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Link Posted: 5/30/2023 1:15:06 PM EDT
[#1]
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Originally Posted By AlmightyTallest:
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Let the shadow hit the floor , let the shadow hit the floor
Link Posted: 5/30/2023 1:19:40 PM EDT
[#2]
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Originally Posted By stgdz:

I thought stingers were no longer in production and big army was pushing for a new updated manpads.


In all honesty seeing how stingers perform I don't buy it.  Granted the design could use some updating for new components but a complete and total redesign isn't necessary.  But revalidations would be necessary and I can see that's where they can argue if we are doing val testing we may as well get a new design.
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Originally Posted By stgdz:
Originally Posted By AlmightyTallest:
Reloads!


I thought stingers were no longer in production and big army was pushing for a new updated manpads.


In all honesty seeing how stingers perform I don't buy it.  Granted the design could use some updating for new components but a complete and total redesign isn't necessary.  But revalidations would be necessary and I can see that's where they can argue if we are doing val testing we may as well get a new design.


This might help explain.

https://breakingdefense.com/2023/03/stinger-replacement-included-in-armys-fy24-budget-request-service-official-says/

https://www.prnewswire.com/news-releases/raytheon-missiles--defense-awarded-624-million-for-stinger-missile-production-301556968.html

"We're aligned with the U.S. Army on a plan that ensures we fulfill our current foreign military sale order, while replenishing Stingers provided to Ukraine and accelerating production," said Wes Kremer, president of Raytheon Missiles & Defense. "The funding will be used to enhance Stinger's producibility in an effort to meet the urgent need for replenishment."  





   “The current Stinger inventory is in decline,” the service wrote. “The Army plans to begin design, development, and test of a replacement missile in FY23 leading to the production of 10,000 M-SHORAD Inc 3 missiles beginning in FY27.”

While Army officials may have tweaked that timeline and plan since releasing the solicitation in April 2022, broadly speaking they are looking for a soldier portable, all-up round more lethal than the current Stinger missile (with proximity fuse capability). That future missile will be launched from the Stinger Vehicle Universal Launcher to target rotary-wing and fixed-wing aircraft, and Group 2-3 (medium and large) unmanned aircraft systems.

As Army officials like Bush brief lawmakers on their Stinger replacement plan, they are also moving ahead with plans to refill the depleted stockpiles, in part, through a refurbishment effort.

Before Russia invaded Ukraine in February 2022, the Army and Marine Corps had not bought Stinger20924 systems for decades, and the Raytheon production line served only a single international customer. But a month into the invasion, the weapon had proven so useful on the battlefield that members of Congress were beginning a push for the Army to create a next-gen replacement, while demanding information on why stockpiles could not be rapidly increased.  

Ultimately, because Stinger is made with a number of components that are no longer in production, there is a finite number of Stingers that could be manufactured with the existing parts available. The Army’s April 2022 solicitation, for example, notes that the Stinger- Reprogrammable Microprocessor (RMP) will become obsolete this year and Stinger Block I is undergoing a service life extension.

Bush said the service has not formulated a refurbishment plan with Raytheon to refill its Stinger stockpiles until a next-generation weapon is fielded.

“We found some ways to buy time in the near term, including, for example, refurbishing older Stinger missiles,” Bush said today. “We think we’ll get at least 1,200 good new Stingers out of that effort, and save a lot of money doing it.”

“That buys us time to make sure Stinger stocks are healthy enough to give us time to get the new program underway,” he added.  
Link Posted: 5/30/2023 1:20:47 PM EDT
[#3]
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Originally Posted By MelGibsonEnthusiast:

If they actually do go ahead with full scale mobilization, that should be all the justification needed to send massive quantities of DPICMs. Russian escalation should be met with escalation on our end. Plus, if the Russians go full retard like this, the Ukrainians are going to need to kill a lot of shit very quickly across the front.
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Originally Posted By MelGibsonEnthusiast:
Originally Posted By Prime:
I don’t agree with this, but here it is.




If they actually do go ahead with full scale mobilization, that should be all the justification needed to send massive quantities of DPICMs. Russian escalation should be met with escalation on our end. Plus, if the Russians go full retard like this, the Ukrainians are going to need to kill a lot of shit very quickly across the front.


We should have been sending DPICM ages ago.  There are literally hundreds of tons of cluster munitions in storage waiting for us to pay to destroy them.  Spend a bit of the cash destroying them to ship them to Ukraine.  It would likely save us a bunch of cash.
Link Posted: 5/30/2023 1:23:35 PM EDT
[#4]
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Originally Posted By AlmightyTallest:
Perhaps I am losing track, but don't these guys want to join NATO as well??

