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Posted: 12/19/2021 2:13:30 PM EDT
[#1]
I’m sure it depends on the drill sarge.
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Posted: 12/19/2021 2:14:09 PM EDT
[#2]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Sling all the things.  It really depends on the person. I cannot get low enough in the prone to actually touch the mag to the ground. Too much of a strain on my neck. My 19 yo nephew on the other hand, is as flexible as a noodle and can probably do it. Some Army ranges also have nothing but soft sand or loose gravel that makes magazines sink in too low. Marksmanship is all about consistency, and consistency starts with range set-ups. Remember the old "foxhole" supported position where some ranges had a concrete tube that stuck a good foot above the surrounding surface? The Army will always be its own worst enemy. |
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Posted: 12/19/2021 2:43:12 PM EDT
[#3]
That dude’s on the periphery instead of inside for a reason, he’s fucking wrong. Every ODA and ODD veteran I’ve trained under have stated the exact opposite, and I have never experienced or seen a malfunction from this while shooting or training others.
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Posted: 12/19/2021 2:54:04 PM EDT
[#4]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Gross. Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: Yall dont put a harris bipod on all your rifles? Gross. Yep. Waste of money. You can get a knock off, on Amazon for 20 bucks that's just as good. 
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Posted: 12/19/2021 3:00:55 PM EDT
[#5]
Quote HistoryQuoted: The military still teaches how to shoot a rifle? Quote HistoryQuoted: The military still teaches how to shoot a rifle? Quoted: I am *not* against using the mag as a support but I'd prefer to use my sling as the support because a) I know how to use it properly (thanks Appleseed!), b) I prefer 20-rd mags when I am prone anyway, because c) I don't want the mag of my rifle to be a leverage/hinge point. Not at all surprised that a military branch has guidelines that are not uniformly followed. Maybe all the brainpower is being dedicated to SHARP and tranny-sensitivity training.  Theres always time to get additional training in. It just takes people to care and implement it. I can guarantee if you have issues you gentleman will be able to correct them through enough pressure and planning. |
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Posted: 12/19/2021 3:20:30 PM EDT
[#6]
A shooting thread in GD!
 I shoot off the mag all the time. For a quick, field expedient support, it’s great. I don’t think it came up when I was an 11B. 30 round magazine’s were rare as hens teeth. |
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Posted: 12/19/2021 3:25:19 PM EDT
[#7]
 Magazine monopod for the win.... |
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Posted: 12/19/2021 3:36:00 PM EDT
[#8]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Being a big fat person impedes magazine-monopod shooting. Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: I think that scenario exists but it will be because you want to get your rifle higher off the ground to shoot over an obstruction and you will probably have your forearm held awkwardly as high up as possible with your body in some weird contorted position. I don't think getting in comfortable low prone and lifting the built in magazine/monopod a 1/2" off the ground for a purely administrative PRONE, UNSUPPORTED is going to come up much. Being a big fat person impedes magazine-monopod shooting. I suppose it would. They might need 40 rounders or even 60's. |
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Posted: 12/19/2021 4:50:33 PM EDT
[#9]
Actually, the 40 rd PMAGS are just the right length for mag supported prone.
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Posted: 12/19/2021 4:57:37 PM EDT
[#10]
Probe unsupported to me means nothing on the rifle touches and no sling (or coat, glove, etc).
