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Posted: 7/3/2023 6:25:09 PM EDT
[#1]
Absolutely insufferable
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USA
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Posted: 7/3/2023 6:26:32 PM EDT
[#2]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By daemon734: As usual you don't have one. Do you have any concrete solution ideas to share or that you’d like to discuss? Seems like that is a more fruitful area for the thread. |
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USA
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Posted: 7/3/2023 6:29:08 PM EDT
[#3]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By 7empest: Absolutely insufferable |
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Posted: 7/3/2023 6:31:52 PM EDT
[#4]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By daemon734: As usual you don't have one. Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By daemon734: As usual you don't have one. You literally quoted it and still somehow missed it. Originally Posted By daemon734: So what? They purchased them prior and are donating them, and it's still only two 20KM systems. What does that have to do with your claim that this means the 2 year timeline is false? Bait and switch? I responded to your claim that Arrow-3 in Germany will be causing major effects, which it may, at the end of 2025.. Its not my fault you don't research your own claims. The problem is that there will not be any comprehensive air defense solutions for several years. 2 NASAMs do not solve that problem. Here is your own quote by the way, you pulled your own bait and switch on me. It has absolutely nothing to do with NASAMs. Originally Posted By Prime: I'm saying that, like when Germany buys Arrow-3 and sends Patriots to Ukraine, things happen that you're not going to see coming.  |
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Posted: 7/3/2023 6:32:26 PM EDT
[#5]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By RockNwood: The "Patriot concern" club always ignores the dozens of other systems like BUK, S-300, NASAMs, Gephard, IRiS-T, MANPADs, etc. Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By RockNwood: Originally Posted By PolarBear416: Originally Posted By AeroEngineer: Exactly. There are detain high value targets (the Patriot battery itself) where trading a Patriot for a POS Shaheed is worth it. Not because of the value of the Shaheed itself but because of the value of the Shaheed's target, So far in this conflict the Ukrainian military leadership has generally been pretty savvy with what they're doing. I'm going to assume they understand the value of a Patriot missile, snd are weighing this in for target dejection decisions. The Patriot battery is itself defended by other AD, they are not using it to shoot down incoming drones. The "Patriot concern" club always ignores the dozens of other systems like BUK, S-300, NASAMs, Gephard, IRiS-T, MANPADs, etc. |
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Posted: 7/3/2023 6:34:28 PM EDT
[#6]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By HIPPO: don’t worry, I’m sure the staff duty roster will provide us with another opportunity… LOL, God help us if he doesn't get any recovery |
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Posted: 7/3/2023 6:37:23 PM EDT
[#7]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By Zam18th: JFC. I thought there was actual news but the thread jumped pages just because of a couple of Shitheads.  |
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USA
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Posted: 7/3/2023 6:40:48 PM EDT
[#8]
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Posted: 7/3/2023 6:43:07 PM EDT
[#9]
Ignore feature works well folks
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Posted: 7/3/2023 6:45:45 PM EDT
[#10]
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Posted: 7/3/2023 6:48:28 PM EDT
[#11]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By Brok3n: Ignore feature works well folks Yeah, but the others quoting him makes my fast forward finger sore. |
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USA
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Posted: 7/3/2023 6:49:53 PM EDT
[Last Edit: PolarBear416]
[#12]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By daemon734: Weird. Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By daemon734: Originally Posted By PolarBear416: That doesn't corroborate your link to long range missiles Weird. Originally Posted By Auto5guy: Originally Posted By daemon734: The important part is where we (USG) stated we believe it. Quote please? I read through all three links again. It corroborated that China has considered arming Russia which no one disputes, but I did not see anywhere any mention that the US sending long range missiles to Ukraine was some kind of red line for China. It's not free for China to arm Russia. It would certainly precipitate a trade war with the West that would tip the Chinese economy into recession and harm China's interests in a lot of ways. If they did arm Russia it would potentially cause NATO to get more directly involved, perhaps imposing a no fly zone over Ukrainian territory I think China wants to sit this one out. |
