: I'll fight Me: With what? Some responses: With a gun Me: Do you have a gun? Some responses: No Me: Do you have training? Some responses: No Me: Then how are you going to fight? Some responses - just look at me with blank stare Sadly, these "some responses" are the best answers I'm getting. But I'm in Lviv, not in an active war zone which the vast majority think will stay that way. Not too far off from the responses you'd get stateside if you ask about the Boogie down 
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Posted: 2/8/2022 12:12:37 PM EDT
[#14]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By LoBrau: Nobody in this thread has made any indication that they in particular or Americans in general are "pushing" for a war between Ukraine and Russia. Discussing the facts about how Russia is by all appearances "pushing" for such a war is not an indication of agreement and support. Nor will burying one's head in the sand to the aspect of significant massed forces on your borders effectively stop what's coming if Putin so chooses. How has the US made this drag on for seven years as you claim? Look at my sentence before that. There has been a "ceasefire" for many years, allowing Russia to move more troops inside the country while not stopping them. In my opinion, Russia never wanted a decisive victory but was more interested in destabilizing Ukraine for years to come. It destroyed their economy and prevented them from joining NATO. Ukrainians aren't the type to take the fight to the enemy but just sit and wait to get attacked, again, and again. I never understood all the NATO symbols in Kiev so just chalk it up to wishful thinking. |
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Posted: 2/8/2022 12:15:46 PM EDT
[#15]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By Charging_Handle:
https://www.ft.com/content/4e39ea22-9981-4afb-8302-1055cd865e10 I believe this thing may be starting to wind down. They'll throw Putin a few crumbs to make him look like he's getting some minor concessions from the west so he can save face. And Putin will end up not invading, which he may not really be in much a of position to do anyway. The weather for the immediate future looks terrible, with well above freezing daytime temperatures and rain in the forecast, which make for enough Ukrainian mud to bog down anything. It also seems there are some cracks emerging in the Russian home front among military leaders who aren't overly crazy about the idea of launching an invasion of Ukraine. The exchange rate is going down if that's an indicator. I'm still converting to $$$$ and pulling out of the bank just to be safe. |
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Posted: 2/8/2022 12:18:05 PM EDT
[#16]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By rca2222: It may be that the troops and equipment in Belarus were never intended to be used. I don't think Putin ever planned on taking more than areas in the south. If they give him water for Crimea and recognize the independence of the so called breakaway regions, he'll pick up his toys and go home. Any mechanism that would delay consideration for NATO membership would seal the deal. He has goals but I don't think they include getting bogged down invading Ukraine. That's the views I'm seeing from various folks here (like myself) but Ukrainians are known to be unrealistically optimistic. |
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Posted: 2/8/2022 12:18:29 PM EDT
[#17]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By Tboy: In my opinion, Russia never wanted a decisive victory but was more interested in destabilizing Ukraine for years to come. It destroyed their economy and prevented them from joining NATO. Yes. And they achieved that objective in 2014. That objective remains "achieved" to this day. So then what's all this talk/promises/demands about Ukraine being prevented from joining NATO? Macron negotiating with Putin reminds me of "Diehard" "Hans...Bubby!" |
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Posted: 2/8/2022 12:24:11 PM EDT
[#18]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By Greyswandir: Not too far off from the responses you'd get stateside if you ask about the Boogie down Thankfully I'm not a domestic terrorist so all the US government & foreign agencies monitoring me know I'm completely harmless. |
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Posted: 2/8/2022 12:28:19 PM EDT
[#19]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By Cincinnatus: Yes. And they achieved that objective in 2014. That objective remains "achieved" to this day. So then what's all this talk/promises/demands about Ukraine being prevented from joining NATO? Macron negotiating with Putin reminds me of "Diehard" "Hans...Bubby!" Sadly, the biggest impression that I'm getting from the locals is that they aren't expecting Russia to go anywhere soon, just occupy parts of their country indefinitely which many will accept because it doesn't affect their daily lives. Eastern Ukraine hasn't been a big tourist destination for Ukrainians for many years. This is one of the reasons for me not moving to Odessa (yes, I spelled it wrong). |
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Posted: 2/8/2022 12:43:02 PM EDT
[#20]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By Charging_Handle:
https://www.ft.com/content/4e39ea22-9981-4afb-8302-1055cd865e10 I believe this thing may be starting to wind down. They'll throw Putin a few crumbs to make him look like he's getting some minor concessions from the west so he can save face. And Putin will end up not invading, which he may not really be in much a of position to do anyway. The weather for the immediate future looks terrible, with well above freezing daytime temperatures and rain in the forecast, which make for enough Ukrainian mud to bog down anything. It also seems there are some cracks emerging in the Russian home front among military leaders who aren't overly crazy about the idea of launching an invasion of Ukraine. The quotes probably should be around "new" instead of "military initiatives". Depending on how you define "new", Putin may have agreed to not change anything he's currently doing. |
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Posted: 2/8/2022 12:53:41 PM EDT
