Much farther than that.

America lost around a century ago during the Progressive Era. We had several generations lulled into compliance and "I'm just a weirdo, everyone else agrees" by mass centralized communication. This started breaking apart in the early 90s when communication technology changed and the population has been slowly becoming more aware ever since. By sheer random coincidence we have been winning the 2A battles almost non-stop since that time as well. (and homeschoolers report the same thing)

That is why the enemy is behaving in ever more insane ways. Because that is how collapsing religions always behave.

Ahhh, thanks.  Different definitions...  just more confusing subjective government, I should have known better

Exactly. The ATF is saying, in their redefinition of a rifle, that if any accessory, attachment (or anything they want) could be theoretically shouldered then it is in their opinion that it must have been designed, made and intended to be shoulder. There is nothing in the law to support that redefinition by the ATF. The ATF is NOT a good faith actor and it is amazing to see people trying to apply logic to their decision making process.

The fatf bitch at shot show during the q&a said sometime next week is when it will be published. But the fatf is a bunch of retarded cunts, so who knows.

If it went that way, you've spent $50-100K+ defending yourself by that point. You call that a win? To most people that is called financial destruction. Not to mention the emotional trauma on you and your family of being prosecuted by the feds. Win or lose, you still lose.

They are scared. These new “rules” do nothing to deter crime. A scared bureaucracy is a dangerous one and will stop at nothing to consolidate power.

Ha, ha!  Remind me again, who is the one doing the fear mongering?  These ladies also picked a side.  As did the quislings.  
Attached File

Yes, there are genuine life-diminishing consequences of this regulatory expansion.  For no rational or mature expectation of a cost-effective social benefit.  This is much bigger than the impact on average consumers.

The post count in this thread alone by certain members simping for the feds is ridiculous.

Being all giddy to register says what? Constantly making threads trying to influence people to registe

The ATF is not allowed to create law and thus is breaking the law. Maybe you should be having this conversation with your boys at the ATF to follow the law. I think you got your message boards mixed up there pall.

I partially disagree with your points, because the use and role of braces has evolved overtime, and goes beyond what you are talking about. Braces did not start as some protest attempt to circumvent NFA. It may have turned into that, for some. If it did, the BATFE can blame no one but themselves. Let's not pretend that this was some elaborate, 4d chess, guns rights maneuver, from start to finish. IMHO most people purchased braced pistols for one of these reasons: disability, can't own nfa or some other stupid state law, or mostly they just want to buy and take home a braced weapon today. The vast majority of these people know little to nothing of the NFA. They want nothing to do with it, nor are they some criminal mastermind deliberately evading it.

Invented for and used by disabled people: The original brace was invented and used to enhance the shooting experience of a one armed disabled vet. There are braced firearms still being made and used for this purpose. There are surely examples of disabled people, who own and operate pistols in this manner, who the ATF just declared that their pistol is an SBR on the evaluated list. I'm guessing none of these people get accused or prosecuted for nfa violation. These rubber or small fin designs were often described by reviewers as not having any significant advantage for shoulder fire over a bare tube. In my opinion, most liked them because they looked better than a bare tube. A lot of people also forget that this timeframe correlates to ARs and tactical weapons greatly rising in popularity. ARs weren't mainstream before. Certainly AR pistols weren't. But after half the country bought ARs under obama, the Braces happened to pop up at just the right time to help expand the appeal and commonality of AR pistols in general.

Pistols intended for lawful use "no shouldering:" When people saw these items were legal to own and put on a pistol, they went for it. Regardless of whether or not a brace could be shouldered like a stock. A lot of us remember when ATF told everyone they were legal unless shouldered. What happened? A lot of compliance by industry, ranges and gunowners. "You cant shoulder that" uttered by cucks at ranges everywhere. Disclaimers were put on items sold, by the "maker:" "not designed or intended to be fired from the shoulder." Yet, despite not being made as, or used like a stock, people were still buying them up like crazy.

How the NFA SBR got completely invalidated It was only after many years of common use, the ATF saying it was ok to shoulder, were some bigger and more adjustable designs made. This was also after the ATF refused to clearly answer industry about what is and isn't out of bounds. Something they still have not clearly answered, although atf cucks want you to believe that suddenly it's all illegal, because, reasons. Industry and individuals reacted to this lack of regulation. They made braces that are both useful as braces and better to shoulder fire than smaller or flimsier or non adjustable designs. However, they are still inferior for shoulder fire, when compared to any stock built for that purpose. Plenty of people still submit form 1's for sbr, for this exact reason.

For the ATF to say, and for some people to agree, that the above is succinctly and accurately translated to: "pistols were always just about deliberately and knowingly evading and voiding the NFA SBR" is absolutely revisionist history, nonsense. If pistols prove nothing else, it's that gun industry and owners have gone way out of their way, to know and follow the law and regulations. And the ATF is second only to the SB inventor, for getting credit for the existence and rise in popularity of stabilized braces.