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Part of it is they fully expect Biden to leave them to twist in the wind like W did if they get involved. It’s a fair point, though I think there is more to it.
Link Posted: 5/30/2023 1:23:59 PM EDT
[#5]
Link Posted: 5/30/2023 1:24:10 PM EDT
[Last Edit: Lightning_P38] [#6]
Link Posted: 5/30/2023 1:26:44 PM EDT
[#7]
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Originally Posted By Dracster:

I wonder when we're going to see Patriot missile canisters rigged up to S-300 TELs. That would make some eyes go cross.
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Originally Posted By Dracster:
Originally Posted By AlmightyTallest:
Reloads!


I wonder when we're going to see Patriot missile canisters rigged up to S-300 TELs. That would make some eyes go cross.


Once this war is over, I can't wait to see the jury rigging that was done.
Link Posted: 5/30/2023 1:28:53 PM EDT
[#8]
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Originally Posted By xd675:


We should have been sending DPICM ages ago.  There are literally hundreds of tons of cluster munitions in storage waiting for us to pay to destroy them.  Spend a bit of the cash destroying them to ship them to Ukraine.  It would likely save us a bunch of cash.
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Originally Posted By xd675:
Originally Posted By MelGibsonEnthusiast:
Originally Posted By Prime:
I don’t agree with this, but here it is.




If they actually do go ahead with full scale mobilization, that should be all the justification needed to send massive quantities of DPICMs. Russian escalation should be met with escalation on our end. Plus, if the Russians go full retard like this, the Ukrainians are going to need to kill a lot of shit very quickly across the front.


We should have been sending DPICM ages ago.  There are literally hundreds of tons of cluster munitions in storage waiting for us to pay to destroy them.  Spend a bit of the cash destroying them to ship them to Ukraine.  It would likely save us a bunch of cash.

Yes, absolutely. I'm of the opinion that DPICM would be far more of a Wunderwaffen than pretty much anything else we could send them. They would certainly impact the war more than 31 Abrams or even 100 Bradleys. They would be extremely useful for stopping Russian assaults dead in their tracks, suppressing objectives while Ukrainian armor advances, etc. Unfortunately, I doubt they're going to get them, almost exclusively due to political reasons. The Biden Administration likely doesn't want to send them due to UXO concerns, and if they did send them, I have no doubt that many on the right would jump at the opportunity to label Biden a baby killer.
Link Posted: 5/30/2023 1:29:54 PM EDT
[#9]
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Originally Posted By Lightning_P38:
Plus they would still end up destroyed, everybody except Russia wins
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Originally Posted By Lightning_P38:
Originally Posted By xd675:


We should have been sending DPICM ages ago.  There are literally hundreds of tons of cluster munitions in storage waiting for us to pay to destroy them.  Spend a bit of the cash destroying them to ship them to Ukraine.  It would likely save us a bunch of cash.
Plus they would still end up destroyed, everybody except Russia wins


Is UXO the concern with DPICM?
Link Posted: 5/30/2023 1:30:53 PM EDT
[#10]
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Originally Posted By MelGibsonEnthusiast:

Yes, absolutely. I'm of the opinion that DPICM would be far more of a Wunderwaffen than pretty much anything else we could send them. They would certainly impact the war more than 31 Abrams or even 100 Bradleys. They would be extremely useful for stopping Russian assaults dead in their tracks, suppressing objectives while Ukrainian armor advances, etc. Unfortunately, I doubt they're going to get them, almost exclusively due to political reasons. The Biden Administration likely doesn't want to send them due to UXO concerns, and if they did send them, I have no doubt that many on the right would jump at the opportunity to label Biden a baby killer.
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What if we totally didn't send any but they just happened to end up hitting Belgorod ? No need to worry about UXO then. Make them available at the local surplus stores.
Link Posted: 5/30/2023 1:32:57 PM EDT
[Last Edit: AlmightyTallest] [#11]

Looks like it was raining tungsten.


Link Posted: 5/30/2023 1:36:28 PM EDT
[#12]
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Originally Posted By mcantu:

No, you can see the ATGM coming in from the upper right. That's the HEAT jet blowing into and out of the tank
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Originally Posted By mcantu:
Originally Posted By belted_guns:
Originally Posted By stone-age:
Originally Posted By Lieh-tzu:
Have we done this one? Heckuva shot, is that a through-and-through of a tank??? Will not buff out.



Did anybody else see that? The tracks in the dirt were clearly visible, the 2 tracks in the ground the tank was making. When the tank got hit those tracks became white and it was like smoke from the tank went shooting down those tracks in the dirt, then it dispersed. That was bizarre.