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Posted: 7/3/2023 6:51:48 PM EDT
[#13]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By postpostban: God this is getting old. What do you think you are accomplishing in this thread? Do you think anyone in here has any control over anything happining in this war? People speculate all the time, so what? Many opinions given in here are wrong, so what? Nothing posted in here will affect the war in any way. You seem to have some legitimate clout in the real world, go use it. Help those people get the equipment they need. Every time you come in here, you act like the war is already lost and Ukraine is Checkmated. I have no idea if that is true or not, but I do like to read about the events of the day here. I apreciate the people who post links to current events. I take opinions in here with a grain of salt. I don't think you are a Putin ally, I don't think you are a fool. I do think you look down on posters in this thread, and I really hate the way you belittle people. Thank you for offering your opinion on one important topic, we all get your point. At this point, either move on or offer solutions. This thread doesn't need another 5 pages of you. You and R0N have the same attitude, it got old with him, it gets old with you. |
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Posted: 7/3/2023 6:52:47 PM EDT
[#14]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By trapsh00ter99: I should have specified that is the targeting of the A10 accurate enough for the cannon to do A2A kills. I know the cannon would take care of the drone if hit, but is it possible to make hits on a small aerial target. Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By trapsh00ter99: Originally Posted By Tiberius: Undoubtedly, but that is kinda overkill. I suggested earlier a reusable drone armed with a pistol caliber MG intended to patrol an area then close with targets (other drones) it detects and shoot them down, the answers I got make me think that a suicide drone with a prox-fuzed warhead may be better, just has to get close then .*boom*. |
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Posted: 7/3/2023 6:53:47 PM EDT
[#15]
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NC, USA
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Posted: 7/3/2023 6:53:52 PM EDT
[#16]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By ludder093: Same. Saw a bunch of pages and thought something major happened. Instead it's pages of purse swinging. its like it comes in waves -- every hundred pages or so |
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Posted: 7/3/2023 6:55:09 PM EDT
[#17]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By Brok3n: Ignore feature works well folks  |
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Posted: 7/3/2023 6:55:55 PM EDT
[#18]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By daemon734: This entire thread is speculative and leads to absolutely zero real world action. However opposing viewpoints get dogpiled as "speculative" and "irrelevant", when those account for 100% of the discussion here. Honestly we have been putting band aids on this hoping the Ukrainians would make it go away in a timely fashion. It hasn't, and they can't until the larger issues are addressed, which won't be for a long time. I don't pretend to have an answer for that, nor am I obligated to provide one. There are essentially two paths forward, one is armistice and the other is the Ukrainians lasting another 2 years or more. Both are unlikely. I do my part, I've been to strategic-level briefings to talk about some of this, and personally addressed a lot of these concerns within the ASCC's and COE's. I can only speak freely about around 10% of that, and the attitude in this thread is why I will leave and only come back when some of my concerns hit the mainstream, if at all. In the meantime I said my piece, you guy are free to continue your echo chamber. Poor baby. If only we didn't point out your bullshit we could all get along. Unfortunately arrogance and thin skin make it hard to get through life. You invited the dogpile buddy. "I don't have an agenda, this just supports facts that I have been trying to convey in this thread multiple times. Facts that are consistently denied but always end up becoming proven." "I'm providing the same level of information sharing and discussion as anyone else in this thread. The only difference is its objective, which means it will be immediately challenged as a pro Russia stance." You come back after a long absence and on the first page of your return you make statements conveying you are the only one with the facts and being objective while everyone else is speculating. You put yourself above every other person in the thread. You can't insultingly imply you are the only one with facts without having reasonable people challenge your facts. And your facts were bullshit. Sucks to be you. Go be a victim somewhere else please. |
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NV, USA
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Posted: 7/3/2023 6:56:50 PM EDT
[#19]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By HIPPO:
DPICM to the courtesy phone. 
