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Posted: 8/8/2023 1:30:20 PM EDT
[#1]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By BMSMB: 45 seconds into this video.  https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oxUMYMANY9UTo bad simping your gear won't make you any better at shooting it. Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By BMSMB: Originally Posted By WhiskersTheCat: Sure I believe that that's why I bought the more rugged RMR Holofags btfo yet again 45 seconds into this video. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oxUMYMANY9UTo bad simping your gear won't make you any better at shooting it. Yeah it will I just qualified GM from simping |
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Posted: 8/8/2023 1:42:18 PM EDT
[#2]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By WhiskersTheCat: Yeah it will I just qualified GM from simping Only if your simping for Tony Cowden |
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Posted: 8/8/2023 7:00:37 PM EDT
[#3]
Thing arrived.
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Posted: 8/8/2023 7:12:21 PM EDT
[#4]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By RustedAce: Thing arrived. https://www.ar15.com/media/mediaFiles/47980/IMG_2539-2913021.jpg XC nice choice |
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Posted: 8/8/2023 7:18:03 PM EDT
[#5]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By WhiskersTheCat: XC nice choice Had big coupon, might as well go big. |
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Posted: 8/8/2023 7:24:50 PM EDT
[#6]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By RustedAce: Thing arrived. https://www.ar15.com/media/mediaFiles/47980/IMG_2539-2913021.jpg  Is it ported and compensated? Or are those just slide cuts? |
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Posted: 8/8/2023 7:27:34 PM EDT
[#7]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By Missilegeek: https://www.gif-maniac.com/gifs/53/52919.gif Is it ported and compensated? Or are those just slide cuts? The XC comes comped. I don't think Staccato does porting. |
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Posted: 8/8/2023 7:31:55 PM EDT
[#8]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By AK-12: The XC comes comped. I don't think Staccato does porting. Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By AK-12: Originally Posted By Missilegeek: https://www.gif-maniac.com/gifs/53/52919.gif Is it ported and compensated? Or are those just slide cuts? The XC comes comped. I don't think Staccato does porting. I see. Not to derail or go off on a rant, but why do so many companies add unnecessary slide cuts? I don't want extra holes that just let the dirt in TYVM. |
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Posted: 8/8/2023 7:33:54 PM EDT
[#9]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By Missilegeek: I see. Not to derail or go off on a rant, but why do so many companies add unnecessary slide cuts? I don't want extra holes that just let the dirt in TYVM. Less reciprocating mass = easier to return to target |
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Posted: 8/8/2023 7:35:59 PM EDT
[#10]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By BMSMB: Less reciprocating mass = easier to return to target Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By BMSMB: Originally Posted By Missilegeek: I see. Not to derail or go off on a rant, but why do so many companies add unnecessary slide cuts? I don't want extra holes that just let the dirt in TYVM. Less reciprocating mass = easier to return to target 
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Posted: 8/8/2023 8:16:36 PM EDT
[#11]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By BMSMB: Less reciprocating mass = easier to return to target Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By BMSMB: Originally Posted By Missilegeek: I see. Not to derail or go off on a rant, but why do so many companies add unnecessary slide cuts? I don't want extra holes that just let the dirt in TYVM. Less reciprocating mass = easier to return to target That and aesthetics mostly. I don’t really think fully cutting through the slide provides any additional traction/benefit compared to just normal serrations |
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Posted: 8/8/2023 8:56:22 PM EDT
[#12]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By Missilegeek: I see. Not to derail or go off on a rant, but why do so many companies add unnecessary slide cuts? I don't want extra holes that just let the dirt in TYVM. I don't like holes in my slide either. Staccato has options for both |
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USA
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Posted: 8/9/2023 9:25:46 AM EDT
[#13]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By BMSMB: Less reciprocating mass = easier to return to target Yep and to keep the slide speed correct. The more efficient or heavier the comp the more you have to cut out of the slide to make the gun run |
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Posted: 8/9/2023 10:28:32 AM EDT
[#14]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By BaconFat: Yep and to keep the slide speed correct. The more efficient or heavier the comp the more you have to cut out of the slide to make the gun run Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By BaconFat: Originally Posted By BMSMB: Less reciprocating mass = easier to return to target Yep and to keep the slide speed correct. The more efficient or heavier the comp the more you have to cut out of the slide to make the gun run That’s certainly one of the methods for dealing with compensated pistols. There are a combination of other factors/variables you can adjust to tune (or ruin if done poorly) the reliability of a comped gun |
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IN, USA
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Posted: 8/9/2023 10:42:31 AM EDT
[Last Edit: RottenPumpkin]
[#15]
66.66% of my 9mm pistols are now superior.