So fuck Joe Biden, Fuck Merrick Garland and Fuck the politicized BATFE.

If it were me:

Step 1 Wait 119 days from publication, for an injunction.

Step 2 Take it to a gun Smith to cut the fake tube off or otherwise modify to the most desired legal configuration.

Step 3 Send the gun smith bill to the ATF. When they don't pay, file a lawsuit.

I'm not joking. I can reasonably comply without spending money or permanently modifying anything. If that weren't the case, I'd be learning how to file a lawsuit in federal court, instead of posting here.

Great post.

So of these two SBR registration alternatives: A) tax forebeared under ‘the time-pressure deal’ at a potentially massive rate or B) the 1934 way, potentially at slightly higher than historical growth rates, but otherwise tyranny as usual.

which do you see as helping, hurting, or neutral to the cause of judicial or legislative removal of SBRs from the NFA?

^this

Courts are there to enforce the law as written. Mountains of precedent on that. The law states "intended." It's not vague or periferal, it is quite clearly the keyword, in the applicable statute. You also seem to forget that people are presumed innocent.

So the real question that has to be answered is: What evidence do you have that the maker of my firearm designed and intended it to be fired from the shoulder? Even if you think you can convince the Jury of that... They probably don't want to convict an otherwise honest and law abiding citizen, unless you show that the accused: probably knew about a clear and reasonable law, and did himself commit a clear and deliberate act to violate it.

Good luck Mr Fed prosecutor. You aren't going to get an NFA violation prosecution to stick on 99% of pistol owners. They've known that fact, and repeatedly put it in writing for 10 years.

It's difficult to have an earnest conversation with a guy who refuses to call firearms that are classified as pistols and have been sold as pistols for decades before braces were invented, and instead uses biased language referring to them as SBRs.

The law's not vague, you just want it to be so you can pretend they weren't designed for what they were designed for.

LOL
1994 Staples….look up the decision by Supreme Court.
https://caselaw.findlaw.com/us-supreme-court/511/600.html

I never knew that some people were capable of believing something as simple and wrong as the conviction that stated intent overrides all physical evidence.

I usually know better than to argue with people who can't possibly be convinced by logic but I didn't realize until now that is the case here.

Yup, exactly!
The NFA needs to be booted, but is a difference between braced pistols and SBR’s.

ADA interaction is going to be a real interesting angle to this. Not everyone who is disabled has outwardly visible indications.

Ummmm, the ATF themselves agreed that they are pistols……..repeatedly…….for a decade……

Just like all those urban teens rotting in Federal prison for glock switches? :lol:

First, it is not even published in the Federal Register. No one is risking anything until it's published AND past 120 days. Second, many are not even sure the ATF can just write the law like they are trying to. I am just so surprised at the masses of 2A people that are just rolling over without a fight. I myself plan to fight this till the last minute. I refuse to just happily give up my rights without a fight. I along with a few other are ENCOURAGING people to do not just roll over without a fight. We can LEGALLY do this for at least 120 day we know. If you choose to no longer fight this when it becomes illegal to do so, then that's another story.

You are the only one I've seen say that. Nice strawman argument.

Usually they win the case.  But its not usually a "win".  I won,  but all that I won was my stuff back and a $10,000 attorney bill, all they lost is nothing.

I have had arguments over the definition and characteristics of a table with a regulatory authority and specifically told a design was illegal under their interpretation. A short time later a much larger entity began using the identical illegal design. The next legislative session the law miraculously was reworded to remove the nebulous language.

The ATFs current argument relies on subjective criteria and what other people have done to lay a presumption of guilt at my feet.
I will take that to court every day and feel comfortable with the outcome considering I have done everything to comply with the law as written.

It certainly seems like everyone defending the ATFs stance in this thread is using a collective punishment argument.

@thehun06  I would really like to understand why you think that the ATF won't raid you after 88 days of stalling your application?  You've already admitted you are a felon, why wouldn't they raid you?

My pistol braces were not designed to be shouldered. Many of them suck at that. Especially if we are comparing to stocks which are much better at that. A pistol brace is a brace and a stock is a stock.

It may seem that these people are much more "lucky" when it comes to avoiding being thrown in a cage by law enforcement, but just like most cases with these sorts of things, they won't get you when it's a bunch of you all together showing your ass on social media or in the street "protesting", they get you one by one while you're at home in bed, or at work, or in your car. And you're dealing with it alone, and everybody looks on at you thinking "damn, glad that's not me". And they know it. And you know it. That's how these things are enforced, and that's why you cover your ass.

Threats and attempted intimidation from the comply side. Again.

