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Posted: 6/18/2023 2:11:25 AM EDT
[#1]
Quote HistoryQuoted:  
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Posted: 6/18/2023 2:12:05 AM EDT
[#2]
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Posted: 6/18/2023 3:41:53 AM EDT
[#3]
Earnest question: has anyone here HONESTLY seen, with their own eyes, an ND during a speedy reload/no safety on? Not a slam fire, but a real trigger pulling ND? I have not, and I did two all expenses paid trips to Iraq in the USMC infantry and done lots of multi-gun comps.
I honestly care zero if the guys in a house clearing team are putting their rifle on safe. I care if they are keeping a finger in the trigger guard or pointing in an unsafe direction. |
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Posted: 6/18/2023 7:59:01 AM EDT
[#4]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Lol, safety on when not engaging the threat. Slam fires are only real if you're using the wrong primer, the primer is sticking out because the round was out of spec, or repeated chamberings that kept on creeping closer and closer to the anvil in the primer until the inevitable happens. Why would you keep rechambering the same round over and over? Why would you load out of spec ammo into your mags and chamber? Operator caused, not a real concern unless it's because of your negligence from ignorant complacency. If I am reloading while still engaging the threat because they're still dangerous, then I have already made the decision to destroy whom it's pointed at meaning no violation. And why are you having your finger in the trigger while moving? Safety violation, keep your finger off the trigger and weapon on safe until positive threat ID and then on fire until the threat has ended, back on safe. Operating in close proximity to what other operators say what now? Are you saying that we are going to have all of you mall operators who never operated ever, suddenly show up and reinforce during a home invasion!? Fuck ya, right on dude! Fictitious shit but so has been your reply so far. And fratricide, say what now buddy? Who's they here again, you studs ready to reinforce the entire 50 states and territories the moment the boogaloo signal gets put out? Put the BS on safe as well, it takes literally not much critical thinking to understand that when the threat hasn't ended, putting it on safe, reload, and then engage back on safe makes about as much sense as wiping your butt before pooping. That's just asking for darwin to win. Follow the four rules, if the four rules are being followed, then there's no problem. Only put on fire when the threat presents itself, no finger on trgger at any point of this until ready to shoot, threat ends, back on safe. Easy day.  Attached FileCan't tell if serious or just trolling....maybe retarded. You obviously don't understand sarcasm. |
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Posted: 6/18/2023 8:06:22 AM EDT
[#5]
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Posted: 6/18/2023 8:08:01 AM EDT
[#6]
I depends on the situation.
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Posted: 6/18/2023 9:08:51 AM EDT
[#7]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Earnest question: has anyone here HONESTLY seen, with their own eyes, an ND during a speedy reload/no safety on? Not a slam fire, but a real trigger pulling ND? I have not, and I did two all expenses paid trips to Iraq in the USMC infantry and done lots of multi-gun comps. I honestly care zero if the guys in a house clearing team are putting their rifle on safe. I care if they are keeping a finger in the trigger guard or pointing in an unsafe direction. I have already posted I have seen this many times in competitions. I shot 3-gun for about 10 years, and personally witnessed this multiple times. I saw quite a few DQs over those 10 years from NDs and with the rifle this was the most common cause. Adrenaline leads to mistakes, and you reload between target arrays or locations with a hot weapon for speed. I took many rifle classes in that time and this never happened. But my instructors taught to engage the safety during tactical reloads from cover. To be fair I shot 3gun almost every weekend and only took 4-5 courses. |
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Posted: 6/18/2023 9:12:54 AM EDT
[#8]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Earnest question: has anyone here HONESTLY seen, with their own eyes, an ND during a speedy reload/no safety on? Not a slam fire, but a real trigger pulling ND? I have not, and I did two all expenses paid trips to Iraq in the USMC infantry and done lots of multi-gun comps. I honestly care zero if the guys in a house clearing team are putting their rifle on safe. I care if they are keeping a finger in the trigger guard or pointing in an unsafe direction. Truth. Preach it. The 4 rules be the 4 rules. Putting on a safety is NRA fudd add-ons. Just follow the 4 rules. |
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Posted: 6/18/2023 9:14:38 AM EDT
[#9]
Wait, you use a safety?
