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Posted: 6/2/2023 1:47:21 PM EDT
[#1]
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Posted: 6/2/2023 1:48:47 PM EDT
[#2]
 
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NE, USA
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Posted: 6/2/2023 1:49:19 PM EDT
[#3]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By governmentman: My thought is still that the primary goal of the US isn't Ukrainian defense but to 'boil the bear' and deplete Russia's conventional military. Storm Shadow pushes Russia harder, but not a rapid end to the war due to limited numbers. ATACMS in quantity would allow Ukraine to methodically dismantle Russia's entire combat support infrastructure to a depth that makes pushing things out of range completely impractical. It would break Russia's ability to defend the territory they occupy, which is why it hasn't happened yet. Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By governmentman: Originally Posted By kpacman: Yeah...now that the long range cherry has been broken, I don't understand why Biden is still reluctant to provide the U.S. version. Time for ATACMS and other weapons to help level the playing field. My thought is still that the primary goal of the US isn't Ukrainian defense but to 'boil the bear' and deplete Russia's conventional military. Storm Shadow pushes Russia harder, but not a rapid end to the war due to limited numbers. ATACMS in quantity would allow Ukraine to methodically dismantle Russia's entire combat support infrastructure to a depth that makes pushing things out of range completely impractical. It would break Russia's ability to defend the territory they occupy, which is why it hasn't happened yet. This has been my fear too. I get the concept of boiling the bear, but the question is how many additional Ukrainians will die before the bear taps out. I wouldn't want to be a member of this administration if the press or historians in the future learn that this was our policy and that the conflict could have ended sooner with a bit more effort and equipment. |
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Posted: 6/2/2023 1:50:21 PM EDT
[#4]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By AlmightyTallest: https://pbs.twimg.com/media/FxoTRu6WwAEGbVP?format=jpg&name=900x900 |
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Posted: 6/2/2023 1:50:32 PM EDT
[#5]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By Charging_Handle: L-O-fucking-L! They can't staff, equip or support their current formations. Now we are supposed to believe they are going to add entire armies to this force structure this year? C'mon Russia, at least try to make your bullshit seem within the realm of possible if you wish to be taken seriously. Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By Charging_Handle: Originally Posted By Prime: https://www.ar15.com/media/mediaFiles/203719/IMG_3135-2837632.jpg https://www.m24.ru/news/bezopasnost/02062023/584062 https://www.m24.ru/news/politika/21122022/534010 L-O-fucking-L! They can't staff, equip or support their current formations. Now we are supposed to believe they are going to add entire armies to this force structure this year? C'mon Russia, at least try to make your bullshit seem within the realm of possible if you wish to be taken seriously. Mosins. Millions and millions of Mosins. Some even have bolts! |
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Posted: 6/2/2023 1:54:07 PM EDT
[Last Edit: Cpt_Kirks]
[#6]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By Prime:
"Now the Belarusian borscht resembles Russian borscht, you are in the captivity of a tyrant and a bunker grandfather," Ukrainian border guards answered the Belarusians. WARSHALL
I wonder how much Semtex is packed under that bridge? |
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Posted: 6/2/2023 1:54:58 PM EDT
[#7]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By Prime:
https://pbs.twimg.com/media/Fxm4jCWWAAIz0wy?format=jpg&name=large https://pbs.twimg.com/media/Fxm4QOBX0AEV0Qt?format=jpg&name=large https://pbs.twimg.com/media/Fxm4EagXgAEwz5u?format=jpg&name=large People brought flowers, toys, sweets and letters to the place of death of 3 people in Kyiv. On one sheet, a girl is drawn with a balloon in the form of the number 10. "Vika, I know that this (10th anniversary) will not happen, but I believe that you will be happy there," the signed picture... https://www.ar15.com/media/mediaFiles/203719/IMG_3136-2837744.jpg 📷 Olena Lytvynenko https://t.me/newspn/57466 May all fucks be upon Russia. |
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Posted: 6/2/2023 1:55:54 PM EDT
[#8]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By Charging_Handle: L-O-fucking-L! They can't staff, equip or support their current formations. Now we are supposed to believe they are going to add entire armies to this force structure this year? C'mon Russia, at least try to make your bullshit seem within the realm of possible if you wish to be taken seriously. Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By Charging_Handle: Originally Posted By Prime: https://www.ar15.com/media/mediaFiles/203719/IMG_3135-2837632.jpg https://www.m24.ru/news/bezopasnost/02062023/584062 https://www.m24.ru/news/politika/21122022/534010 L-O-fucking-L! They can't staff, equip or support their current formations. Now we are supposed to believe they are going to add entire armies to this force structure this year? C'mon Russia, at least try to make your bullshit seem within the realm of possible if you wish to be taken seriously. Headline should be: Drunk General Talks to Drunk Audience About His Fantasy Army! Audiences listened intently and then all had a great laugh at funny general. |
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Posted: 6/2/2023 1:56:45 PM EDT
[#9]
This is funny but the reality is that if the russian federation breaks up nobody is going to want Kaliningrad because it's full of russians.