Was that a DU hit?
Any of the knowledgeable here explain?

No, you can see the ATGM coming in from the upper right. That's the HEAT jet blowing into and out of the tank

Imagine something that goes right through a tank.
Link Posted: 5/30/2023 1:37:22 PM EDT
[#13]
Thread here.

Link Posted: 5/30/2023 1:38:02 PM EDT
[#14]
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Originally Posted By Charging_Handle:
The Turkish TFX is actually a pretty neat looking fighter, certainly a much better attempt at a 5th Generation design than anything we've seen from Russia to date.

https://www.thedrive.com/uploads/2023/03/17/TFX-turkey.jpg?auto=webp&crop=16%3A9&auto=webp&optimize=high&quality=70&width=1920

https://www.thedrive.com/uploads/2023/03/17/tf-x-head-on.jpg?auto=webp&optimize=high&quality=70&width=1440

https://www.thedrive.com/uploads/2023/03/17/tf-x-engine-rear.jpg?auto=webp&optimize=high&quality=70&width=1440

I had been under the impression that they were planning to use the EJ200 engine for these fighters, but it looks like initially they are using F110s with 29,000 lbs. thrust each. The TFX certainly reminds me of the South Korean KFX, or whatever they are calling it now, but the Turkish design actually seems more robust and refined. Unlike the KFX, the TFX actually has an internal weapons bay. That means it will still remain stealthy when in combat configuration. And as long as the design isn't too heavy, that pair of GE F110s should give it ample go-go juice.

This thing might be a decent option for Ukraine to look at buying a few years down the road, provided they don't get access into the F-35 program. A fleet of F-16s and a few of these things would give Russia a really tough time most likely, especially when combined with higher end air defense systems such as Patriot and SAMP/T.
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So they get ahold of a Revell model of the F-22 and make an airframe based on that?  It looks so.

If it's anything like my Turkish copy O/U, it will be a piece of shit.
Link Posted: 5/30/2023 1:38:22 PM EDT
[#15]
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Originally Posted By AlmightyTallest:

Looks like it was raining tungsten.


https://pbs.twimg.com/media/FxZGD_zWAAAMPzX?format=jpg&name=medium
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Blood on the door, Wrecked!
Link Posted: 5/30/2023 1:40:28 PM EDT
[#16]
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Originally Posted By Finslayer83:


Is UXO the concern with DPICM?
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Originally Posted By Finslayer83:
Originally Posted By Lightning_P38:
Originally Posted By xd675:


We should have been sending DPICM ages ago.  There are literally hundreds of tons of cluster munitions in storage waiting for us to pay to destroy them.  Spend a bit of the cash destroying them to ship them to Ukraine.  It would likely save us a bunch of cash.
Plus they would still end up destroyed, everybody except Russia wins


Is UXO the concern with DPICM?

Almost certainly, but it's a stupid concern at this point, IMO. The Donbas had already been a warzone for eight years before the invasion in February 2022, and since then, both sides have been launching copious amounts of artillery and mortar rounds at each other. There's already going to be large problems with UXO, and the Russians and to a much lesser extent the Ukrainians are already using cluster munitions. The need to stack Russians like cordwood outweighs UXO concerns at this point. Ukraine wants them, and we've got a ton that we're just waiting to destroy. Sending them DPICM would also conserve more of our stocks of regular artillery ammo and give us time to really crank production there up into the next gear. It's a no brainer.
Link Posted: 5/30/2023 1:41:32 PM EDT
[#17]
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Originally Posted By RockNwood:
Not sure of the numbers being sent but every bit helps. Suppose to have 35km range, very effective air or ground launch. And about 100,000 are in existence in dozens of countries.
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After that attack I’m not sure how many fighters you’d want engaging shit over Ukraine.  The lower cost sidewinders might help keep Ukraine from using vastly more expensive hardware killing cheap drones.
Link Posted: 5/30/2023 1:42:01 PM EDT
[#18]
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Originally Posted By m35ben:
What if we totally didn't send any but they just happened to end up hitting Belgorod ? No need to worry about UXO then. Make them available at the local surplus stores.
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Originally Posted By m35ben:
Originally Posted By MelGibsonEnthusiast:

Yes, absolutely. I'm of the opinion that DPICM would be far more of a Wunderwaffen than pretty much anything else we could send them. They would certainly impact the war more than 31 Abrams or even 100 Bradleys. They would be extremely useful for stopping Russian assaults dead in their tracks, suppressing objectives while Ukrainian armor advances, etc. Unfortunately, I doubt they're going to get them, almost exclusively due to political reasons. The Biden Administration likely doesn't want to send them due to UXO concerns, and if they did send them, I have no doubt that many on the right would jump at the opportunity to label Biden a baby killer.
What if we totally didn't send any but they just happened to end up hitting Belgorod ? No need to worry about UXO then. Make them available at the local surplus stores.