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NC, USA
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Posted: 7/3/2023 6:57:20 PM EDT
[#20]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By trapsh00ter99: +1 Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By trapsh00ter99: Originally Posted By postpostban: God this is getting old. What do you think you are accomplishing in this thread? Do you think anyone in here has any control over anything happining in this war? People speculate all the time, so what? Many opinions given in here are wrong, so what? Nothing posted in here will affect the war in any way. You seem to have some legitimate clout in the real world, go use it. Help those people get the equipment they need. Every time you come in here, you act like the war is already lost and Ukraine is Checkmated. I have no idea if that is true or not, but I do like to read about the events of the day here. I apreciate the people who post links to current events. I take opinions in here with a grain of salt. I don't think you are a Putin ally, I don't think you are a fool. I do think you look down on posters in this thread, and I really hate the way you belittle people. Thank you for offering your opinion on one important topic, we all get your point. At this point, either move on or offer solutions. This thread doesn't need another 5 pages of you. You and R0N have the same attitude, it got old with him, it gets old with you. funny i typed some stuff then deleted it. pretty much exactly what you said. its a freakin' DISCUSSION BOARD. we discuss. some is silly. some is wrong. some is illogical. ya gotta piece through it and find the nuggets... but the info is there i for one appreciate the 'aggregation' of info to sort through -- thanks to all |
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Posted: 7/3/2023 6:58:19 PM EDT
[#21]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By RockNwood: ESCALATION!!! A tired old song. Russia is doing everything they possibly can or think they can get away with. If they had ANY unused capability they would have already thrown it in. Barefoot, sneakers, and putrid food on the front. Meat bag attacks. Mosins. Frankenmobiles. Baofeng radios and Telegram for tactical comms. The pussy folks in charge are using it to slow roll aid as well. |
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TX, USA
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Posted: 7/3/2023 6:58:53 PM EDT
[#22]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By ludder093: The a 10s low speed would help it in this scenario. They can also carry a bunch of AA missiles to shoot down drones.  |
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NV, USA
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Posted: 7/3/2023 6:59:10 PM EDT
[#23]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By trapsh00ter99: The problem is, the collective west needs to come up with a way to stop cheap drones en masse, and fast. This issue is just going to compound every day. Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By trapsh00ter99: Originally Posted By daemon734: Absolutely not. I support giving them a lot of support. We cannot afford to give them items we cannot readily replace that are being expended at these rates. At that point its either time for a new plan or time to stop. Running dry only causes the same outcome for all of us and puts Ukraine in a worse bargaining position. I'm all for a new plan. https://soldiersystems.net/2023/07/02/rheinmetall-mission-master-cxt-fire-support-for-counter-uas-role/  Rheinmetall is proud to present the Mission Master CXT – Fire Support, equipped with Dillon dual M134D miniguns. This innovative and reliable countermeasure is specially designed to defeat small unmanned aerial systems (UAS). It can fire an impressive 6,000 rounds per minute and defeat drone targets day and night. With the ability to autonomously detect and track aerial and land targets, while also prioritizing safe fire engagement by the operator (man in/on the loop), this pioneering technology is set to revolutionize counter-UAS operations. What’s more, it features wolfpack capability, meaning that one operator can manage multiple unmanned ground vehicles at the same time. |
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Posted: 7/3/2023 6:59:51 PM EDT
[#24]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By SmilingBandit: I have a few hours in 172s. Never at 185 mph. Vne and able to Vne are two different things. Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By SmilingBandit: Originally Posted By fisherman: Originally Posted By trapsh00ter99: I know we've beaten A10s for Ukraine to death, but can the cannon on them deal with Shaheds in rear areas? They fly 115 mph. Cessna 172 flys 185 mph. Guy with a Thompson could take one down. I have a few hours in 172s. Never at 185 mph. Vne and able to Vne are two different things. |
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Posted: 7/3/2023 7:04:55 PM EDT
[#25]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By lorazepam: The pussy folks in charge are using it to slow roll aid as well. Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By lorazepam: Originally Posted By RockNwood: ESCALATION!!! A tired old song. Russia is doing everything they possibly can or think they can get away with. If they had ANY unused capability they would have already thrown it in. Barefoot, sneakers, and putrid food on the front. Meat bag attacks. Mosins. Frankenmobiles. Baofeng radios and Telegram for tactical comms. The pussy folks in charge are using it to slow roll aid as well. Everyday they break their arms patting themselves on the back for averting a nuclear war that has no chance of happening. |