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Posted: 6/2/2023 1:57:42 PM EDT
[#10]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By _disconnector_: Why is it that if a country or area is labeled the "People's Republic of X" it's always shit? Because Russia helped make it. |
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Posted: 6/2/2023 2:00:34 PM EDT
[#11]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By kncook: They intercepted the storm shadow with the target. Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By kncook: Originally Posted By HIPPO:
Cotton, baby. https://pbs.twimg.com/media/FxnJUkIaIAEP5CR?format=jpg&name=360x360 They intercepted the storm shadow with the target. I’d like to see them take out those port cranes at some point. But it sounds like they were targeting the air defense unit at the port this time around. |
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Posted: 6/2/2023 2:00:51 PM EDT
[#12]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By Auto5guy: This is funny but the reality is that if the russian federation breaks up nobody is going to want Kaliningrad because it's full of russians. https://pbs.twimg.com/media/FxlmyknXoAAGUHW?format=png&name=small |
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USA
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Posted: 6/2/2023 2:10:39 PM EDT
[#13]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By Prime: Blinken stole the “2nd strongest IN UKRAINE” joke.
He is not wrong. Russia is a 3rd rate military force. |
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Posted: 6/2/2023 2:21:54 PM EDT
[#14]
Details of the explosion of the dumpling from Mykhailivka.
Partisans roasted the collaborator Davidyuk, whom the Russian mass media dubbed Hydovodyuk. Together with him, 3 occupiers went to the concert in Kobzon. It is known that Davidyuk is the owner of the "Hetman" tavern, where FSB officers and collaborators, as well as oil mills, gathered. We are still investigating whether the collaborator is still alive. 
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Posted: 6/2/2023 2:24:52 PM EDT
[#15]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By RockNwood: I’d like to see them take out those port cranes at some point. But it sounds like they were targeting the air defense unit at the port this time around. It would be awesome to see some intel come in for an ammo ship in port catching a Storm Shadow. Texas City/Beirut all over again. |
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Posted: 6/2/2023 2:28:50 PM EDT
[Last Edit: Prime]
[#16]
⚡️ OK "South" reports on the past day of combat work. In the southern direction was destroyed: ▪️27 rashits; ▪️RSZV "Grad"; ▪️Lancet strike drone; ▪️1 tank; ▪️4 large-caliber artillery installations; ▪️4 units of armored vehicles; ▪️2 Murom-P surveillance complexes. Another field supply point was also destroyed. https://t.me/zsuwar/32310 |
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Posted: 6/2/2023 2:29:27 PM EDT
[#17]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By Prime: Because Russia helped make it. Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By Prime: Originally Posted By _disconnector_: Why is it that if a country or area is labeled the "People's Republic of X" it's always shit? Because Russia helped make it. Also note that 'People's Republic' always goes hand in hand with the actual people having fuck all to say. |
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Posted: 6/2/2023 2:38:32 PM EDT
[#18]
T-90M destroyed by Ukrainian artillery fire. Some discussion elsewhere indicates that this was in Luhansk, along with most of the other T90 losses. It's interesting that they're seemingly committing most of their T90s to Luhansk instead of down south in Zaporizhzhia.