The Ukrainians just discovered massive stockpiles of DPICM in barns in Western Ukraine, just like D/LPR forces just happened to find T-72s, artillery pieces, air defense systems, etc. in the Donbas.
Link Posted: 5/30/2023 1:43:01 PM EDT
[Last Edit: AlmightyTallest] [#19]
BAE getting a plant in Ukraine.

Link Posted: 5/30/2023 1:43:07 PM EDT
[#20]
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Originally Posted By AlmightyTallest:

Looks like it was raining tungsten.


https://pbs.twimg.com/media/FxZGD_zWAAAMPzX?format=jpg&name=medium
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Link Posted: 5/30/2023 1:43:37 PM EDT
[#21]
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Originally Posted By AlmightyTallest:
Thread here.

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Wow, that is especially salty.


Original-

The stories told about the destroyed decision-making centers from Shoigu are nothing more than a PR campaign, or rather its continuation. Yesterday, after the incessant and only intensifying shelling of the Belgorod region, namely Shebekino, which had been engulfed in fire, a decision was made to hold an information warfare event. I wrote about them many times and gave examples.

After another strong arrival through the territory of the Belgorod region (this is Russia), it was necessary to shift what was being discussed on the network, because reports of a massive missile attack on Kyiv rained down. Indeed, even the mayor of Kyiv, Klitschko, confirmed the missile danger and the work of air defense. I also admit (but I didn’t see evidence) that last time one Patriot missile defense system was destroyed, but I don’t understand why such a focus of attention is given. This is a consumable item. Just because he's American, the level of coolness doesn't get any higher.

But yesterday there was no breakthrough of the enemy's air defense at all. If I'm wrong, please prove otherwise. There is no fixation of smoke that gets into the network even when shooting is prohibited. By the way, air defense breaks calmly got into the network, but arrivals, if there were any (no, it wasn’t), didn’t get there. There is also no objective control data from our side. Shoigu and his department of degenerates could not even name and publish that they were amazed, what kind of decision-making centers they are.

Because if you publish the coordinates, then satellite images will appear, proving that Shoigu is a cunt. In their bullshit, they don't bother with anything anymore. They can say absolutely any nonsense with a serious face, while in the statements of the RF Ministry of Defense, truthful information is somewhere around 5-15%. I don't exaggerate.

Next we go about the story of the next destroyed 200 tons of nationalists. Yes, I do believe. Destroy enemy soldiers (16,000 people) and tanks (400 units) in a month in a deaf defense and "staying" at the front, as much as, for example, was destroyed in more than a year in the Bakhmut direction, where a third of the Ukrainian army was pulled together. I believe. 400 tanks. Per month. Fuck. There are real clinical degenerates.

Well, and the downing of 16 planes, the fall of which is almost impossible to hide from local onlookers with phones, whether it be Russians or Ukrainians, whether it be a Russian plane or a Ukrainian one.

It’s high time to get used to the fact that if something large and serious from what happened didn’t get on the footage, then initially proceed that it didn’t happen. If they didn’t remove the knocking out of the tank, then then they remove its burnt skeleton from the quadrocopter. This is almost always done now. Especially 400, bitch, pieces. A quarter of Khakhlov tanks were destroyed in a month. Uh, damn.

And to repel tank attacks and knock out 20 tanks from a disposable grenade launcher, any little pizdabol from the subordination of the degenerate Shoigu and his drunken governor Gerasimov can.

Then a wood carving lover told about the fact that 5 drones were shot down, 3 were suppressed by electronic warfare. Well, apparently, the same pigeons from the biological laboratories crashed into residential buildings, about which it was said at the beginning of the war. Or high-rise buildings are electronic warfare. I believe. Yes, what doubts there can be at least in one of his words. And did they give you any reason to doubt it? Everything goes according to plan.

https://t.me/grey_zone/18905
Link Posted: 5/30/2023 1:44:14 PM EDT
[#22]
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Originally Posted By Capta:

Considering that Trump has already outright said he would force Ukraine to hand over territory for peace, I’m going with “Putin is more concerned with Biden, or at least the Biden admin.”
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Trump told Zelensky he would "grab him by the pussy" and make him hand over Donbas? Trump didnt say that and NO ONE is forcing Ukraine to hand over land. At this phase of the war, its all about Ukraine regaining their stolen land. Next phase will be reparations, repatriation of forcibly removed people, and finally (and hopefully) war crimes trials.