I don't know if I've ever intentionally used a safety on any gun. |
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Posted: 6/18/2023 9:26:19 AM EDT
[#10]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Truth. Preach it. The 4 rules be the 4 rules. Putting on a safety is NRA fudd add-ons. Just follow the 4 rules. Lol. Yeah, only NRA fudds like the nation's most elite special operations unit put the safety on while reloading. They should take a lesson from the average guys who CCW and single term Marines of GD and stop doing that. |
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Posted: 6/18/2023 9:28:25 AM EDT
[#11]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Wait, you use a safety? I don't know if I've ever intentionally used a safety on any gun. At least you're consistent. Whether you use it or not, consistency is the most important thing IMO. |
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Posted: 6/18/2023 9:31:06 AM EDT
[#12]
Quote HistoryQuote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: There are four rules. Not five. ^^ this https://www.nrawomen.com/media/nprb1i1e/gunsite-safety-rules-sign.jpg If all guns were always loaded, why would you need to do a mag change? |
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Posted: 6/18/2023 10:09:00 AM EDT
[#13]
On. Any time you’re not about to shoot. If you train and practice, instead of just plinking, you won’t even think about it. When you’re doing a reload, by definition, you’re not shooting and your rifle isn’t likely aimed at anything you would shoot. As time doesn’t stop during your reload, the threat/situation might change and what you thought you will do, may not be the case anymore. During any subsequent actions you take, a chance of something getting into the fairly large trigger guard and making contact with a light trigger is way more than zero. Since I don’t want to turn victory into instant defeat by shooting something or someone I didn’t want to shoot, I use the safety.
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Posted: 6/18/2023 10:11:56 AM EDT
[#14]
Quote HistoryQuoted: This is my rifle of choice. Do I still follow safety on or off during mag changes? https://www.ar15.com/media/mediaFiles/346870/PSA-Type-56-feature_jpg-2854233.JPG Thank you for pointing out inherent flaws on a weapon, which was created in a culture which doesn’t care about its own people, and a design which was surpassed several times over by much better rifles. |
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Posted: 6/18/2023 10:15:15 AM EDT
[#15]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Would you follow the same rules shooting this rifle? https://www.ar15.com/media/mediaFiles/346870/sp10_phatch_jpg-2854079.JPG Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: +1 1) Sights 2) Safety, off 3) Trigger, finger on 4) Trigger, fingers off 5) Safety, on 6) Lower sights and re-assess That's how it's taught at Sig Sauer Academy. Safety is on and finger is off the trigger until your sights are on the target. This is of course for firearms that have a safety. https://www.ar15.com/media/mediaFiles/346870/sp10_phatch_jpg-2854079.JPG You might as well bring a blunderbuss into the discussion. Was the 1903 utilized in the same way the AR is now? |
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Posted: 6/18/2023 10:16:34 AM EDT
[#16]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Lol. Yeah, only NRA fudds like the nation's most elite special operations unit put the safety on while reloading. They should take a lesson from the average guys who CCW and single term Marines of GD and stop doing that. Specops is like 0.00087% of gun owners/users. They are in situations that no one else is in. Case in point: in no way would I ever "stack up" in a SD situation. Safety on makes sense when I'm constantly covering multiple friendlies and having to reload in stressful situations with people right near my muzzle. That's not me. That's not you. Train how you fight. Your advice translates to putting on a 5-point harness, full flame retardant gear, helmet, a roll cage, to run to the store to get milk. Different safety rules for different situation. |
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Posted: 6/18/2023 10:31:16 AM EDT
[#17]
Quote HistoryQuoted: If all guns were always loaded, why would you need to do a mag change? Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: Quoted: There are four rules. Not five. ^^ this https://www.nrawomen.com/media/nprb1i1e/gunsite-safety-rules-sign.jpg If all guns were always loaded, why would you need to do a mag change?  Attached File |
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Posted: 6/18/2023 10:33:34 AM EDT
[#18]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Specops is like 0.00087% of gun owners/users. They are in situations that no one else is in. Case in point: in no way would I ever "stack up" in a SD situation. Safety on makes sense when I'm constantly covering multiple friendlies and having to reload in stressful situations with people right near my muzzle. That's not me. That's not you. Train how you fight. Your advice translates to putting on a 5-point harness, full flame retardant gear, helmet, a roll cage, to run to the store to get milk. Different safety rules for different situation. So how do you train then? |
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Posted: 6/18/2023 10:33:53 AM EDT
[#19]
It sure is a good way to see what a persons level of training is that’s for sure.