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NV, USA
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Posted: 7/3/2023 7:05:56 PM EDT
[#26]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By trapsh00ter99: I know we've beaten A10s for Ukraine to death, but can the cannon on them deal with Shaheds in rear areas? Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By trapsh00ter99: Originally Posted By RockNwood: Shaheds are $50,000 and have a 2,000km range from mobile launchers. So they realistically can't be taken out pre-launch. The cost effective intercept is auto cannon like the Gephard or patrolling aircraft like attack helos or fighters. Manpads ($120K) would be the next best. A2A missile get into the $400K+ range. Even more cost effective would be to prevent Iranian shipments on the Caspian Sea or via air freight. The Apache's 30mm firing the new 30mm Proximity Airburst would probably be a better choice for air based drone zapper. |
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USA
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Posted: 7/3/2023 7:06:41 PM EDT
[#27]
Gepard on the prowl. |
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Posted: 7/3/2023 7:06:46 PM EDT
[#28]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By MFP_4073: its like it comes in waves -- every hundred pages or so Funny how it happens when Ukraine makes some gains. |
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USA
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Posted: 7/3/2023 7:07:22 PM EDT
[#29]
Here's how I see China's position on Ukraine:
They are not happy with Russia creating chaos and prefer a more predictable and stable situation. War can result in unexpected outcomes which might be bad for China, whereas they are otherwise growing in power and influence. Russia on the other hand is losing influence around the world and destabilizing wars creates uncertainty and therefore the possibility of outcomes that reverse Russia's decline, so Russia war mongers and sows chaos. China doesn't want Russia to be eliminated as Russia is a strategic ally against the West but neither does China want to blow Ukraine up into an unpredictable worldwide conflict. So China will lend Russia enough support to prevent Russia from collapsing as a country but otherwise won't pour fuel on the fire. In other words China supports a stable Russia but not the war and doesn't care if Russia wins. I don't think China will arm Russia for these reasons. |
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NV, USA
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Posted: 7/3/2023 7:08:06 PM EDT
[#30]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By daemon734: Oh neat, I believe I brought this up several times. It is unsustainable and another option must be found. That option is not going to be munitions several years in the future. You seem to think deep strike capability into Russia is the answer, which will most likely illicit the open transfer of drones and ballistic missiles from China, and even more from Iran. The Patriots and all TBM's are going to run out, you just seem to think it won't be as fast as it will be. Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By daemon734: Originally Posted By Logcutter: So, maybe figure out a way(s) to end this sooner instead of going on and on and on about "muh patriots gonna run out" Oh neat, I believe I brought this up several times. It is unsustainable and another option must be found. That option is not going to be munitions several years in the future. You seem to think deep strike capability into Russia is the answer, which will most likely illicit the open transfer of drones and ballistic missiles from China, and even more from Iran. The Patriots and all TBM's are going to run out, you just seem to think it won't be as fast as it will be. It's a very real problem. For a rapid defense option against the Shaheeds, possibly having them attacked by other FPV drones. Or something like a quadcopter that flies up and detonates a claymore mine in the path of an approaching Shaheed. |
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Posted: 7/3/2023 7:08:25 PM EDT
[#31]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By ludder093: Same. Saw a bunch of pages and thought something major happened. Instead it's pages of purse swinging. Indeed, thought something substantial was going on. Nope I am willing to donate some Midol or Tampax 
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NV, USA
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Posted: 7/3/2023 7:09:42 PM EDT
[#32]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By daemon734: China has openly stated they will not directly transfer military materiel if we do not provide long range strike capability to Ukraine. Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By daemon734: Originally Posted By DK-Prof: Isn't Russia going to pursue that regardless? China has openly stated they will not directly transfer military materiel if we do not provide long range strike capability to Ukraine. I must have missed this. Source? |
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Posted: 7/3/2023 7:10:34 PM EDT
[#33]
Here is some of that sweet russian freedom.