I have been reading every single thread on braces since the 13th. I have noticed everyone posting in them fall in one of three categories.

1.) People who already have NFA items, already on a "list". do not mind being on a "list". or had plans of SBR-ing items anyways. People that just want to take advantage of the free stamp or get ahead in the wait list. People who are scared and in panic.

2.) People who do not think none of this is right, know the ATF and the powers that be are in the wrong, do not believe they have right to just write laws as they see fit, and will fight this to the end. People who are tired of just giving up 2A rights little by little every decade. People that don't want on their list. Some will not ever comply.

3.) People who seem to have a motive to encourage others to just roll over before it even gets posted in the Federal Register and becomes official. People who do not want others to fight this one bit. Do not even want people to wait and see how this plays out in the courts. People who do not want others to even question any of it and just form 1 their SBRs. People who just want others to give up their rights without wait or question.

Exactly

Maybe he don't have a dog. Raises his odds.

38.5% of all inmates in federal prisons are black which is racist according to the race baiters. The DOJ is taking a lot of heat from the race baiters as a result. So the DOJ is doing everything they can to get that number down, and the best way they can do that is to declare white Trump supporters the greatest threat to the nation and stop putting black people in prison.  Do you want to be a white conservative going up in front of an Obama appointed judge on an NFA violation? Not me Jack!

Good. Read the ruling over and over again before you start unsubstantiated “facts” because you haven’t said any…I hope between seeing what your eyes see and hearing what your ears hear…you use your brain too.

@rmdye the 88 days scare is just that. It is no way different than 88 days on your 4473. NFA doesn’t start your background on submission…your background starts just like on a 4473…when the examiner has your file and processes for approval. Just like when your FFL submits your background when buying a gun.

Again. I don’t like this either but understand the framework we operate in.

I have no desire to read unconstitutional “rules”, I’m heterosexual.

What about people under 21 that are able to own the current configuration but are prohibited from doing a Form 1?

And how about those under 18. If they can possess a rifle, why can they not possess a SBR?

Just asking for some thoughts from the hive.

How many illegal guns have you tried to buy on a 4473?

Rarely are first time offenders (felons) prosecuted at the fed level for gun violations. I would guess about 1% of our gun cases ever go to fed prosecution.

Someone a few pages ago mentioned that NOLO made a correction(s) after the posted video(s) at SHOT, what was/were the correction(s) made?

@nexttime did you read and full comprehended the rule layed out?

They can delay the submittal for 5 years all they want…88 days doesn’t start until your background gets processed by an examiner…just like when your FFL submits your 4473 info for a background…either check is on the 88 day hook…NFA or 4473…if your background gets closed after 88 days…you have things to clear up either way.

Unless you are registering a completed 80% lower and your a felon…this 88 day thing is blown way overboard…

Most of us that have say a PCC that we completed a 4473 on already…do not really have to worry about the 88 day mark unless you’ve become a felon or have something else on your background that would prevent you from possessing said firearm.

I can only talk about my internal thought process.  I have submitted form 1s and gotten them approved in the past.  I lived thru the whole recent form 1 suppressor debacle and I can say the ATF did everything they could to have law abiding citizens arrested.

I have non-res CCW in just about every state that allows it.   I'm on many many lists.   That's not my concern.  

My concern is that an agency that is known for killing innocent people is asking people to admit to a felony on the hopes to get something for free later AND not get charged with a felony.  Then when people point out how the ATF has admitted and stated that they will take enforcement action against anyone who doesn't get their background check done in time when we have no oversight over the ATF intentionally delaying that background check that is the real issue.   It's a scam by the ATF to arrest and jail people who disagree with the current political regime in power.  It's that simple.    

So, am I in group 1, 2 or 3?

I see. You don’t like being called out and proven wrong.

I don’t like this anymore than most but at least I don’t gaslight the situation…

Hmmm.   Let's jump to when the background check countdown starts.  Then ATF sits on it past the 88 days and does nothing at all, just ignores your application because they are "too busy".  After that countdown, are you now a felon in possession (you admitted you are a felon, remember) and you have already provided proof to the ATF that they can use to arrest you?    Yes or No?

So are you saying the pistol configs you have are illegal?

Lol. The pistol you posses now and after whatever 120 days remains a pistol…if you attach a brace…that’s on you and all of us. It’s not hard to understand.

If you get denied a NFA check for a background…you need to clear up whatever is on there or you are a felon. YOU CAN STILL REAPPLY after a denial and be in compliance with a brace pistol. But if your background gets flagged for a felony…it should trigger an enforcement action as you can’t posses firearms as felon.

So, you're scared.  We see that.  You want to be ahead of the curve and take no responsibility to defend your rights.  Perhaps you should just go ahead and turn them in then.  You know, to get ahead of the curve.

JFC