[#21]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By rca2222: For one, it wouldn't make sense for him to stop troop movement or start withdrawals if he's trying to gain concessions. He wouldn't be getting the attention he is now if he hadn't done what he's done so far. There's been analysis posted in this thread showing that it really isn't costing him as much as people suggest. I think he underestimated the resolve of NATO, the EU, UK, and US in terms of their unwillingness to agree to his grandiose demands. Now he has to either invade or hope for some tasty crumbs that he can sell as a minor victory. He knows that an invasion would end badly politically, economically, militarily, and personally, so in a way his back may be against the wall. In the end we're all speculating. Maybe the thread needs a poll and a few pmag side bets. |
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Posted: 2/8/2022 1:06:18 PM EDT
[Last Edit: SoCalExile]
[#22]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By winddummy82: putin doesn't want concessions. why would he take concessions when he can take the whole fucking country? deja vu crimea 2014 just wait until olympics are over. where do you guys come up with concessions bs? There are vids of Russian troops in Donbass out there and they're hilarious if not a little infuriating from an infantry perspective. I'm talking about a bunched-up column of troops bebopping down a road to an assault and getting fucked by a flank before their lone tank runs off and leaves with the troops having no clue what to do. Then there's an assault across an open field bunched up behind BTRs that get killed when a Ukrainian MBT shows up, leaving the Russians to drag their wounded buddies back bitching about how jacked up the plan was and how they're attacking the wrong spot. Worth the watch to understand the historical basis for Russia's ability to bullshit themselves and everyone else:  The T-34 is not as good as you think it is |
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USA
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Posted: 2/8/2022 1:07:44 PM EDT
[Last Edit: HIPPO]
[#23]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By BerettaGuy: I agree with you that Putin would love to break up NATO - that has been the Kremlin's never ending goal (and that includes Gorbachev before and after "glasnost"). I do NOT agree with you that Ukraine will fall in the next few years due to Russian-instigated internal strife and political meddling BUT I agree he will continue those types of operations and likely expand Donbass operation if he doesn't just openly occupy it in an invasion. I hope this all de-escalates as well - my family has been thorough enough shit because of Russia for hundreds of years. I’m left with two questions right now. 1. How does Ukraine break the Russian hold and threat of force dangling over their heads? (Hence my statement about Ukraine falling over the coming years…). 2. How is Russian aggression, particularly in Europe, going to get checked and fixed? (Current deterrence and shaping activities right now don’t seem to be working if we take this build-up and the flexing of military might even half-way seriously…). Conflict seems like a structural certainty unless Putin can be convinced otherwise or gets replaced. |
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Posted: 2/8/2022 1:10:09 PM EDT
[#24]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By Rustler: Which picture? Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By Rustler: Originally Posted By pivoproseem: Someone needs to tell Ruslan Rokhov he has his scope mount backwards and not fully mounted on the receiver. Which picture? The one of Ruslan Rokhov  |
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Posted: 2/8/2022 1:15:26 PM EDT
[Last Edit: CPT_CAVEMAN]
[#25]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By Cincinnatus: Yes. And they achieved that objective in 2014. That objective remains "achieved" to this day. So then what's all this talk/promises/demands about Ukraine being prevented from joining NATO? Macron negotiating with Putin reminds me of "Diehard" "Hans...Bubby!" Was The Ukraine included in these talks? If they weren't, whatever horseshit he talked might be meaningless Or whatever |
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Posted: 2/8/2022 1:23:06 PM EDT
[#26]
The is how much the Russians suck (NSFW):
 Failed To Load Title  Failed Attack Of Russian Terrorists On Ukrainian Armed Forces. (English subtitles) |
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IA, USA
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Posted: 2/8/2022 1:26:28 PM EDT
[Last Edit: CTAC]
[#27]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By HDLS: The one of Ruslan Rokhov https://www.ar15.com/media/mediaFiles/367483/Screen_Shot_2022-02-08_at_9_08_43_AM-2271495.png If he's getting training....which evolution do they explain mounting scopes? |
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Posted: 2/8/2022 2:03:30 PM EDT
[#28]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By CTAC: If he's getting training....which evolution do they explain mounting scopes? Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By CTAC: Originally Posted By HDLS: The one of Ruslan Rokhov https://www.ar15.com/media/mediaFiles/367483/Screen_Shot_2022-02-08_at_9_08_43_AM-2271495.png If he's getting training....which evolution do they explain mounting scopes? RIFF It's from an article about the personal weapons market booming. It's right in the headline above the picture. And from the article itself: "...Of course, just owning a rifle and knowing where the shoot bit is is far from all that’s needed to be able to use the weapon in combat..." |
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Posted: 2/8/2022 2:04:45 PM EDT