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Posted: 6/2/2023 3:00:24 PM EDT
[Last Edit: Prime]
[#19]
M240 with optic.
13. Posiciones alrededor de Klishchiivka, Bakhmut, 3 Brigada de Asalto UKR Azov: M240L + Visor Térmico AGM Varmint LRF TS50-640. https://twitter.com/tuiteromartin/status/1664679265189625878 🌐 Place: #Klishchiivka 🗓 Date: 05.2023 🇺🇦 Unit: 3 OShBr 📌 Geolocation: 📂 Description: You can see what modern wines are. You won't fight particularly well with a fixed sight. West of the village of Klishchiivka, Donetsk region. ❗️ Source https://t.me/WarArchive_ua/1511 Patriot  https://t.me/britishintelligence/8202  The defense forces of Ukraine destroyed and damaged a total of 22 warships of the Russian Federation, reports Armiya.Inform. "The absolute "leader" in this list is the former flagship of the "great" Black Sea fleet of the Russian Federation "Moscow", which became a real shock not only for the military leadership of the Kremlin, but also for the entire population of Moscow. The complete loss of another 17 warships during 2022-2023, and the long-term disabling of four more and one for 10 days forced the Russian fleet to stay in the Black Sea away from our coast, from where the Ukrainian Armed Forces can hit them with available long-range weapons." . https://t.me/newspn/57474 |
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Posted: 6/2/2023 3:15:06 PM EDT
[#20]
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Posted: 6/2/2023 3:27:50 PM EDT
[#21]
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Posted: 6/2/2023 3:28:19 PM EDT
[#22]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By Lightning_P38: What does Danzig look like these days? There is precedent to treat the residents as citizens of another country regardless of place of birth. Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By Lightning_P38: Originally Posted By Auto5guy: This is funny but the reality is that if the russian federation breaks up nobody is going to want Kaliningrad because it's full of russians. https://pbs.twimg.com/media/FxlmyknXoAAGUHW?format=png&name=small What does Danzig look like these days? There is precedent to treat the residents as citizens of another country regardless of place of birth. But God help the nation that has to assimilate/rehabilitate a million drunken, paranoid russians. They might find independence being thrust upon them. |
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Posted: 6/2/2023 3:35:26 PM EDT
[#23]
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Posted: 6/2/2023 3:38:00 PM EDT
[#24]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By kpacman: This has been my fear too. I get the concept of boiling the bear, but the question is how many additional Ukrainians will die before the bear taps out. I wouldn't want to be a member of this administration if the press or historians in the future learn that this was our policy and that the conflict could have ended sooner with a bit more effort and equipment. Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By kpacman: Originally Posted By governmentman: Originally Posted By kpacman: Yeah...now that the long range cherry has been broken, I don't understand why Biden is still reluctant to provide the U.S. version. Time for ATACMS and other weapons to help level the playing field. My thought is still that the primary goal of the US isn't Ukrainian defense but to 'boil the bear' and deplete Russia's conventional military. Storm Shadow pushes Russia harder, but not a rapid end to the war due to limited numbers. ATACMS in quantity would allow Ukraine to methodically dismantle Russia's entire combat support infrastructure to a depth that makes pushing things out of range completely impractical. It would break Russia's ability to defend the territory they occupy, which is why it hasn't happened yet. This has been my fear too. I get the concept of boiling the bear, but the question is how many additional Ukrainians will die before the bear taps out. I wouldn't want to be a member of this administration if the press or historians in the future learn that this was our policy and that the conflict could have ended sooner with a bit more effort and equipment. 100%. I think it is spineless foot dragging but this alternative concept is not beyond the despicable moral corruption of Biden. Either way I hope the truth eventually fries his ass. |
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USA
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Posted: 6/2/2023 3:40:20 PM EDT
[#25]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By MelGibsonEnthusiast: T-90M destroyed by Ukrainian artillery fire. Dumb civilian's observation: artillery rounds seem to have much easier job destroying tanks than main guns of other tanks. Is this because artillery shoots HEAT munitions that attack from the top? Why even bother with the flat-shooting tank guns of ever larger calibers firing sabot rounds with ever more exotic penetrator designs then? |