It's still a useful position to be comfortable in. If you pick up your nephews .22LR Cricket rifle to take out a rabid animal, you're going to be more stable in prone. |
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Posted: 12/19/2021 5:05:00 PM EDT
[#11]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Probe unsupported to me means nothing on the rifle touches and no sling (or coat, glove, etc). It's still a useful position to be comfortable in. If you pick up your nephews .22LR Cricket rifle to take out a rabid animal, you're going to be more stable in prone. 1 probe unsupported sounds like a urology exam 2 i aint laying down to put down a rabid animal |
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Posted: 12/19/2021 5:16:39 PM EDT
[#12]
Quote HistoryQuoted: <——-civilian for life but I was taught by my Father and every other class/training I’ve taken NOT to use the magazine as a monopod. Iirc- Appleseed teaches that using the mag as a support just creates another point of contact that can throw off a shot. However, like one Instructor told me, at the end of the day putting rounds on target is what counts, do what works for you. How can a stable point of contact throw off a shot? Did he say bipod are outdated as well? |
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Posted: 12/19/2021 6:00:52 PM EDT
[#13]
Quote HistoryQuoted: I don't think it would be a significant source of malfunctions. It will change POI, though. I seem to recall it's fairly noticeable with AK pattern rifles. Resting the rifle on the mag causes the noticeable shift? |
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Posted: 12/19/2021 7:35:51 PM EDT
[#14]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Resting the rifle on the mag causes the noticeable shift? Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: I don't think it would be a significant source of malfunctions. It will change POI, though. I seem to recall it's fairly noticeable with AK pattern rifles. Resting the rifle on the mag causes the noticeable shift? |
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Posted: 12/19/2021 8:44:17 PM EDT
[#15]
Quote HistoryQuoted: That's been my observation. But, it's heavily dependent upon the rifle. With the AK pattern rifles, it's enough that I've seen noticeable shifts in 25M Alt Course scores. Every CW I have shot that had prone shooting positions, I grounded the mag and cleared the range. Past 300 at east and even off the swinging bridge. Ground your mag and shoot, if it doesn't work with a modern AR there is some thing wrong with the AR, not the position. |
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Posted: 12/19/2021 10:31:36 PM EDT
[#16]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Yes. Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: Wouldn't resting the mag on the ground make it supported? Yes. No! Read the manual. |
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Posted: 12/19/2021 11:26:25 PM EDT
[#17]
Quote HistoryQuoted: We teach our people that it's fine to ground the mag and that the idea it'll cause malfunctions is outdated bullshit. True and not true, the tolerance of the Rifle and the Mag can cause miss feeds, but no booms like urban myth has it. |
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Posted: 12/19/2021 11:29:33 PM EDT
[#18]
I remember the no mag on ground lecture in 1996. I have been shooting my rifles with the mag on the ground as an improvised monopod and it does not induce malfunctions and increases stability so I can ring steel out to 400+ yards. Another Big Army WTF!
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Posted: 12/19/2021 11:58:40 PM EDT
[#19]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Every CW I have shot that had prone shooting positions, I grounded the mag and cleared the range. Past 300 at east and even off the swinging bridge. Ground your mag and shoot, if it doesn't work with a modern AR there is some thing wrong with the AR, not the position. Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: That's been my observation. But, it's heavily dependent upon the rifle. With the AK pattern rifles, it's enough that I've seen noticeable shifts in 25M Alt Course scores. Every CW I have shot that had prone shooting positions, I grounded the mag and cleared the range. Past 300 at east and even off the swinging bridge. Ground your mag and shoot, if it doesn't work with a modern AR there is some thing wrong with the AR, not the position. Now with my AK pattern rifles, the difference will show up at the minute-of-torso level. |
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Posted: 12/20/2021 12:06:44 AM EDT
[#20]
Quote HistoryQuoted: I disagree that using the magazine as a support won't cause malfunctions. I won't do it and I will advise anyone who asks against it. I’ve shot with my magazine on the ground for 20 years and never had an issue. Why would you advise against being as stable as possible? |
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Posted: 12/20/2021 12:10:59 AM EDT
[#21]
Went through basic at Ft Benning back in 1992 (A Co 1/50th 3rd Platoon, Terminators!). We were told it’s unacceptable for the mag to touch the ground. Personally I believe it doesn’t induce malfunctions, but we were told our rifle should never touch the ground. I agree with the poster back on page 1 that stated that if the rifle has an additional point of contact that there is more of a possibility to throw off a shot. I would NEVER use the mag for a monopod for that reason.
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Posted: 12/20/2021 12:33:33 AM EDT
[#22]
Quoted: I had some kids fresh back from basic training and was doing some PMI. I was surprised that a few of them were still being taught (yelled at) that having your magazine resting on the ground is unacceptable and will induce malfunctions. TC 3-22.9 clearly states the exact opposite of this: https://www.ar15.com/media/mediaFiles/188236/Screenshot_20211218-190411_Adobe_Acrobat-2209336.jpg I also made a social media post about actually reading the material the Army puts out. I recieved a reply from a gentleman on the periphery of DEVGRU who informed me that if my mag is on the ground in the prone my firing position sucks. He didn't elaborate further so that brings me here. Can someone fill me on why having the mag on the ground in the prone makes for a shitty prone unsupported firing position? Why does the chart show a left-handed shooter? |
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Posted: 12/20/2021 12:38:13 AM EDT
[#23]
Quote HistoryQuoted: What scenario exists that I can shoot prone unsupported but I cannot shoot prone supported? Army rifle qual? |
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Posted: 12/20/2021 12:40:48 AM EDT
[#24]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Army rifle qual? I was taught in 2008 at Ft. Benning to put that magazine on the ground ! SSgt Meadows "if you ain't cheatin, you ain't trying" |
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Posted: 12/20/2021 12:42:00 AM EDT
[#25]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Oops. A smoothbore musket wasn't accurate past 70 or 80 yds. for a torso hit, let alone at 300 yds. PS. There were some black powder weapons with rifled barrels in those days and they could take out targets at 3 to 4 times the accuracy limit of the smoothbores. Learned that in Appleseed. You'd be surprised. |
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Posted: 12/20/2021 2:50:25 AM EDT
[#26]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Resting the rifle on the mag causes the noticeable shift? Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: I don't think it would be a significant source of malfunctions. It will change POI, though. I seem to recall it's fairly noticeable with AK pattern rifles. Resting the rifle on the mag causes the noticeable shift? Wont affect your POI unless you're moving your support hand from the handguard to the magwell, even then it would be mostly unnoticeable unless you have some kind of gorilla grip on the handguard with a lot of lateral pressure. |
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Posted: 12/20/2021 3:33:47 AM EDT
[#27]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Actually, the 40 rd PMAGS are just the right length for mag supported prone. This is especially true if you're wearing plates. I can go monopod on 30 round mags without plates, but I can't with plates. However, the 40 round pmags are the perfect length for going monopod with plates IME. |
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Posted: 12/20/2021 3:57:42 AM EDT
[#28]
The only time I ever saw this made into a big deal was around the mid 90s at the FATS marksmanship training building at MCB Quantico.