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Posted: 6/18/2023 10:34:27 AM EDT
[#20]
Quote HistoryQuoted: If all guns were always loaded, why would you need to do a mag change?  Attached File |
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Posted: 6/18/2023 10:41:59 AM EDT
[#21]
Quote HistoryQuoted: I have already posted I have seen this many times in competitions. I shot 3-gun for about 10 years, and personally witnessed this multiple times. I saw quite a few DQs over those 10 years from NDs and with the rifle this was the most common cause. Adrenaline leads to mistakes, and you reload between target arrays or locations with a hot weapon for speed. I took many rifle classes in that time and this never happened. But my instructors taught to engage the safety during tactical reloads from cover. To be fair I shot 3gun almost every weekend and only took 4-5 courses. Tac reload isn't a speed reload. Different situation and circumstances for both. Tac is for a lull in the action. So, yes, it should be on. Speed- no. You are trying to get back into the fight and your first mission is getting the gun loaded. And 3 gun... ya, there are some scary folks out there trying it. |
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Posted: 6/18/2023 10:53:05 AM EDT
[#22]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Specops is like 0.00087% of gun owners/users. They are in situations that no one else is in. Case in point: in no way would I ever "stack up" in a SD situation. Safety on makes sense when I'm constantly covering multiple friendlies and having to reload in stressful situations with people right near my muzzle. That's not me. That's not you. Train how you fight. Your advice translates to putting on a 5-point harness, full flame retardant gear, helmet, a roll cage, to run to the store to get milk. Different safety rules for different situation. Funny story, I trained on stacking up and covering multiple friendlies last week. Even if we put aside the fact that the Second Amendment ain't about self defense, the reasons for using the safety apply just as much in the home as they do in the shoothouse. |
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Posted: 6/18/2023 10:57:54 AM EDT
[#23]
Quote HistoryQuoted: At least you're consistent. Whether you use it or not, consistency is the most important thing IMO. BINGO! |
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Posted: 6/18/2023 11:01:48 AM EDT
[#24]
Quote HistoryQuoted: BINGO! Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: At least you're consistent. Whether you use it or not, consistency is the most important thing IMO. BINGO! Have you ever seen someone be consistently shitty? I have. But I guess the consistency in being terrible does let me know to stay away. |
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Posted: 6/18/2023 11:10:39 AM EDT
[#25]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Have you ever seen someone be consistently shitty? I have. But I guess the consistency in being terrible does let me know to stay away. Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: Quoted: At least you're consistent. Whether you use it or not, consistency is the most important thing IMO. BINGO! Have you ever seen someone be consistently shitty? I have. But I guess the consistency in being terrible does let me know to stay away. I have too, but that's not what I was talking about. I meant specifically regarding training and the use of a safety during mag changes. All of the people saying they may or may not use it during certain situations stand a good chance of fumble fucking it when it comes time to do the needful. |
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Posted: 6/18/2023 11:14:40 AM EDT
[#26]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Funny story, I trained on stacking up and covering multiple friendlies last week. Even if we put aside the fact that the Second Amendment ain't about self defense, the reasons for using the safety apply just as much in the home as they do in the shoothouse. Great. Train the way you fight, or at least expect to. I won't stack up. I have and probably will roll solo. Safeties are just one more step I don't need under stress. |
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Posted: 6/18/2023 11:24:02 AM EDT
[#27]
It’s funny to see someone say that engaging the safety is a Fudd thing to do when it’s generally poorly trained, or lack there of, Fudds that don’t want to engage it.