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MD, USA
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Posted: 6/2/2023 3:42:43 PM EDT
[#26]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By AuNate: Watergate -1972 If Watergate happened today and it was the Liberals sniffing on the Conservatives, you may only find out by some conservative blogger, as that type of work now is perfectly OK according to the DoJ and FBI. |
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Posted: 6/2/2023 3:43:24 PM EDT
[#27]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By Auto5guy: This is funny but the reality is that if the russian federation breaks up nobody is going to want Kaliningrad because it's full of russians. https://pbs.twimg.com/media/FxlmyknXoAAGUHW?format=png&name=small It used to be full of Germans, but now it's not. Just do it again and send all the residents back to Russia proper. |
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Posted: 6/2/2023 3:44:26 PM EDT
[#28]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By Prime: #1741 Birthday present for Yevgeny Prigozhin from employees https://www.ar15.com/media/mediaFiles/203719/IMG_3139-2837877.jpg https://t.me/rsotmdivision/7780  Attached FileWow great job Wagner. Only how many 10s of thousands of dudes? |
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Posted: 6/2/2023 3:47:00 PM EDT
[#29]
Don't remember seeing this posted. Shows them setting up for a drone attack.
 Ukraine GoPro | Western Volunteer Eliminates Russians with Drone |
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Posted: 6/2/2023 3:54:15 PM EDT
[#30]
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USA
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Posted: 6/2/2023 3:57:48 PM EDT
[#31]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By voyager3: Dumb civilian's observation: artillery rounds seem to have much easier job destroying tanks than main guns of other tanks. Is this because artillery shoots HEAT munitions that attack from the top? Why even bother with the flat-shooting tank guns of ever larger calibers firing sabot rounds with ever more exotic penetrator designs then? This is why some people think tanks are obsolete. Artillery has a longer range, fires over hills, and can now be guided accurately by drones. That said infantry who encounter a tank that starts firing those big rounds at the building they were using for cover may not feel like tanks are all that obsolete |
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KY, USA
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Posted: 6/2/2023 4:04:22 PM EDT
[#32]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By PolarBear416: This is why some people think tanks are obsolete. Artillery has a longer range, fires over hills, and can now be guided accurately by drones. That said infantry who encounter a tank that starts firing those big rounds at the building they were using for cover may not feel like tanks are all that obsolete Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By PolarBear416: Originally Posted By voyager3: Dumb civilian's observation: artillery rounds seem to have much easier job destroying tanks than main guns of other tanks. Is this because artillery shoots HEAT munitions that attack from the top? Why even bother with the flat-shooting tank guns of ever larger calibers firing sabot rounds with ever more exotic penetrator designs then? This is why some people think tanks are obsolete. Artillery has a longer range, fires over hills, and can now be guided accurately by drones. That said infantry who encounter a tank that starts firing those big rounds at the building they were using for cover may not feel like tanks are all that obsolete What about a self-propelled howitzer firing at that same building? Thats what I'm having a hard time wrapping my head around. With the advances to 155 mm munitions, and how effective they seem to be, plus the prevalence of small anti armor missile, I'm wondering what the ultimate effect would be if you took something M109 and had it bang an M1. Keep sensors and data links, armor, but a 155 mm turret |
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Posted: 6/2/2023 4:06:23 PM EDT