We (Army) were guests of the Marines and were allowed to try it. One of the Marine instructors assigned to the building saw a guy resting the magazine and went off on a 10 minute rant about it. LOL. |
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Posted: 12/20/2021 4:08:44 AM EDT
[#29]
Magazine on the ground was the technique taught when I went to SDM school in 2010
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Posted: 12/20/2021 6:28:43 AM EDT
[#30]
A rifleman either has learned the benefit of obtaining maximum support by slurping into the absolute best level of supported position possible, given the available terrain and the rifle....or they're ignorant.
There are plenty of times when other options are better than using the mag as a monopod, but it's also true that in many cases the mag is the absolute best form of support. A shooter who believes "using the mag is bad!" is almost invariably found to be lacking when actually using a rifle against something other than a 100 meter paper target. Appleseed is a great example of Fudd mindset. "We're here to teach you the fundamental of marksmanship, circle 1778, and anything that's different than this is heretical madness!" A rifleman has to be adaptable to what's in front of them. The Appleseed sling-dependent mindset is a snare that catches too many minds. Learn the fundamentals of trigger control and sight alignment, then learn how to find a steady position no matter what weapon you have, what firing point you're using, or what conditions you're in. The mag is a useful tool, just like the sling, the bipod, the beanbag, the fist, etc etc etc. |
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Posted: 12/20/2021 7:10:17 AM EDT
[#31]
Just did my first Run N Gun and I used the magazine as a base for way more than prone with no ill effects. All of my combat classes I've taken have taught to use the mag as support. It's not just prone, but any obstacle (cars) and structure.
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Posted: 12/20/2021 7:41:23 AM EDT
[#32]
None of my AR's or magazines malfunction if I use the mag as a monopod. I just went through a patrol rifle course, and there were zero failures from anyone doing this.
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Posted: 12/20/2021 8:11:49 AM EDT
[#33]
Quote HistoryQuoted: What scenario exists that I can shoot prone unsupported but I cannot shoot prone supported? 
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Posted: 12/20/2021 9:05:02 AM EDT
[#34]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Went through basic at Ft Benning back in 1992 (A Co 1/50th 3rd Platoon, Terminators!). We were told it’s unacceptable for the mag to touch the ground. Personally I believe it doesn’t induce malfunctions, but we were told our rifle should never touch the ground. I agree with the poster back on page 1 that stated that if the rifle has an additional point of contact that there is more of a possibility to throw off a shot. I would NEVER use the mag for a monopod for that reason. So the point of contact is worse than biological instability? |
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Posted: 12/20/2021 9:07:19 AM EDT
[#35]
Like the need to stagger gas rings...I see the "Mono podding your gun on a magazine will induce a malfunction" is still strong....