[#29]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By Cincinnatus: Of the list of Putin demands, which ones do you think NATO and the US will offer as a concession? Keeping in mind the cost/benefit, Putin has deployed the MAJORITY of all the Russian ground forces, to the Ukraine border. Also, the fact that you aren’t “on the ground” makes your opinion about Putin’s intent or the purpose and disposition of Russian forces no less valid. Quite the opposite. Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By Cincinnatus: Originally Posted By rca2222: Originally Posted By Tboy: Originally Posted By rca2222: If it happens perspectives will certainly change, crow will be eaten, and some of our Ukraine accounts will go silent for all the wrong reasons. Curious if the same if nothing happens. I find it comical that I'm being challenged on what I'm saying because I'm not ethnic enough and don't speak the various languages. I hope everything cools off and things blow over but expect Putin to walk away with a "win" by gaining various concessions. Ukraine will be the ultimate loser here, especially because I think that other powers (that don't care about UA) will do the negotiating on their behalf. Either way, the average Ukrainian will go on, living their daily life, hating whatever government is in power, wanting to leave the country for a better place. It's a crap shoot but I came into this knowing full well what can/will happen here. Hence the reason I picked Western Ukraine! My uninformed, not on the ground, no expertise, gut feeling based opinion is that this will end with concessions that are not in Ukraine's best interest. Biden will declare that he stared Corn Putin down, the rest of the world will realize that we're punks, and the global power realignment will accelerate. But I certainly could be wrong. Of the list of Putin demands, which ones do you think NATO and the US will offer as a concession? Keeping in mind the cost/benefit, Putin has deployed the MAJORITY of all the Russian ground forces, to the Ukraine border. Also, the fact that you aren’t “on the ground” makes your opinion about Putin’s intent or the purpose and disposition of Russian forces no less valid. Quite the opposite. No nato entry for Ukraine. That's about it, but that plus other concessions could be enough. |
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Posted: 2/8/2022 2:07:13 PM EDT
[#30]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By wtfboombrb: Ukraine would have worked best as a neutral country, but the west blew it by pushing an allegiance to the west. It’s kind of chicken/egg. Ukraine sees Russia invade Georgia. Ukraine pivots to the west because of concern of Russian agression. Then they get a Putin puppet as a president in a campaign financed by the Kremlin. When Ukraine boots out Putin’s stooge and continues to pivot west, Russia invades. Now Russia threatens again. |
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Posted: 2/8/2022 2:38:55 PM EDT
[#31]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By Tboy: Now you're being delusional. WAR is big business. Just because I don't agree with the hive doesn't mean that I support Russia. There are many factual things that RT says about Biden that I agree with. Does that make me a Russian troll? The fact that you know what RT is even saying does not speak well to your credibility. |
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UKR
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Posted: 2/8/2022 2:49:56 PM EDT
[#32]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By Tboy: I'd like to see the official numbers of those actually training because I have a feeling that would be very small. Just looking at that crowd in Kiev isn't very impressive, considering the city population and reported danger. A typical conversation I constantly have where I live: Me: What are you going to do if Russia attacks? Some responses: I'll fight Me: With what? Some responses: With a gun Me: Do you have a gun? Some responses: No Me: Do you have training? Some responses: No Me: Then how are you going to fight? Some responses - just look at me with blank stare Sadly, these "some responses" are the best answers I'm getting. But I'm in Lviv, not in an active war zone which the vast majority think will stay that way. Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By Tboy: Originally Posted By BerettaGuy: Invasion, Stock, and Barrel: Ukraine’s Personal Arms Market is Booming https://static.nv.ua/shared/system/Article/posters/002/449/740/900x450/0f2ad38b50b32492dcd607403a185efd.jpg?q=85&stamp=20220204175748&f=webp Ruslan Rokhov, 35, from Kyiv, has purchased Diamondback riffle for self-defense (Photo:Natalia Kravchuk/ НВ) 6 February, 12:57 By New Voice of Ukraine News If you applied for a gun permit this January, you deserve a free pizza at Pizza Veterano,” the owner of Pizza Veterano, Leonid Ostaltsev, the owner of the well-known veteran-established pizzeria in Kyiv, wrote on his Facebook page. His restaurant is running a promotion for a free pizza for new firearm owners from Feb. 2 to Feb. 4. Ostaltsev says this is his way of supporting other Ukrainians who rushed out to purchase weapons in light of a massive Russian military buildup on Ukraine’s borders. RELATED STORY: Former world boxing champion Wladimir Klitschko has joined the Kyiv brigade of the Territorial Defense Force of Ukraine Demand for firearms has recently skyrocketed in Ukraine, local arms experts told NV, though they’re not cheap - with the usual price hovering at about three average monthly salaries - approximately $1,900. That price doesn’t even take into account the cost of a firearms permit, which is necessary to legally purchase one. However, despite the high costs, Ukrainians are still investing in their personal safety. Owning your own firearm is also a requirement to join the Territorial Defense Force, which has been established to serve as a ‘home guard’ in case of all-out war. However, Ukrainians aren’t waiting for one to start, instead, they’ve taken matters into their own hands and are already actively buying rifles, to give themselves time to go through the necessary training. https://static.nv.ua/shared/system/MediaPhoto/images/000/219/534/big_portrait/7649603c74f7e8909027aca2dae23122.png?q=85&stamp=20220204180404&f=webp Kyivans attend territorial defense training / Фото: АFP According to the data provided by the Ukrainian Arms Owners Association, Ukrainians buy around 70,000 guns a year. Experts are expecting a much higher figure this year. At the moment, there are almost 1.5 million firearms in circulation, reports the Interior Ministry, but that number is bound to soar, given the unprecedented demand. “Sales are unequivocally on the rise,” the CEO of the Zbroyar arms company, Serhii Horban, told NV. “We would like the figures to continue growing, but not because of a looming invasion…We expect the civilian arms market to keep growing in the future.” A Zbroyar rifle is the weapon of choice for the 52-year-old mother of three, Maryana Zhaglo, who recently made headlines with her purchase. Mariana