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Posted: 8/9/2023 10:51:13 AM EDT
[#16]
I had 1 as a novelty. Now I need it. I can't see that stupid front site.
 Getting old sucks |
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USA
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Posted: 8/9/2023 1:19:15 PM EDT
[#17]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By Rudukai13: That’s certainly one of the methods for dealing with compensated pistols. There are a combination of other factors/variables you can adjust to tune (or ruin if done poorly) the reliability of a comped gun And what are the other method? |
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Posted: 8/9/2023 1:21:13 PM EDT
[#18]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By RustedAce: Thing arrived. https://www.ar15.com/media/mediaFiles/47980/IMG_2539-2913021.jpg That gets me tight in the pants. |
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Posted: 8/9/2023 2:55:15 PM EDT
[#19]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By BaconFat: And what are the other method? Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By BaconFat: Originally Posted By Rudukai13: That’s certainly one of the methods for dealing with compensated pistols. There are a combination of other factors/variables you can adjust to tune (or ruin if done poorly) the reliability of a comped gun And what are the other method? Reciprocating weight, operating spring (recoil spring, mainspring if applicable, etc) weights, and overall energy of the load you’re shooting has been my experience. The energy that the compensator uses to counteract recoil/muzzle climb is being taken from the energy that’s generally used to fully cycle the action. It’s why a lot of people report that their pistol which was previously 100% reliable on standard pressure 115gr target loads suddenly started having weak ejection or failure to eject problems on the same ammo after adding a compensator. Once the comp robs a portion of the energy from the ammo to counteract recoil, the overall system no longer has enough energy to overcome the reciprocating weight and/or operating springs in order to fully cycle the action and put a new round in the chamber. Reduce the reciprocating weight, lighten the operating springs, and/or use loads that have a higher overall energy level and those problems will go away. With the XC, Staccato uses slide milling cuts and a much lighter recoil spring (7 lbs if my memory is correct) to account for the energy loss due to the compensator and still keep the pistol as reliable as possible with the widest variety of factory ammunition |
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Posted: 8/9/2023 3:44:01 PM EDT
[#20]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By Rudukai13: Reciprocating weight, operating spring (recoil spring, mainspring if applicable, etc) weights, and overall energy of the load you’re shooting has been my experience. The energy that the compensator uses to counteract recoil/muzzle climb is being taken from the energy that’s generally used to fully cycle the action. It’s why a lot of people report that their pistol which was previously 100% reliable on standard pressure 115gr target loads suddenly started having weak ejection or failure to eject problems on the same ammo after adding a compensator. Once the comp robs a portion of the energy from the ammo to counteract recoil, the overall system no longer has enough energy to overcome the reciprocating weight and/or operating springs in order to fully cycle the action and put a new round in the chamber. Reduce the reciprocating weight, lighten the operating springs, and/or use loads that have a higher overall energy level and those problems will go away. With the XC, Staccato uses slide milling cuts and a much lighter recoil spring (7 lbs if my memory is correct) to account for the energy loss due to the compensator and still keep the pistol as reliable as possible with the widest variety of factory ammunition Good God no. That's is completely wrong. |
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Posted: 8/9/2023 3:50:12 PM EDT
[#21]
Shot dots.