 I have and will continue to use that technique. I watched a half dozen classes with about 30 shooters per class run a drill (Moddified Navy Qual) where you go down in the prone and hammer out 5 rds at a 50 yd target, attempting to get all 5 rds in a 8" circle... over multiple iterations..... And guess what???? no one had a malfunction. good guns with good magazines... |
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Posted: 12/20/2021 10:23:25 AM EDT
[#36]
Quote HistoryQuote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: What scenario exists that I can shoot prone unsupported but I cannot shoot prone supported? http://longtailpipe.com/wp-content/uploads/2015/07/1280-empty-parking-lot-rebranding-transportation.jpg 
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Posted: 12/20/2021 11:36:01 AM EDT
[#37]
Quote HistoryQuoted: I am *not* against using the mag as a support but I'd prefer to use my sling as the support because a) I know how to use it properly (thanks Appleseed!), b) I prefer 20-rd mags when I am prone anyway, because c) I don't want the mag of my rifle to be a leverage/hinge point. Not at all surprised that a military branch has guidelines that are not uniformly followed. Maybe all the brainpower is being dedicated to SHARP and tranny-sensitivity training. I bet this is closer to the truth than anyone wants to admit
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Posted: 12/20/2021 12:39:52 PM EDT
[#38]
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Posted: 12/20/2021 3:27:35 PM EDT
[#39]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Also called the Pennsylvania rifle (probably not by Daniel Boone, though!), yeah. I'm going with kentucky rifle. Chill Wills didn't make a movie called Pennsylvania rifle 
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Posted: 12/20/2021 3:56:33 PM EDT
[#40]
You can hit just fine with the mag as a monopod.
You can also get malfunctions with some combinations of rifle and magazine if you're doing it in a really retarded fashion and one or both components are shitty. Don't be a retard using shitty equipment and practice properly with your stuff. Problem solved. |
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Posted: 12/20/2021 5:21:23 PM EDT
[#41]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Some Army ranges also have nothing but soft sand or loose gravel that makes magazines sink in too low. Marksmanship is all about consistency, and consistency starts with range set-ups. Remember the old "foxhole" supported position where some ranges had a concrete tube that stuck a good foot above the surrounding surface? The Army will always be its own worst enemy. I remember those from Basic...I had to stand on rocks in order to be able to see over the rim. |
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Posted: 12/20/2021 6:07:11 PM EDT
[#42]
I have never done that.
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Posted: 12/20/2021 6:12:01 PM EDT
[#43]
Quote HistoryQuoted: I have never done that. Shot with the mag on ground? |
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Posted: 12/20/2021 7:51:50 PM EDT
[#44]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Rifles built to or better than the TDP spec do not allow the magazine to engage the bolt carrier in such a way to cause too much friction with the magazine having pressure applied to the bottom. This. The magazine locks into the rifle on the magazine release. Properly specced release and magazine will not cause the bolt carrier to change its path. It is possible to rely too much on the magazine as a monopod, though, particularly on rough or uneven terrain. Using both elbows is preferable then. |
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Posted: 12/20/2021 8:04:36 PM EDT
[#45]
I I have been mag-o-podding for years and it's never caused me an issue. I get as flat as possible while still getting a good sight picture.
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Posted: 12/20/2021 8:55:40 PM EDT
[#46]
For unsupported, you cant use it.
For foxhole supported you can rest your hand under the weapon on top of the sandbag, and rest the magazine. The pressure of maybe the magazine moving upward 1/64 or one gazillionth of an inch does nothing. Never had a jam. Always increases stability. |
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Posted: 12/20/2021 11:43:34 PM EDT
[#47]
Quote HistoryQuoted: For unsupported, you cant use it. For foxhole supported you can rest your hand under the weapon on top of the sandbag, and rest the magazine. The pressure of maybe the magazine moving upward 1/64 or one gazillionth of an inch does nothing. Never had a jam. Always increases stability. 
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Posted: 12/21/2021 1:22:34 AM EDT
[#48]
Quote HistoryQuoted: For unsupported, you cant use it. For foxhole supported you can rest your hand under the weapon on top of the sandbag, and rest the magazine. The pressure of maybe the magazine moving upward 1/64 or one gazillionth of an inch does nothing. Never had a jam. Always increases stability. That's not true. |
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Posted: 12/21/2021 1:25:39 AM EDT
[#49]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Went through basic at Ft Benning back in 1992 (A Co 1/50th 3rd Platoon, Terminators!). We were told it’s unacceptable for the mag to touch the ground. Personally I believe it doesn’t induce malfunctions, but we were told our rifle should never touch the ground. I agree with the poster back on page 1 that stated that if the rifle has an additional point of contact that there is more of a possibility to throw off a shot. I would NEVER use the mag for a monopod for that reason. Your Drill Sergeant was a retard and your logic is the opposite of reality. |
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Posted: 12/21/2021 4:01:06 AM EDT
[#50]
Quote HistoryQuoted: When I was still working I was fortunate enough to get to train with some top instructors in the industry, folks with multiple deployments and numerous engagements. Mag in the dirt, utilized as a monopod, was taught. Guns ran and hits were made. |
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