told The Times that she had bought the gun to join the Territorial Defense Forces. “It turned out that Territorial Defense Forces are quite open to women recruits,” Zhaglo told NV. “I’ve been acquiring news skills for the last two years. That’s how it all began.” The thorny path to gun ownership The first step to gun ownership is to save around 50,000 Ukrainian hryvnias (a little under $2,000). Then, a citizen can apply for permission purchase a firearm, which needs to be registered with law enforcement authorities. “It takes about a month to get permission to purchase a gun,” said new gun owner, 33-year-old Oleksandr Pechalov. “Then you need to buy the weapon together with a safe. Afterwards, you take your gun purchase permit to the authorities. A month later you can collect your gun storage permit.” Pechalov has been regularly training with the 130th battalion of the Kyiv Territorial Defense Force since last spring. In autumn, he bought a .223 caliber Zbroyar Z-15 rifle worth around 50,000 Ukrainian hryvnias ($1,778.39 at current exchange rates). Pechalov is now using his rifle to work on his combat and marksmanship skills. Read also: RELATED STORY: Kyiv resident feels ‘much safer’ after joining Territorial Defense Force The exact nature of this newly found demand for firearms is constantly changing. There are those who prefer to buy Ukrainian-made weapons, while others are fans of foreign-manufactured rifles. “The demand has definitely evolved in the light of the looming Russian invasion,” says Zbroyar’s Horban. Zbroyar’s most popular models are the Z15 and Z9 carbines, though the Z9 is the more affordable option as it takes pistol caliber rounds and needs cheaper cartridges. This demand for firearms has spread beyond Ukrainians concerned with a potential invasion, or looking to join the ranks of the Territorial Defense Forces, and if the current threat passes, then Ukraine may find itself in the midst of a personal defense weapon renaissance. For now, Ukrainian legislation still restricts the market - Ukrainian civilians can typically only own non-lethal and hunting weapons [NOTE: MSRs with "hi-cap" mags and suppressors are considered hunting weapons, Ukraine's government uses the word "hunting" in the same way BATFE uses the term "sporting"]- the category that Zbroyar’s offerings fall into. Handguns, submachine guns, and other popular categories of firearms are still out of the question. Bachelor’s in Self-Defense Of course, just owning a rifle and knowing where the shoot bit is is far from all that’s needed to be able to use the weapon in combat. Firearm experts note the need to participate in regular trainings and drills, as marksmanship skills are likely to degrade if not polished. Center-A, a security training center based in central Kyiv, is offering courses and trainings for gun owners, and have reported a dramatic increase in client numbers over the past months. “In the last month and a half we’ve started up to ten new groups with eight people each,” said Center-A CEO Roman Zembitsky. “The new participants are learning to use non-lethal pistols, as well as rifled and smooth-bore guns. We offer courses where we teach the basic skills for gun usage, including tactical skills.” A basic gun training course is composed of 5 to 9 classes, depending on the category, and can cost up 900 dollars. Having completed the beginner’s course, you can then go on to do three more advanced-level courses, with ten classes each. Given the current situation, there is also public demand for first aid courses, which Center-A also offers. The number of people wishing to become gun owners is constantly growing and it boost the development of the weapon market. Ukrainian shops offer a wide choice of guns, cartridges and other equipment. Since the personal arms market has hardly been a historically dynamic one for Ukraine, the current demand has led to greater variety in gun stores across the country. The current boom is reminiscent of 2014, the year when Russia first invaded Ukraine, explains weapon expert Taras Oliynyk. “However, there’s a much wider selection now available in shops. The target audience are middle-class people who can afford to own a rifle.” Oliynyk says that the cheapest option is a smooth-bore hunting rifle, that can cost up to 6,000 Ukrainian hryvnias (around $200). Civilian carbines such as the AKM and AR-15 are more pricey, but also a lot more effective. “All civilian firearms in Ukraine are classified as hunting weapons,” said Oliynyk. “This is mostly a formality, but when you apply for a gun purchase permit, you have to fill in ‘hunting’ rather than ‘self-defense’ or ‘defending your country’. Bear that in mind if you want to get a permit without any issues,” adds Oliynyk, though he notes that actually going on a hunt is entirely optional. ADDITIONAL LINKS: IBIS Ukrainian gun store chain (Beautiful stores which can rival Cabela's or Bass Pro Shops) - MSR Page, "hi-cap" magazine page, suppressor page . IBIS YOUTUBE Channel - POF Rifle review: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gNJNJr9TylMI'd like to see the official numbers of those actually training because I have a feeling that would be very small. Just looking at that crowd in Kiev isn't very impressive, considering the city population and reported danger. A typical conversation I constantly have where I live: Me: What are you going to do if Russia attacks? Some responses: I'll fight Me: With what? Some responses: With a gun Me: Do you have a gun? Some responses: No Me: Do you have training? Some responses: No Me: Then how are you going to fight? Some responses - just look at me with blank stare Sadly, these "some responses" are the best answers I'm getting. But I'm in Lviv, not in an active war zone which the vast majority think will stay that way. I see none of that in Central Ukraine. It's probably the crowd you are hanging out with. There are hundreds of veterans of this war living here who own personal firearms and are willing to use them. I see lots of boys doing their duty and serving in the military. There are several monuments dedicated to the heroes who paid the ultimate sacrifice all around my city. Ukrainians are a proud strong people. |
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Posted: 2/8/2022 3:07:14 PM EDT
[#33]
Not enough are talking about the future of Russia and why Russia is behaving this way and behaving this way now.