I'm shocked that at this point, all the smart people are still totally clueless about Trump and his deal brokering technique. Anyway, I SERIOUSLY DOUBT that Trump will be negotiating any deal between Ukraine and Russia or haunting your nightmares from the WH.
Link Posted: 5/30/2023 1:44:59 PM EDT
[#23]
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Originally Posted By AlmightyTallest:

Looks like it was raining tungsten.


https://pbs.twimg.com/media/FxZGD_zWAAAMPzX?format=jpg&name=medium
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That one is probably not getting fixed with a little bit of 100mph tape!
Link Posted: 5/30/2023 1:46:35 PM EDT
[#24]
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Originally Posted By MelGibsonEnthusiast:

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Originally Posted By MelGibsonEnthusiast:
Originally Posted By AlmightyTallest:

Looks like it was raining tungsten.


https://pbs.twimg.com/media/FxZGD_zWAAAMPzX?format=jpg&name=medium




THAT, is some serious Whup-ass.



CMOS  
Link Posted: 5/30/2023 1:50:22 PM EDT
[#25]
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Originally Posted By governmentman:


I keep thinking about the logistical fallout if this. Any resource concentration remotely near the front is now at risk. I imagine they are frantically trying to shift concentrations that had been outside HIMARS range that are now at risk.

The added impact is the disorganization that frantic redistribution will cause, kind of like when my wife tries to organize things and then I can't find anything.
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Originally Posted By governmentman:
Originally Posted By RockNwood:

https://www.ar15.com/media/mediaFiles/494438/IMG_1121-2834281.jpg


I keep thinking about the logistical fallout if this. Any resource concentration remotely near the front is now at risk. I imagine they are frantically trying to shift concentrations that had been outside HIMARS range that are now at risk.

The added impact is the disorganization that frantic redistribution will cause, kind of like when my wife tries to organize things and then I can't find anything.

Yeah some commentator pointed ou that introduction of HIMARS reduced their supplies at the front by a large amount because they had to use trucks to move from the further depots to the multiple points on the front. And they are short of trucks.

Now UA is racking up kills on transport trucks AND striking depots with Storm Shadow. Like you say, this could again dramatically reduce their supplies of artillery shells especially.
Link Posted: 5/30/2023 1:51:44 PM EDT
[#26]
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Originally Posted By Capta:

I’ve always been struck by the parallels between WW2 Japan and current Russia:
-starts war of aggression against a weaker neighbor only to become bogged down
-provokes wider war (although this time a proxy war) against powers with massive GDP overmatch
-expects “fighting spirit” to win against superior technology
-“The west is decadent”
-fights on well past reason
-unconcerned with casualties
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It is interesting. All I can say is that at a certain point (probably not long after the first bomb goes off) emotions take over and logic/reason is the 2nd casualty of war. And the more totalitarian/authoritarian the society, the more subject to the emotional whims of its leader(s).

Japan (like Russia) had a good plan IF their initial assessments and intel was correct: The enemy is weak, decadent, corrupt, cowardly, divided, and afraid of sacrifice and eager to make a bad deal. Both were VERY wrong.
Link Posted: 5/30/2023 1:51:58 PM EDT
[#27]




Link Posted: 5/30/2023 1:52:10 PM EDT
[#28]
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Originally Posted By AlmightyTallest:
Thread here.

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That's kind of a reason why I'm starting to think the drone attack on the Kremlin and the one last night may not have been false flags. They don't accomplish much militarily, but they do sow dissent through making the Putin regime look weak, and they drive home the reality that the SMO isn't exactly going according to plan.
Link Posted: 5/30/2023 1:52:16 PM EDT
[#29]
This is an absolute roller coaster from Prigozhin.

We publish a request from the editors of the LIFE edition and the answer:
Hello, Evgeny Viktorovich! There is information that Britain is recruiting mercenaries from North Africa and the Middle East to participate in the Ukrainian counter-offensive. In return, they offer citizenship and an impressive monetary reward.
1) Do you have such information?
2) Based on your experience, will there be demand for this announcement among the military in these regions?

Additionally, a question.
Dear Evgeny Viktorovich, how can you comment on today's news related to drones in Moscow and the region? Yesterday, Vitali Klitschko said why: “why do the people of Moscow rest?”, then the morning events took place.