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USA
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Posted: 7/3/2023 7:11:01 PM EDT
[#34]
lol |
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Posted: 7/3/2023 7:12:18 PM EDT
[#35]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By DK-Prof: I definitely feel like there might be a bit of a "Whatever, let's just use the Patriots for everything." attitude among the Ukraine leadership. If it works, that's great - but if they run out because they are burning them up on cheap Iranian drones, then it's going to bite them on the ass eventually. On the other hand, if they don't have other solutions (like Gepards protecting all their sites), then it's easy to see how they end up with that mindset. So while I can see that it's potentially a huge problem on the horizon, I am not sure how much I blame them. I also wonder how centralized their decision making is. Do they have very clear policies on what to use an expensive Patriot for, and what not to use it for - or is it just up to the local unit, and they launch at EVERYTHING that comes inside their range? I think these are important and legitimate questions, and it's valuable to hear them voiced. I seriously doubt this. They waited a long time to get them and I'm sure it has been made 100% clear if they use them stupidly they will get no more. Despite GD rumors and smooth brain theories Ukraine has never been given a blank check for aid and especially not with equipment. They have been begging for more so I don't see them blasting Patriots at anything that moves. |
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Posted: 7/3/2023 7:12:52 PM EDT
[#36]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By ludder093: Don't we have some Super Tucano we can send them? Twin 50s would fuck up a drone. Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By ludder093: Originally Posted By SmilingBandit: Originally Posted By fisherman: Originally Posted By trapsh00ter99: I know we've beaten A10s for Ukraine to death, but can the cannon on them deal with Shaheds in rear areas? They fly 115 mph. Cessna 172 flys 185 mph. Guy with a Thompson could take one down. I have a few hours in 172s. Never at 185 mph. Vne and able to Vne are two different things. There's gotta be a few super tweets out there somewhere too. |
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Posted: 7/3/2023 7:12:57 PM EDT
[#37]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By spydercomonkey: I must have missed this. Source? The one who wrote it in the thread. There is zero quotes from anyone in china that they will do it. |
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Posted: 7/3/2023 7:13:44 PM EDT
[#38]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By gatetraveller: Not if Ukraine can cover the shipping lanes and ports with Anti-Ship missiles. Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By gatetraveller: Originally Posted By weptek911: Originally Posted By 1Andy2: Right but... all the men in the world won't matter if they can't get ammo, food, medicine, etc... Russia can't protect the kerch strait connection. If they lose the land bridge, Crimea loses logistical connection to the rest of Russia, doesn't it? They can re supply by sea. Remember the battle for the island of Malta in WWII? Not if Ukraine can cover the shipping lanes and ports with Anti-Ship missiles. Plus, the Russian Navy isn't exactly the Royal Navy.... |
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Posted: 7/3/2023 7:18:53 PM EDT
[#39]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By Saltwater-Hillbilly: Plus, the Russian Navy isn't exactly the Royal Navy.... Hey buddy! Did you enjoy the shit show? |
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Posted: 7/3/2023 7:20:31 PM EDT
[#40]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By daemon734: We would just run out of those they sane way we have with every other PGM at this point. There's a reason we have been so hesitant, Patriot just proves that concern was valid. You should be on the phone with your congressman agitating for reduced aid to Ukraine instead of huffing and puffing here, trying to convince everyone of I dont know what. |
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NZL
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Posted: 7/3/2023 7:21:13 PM EDT
[#41]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By Saltwater-Hillbilly: Plus, the Russian Navy isn't exactly the Royal Navy.... And even with the Royal Navy, Malta was very much touch and go. |
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USA