It lost 1 million people in the past year. The last year it had population growth was 1991 and the only reason it isn’t even worse now is because the Muslim minorities are reproducing considerably faster than Slavs. Putin tries to hype up the church to keep focus off the fact that more in Russia go to mosques for services than churches. The only nation in Europe that wants to buy Russian gas by choice is Germany. The movement to build reactors severely threatens Russia economically in the next 20 years as does more immediately Azeri and Algerian gas as is the situation intertwined with Russia’s need to keep Syria unstable in order to block Saudi and Qatari pipelines. A “color revolution” is not especially likely in Russia but there exists a threat of it that Putin can’t run the risk of. I think the protests against Lukšenko and in Kazakhstan frightened him on top of the success of the Maiden revolt. He needs do to something to gin up nationalism and absolutely anything he can do to present the idea that any ill Russia has is caused by outsiders is in his favor. However,he risks overplaying his hand if Russians don’t actually believe they need to go to war against Ukrainians. I think that is the calculus now. As an aside,what could have prevented much of this is if the West had not fucked up so badly by failing to invest in Eastern Europe,especially Ukraine, and leaving the Chinese to their own devices but oh well,the US listened to Kissinger and it’s water under the bridge…or maybe it’s water held back by the 3 Gorges Dam🤷🏼♂️ |
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Posted: 2/8/2022 3:13:55 PM EDT
[#34]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By Cincinnatus: Yeah, but…why? What exactly does Putin want that France has to offer? Whatever it is that Putin wants, HE has determined that placing the MAJORITY of ALL Russian ground forces on the borders of Ukraine -will achieve that desired end state. France has this “thing” and can deliver it? Really? What is it? I have no idea, and I have no idea if they will be successful. I am referring to an attempt by France to speak separately to Russia, apart from US leadership. |
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Posted: 2/8/2022 3:57:45 PM EDT
[#35]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By M-1975: The is how much the Russians suck (NSFW): https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XmozdOVU21M https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=p72KRQwYeMoAdvance up a hardball with open fields on either side without flank protection. Check! Advance across open ground and stop in the open. Check! But I think the Russians are better now. How much better? Who knows? |
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IA, USA
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Posted: 2/8/2022 4:01:49 PM EDT
[#36]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By HDLS: RIFF It's from an article about the personal weapons market booming. It's right in the headline above the picture. And from the article itself: "...Of course, just owning a rifle and knowing where the shoot bit is is far from all that’s needed to be able to use the weapon in combat..." Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By HDLS: Originally Posted By CTAC: Originally Posted By HDLS: The one of Ruslan Rokhov https://www.ar15.com/media/mediaFiles/367483/Screen_Shot_2022-02-08_at_9_08_43_AM-2271495.png If he's getting training....which evolution do they explain mounting scopes? RIFF It's from an article about the personal weapons market booming. It's right in the headline above the picture. And from the article itself: "...Of course, just owning a rifle and knowing where the shoot bit is is far from all that’s needed to be able to use the weapon in combat..." Should relax....it was a joke. |
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Posted: 2/8/2022 4:59:35 PM EDT
[Last Edit: BerettaGuy]
[#37]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By HIPPO: I’m left with two questions right now. 1. How does Ukraine break the Russian hold and threat of force dangling over their heads? (Hence my statement about Ukraine falling over the coming years…). 2. How is Russian aggression, particularly in Europe, going to get checked and fixed? (Current deterrence and shaping activities right now don’t seem to be working if we take this build-up and the flexing of military might even half-way seriously…). Conflict seems like a structural certainty unless Putin can be convinced otherwise or gets replaced. Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By HIPPO: Originally Posted By BerettaGuy: I agree with you that Putin would love to break up NATO - that has been the Kremlin's never ending goal (and that includes Gorbachev before and after "glasnost"). I do NOT agree with you that Ukraine will fall in the next few years due to Russian-instigated internal strife and political meddling BUT I agree he will continue those types of operations and likely expand Donbass operation if he doesn't just openly occupy it in an invasion. I hope this all de-escalates as well - my family has been thorough enough shit because of Russia for hundreds of years. I’m left with two questions right now. 1. How does Ukraine break the Russian hold and threat of force dangling over their heads? (Hence my statement about Ukraine falling over the coming years…). 