We publish a comment by Evgeny Prigozhin:
“Answering questions from the editors of LIFE.
As for mercenaries from the countries of the Middle East and North Africa, I can't tell you anything. Already answered this question. I don’t know, and, in fact, there are no mercenaries there, so I don’t know what the idea is.
Now as for the drones in Moscow. Of course, I am aware and, of course, I worry about it too. As a person who understands this somewhat, I can tell you that many years ago it was necessary to deal with these programs. That we are now years behind our opponents, years, maybe decades. But in order to catch up with them, we do absolutely nothing at all - I want to emphasize this. This is me as a specialist more or less in this area, as a consumer of these problems. And now, as a citizen of the Russian Federation, I want to answer you as follows. Regarding the drones that fly over Moscow and in Moscow. Stinky creatures, what are you doing? You are cattle! Get your shit out of the offices you've been put in to defend this country. You are the Department of Defense. You didn't do a damn thing to step on. Why the fuck are you allowing these drones to fly to Moscow? The fact that they are flying to Rublyovka to your home, and to hell with it! Let your houses burn. And what do ordinary people do when drones with explosives crash into their windows? And therefore, as a citizen, I am deeply indignant that these scum sit quietly and sit on their fat assholes smeared with expensive creams. And therefore, I believe that the people have every right to ask them these questions, these bastards.
But I have already warned about this many times, but no one wants to listen. Because I'm angry and frustrating bureaucrats who have a great life."


https://t.me/Prigozhin_hat/3514

Link Posted: 5/30/2023 1:54:09 PM EDT
[#30]
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Originally Posted By DK-Prof:


Russia desperately doesn't want to admit that

A) They were partners with their good friend Hitler, when they attacked/invaded Poland in 1939.

B) When their Nazi friends turned on them, they became exactly what Ukraine is today:  A nation entirely dependent on the charity and aid from the West to defend itself from aggressive fascists.
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Very true and excellent points.
Link Posted: 5/30/2023 1:57:52 PM EDT
[#31]
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Originally Posted By ITCHY-FINGER:

Trump told Zelensky he would "grab him by the pussy" and make him hand over Donbas? Trump didnt say that and NO ONE is forcing Ukraine to hand over land. At this phase of the war, its all about Ukraine regaining their stolen land. Next phase will be reparations, repatriation of forcibly removed people, and finally (and hopefully) war crimes trials.

I'm shocked that at this point, all the smart people are still totally clueless about Trump and his deal brokering technique. Anyway, I SERIOUSLY DOUBT that Trump will be negotiating any deal between Ukraine and Russia or haunting your nightmares from the WH.
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Originally Posted By ITCHY-FINGER:
Originally Posted By Capta:

Considering that Trump has already outright said he would force Ukraine to hand over territory for peace, I’m going with “Putin is more concerned with Biden, or at least the Biden admin.”

Trump told Zelensky he would "grab him by the pussy" and make him hand over Donbas? Trump didnt say that and NO ONE is forcing Ukraine to hand over land. At this phase of the war, its all about Ukraine regaining their stolen land. Next phase will be reparations, repatriation of forcibly removed people, and finally (and hopefully) war crimes trials.

I'm shocked that at this point, all the smart people are still totally clueless about Trump and his deal brokering technique. Anyway, I SERIOUSLY DOUBT that Trump will be negotiating any deal between Ukraine and Russia or haunting your nightmares from the WH.

Idk. He might want to clarify his position because there are many here including myself who have voted for him in the past but are pretty concerned given some of his comments about where exactly he stands on Ukraine.
Link Posted: 5/30/2023 2:00:02 PM EDT
[#32]
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Originally Posted By DK-Prof:


Absolutely.  No disagreement here.

I am just pointing out that it's funny that they WERE basically Ukraine in 1941 - subject to a surprise attack by a former ally, and completely dependent on the West to supply them in order to fight effectively.
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I'm also confident that had Hitler accepted Ukraine, which welcomed the Wehrmacht with open arms as liberators from Stalin and the commies, Germany would have had a chance. Millions of Ukrainians who hated the Soviets more than anything (with good reason) would have been a huge help. Instead they were stupidly treated as enemies and turned into some of the fiercest partisans of the war (in some cases fighting BOTH the Germans AND the Soviets simultaneously).
Link Posted: 5/30/2023 2:01:00 PM EDT
[#33]
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Originally Posted By Tiberius:


Zelenskyy was what Trump tried and failed to be.
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Z was first and foremost about his nation and people and NOT about himself, his pride, or ego.
Link Posted: 5/30/2023 2:04:40 PM EDT
[#34]
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Originally Posted By Capta:

Most are probably non-flyable.  Supposedly Ukraine was down to a handful of SU-24s.
On the bright side, the damaged planes may not have been flyable.
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Originally Posted By Capta:
Originally Posted By ITCHY-FINGER:
Originally Posted By AlmightyTallest:


No other details, but this Russian report is all I have at the moment, and he has posted stuff that is very incorrect at times.