[#33]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By Prime:  We publish a request from the editors of RIA "New Day" and the answer: Dear Evgeny Viktorovich, Hello. On May 20, you announced that Wagner PMC units were going to the rear areas. What is the situation on June 2? Did the units leave Artemovsk? Were there any incidents or provocations on the part of the Armed Forces of Ukraine? Thank you. We publish a comment by Evgeny Prigozhin: “At the moment, on June 2, almost all 99% of the Wagner PMC units left Bakhmut. All positions have been handed over to the Ministry of Defense in due course. No questions, no comments. As for provocations. As of today, there are no provocations against us from the side of the Armed Forces of Ukraine, however, it should be noted that surprises were waiting for us from the other side. Shortly before our departure, we detected suspicious activity along our route. As part of the discovery of this suspicious activity, we called law enforcement and began to investigate our exit routes along the roads. We found about a dozen places where various explosive devices were placed, ranging from hundreds of anti-tank mines to tons of plastid - a charge from the so-called "Serpent Gorynych". All this was under control, while we carried out investigative actions, again together with law enforcement agencies, in order to document everything. Investigations and investigations are underway. Those who planted these charges were representatives of the Ministry of Defense. When asked why you did it, they point their fingers up. Questions are not yet answered. These charges did not need to be stacked in order to contain the enemy, since it is located in the rear zone. Therefore, it can be assumed that they wanted to meet the advancing units of the Wagner PMC with these charges, although we do not walk in columns. As a matter of fact, that's it. Everything is safe and sound. No harm done. What was it? We assume that this was an attempt at public flogging. Thank you". https://t.me/Prigozhin_hat/3564 With these people you can never know if it was ineptitude or malice. Malicious ineptitude? |
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Posted: 6/2/2023 4:11:52 PM EDT
[#34]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By maddmatt: What about a self-propelled howitzer firing at that same building? Thats what I'm having a hard time wrapping my head around. With the advances to 155 mm munitions, and how effective they seem to be, plus the prevalence of small anti armor missile, I'm wondering what the ultimate effect would be if you took something M109 and had it bang an M1. Keep sensors and data links, armor, but a 155 mm turret Interesting concept: MBT (Abrams) combined with an SPG like Paladin? Probably would turn into an Elefant (from WWII) and make the Air Force air transport planners scream. But still interesting concept. |
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Posted: 6/2/2023 4:12:41 PM EDT
[#35]
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Posted: 6/2/2023 4:18:25 PM EDT
[#36]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By ITCHY-FINGER: Interesting concept: MBT (Abrams) combined with an SPG like Paladin? Probably would turn into an Elefant (from WWII) and make the Air Force air transport planners scream. But still interesting concept. If you -had- to go down that road, then something along the lines of the old mortar/GL port on some tanks from WWII and up to the Merkava that could pop out something like a Switchblade would probably be easier to produce. |
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Posted: 6/2/2023 4:20:03 PM EDT
[Last Edit: yekimak]
[#37]
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Posted: 6/2/2023 4:29:09 PM EDT
[#38]
Quote History5.45 mag, 7.62 milled AK |
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Posted: 6/2/2023 4:33:04 PM EDT
[#39]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By maddmatt: What about a self-propelled howitzer firing at that same building? Thats what I'm having a hard time wrapping my head around. With the advances to 155 mm munitions, and how effective they seem to be, plus the prevalence of small anti armor missile, I'm wondering what the ultimate effect would be if you took something M109 and had it bang an M1. Keep sensors and data links, armor, but a 155 mm turret Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By maddmatt: Originally Posted By PolarBear416: Originally Posted By voyager3: Dumb civilian's observation: artillery rounds seem to have much easier job destroying tanks than main guns of other tanks. Is this because artillery shoots HEAT munitions that attack from the top? Why even bother with the flat-shooting tank guns of ever larger calibers firing sabot rounds with ever more exotic penetrator designs then? This is why some people think tanks are obsolete. Artillery has a longer range, fires over hills, and can now be guided accurately by drones. That said infantry who encounter a tank that starts firing those big rounds at the building they were using for cover may not feel like tanks are all that obsolete What about a self-propelled howitzer firing at that same building? Thats what I'm having a hard time wrapping my head around. With the advances to 155 mm munitions, and how effective they seem to be, plus the prevalence of small anti armor missile, I'm wondering what the ultimate effect would be if you took something M109 and had it bang an M1. Keep sensors and data links, armor, but a 155 mm turret |