2. How is Russian aggression, particularly in Europe, going to get checked and fixed? (Current deterrence and shaping activities right now don’t seem to be working if we take this build-up and the flexing of military might even half-way seriously…). Conflict seems like a structural certainty unless Putin can be convinced otherwise or gets replaced. Well, Ukraine needs to continue the nationalistic unity which skyrocketed after 2014 and after the ouster of hundreds of paid-off Kremlin agents with in their government. As far as Putin, as I explained in the past, he is NOT doing all of this because he is afraid of NATO attacking Russia, he is doing this because he wants Ukraine. If Putin dies, then there may be a change but who knows who would come in after him. As far as Europe, many countries have increased their military capabilities in the last 20 years and that needs to continue - Ukraine especially. Even Sweden is a country not to ignore which has a tier 1 defense industry with Bofors/Saab. Sanctions and pushing Russia aside, especially in gas/oil supplying, would do a great deal - the Russian economy has been in the toilet for years yet Putin's wealth has increased. If he can go that would be a great start. However, the Russian-Chinese military cooperation would increase by quite a bit as it has been over the past 10 years. Both countries can make alliances in South America, Africa, and elsewhere by buying them off, influence, and corruption or behind the scenes threats and this is something that has been ongoing. I don't see this all going away but I hope it does. I think that at minimum, Putin will roll in the occupied parts of the Donbass and formally occupy it (after a false flag), take parts of some other eastern oblasts which are flat farmland/plains areas (but he can't go in too far and hold it), and possibly connect Crimea with Russia by land. Aside from that, Russia can't take an occupy large cities and urban areas. Despite what Kremlin bullshit news puts out, Putin has no real support in Ukraine. |
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Posted: 2/8/2022 5:10:35 PM EDT
[#38]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By outofbattery: Not enough are talking about the future of Russia and why Russia is behaving this way and behaving this way now. It lost 1 million people in the past year. The last year it had population growth was 1991 and the only reason it isn’t even worse now is because the Muslim minorities are reproducing considerably faster than Slavs. Putin tries to hype up the church to keep focus off the fact that more in Russia go to mosques for services than churches. The only nation in Europe that wants to buy Russian gas by choice is Germany. The movement to build reactors severely threatens Russia economically in the next 20 years as does more immediately Azeri and Algerian gas as is the situation intertwined with Russia’s need to keep Syria unstable in order to block Saudi and Qatari pipelines. A “color revolution” is not especially likely in Russia but there exists a threat of it that Putin can’t run the risk of. I think the protests against Lukšenko and in Kazakhstan frightened him on top of the success of the Maiden revolt. He needs do to something to gin up nationalism and absolutely anything he can do to present the idea that any ill Russia has is caused by outsiders is in his favor. However,he risks overplaying his hand if Russians don’t actually believe they need to go to war against Ukrainians. I think that is the calculus now. As an aside,what could have prevented much of this is if the West had not fucked up so badly by failing to invest in Eastern Europe,especially Ukraine, and leaving the Chinese to their own devices but oh well,the US listened to Kissinger and it’s water under the bridge…or maybe it’s water held back by the 3 Gorges Dam🤷🏼♂️ Very good assessment. |
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Posted: 2/8/2022 5:28:53 PM EDT
[#39]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By WildBill375: I see none of that in Central Ukraine. It's probably the crowd you are hanging out with. There are hundreds of veterans of this war living here who own personal firearms and are willing to use them. I see lots of boys doing their duty and serving in the military. There are several monuments dedicated to the heroes who paid the ultimate sacrifice all around my city. Ukrainians are a proud strong people. |
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Posted: 2/8/2022 5:34:20 PM EDT
[#40]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By Alex9661: They who? Only Ukrainian government can unblock water for Crimea and that'll be the end of that government. Speaking of unrecognized Eastern Ukraine "republics", I strongly doubt Putin is interested in their independence. Their integration into Ukraine proper when Ukraine is forced to spend big bucks to subsidize and rebuild this region and 1.5 million pro Russian residents influence Ukrainian politics is a much better deal for Putin. Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By Alex9661: Originally Posted By rca2222: If they give him water for Crimea and recognize the independence of the so called breakaway regions, he'll pick up his toys and go home. They who? Only Ukrainian government can unblock water for Crimea and that'll be the end of that government. Speaking of unrecognized Eastern Ukraine "republics", I strongly doubt Putin is interested in their independence. Their integration into Ukraine proper when Ukraine is forced to spend big bucks to subsidize and rebuild this region and 1.5 million pro Russian residents influence Ukrainian politics is a much better deal for Putin. |
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Posted: 2/8/2022 5:34:25 PM EDT
[Last Edit: BerettaGuy]
[#41]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By trapsh00ter99: Yea, as the crow flies you guys are 500+ miles apart. It's not surprising you are seeing different reactions. One is 50 miles from Poland, and one is <100 miles from the front lines. Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By trapsh00ter99: Originally Posted By WildBill375: I see none of that in Central Ukraine. It's probably the crowd you are hanging out with. There are hundreds of veterans of this war living here who own personal firearms and are willing to use them. I see lots of boys doing their duty and serving in the military. There are several monuments dedicated to the heroes who paid the ultimate sacrifice all around my city. Ukrainians are a proud strong people. Lviv has always been one of the most patriotic cities in Ukraine. Any political map will always show that. And I agree with WildBill's assessment of central Ukraine. |