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Posted: 6/18/2023 11:29:28 AM EDT
[#28]
Quote HistoryQuoted: It’s funny to see someone say that engaging the safety is a Fudd thing to do when it’s generally poorly trained, or lack there of, Fudds that don’t want to engage it. Now I'm a fudd? |
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Posted: 6/18/2023 11:30:54 AM EDT
[#29]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Now I'm a fudd? Did I say you or does the shoe just fit? |
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Posted: 6/18/2023 11:31:31 AM EDT
[#30]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Wait, you use a safety? I don't know if I've ever intentionally used a safety on any gun. Yeah but you live in the ocean and cause a commotion. |
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Posted: 6/18/2023 11:32:46 AM EDT
[#31]
Quote HistoryQuoted: So how do you train then? Train? My range is 1 round per 5 seconds. |
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Posted: 6/18/2023 11:32:59 AM EDT
[#32]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Earnest question: has anyone here HONESTLY seen, with their own eyes, an ND during a speedy reload/no safety on? Not a slam fire, but a real trigger pulling ND? I have not, and I did two all expenses paid trips to Iraq in the USMC infantry and done lots of multi-gun comps. I honestly care zero if the guys in a house clearing team are putting their rifle on safe. I care if they are keeping a finger in the trigger guard or pointing in an unsafe direction. A couple. |
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Posted: 6/18/2023 11:34:04 AM EDT
[#33]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Great. Train the way you fight, or at least expect to. I won't stack up. I have and probably will roll solo. Safeties are just one more step I don't need under stress. I'm glad there's no friendlies in your life. I guess? |
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Posted: 6/18/2023 11:37:31 AM EDT
[#34]
Quote HistoryQuoted: I'm glad there's no friendlies in your life. I guess? Not really. |
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Posted: 6/18/2023 11:46:50 AM EDT
[#35]
Quoted: Here's a gun topic for GD to argue over. Do you guys engage the safety on guns(mainly ARs) that allow it during mag changes? I know a lot of people do but I really don't see the need to. If I have an empty gun and need to keep shooting I think putting the safety on and then taking it back off is wasted movement and adds another thing in the mix to cause problems. I've tried it and eventually forget to disengage the safety at some point, but I've always trained to just keep my finger off the trigger and being left handed my trigger finger is being used to drop the mag so it's nowhere near the trigger. People always say a manual safety on a fighting pistol is just one more thing to get you killed but when it comes to long guns they get all bent out of shape if the safety isn't on at all times when you're not shooting. ETA. /media/mediaFiles/sharedAlbum/ThisIsMySafety-137.jpg Having read/watched gun handling advice from three Delta trainers they are very conscious of their safety, I don't remember the incident being in the book but it's been a LONG time. There is an original vid from Pat Mac on this subject. (Of safety not Mogadishu) I personally don't do it |
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Posted: 6/18/2023 12:06:20 PM EDT
[#36]
First American casualty I witnessed in the war was a soldier shot in the back of the head because another soldier tried that “My finger is my safety” bullshit.
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Posted: 6/18/2023 12:10:19 PM EDT
[#37]
Quote HistoryQuoted: I have too, but that's not what I was talking about. I meant specifically regarding training and the use of a safety during mag changes. All of the people saying they may or may not use it during certain situations stand a good chance of fumble fucking it when it comes time to do the needful. We all knew what you were saying. People just want to argue. Lol |
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Posted: 6/18/2023 12:12:54 PM EDT
[#38]
I'm late but no. A mag change is a dynamic action to get back in the fight. Once the bolt is slammed home you are reengaging. Finger off the trigger during the change.