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TX, USA
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Posted: 6/2/2023 4:35:25 PM EDT
[Last Edit: castlebravo84]
[#40]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By ITCHY-FINGER: Interesting concept: MBT (Abrams) combined with an SPG like Paladin? Probably would turn into an Elefant (from WWII) and make the Air Force air transport planners scream. But still interesting concept. Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By ITCHY-FINGER: Originally Posted By maddmatt: What about a self-propelled howitzer firing at that same building? Thats what I'm having a hard time wrapping my head around. With the advances to 155 mm munitions, and how effective they seem to be, plus the prevalence of small anti armor missile, I'm wondering what the ultimate effect would be if you took something M109 and had it bang an M1. Keep sensors and data links, armor, but a 155 mm turret Interesting concept: MBT (Abrams) combined with an SPG like Paladin? Probably would turn into an Elefant (from WWII) and make the Air Force air transport planners scream. But still interesting concept. We are already looking at 140mm guns for the next generation of MBTs. With a guided shell the lack of rifling wouldn't hurt long range indirect fire accuracy. All you need to do is design it to allow for high elevation angles and you have your combo MBT/SPG track. For bonus points, integrate it with some type of maneuver shorad radar vehicle and now you have a combo MBT/SPG/AAA track. |
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USA
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Posted: 6/2/2023 4:44:12 PM EDT
[#41]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By Hate_Work: If Watergate happened today and it was the Liberals sniffing on the Conservatives, you may only find out by some conservative blogger, as that type of work now is perfectly OK according to the DoJ and FBI. Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By Hate_Work: Originally Posted By AuNate: Watergate -1972 If Watergate happened today and it was the Liberals sniffing on the Conservatives, you may only find out by some conservative blogger, as that type of work now is perfectly OK according to the DoJ and FBI. Truth. |
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Posted: 6/2/2023 4:53:29 PM EDT
[#42]
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Posted: 6/2/2023 4:58:27 PM EDT
[#43]
Quote HistoryBeitodesstrafe would love that. |
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Posted: 6/2/2023 4:58:34 PM EDT
[#44]
Good update video on continued use of HIMARS, how it affects Russian logistics, and why have NO HIMARS launchers been destroyed.
 What Happened to HIMARS? |
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Posted: 6/2/2023 5:01:31 PM EDT
[#45]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By Prime: https://pbs.twimg.com/media/FxpTpSqWAAE7Fix?format=jpg&name=large
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Posted: 6/2/2023 5:01:32 PM EDT
[#46]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By castlebravo84: We are already looking at 140mm guns for the next generation of MBTs. With a guided shell the lack of rifling wouldn't hurt long range indirect fire accuracy. All you need to do is design it to allow for high elevation angles and you have your combo MBT/SPG track. For bonus points, integrate it with some type of maneuver shorad radar vehicle and now you have a combo MBT/SPG/AAA track. Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By castlebravo84: Originally Posted By ITCHY-FINGER: Originally Posted By maddmatt: What about a self-propelled howitzer firing at that same building? Thats what I'm having a hard time wrapping my head around. With the advances to 155 mm munitions, and how effective they seem to be, plus the prevalence of small anti armor missile, I'm wondering what the ultimate effect would be if you took something M109 and had it bang an M1. Keep sensors and data links, armor, but a 155 mm turret Interesting concept: MBT (Abrams) combined with an SPG like Paladin? Probably would turn into an Elefant (from WWII) and make the Air Force air transport planners scream. But still interesting concept. We are already looking at 140mm guns for the next generation of MBTs. With a guided shell the lack of rifling wouldn't hurt long range indirect fire accuracy. All you need to do is design it to allow for high elevation angles and you have your combo MBT/SPG track. For bonus points, integrate it with some type of maneuver shorad radar vehicle and now you have a combo MBT/SPG/AAA track. Too soon to declare M1A2 obsolete and available for surplus delivery? Asking for a friend. |
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Posted: 6/2/2023 5:09:22 PM EDT
[Last Edit: AlmightyTallest]
[#47]
All about the lethality enhancer in the Patriot PAC-3 missiles.