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Posted: 2/8/2022 5:39:19 PM EDT
[#42]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By Wreckshooter: The fact that you know what RT is even saying does not speak well to your credibility. Linked from ARFCOM over the years. So where does that put the rest of the members? I've never posted or linked anything to RT (to my knowledge). |
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Posted: 2/8/2022 5:41:22 PM EDT
[#43]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By winddummy82: putin doesn't want concessions. why would he take concessions when he can take the whole fucking country? deja vu crimea 2014 just wait until olympics are over. where do you guys come up with concessions bs? Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By winddummy82: Originally Posted By rca2222: For one, it wouldn't make sense for him to stop troop movement or start withdrawals if he's trying to gain concessions. He wouldn't be getting the attention he is now if he hadn't done what he's done so far. There's been analysis posted in this thread showing that it really isn't costing him as much as people suggest. I think he underestimated the resolve of NATO, the EU, UK, and US in terms of their unwillingness to agree to his grandiose demands. Now he has to either invade or hope for some tasty crumbs that he can sell as a minor victory. He knows that an invasion would end badly politically, economically, militarily, and personally, so in a way his back may be against the wall. In the end we're all speculating. Maybe the thread needs a poll and a few pmag side bets. Where do you come up with the take the whole country BS? What would he have to gain, and how would he hold it once taken? He wants something but it is very unlikely that it's all of Ukraine. |
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Posted: 2/8/2022 5:41:38 PM EDT
[Last Edit: Tboy]
[#44]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By WildBill375: I see none of that in Central Ukraine. It's probably the crowd you are hanging out with. There are hundreds of veterans of this war living here who own personal firearms and are willing to use them. I see lots of boys doing their duty and serving in the military. There are several monuments dedicated to the heroes who paid the ultimate sacrifice all around my city. Ukrainians are a proud strong people. I'm in the "safe" zone where many people feel safe and refugees fled to so there probably are different perspectives here. I think labeling them STRONG is an overstatement but I have met some muscular girls here. |
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Posted: 2/8/2022 5:48:37 PM EDT
[#45]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By trapsh00ter99: Yea, as the crow flies you guys are 500+ miles apart. It's not surprising you are seeing different reactions. One is 50 miles from Poland, and one is <100 miles from the front lines. Exactly. And also different mindset due to being "more" ethnic Ukrainian because they speak Ukrainian first (I swear they lack a diverse gene pool here because so many look alike to me). I've had Easterners tell me how the locals have treated them when they arrived, telling them how much they knew better. That's one of the reasons I ask folks where they're from. Some folks get really upset if they hear Russian spoken, others could give a care. |
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NM, USA
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Posted: 2/8/2022 5:51:03 PM EDT
[#46]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By Wreckshooter: The fact that you know what RT is even saying does not speak well to your credibility. It's no worse than the New Yorker or NYT. Just a different faction's organ. |
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Posted: 2/8/2022 5:54:18 PM EDT
[#47]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By GreyHat: It's no worse than the New Yorker or NYT. Just a different faction's organ. Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By GreyHat: Originally Posted By Wreckshooter: The fact that you know what RT is even saying does not speak well to your credibility. It's no worse than the New Yorker or NYT. Just a different faction's organ. Not correct especially in regard to to the Ukrainian issue. The Kremlin funds and uses RT, Sputnik, etc. as their mouthpiece for propaganda. |
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Posted: 2/8/2022 6:01:44 PM EDT
[#48]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By BerettaGuy: Lviv has always been one of the most patriotic cities in Ukraine. Any political map will always show that. And I agree with WildBill's assessment of central Ukraine. Actually, it's been one of the MOST NATIONALIST cities in Ukraine. But you've never been here so you don't know how much those red/black flags bother other Ukrainians. You won't see these flags displayed as much in other parts of Ukraine but when I've driven into the Carpathians I'd see the Red/Black flags as predominant, if not more so, in some areas. Even government buildings had the red/black flag on them, next to the national flag. The first time I visited Lviv, I tried to join a rally with these guys, not knowing who they were, and my wife became upset and wanted to avoid them while refusing to explain what was going on. She's far from Pro Russian even though she grew up next to the Russian border (she actually told me she HATED Russians when we first met even though she had never met one and that was before 2014). I've seen these guys show up waiving their flags and I could see it being intimidating (thankfully Ukrainians are more talk than fight), especially at a local rugby match with Poland. Aussie friend told me how much the Poles hate these guys but that's another history lesson. So, what I have learned over the years Pro Nationalists do not always equal Pro Ukrainian. I'm still having difficulty getting my head around this because this tends to be a very sore subject when talking with the locals. I try to learn as much as I can about the locals and their culture but I try to avoid local politics since I have no business butting my foreign head into their personal business. |