Don't know when the satellite photo was taken, but I would not be keeping the Su-24's packed together in revetments like that.




https://pbs.twimg.com/media/FxTENXAX0AAS9vK?format=jpg&name=4096x4096

If that picture is current, there are a LOT of aircraft piled up in there. Hopefully the loss of 2-5 will not effect them.

Most are probably non-flyable.  Supposedly Ukraine was down to a handful of SU-24s.
On the bright side, the damaged planes may not have been flyable.

I saw a tweet that pointed out those satellite photos showing dozens of aircraft scrunched together were old. The only date on it was a copyright date. He showed a more recent image and there were only a few aircraft scattered about the airfield.
Link Posted: 5/30/2023 2:05:19 PM EDT
[#35]
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Originally Posted By AlmightyTallest:
Thread here.

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Fucking gold.
Link Posted: 5/30/2023 2:05:56 PM EDT
[#36]
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Originally Posted By MelGibsonEnthusiast:

Almost certainly, but it's a stupid concern at this point, IMO. The Donbas had already been a warzone for eight years before the invasion in February 2022, and since then, both sides have been launching copious amounts of artillery and mortar rounds at each other. There's already going to be large problems with UXO, and the Russians and to a much lesser extent the Ukrainians are already using cluster munitions. The need to stack Russians like cordwood outweighs UXO concerns at this point. Ukraine wants them, and we've got a ton that we're just waiting to destroy. Sending them DPICM would also conserve more of our stocks of regular artillery ammo and give us time to really crank production there up into the next gear. It's a no brainer.
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It's always annoyed me that concerns for possible civilian casualties down the road, that are easily mitigated or eliminated if anyone actually cared, are far more important than soldiers surviving and winning now.  Especially countries like the FRG...seriously, the Soviets are pouring through the Fulda gap using NBC on every urban site in their path, and "oh no, don't use cluster bombs, children might run out into the tank battle and play with the bomblets".  It was always politics.
Link Posted: 5/30/2023 2:07:05 PM EDT
[#37]
Link Posted: 5/30/2023 2:07:11 PM EDT
[#38]
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Originally Posted By AlmightyTallest:

Looks like it was raining tungsten.


https://pbs.twimg.com/media/FxZGD_zWAAAMPzX?format=jpg&name=medium
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Air burst ?
Link Posted: 5/30/2023 2:07:24 PM EDT
[#39]
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Originally Posted By AlmightyTallest:
BAE getting a plant in Ukraine.

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Pretty amazing seeing bae and UK going from the back of the line to the front.
Link Posted: 5/30/2023 2:09:01 PM EDT
[#40]
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Originally Posted By ITCHY-FINGER:

I'm also confident that had Hitler accepted Ukraine, which welcomed the Wehrmacht with open arms as liberators from Stalin and the commies, Germany would have had a chance. Millions of Ukrainians who hated the Soviets more than anything (with good reason) would have been a huge help. Instead they were stupidly treated as enemies and turned into some of the fiercest partisans of the war (in some cases fighting BOTH the Germans AND the Soviets simultaneously).
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Originally Posted By ITCHY-FINGER:
Originally Posted By DK-Prof:


Absolutely.  No disagreement here.

I am just pointing out that it's funny that they WERE basically Ukraine in 1941 - subject to a surprise attack by a former ally, and completely dependent on the West to supply them in order to fight effectively.

I'm also confident that had Hitler accepted Ukraine, which welcomed the Wehrmacht with open arms as liberators from Stalin and the commies, Germany would have had a chance. Millions of Ukrainians who hated the Soviets more than anything (with good reason) would have been a huge help. Instead they were stupidly treated as enemies and turned into some of the fiercest partisans of the war (in some cases fighting BOTH the Germans AND the Soviets simultaneously).

The Nazis' treatment of peoples that had formerly been occupied by the Soviets in Eastern Europe was one of their biggest blunders. Instead of insisting on oppression, ethnic cleansing, and deportations, they should've handed them rifles and pointed them east. Even though they behaved like colossal dicks, they still got hundreds of thousands of recruits for SS divisions in Eastern Europe, which should tell you how much people hated the Soviets. They could've used much more of that manpower had they not adhered to pseudo-scientific racial views. Of course, this is all kind of a pointless discussion, because without the racism and genocidal insanity, the Germans have no desire to push eastwards in the first place.
Link Posted: 5/30/2023 2:11:21 PM EDT
[Last Edit: ITCHY-FINGER] [#41]
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Originally Posted By stgdz:

I thought stingers were no longer in production and big army was pushing for a new updated manpads.