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Posted: 8/9/2023 4:02:48 PM EDT
[#22]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By RustedAce: Shot dots. https://www.ar15.com/media/mediaFiles/47980/IMG_2543-2913881.jpg How did you like the new one? |
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Posted: 8/9/2023 4:09:58 PM EDT
[Last Edit: Rudukai13]
[#23]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By BMSMB: Good God no. That's is completely wrong. Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By BMSMB: Originally Posted By Rudukai13: Reciprocating weight, operating spring (recoil spring, mainspring if applicable, etc) weights, and overall energy of the load you’re shooting has been my experience. The energy that the compensator uses to counteract recoil/muzzle climb is being taken from the energy that’s generally used to fully cycle the action. It’s why a lot of people report that their pistol which was previously 100% reliable on standard pressure 115gr target loads suddenly started having weak ejection or failure to eject problems on the same ammo after adding a compensator. Once the comp robs a portion of the energy from the ammo to counteract recoil, the overall system no longer has enough energy to overcome the reciprocating weight and/or operating springs in order to fully cycle the action and put a new round in the chamber. Reduce the reciprocating weight, lighten the operating springs, and/or use loads that have a higher overall energy level and those problems will go away. With the XC, Staccato uses slide milling cuts and a much lighter recoil spring (7 lbs if my memory is correct) to account for the energy loss due to the compensator and still keep the pistol as reliable as possible with the widest variety of factory ammunition Good God no. That's is completely wrong.  I cannot state how annoyingly often people seem to think “I’m right you’re wrong” is a cogent, useful argument on this god forsaken website.If I’m wrong, then I’m wrong. But it would help me and all the other members here if you further explained your assertion |
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Posted: 8/9/2023 4:18:41 PM EDT
[Last Edit: BMSMB]
[#24]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By Rudukai13: I disagree, but it would be helpful to better understand what I’m disagreeing with if you explained your assertion beyond “that’s completely wrong” A comp is not stealing energy. It is requiring more energy for the overall system to reliably cycle. Adding a comp does not reduce the amount of rearward pressure that the gasses apply in the breach face. |
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Posted: 8/9/2023 4:27:18 PM EDT
[Last Edit: November5]
[#25]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By BMSMB: A comp is not stealing energy. It is requiring more energy for the overall system to reliably cycle. Adding a comp does not reduce the amount of rearward pressure that the gasses apply in the breach face. Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By BMSMB: Originally Posted By Rudukai13: I disagree, but it would be helpful to better understand what I'm disagreeing with if you explained your assertion beyond "that's completely wrong" A comp is not stealing energy. It is requiring more energy for the overall system to reliably cycle. Adding a comp does not reduce the amount of rearward pressure that the gasses apply in the breach face. |
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Posted: 8/9/2023 4:30:48 PM EDT
[#26]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By November5: Correct, it doesn't reduce the rearward pressure, it counteracts it. It counteracts it in terms of the entire system, but it doesn't reduce the force going into the slide (ie cycling). A barrel with a mounted comp is going to require more energy to move, hence the need for more energy. The comp isn't stealing any of the force that would be used for cycling and putting it towards recoil or muzzle flip reduction though. |
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Posted: 8/9/2023 4:58:07 PM EDT
[#27]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By BMSMB: It counteracts it in terms of the entire system, but it doesn't reduce the force going into the slide (ie cycling). A barrel with a mounted comp is going to require more energy to move, hence the need for more energy. The comp isn't stealing any of the force that would be used for cycling and putting it towards recoil or muzzle flip reduction though. Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By BMSMB: Originally Posted By November5: Correct, it doesn't reduce the rearward pressure, it counteracts it. It counteracts it in terms of the entire system, but it doesn't reduce the force going into the slide (ie cycling). A barrel with a mounted comp is going to require more energy to move, hence the need for more energy. The comp isn't stealing any of the force that would be used for cycling and putting it towards recoil or muzzle flip reduction though. The minuscule amount of weight added by a muzzle mounted comp isn't enough to degrade reliability significantly. Browning style recoil handguns are generally tolerant of roughly 3-4 ounces being added to the reciprocating mass. Dropping locking block style actions, usually up to about 8 ounces. |
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Posted: 8/9/2023 5:17:51 PM EDT
[#28]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By BMSMB: A comp is not stealing energy. It is requiring more energy for the overall system to reliably cycle. Adding a comp does not reduce the amount of rearward pressure that the gasses apply in the breach face. Yes, it does. The compensator works at peak efficiency when the bullet hasn’t exited or “uncorked” from the end of the compensator, at which point the expanding gases that would otherwise be applying pressure to the breach face escape upward from the expansion ports, which is what provides the force to counteract recoil and muzzle flip. Which is why you need to either add more input force using hotter ammo or reduce the amount of force required to cycle the slide by reducing the reciprocating mass or the action spring weights |
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Posted: 8/9/2023 5:28:48 PM EDT
[Last Edit: BMSMB]