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Posted: 2/8/2022 6:05:43 PM EDT
[#49]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By BerettaGuy: Not correct especially in regard to to the Ukrainian issue. The Kremlin funds and uses RT, Sputnik, etc. as their mouthpiece for propaganda. Who was more honest when reporting the RUSSIA RUSSIA RUSSIA stories about Trump? RT actually had some valid points even though they had different motives than me. It is good to get different perspectives to information to make an educated decision. |
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Posted: 2/8/2022 6:12:35 PM EDT
[Last Edit: BerettaGuy]
[#50]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By Tboy: Actually, it's been one of the MOST NATIONALIST cities in Ukraine. But you've never been here so you don't know how much those red/black flags bother other Ukrainians. You won't see these flags displayed as much in other parts of Ukraine but when I've driven into the Carpathians I'd see the Red/Black flags as predominant, if not more so, in some areas. Even government buildings had the red/black flag on them, next to the national flag. The first time I visited Lviv, I tried to join a rally with these guys, not knowing who they were, and my wife became upset and wanted to avoid them while refusing to explain what was going on. She's far from Pro Russian even though she grew up next to the Russian border (she actually told me she HATED Russians when we first met even though she had never met one and that was before 2014). I've seen these guys show up waiving their flags and I could see it being intimidating (thankfully Ukrainians are more talk than fight), especially at a local rugby match with Poland. Aussie friend told me how much the Poles hate these guys but that's another history lesson. So, what I have learned over the years Pro Nationalists do not always equal Pro Ukrainian. I'm still having difficulty getting my head around this because this tends to be a very sore subject when talking with the locals. I try to learn as much as I can about the locals and their culture but I try to avoid local politics since I have no business butting my foreign head into their personal business. Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By Tboy: Originally Posted By BerettaGuy: Lviv has always been one of the most patriotic cities in Ukraine. Any political map will always show that. And I agree with WildBill's assessment of central Ukraine. Actually, it's been one of the MOST NATIONALIST cities in Ukraine. But you've never been here so you don't know how much those red/black flags bother other Ukrainians. You won't see these flags displayed as much in other parts of Ukraine but when I've driven into the Carpathians I'd see the Red/Black flags as predominant, if not more so, in some areas. Even government buildings had the red/black flag on them, next to the national flag. The first time I visited Lviv, I tried to join a rally with these guys, not knowing who they were, and my wife became upset and wanted to avoid them while refusing to explain what was going on. She's far from Pro Russian even though she grew up next to the Russian border (she actually told me she HATED Russians when we first met even though she had never met one and that was before 2014). I've seen these guys show up waiving their flags and I could see it being intimidating (thankfully Ukrainians are more talk than fight), especially at a local rugby match with Poland. Aussie friend told me how much the Poles hate these guys but that's another history lesson. So, what I have learned over the years Pro Nationalists do not always equal Pro Ukrainian. I'm still having difficulty getting my head around this because this tends to be a very sore subject when talking with the locals. I try to learn as much as I can about the locals and their culture but I try to avoid local politics since I have no business butting my foreign head into their personal business. Bother what kind of Ukrainians? The ones you hang out with? Black and red have been part of western Ukrainian history and culture for hundreds of years but you wouldn't know that due to your lack of understanding of Ukrainian history. The fact that you ARE THERE is no confirmation that you know anything about Ukrainian history and would be the same as me walking up to an illegal Mexican in California and expecting him to recite the Federalist Papers and tell me about the life of Patrick Henry because he is here. A lot that comes out of your mouth is derogatory about Ukrainians just like your crack that you would'nt say that Ukrainians are a strong people. You were demeaning about the Ukrainian Insurgent Army's effectiveness, you state that all of the Ukrainians you know are basically unpatriotic and won't fight (which I'm starting to believe that is who YOU associate with, bunch of losers), you made the ridiculous statement that western Ukrainians don't really care about the Holodomor genocide of between 7-12 million Ukrainians when the western part of the country is where the most hard-core nationalists have ALWAYS lived. Your reasoning that western Ukrainians don't care about it because they were under Polish rule during the genocide is laughable. You also don't seem to understand that western Ukraine switched between German and Russian rule back and forth during WWII. Most of my Ukrainian friends I went to 8 years of Ukrainian parochial school with in the 1970s had families (like mine) who were from western Ukraine and almost all of them had posters or paintings hanging somewhere (especially at their grandparents' houses - mine did also) honoring those who were killed in the Holodomor. The church I went to even had a sculpture depicting it. You may be living there, but you are getting some BS fed, have distorted way of "seeing" things, OR you are here posting for another purpose. |
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