In all honesty seeing how stingers perform I don't buy it.  Granted the design could use some updating for new components but a complete and total redesign isn't necessary.  But revalidations would be necessary and I can see that's where they can argue if we are doing val testing we may as well get a new design.
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Supposedly there is still a Stinger line operating for foreign sales. AND there is an updated version being developed.

beat
Link Posted: 5/30/2023 2:11:48 PM EDT
[#42]
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Originally Posted By Lightning_P38:
Plus they would still end up destroyed, everybody except Russia wins
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Originally Posted By Lightning_P38:
Originally Posted By xd675:


We should have been sending DPICM ages ago.  There are literally hundreds of tons of cluster munitions in storage waiting for us to pay to destroy them.  Spend a bit of the cash destroying them to ship them to Ukraine.  It would likely save us a bunch of cash.
Plus they would still end up destroyed, everybody except Russia wins
Is there really a pile of viable DPICM (and similar cluster munitions) sitting around?

Supposedly we had a million of the 155mm ones sitting around to demil, and were going to make about a third of them into practice rounds 10+ years ago .

If we had this conversation in 2014 during Putin's first bout of assholishness, maybe they could have been saved from demil/scrapping.
Link Posted: 5/30/2023 2:12:22 PM EDT
[#43]


Ukraine
FPV Racer kamikaze version




Scary thing.
Link Posted: 5/30/2023 2:12:39 PM EDT
[#44]
Link Posted: 5/30/2023 2:12:44 PM EDT
[#45]
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Originally Posted By Dracster:

I wonder when we're going to see Patriot missile canisters rigged up to S-300 TELs. That would make some eyes go cross.
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Don’t see why, the truck is the least important part.
Link Posted: 5/30/2023 2:15:17 PM EDT
[#46]
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Originally Posted By stgdz:

I thought stingers were no longer in production and big army was pushing for a new updated manpads.


In all honesty seeing how stingers perform I don't buy it.  Granted the design could use some updating for new components but a complete and total redesign isn't necessary.  But revalidations would be necessary and I can see that's where they can argue if we are doing val testing we may as well get a new design.
View Quote


There was a program to put the AIM-9 seeker on the Stinger, apparently that made it more accurate. So the sensor at least could stand an upgrade and I’m sure they have better energetics now. But they are keen to keep the same architecture so they fit the launchers so I’m not sure that the result will be anything but an incremental improvement, which is fine and I support the insistence on using the same launchers. We don’t need a dramatically improved missile, we need one cheap enough that no US Soldier or Marine fights without their coverage.
Link Posted: 5/30/2023 2:17:38 PM EDT
[#47]
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Originally Posted By Swampgrass:


Air burst ?
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Originally Posted By Swampgrass:
Originally Posted By AlmightyTallest:

Looks like it was raining tungsten.


https://pbs.twimg.com/media/FxZGD_zWAAAMPzX?format=jpg&name=medium


Air burst ?


Yes.

GMLRS Alternative Warhead Engineer & Manufacturing Development Phase Test & Evaluation


Link Posted: 5/30/2023 2:19:03 PM EDT
[#48]
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Originally Posted By AlmightyTallest:
BAE getting a plant in Ukraine.

View Quote

Obtaining EU membership will require they break up a lot of state owned corporations. Their whole defense industry is state owned, the center of corruption in Ukraine, and a hotbed of support for Russia. IMO the smart move is for Ukraine to sell their defense industry to foreign operators, with mandates and incentives to keep production and design in Ukraine. BAE would quench most of the corruption in whichever operation they bought and would have cheap labor, and for political reasons it’s likely that western nations will allow Ukrainian manufacture of parts as support for rebuilding even if they would otherwise insist the parts be made in their own nation.
Link Posted: 5/30/2023 2:19:13 PM EDT
[#49]
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By 4xGM300m:
https://i.imgur.com/6zyWy2o.jpg

Ukraine
FPV Racer kamikaze version




Scary thing.
View Quote
Are those RGO grenade bodies, sans fuses, with some "serious putty" between them to set them off?
Link Posted: 5/30/2023 2:19:19 PM EDT
[#50]
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Originally Posted By Finslayer83:


Is UXO the concern with DPICM?
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"escalation"!!! Code Pink is in charge now...
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OFFICIAL Russo-Ukrainian War (Page 4133 of 5591)
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