https://www.thedrive.com/the-war-zone/patriot-pac-3-hit-to-kill-interceptors-also-pack-a-little-known-explosive-warhead |
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Posted: 6/2/2023 5:26:35 PM EDT
[#48]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By kpacman: This has been my fear too. I get the concept of boiling the bear, but the question is how many additional Ukrainians will die before the bear taps out. I wouldn't want to be a member of this administration if the press or historians in the future learn that this was our policy and that the conflict could have ended sooner with a bit more effort and equipment. Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By kpacman: Originally Posted By governmentman: Originally Posted By kpacman: Yeah...now that the long range cherry has been broken, I don't understand why Biden is still reluctant to provide the U.S. version. Time for ATACMS and other weapons to help level the playing field. My thought is still that the primary goal of the US isn't Ukrainian defense but to 'boil the bear' and deplete Russia's conventional military. Storm Shadow pushes Russia harder, but not a rapid end to the war due to limited numbers. ATACMS in quantity would allow Ukraine to methodically dismantle Russia's entire combat support infrastructure to a depth that makes pushing things out of range completely impractical. It would break Russia's ability to defend the territory they occupy, which is why it hasn't happened yet. This has been my fear too. I get the concept of boiling the bear, but the question is how many additional Ukrainians will die before the bear taps out. I wouldn't want to be a member of this administration if the press or historians in the future learn that this was our policy and that the conflict could have ended sooner with a bit more effort and equipment. Look, our government has said that the goal is no longer to defend Ukraine but to destroy the Russian military. They said it. But in spite of that, I think that the trickle of weapons is a result of bureaucracy and votes and polling data and meetings and boardrooms with PowerPoint demonstrations, and paperwork completed in triplicate. |
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Posted: 6/2/2023 5:30:44 PM EDT
[#49]
In other news I found someone's kitten in the garden. Poor little cat looks scared.
 Attached File Attached File |
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Posted: 6/2/2023 5:33:02 PM EDT
[#50]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By Mal_means_bad: The South Korean K2 tank (which Poland is getting) can communicate directly with drones and fire shells on a high ballistic arc that are similar to Excalibur guided howitzer rounds and BONUS self-guided top attack cluster munitions. It should be able to hit enemy tanks and other targets behind hills, and buildings, and woods and such out to something like 5km. A proper howitzer has a lot more range, but the K2 will be it's own pocket smart howitzer, while having tank armor and flexibility and retaining ye olde kinetic energy main gun ammo for shooting short range enemies in the face. Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By Mal_means_bad: Originally Posted By maddmatt: Originally Posted By PolarBear416: Originally Posted By voyager3: Dumb civilian's observation: artillery rounds seem to have much easier job destroying tanks than main guns of other tanks. Is this because artillery shoots HEAT munitions that attack from the top? Why even bother with the flat-shooting tank guns of ever larger calibers firing sabot rounds with ever more exotic penetrator designs then? This is why some people think tanks are obsolete. Artillery has a longer range, fires over hills, and can now be guided accurately by drones. That said infantry who encounter a tank that starts firing those big rounds at the building they were using for cover may not feel like tanks are all that obsolete What about a self-propelled howitzer firing at that same building? Thats what I'm having a hard time wrapping my head around. With the advances to 155 mm munitions, and how effective they seem to be, plus the prevalence of small anti armor missile, I'm wondering what the ultimate effect would be if you took something M109 and had it bang an M1. Keep sensors and data links, armor, but a 155 mm turret  |
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