[#29]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By Rudukai13: Yes, it does. The compensator works at peak efficiency when the bullet hasn’t exited or “uncorked” from the end of the compensator, at which point the expanding gases that would otherwise be applying pressure to the breach face escape upward from the expansion ports, which is what provides the force to counteract recoil and muzzle flip. Which is why you need to either add more input force using hotter ammo or reduce the amount of force required to cycle the slide by reducing the reciprocating mass or the action spring weights A compensator is typically added on at the end of a barrel, some are cut into the existing barrel, but thats not the typical application... so any gasses escaping upwards through the comp would already have reached a point where they are escaping in all directions and would have no impact on the rearward force the gasses are applying. |
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Posted: 8/9/2023 5:36:48 PM EDT
[#30]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By BMSMB: A compensator is typically added on at the end of a barrel, some are cut into the existing barrel, but thats not the typical application... so any gasses escaping upwards through the comp would already have reached a point where they are escaping in all directions and would have no impact on the rearward force the gasses are applying. Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By BMSMB: Originally Posted By Rudukai13: Yes, it does. The compensator works at peak efficiency when the bullet hasn’t exited or “uncorked” from the end of the compensator, at which point the expanding gases that would otherwise be applying pressure to the breach face escape upward from the expansion ports, which is what provides the force to counteract recoil and muzzle flip. Which is why you need to either add more input force using hotter ammo or reduce the amount of force required to cycle the slide by reducing the reciprocating mass or the action spring weights A compensator is typically added on at the end of a barrel, some are cut into the existing barrel, but thats not the typical application... so any gasses escaping upwards through the comp would already have reached a point where they are escaping in all directions and would have no impact on the rearward force the gasses are applying. Then why in practice do people run into problems with not having enough energy after adding a thread-on compensator to the end of a barrel? Why do you need to add more energy if the compensator isn’t diverting/leaching/stealing some of the energy that was already present? |
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Posted: 8/9/2023 5:47:13 PM EDT
[#31]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By Rudukai13: Then why in practice do people run into problems with not having enough energy after adding a thread-on compensator to the end of a barrel? Why do you need to add more energy if the compensator isn’t diverting/leaching/stealing some of the energy that was already present? More moving mass requires more energy. |
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Posted: 8/9/2023 5:56:07 PM EDT
[#32]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By BMSMB: More moving mass requires more energy. Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By BMSMB: Originally Posted By Rudukai13: Then why in practice do people run into problems with not having enough energy after adding a thread-on compensator to the end of a barrel? Why do you need to add more energy if the compensator isn’t diverting/leaching/stealing some of the energy that was already present? More moving mass requires more energy. No, you’re thinking about this in terms of a non-dynamic barrel weight. I’m sorry but in this case you’re wrong |
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Posted: 8/9/2023 6:05:12 PM EDT
[#33]
Dear god what sins have I committed and what have I done to initiate the unleashing of physics nerds on this thread?
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Posted: 8/9/2023 6:09:34 PM EDT
[#34]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By Rudukai13: No, you’re thinking about this in terms of a non-dynamic barrel weight. I’m sorry but in this case you’re wrong Have you ever heard of a comp causing issues on a PCC? What about an AR? I'm thinking in terms of non dynamic barrel weight? Did you miss the moving mass part of my comment? Weight on the end of the barrel is going to have a different impact than weight on the slide. |
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USA
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Posted: 8/9/2023 6:16:28 PM EDT
[Last Edit: BaconFat]
[#35]
Edit.
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Posted: 8/9/2023 6:16:34 PM EDT
[#36]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By BMSMB: Have you ever heard of a comp causing issues on a PCC? What about an AR? I'm thinking in terms of non dynamic barrel weight? Did you miss the moving mass part of my comment? Weight on the end of the barrel is going to have a different impact than weight on the slide. Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By BMSMB: Originally Posted By Rudukai13: No, you're thinking about this in terms of a non-dynamic barrel weight. I'm sorry but in this case you're wrong Have you ever heard of a comp causing issues on a PCC? What about an AR? I'm thinking in terms of non dynamic barrel weight? Did you miss the moving mass part of my comment? Weight on the end of the barrel is going to have a different impact than weight on the slide. |
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Posted: 8/9/2023 6:25:58 PM EDT
[Last Edit: BMSMB]
[#37]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By November5: You can run weights up to 3-4 ounces on the barrel without affecting reliability. I've never heard of someone running barrel weights... not saying it's not done, but I know nothing about it. It could also be the downward force at the end of the barrel is making it harder to break lockup, thus requiring more rearward force. |
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WI, USA
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Posted: 8/9/2023 6:26:24 PM EDT
[#38]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By Rudukai13: at which point the expanding gases that would otherwise be applying pressure to the breach face escape upward from the expansion ports, which is what provides the force to counteract recoil and muzzle flip. The direction the gases escape has zero bearing on the pressure applied to the breech face. |
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Posted: 8/9/2023 6:28:50 PM EDT