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Posted: 6/18/2023 12:17:11 PM EDT
[#39]
Quote HistoryQuoted: A couple. Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: Earnest question: has anyone here HONESTLY seen, with their own eyes, an ND during a speedy reload/no safety on? Not a slam fire, but a real trigger pulling ND? I have not, and I did two all expenses paid trips to Iraq in the USMC infantry and done lots of multi-gun comps. I honestly care zero if the guys in a house clearing team are putting their rifle on safe. I care if they are keeping a finger in the trigger guard or pointing in an unsafe direction. A couple. I don’t see how. A speed reload requires the rifle be out of ammunition and the bolt locked back. If not it’s an admin/tactical reload and the safety should be on. Aside from the moment you release the magazine, you could be pulling the trigger rapidfire and absolutely nothing can happen. Even when the bolt release drops, the disconnector will not allow the rifle to fire. That leaves slamfires or intentional trigger pulls |
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Posted: 6/18/2023 12:19:56 PM EDT
[#40]
tactical reload = safety on from cover finger off trigger.
speed reload = change mag finger off trigger. |
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Posted: 6/18/2023 12:26:25 PM EDT
[#41]
Quote HistoryQuoted: tactical reload = safety on from cover finger off trigger. speed reload = change mag finger off trigger. You train two ways? I'm a no-safety kinda guy, but you should probably just pick one and commit. |
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Posted: 6/18/2023 12:36:48 PM EDT
[#42]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Gun is empty, why put it on safe? Ben more “accidents” with empty guns than loaded Also, tactical reloads. And I’m a safety user. I’ll admit it. |
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Posted: 6/18/2023 12:43:12 PM EDT
[#43]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Change your grip and just use your left thumb. Easy as can be. Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: I'd want to find some new guys to work with if that was a concern. Mine is off for emergency mag changes. I'm also left handed and was stuck with non ambi safeties for a very long time. Change your grip and just use your left thumb. Easy as can be. I actually use my left trigger finger to run the safety. seems to work fine for me. |
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Posted: 6/18/2023 12:48:54 PM EDT
[#44]
If I am going to sling or holster, yes. Continue shooting..no.
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Posted: 6/18/2023 4:37:24 PM EDT
[#45]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Yeah but you live in the ocean and cause a commotion. I like the cut of your jib friend |
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Posted: 6/18/2023 4:49:18 PM EDT
[#46]
Quote HistoryQuoted: On. Any time you’re not about to shoot. If you train and practice, instead of just plinking, you won’t even think about it. When you’re doing a reload, by definition, you’re not shooting and your rifle isn’t likely aimed at anything you would shoot. As time doesn’t stop during your reload, the threat/situation might change and what you thought you will do, may not be the case anymore. During any subsequent actions you take, a chance of something getting into the fairly large trigger guard and making contact with a light trigger is way more than zero. Since I don’t want to turn victory into instant defeat by shooting something or someone I didn’t want to shoot, I use the safety. +1 I was taught that after the mag change, you re-assess. The threat may be gone at that point so you won’t be shooting again. |
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Posted: 6/18/2023 4:59:18 PM EDT
[#47]
When you shoot to slide lock it is not necessary at all.
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Posted: 6/18/2023 4:59:49 PM EDT
[#48]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Glocks don't need no stinking manual safety. BINGO! Why do some people want to treat other firearms differently. Is it because those other firearms aren’t as safe as a GLOCK? |
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Posted: 6/18/2023 5:03:30 PM EDT
[#49]
Quote HistoryQuoted: First American casualty I witnessed in the war was a soldier shot in the back of the head because another soldier tried that “My finger is my safety” bullshit. Excuse me sir, you're an NRA Rudd that's trying to make it 5 rules instead of 4 |
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Posted: 6/18/2023 5:07:29 PM EDT
[#50]
I like the NRA's 3 rules.
ALWAYS keep the gun pointed in a safe direction. ALWAYS keep your finger off of the trigger until you're ready to shoot. ALWAYS keep the gun unloaded until you're ready to use it. They require a bit of explanation but not really. |
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