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Posted: 7/3/2023 7:21:24 PM EDT
[#42]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By lorazepam: The one who wrote it in the thread. There is zero quotes from anyone in china that they will do it. It is a relief to know they have to tell us what they are going to do. |
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Posted: 7/3/2023 7:22:30 PM EDT
[#43]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By daemon734: Or China/Iran might drop a couple thousand DF series/Qiam ballistic missiles into the mix and seal the deal on this whole party. Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By daemon734: Originally Posted By Logcutter: Yeah, they might start target apartment buildings.....  Or China/Iran might drop a couple thousand DF series/Qiam ballistic missiles into the mix and seal the deal on this whole party. The United States would benefit greatly from that. |
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Posted: 7/3/2023 7:22:56 PM EDT
[#44]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By Bunn19: Why don't the Ukrainians start making a Shaheed copy or something comprable and use them in large numbers to hit Crimea and Rostov on Don and other Russian areas? Seems like they would wear down Russian ADA and also most likely score some hits. |
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Posted: 7/3/2023 7:23:14 PM EDT
[#45]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By FerrousDueler: What we should be thinking about is training a few pilots on the F-117 and transfer 2 airframes to Ukraine. They can take those and penetrate the shit out of Russian-cntrolled airspace, maybe taking out some very important targets. Don't know what their un-refueled range is, but one of the those bomber bases would seem like a great target. Fuck no. S-400 isn’t what they claim but it WOULD destroy an F-117. Which doesn’t have the range for the mission you describe anyway. |
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Posted: 7/3/2023 7:23:53 PM EDT
[#46]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By daemon734: We would just run out of those they sane way we have with every other PGM at this point. There's a reason we have been so hesitant, Patriot just proves that concern was valid. You probably think using an M31 on a SPH is a waste and that the US wouldn’t be so wasteful. |
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NV, USA
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Posted: 7/3/2023 7:26:34 PM EDT
[#47]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By fisherman: They fly 115 mph. Cessna 172 flys 185 mph. Guy with a Thompson could take one down. Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By fisherman: Originally Posted By trapsh00ter99: I know we've beaten A10s for Ukraine to death, but can the cannon on them deal with Shaheds in rear areas? They fly 115 mph. Cessna 172 flys 185 mph. Guy with a Thompson could take one down. That would be a hysterical air defense plan. Just have a Cessna orbiting the outskirts of kiev. Pilot is directed toward shaheeds via ground control, flies up behind them, and passenger fires out the window with small arms when the cessna pulls alongside the shaheeed. |
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Posted: 7/3/2023 7:27:07 PM EDT
[#48]
The underlying issue here is that western militaries foolishly failed to invest in ADA and presently have little to give relative to what’s required to support a war that’s not backstopped heavily by airpower. Instead of dragging this out the administration needs to grow some balls and help finish it so that the production rate of SAMs vs the production rate of OWA drones isn’t so relevant.
That said, Ukraines capability and will to resist weren’t broken by Iskander before Patriot and won’t be after. |
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Posted: 7/3/2023 7:27:38 PM EDT
[#49]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By vtmarine: It is a relief to know they have to tell us what they are going to do. I find it amusing anyone here thinks they will. |
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Posted: 7/3/2023 7:28:45 PM EDT
[#50]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By spydercomonkey: That would be a hysterical air defense plan. Just have a Cessna orbiting the outskirts of kiev. Pilot is directed toward shaheeds via ground control, flies up behind them, and passenger fires out the window with small arms when the cessna pulls alongside the shaheeed. Too vulnerable to long range A2A missiles launched from aircraft in Belarus. |
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