[#39]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By BMSMB: I've never heard of someone rubbing barrel weights... not saying it's not done, but I know nothing about it. It could also be the downward force at the end of the barrel is making it harder to break lockup, thus requiring more reward force. Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By BMSMB: Originally Posted By November5: You can run weights up to 3-4 ounces on the barrel without affecting reliability. I've never heard of someone rubbing barrel weights... not saying it's not done, but I know nothing about it. It could also be the downward force at the end of the barrel is making it harder to break lockup, thus requiring more reward force. |
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Posted: 8/9/2023 6:31:35 PM EDT
[Last Edit: November5]
[#40]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By Rudukai13: Yes, it does. The compensator works at peak efficiency when the bullet hasn't exited or "uncorked" from the end of the compensator, at which point the expanding gases that would otherwise be applying pressure to the breach face escape upward from the expansion ports, which is what provides the force to counteract recoil and muzzle flip. Which is why you need to either add more input force using hotter ammo or reduce the amount of force required to cycle the slide by reducing the reciprocating mass or the action spring weights |
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Posted: 8/9/2023 6:36:49 PM EDT
[Last Edit: BMSMB]
[#41]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By November5: Suppressors and old bullseye guns Browning style recoil can take up to 3-4 ounces before affecting reliability. Dropping locking blocks can take up to around 8. Suppressors on handguns also require a piston adapter no? I've also seen them cause tons of issues, even with the additional back pressure. |
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Posted: 8/9/2023 6:42:51 PM EDT
[#42]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By BMSMB: Suppressors on handguns also require a piston adapter no? I've also seen them cause tons of issues, even with the additional back pressure. Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By BMSMB: Originally Posted By November5: Suppressors and old bullseye guns Browning style recoil can take up to 3-4 ounces before affecting reliability. Dropping locking blocks can take up to around 8. Suppressors on handguns also require a piston adapter no? I've also seen them cause tons of issues, even with the additional back pressure. |
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Posted: 8/9/2023 6:46:54 PM EDT
[#43]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By November5: Only if they exceed the weight limit. You still have the added back pressure from the suppressor to overcome the additional weight. |
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Posted: 8/9/2023 6:49:26 PM EDT
[#44]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By November5: Close but not quite. Ports work that way. Comps are slightly different. Once the gas is in the expansion chamber it is no longer acting on the breech face. If you were to just let it loose it would be wasted energy. But once it hits the front wall of the comp it is redirected into pushing forward on the gun, which is why you generally need hotter ammo or a lighter slide/spring. You're redirecting otherwise wasted energy to counteract the recoil. Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By November5: Originally Posted By Rudukai13: Yes, it does. The compensator works at peak efficiency when the bullet hasn't exited or "uncorked" from the end of the compensator, at which point the expanding gases that would otherwise be applying pressure to the breach face escape upward from the expansion ports, which is what provides the force to counteract recoil and muzzle flip. Which is why you need to either add more input force using hotter ammo or reduce the amount of force required to cycle the slide by reducing the reciprocating mass or the action spring weights You’re right, in this sense I was wrong. But it’s not the extra weight on the end of the barrel that requires the extra energy |
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Posted: 8/9/2023 6:50:49 PM EDT
[Last Edit: Rudukai13]
[#45]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By BMSMB: I've never heard of someone running barrel weights... not saying it's not done, but I know nothing about it. It could also be the downward force at the end of the barrel is making it harder to break lockup, thus requiring more reward force. Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By BMSMB: Originally Posted By November5: You can run weights up to 3-4 ounces on the barrel without affecting reliability. I've never heard of someone running barrel weights... not saying it's not done, but I know nothing about it. It could also be the downward force at the end of the barrel is making it harder to break lockup, thus requiring more reward force. They’re more commonly referred to as sight blocks these days but it’s an old concept:   It’s basically a compensator without ports. An extra chunk of metal stuck on the end of the barrel |
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Posted: 8/9/2023 6:51:58 PM EDT
[#46]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By RustedAce:. Thing arrived. https://www.ar15.com/media/mediaFiles/47980/IMG_2539-2913021.jpg A gun? |
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Posted: 8/9/2023 6:52:32 PM EDT
[#47]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By BMSMB: You still have the added back pressure from the suppressor to overcome the additional weight. Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By BMSMB: Originally Posted By November5: Only if they exceed the weight limit. You still have the added back pressure from the suppressor to overcome the additional weight. |
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Posted: 8/9/2023 7:09:12 PM EDT
[#48]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By November5: Some, but the point being the weight of the compensator isn't as significant a factor as the compensatory affect caused by the gas hitting the face of the comp. Either way, the comp is not stealing any energy from the cycling action. |
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Posted: 8/9/2023 7:12:20 PM EDT
[#49]
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Posted: 8/9/2023 7:12:55 PM EDT
[#50]
We’ll have to agree to disagree.
Missilegeek has a point though, this is a thread about pistol RDS, not compensators. I’ll accept my 20 lashes for the temporary hijack and return to the original topic |
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