My opposition to Romney is not based on his beliefs.

It’s based on the fact that he’s a spineless RINO shitbird.

You continually deliver deceptive answers to questions that have nothing to do with the original question.

Actually, the false words are yours, because you are using a straw man here; responding to an allegation that simply wasn't made.  It's not God's divinity that mormonism questions, but the divinity of Jesus Christ.

Was Jesus Christ always and forever God?

Again, a straw mormon. I didn't ask if there are 'competing deities' in your belief system. I asked if more than one God could possibly exist.

I appreciated the quotes as well and found some in your books you might not be aware of since you refrained from posting these:

The prophet, seer, and revelator of your church used the word "Gods."  Even the context around that words leaves no doubt that mormon doctrine recognizes the existence of more than one god.

Regarding https://www.lds.org/topics/mother-in-heaven?lang=eng

I noticed you didn't expound. I understand that this would wind up being embarrassing.

Look, I know you will not answer these questions with true honesty, and prefer a pattern of parroting straw talking points instead.

Not only is what you are putting forward expressly *NOT* Christianity, it's a very horrible corruption of it.

As stated, no Christian church or denomination recognizes mormons/LDS as also Christian, and it's a false gospel.

We're given a lens from God to employ (metaphorically - different from an actual 'seer stone'):


Galatians 1:8

But though we, or an angel from heaven, preach any other gospel unto you than that which we have preached unto you, let him be accursed.

Who was Christ speaking to in John 8?

Jesus was talking to a group of Jews, including Pharisees, and possibly other Jewish leaders... Link

If that were the case, he was talking to (at least in part) folks who had rejected the truth, and were apostates.

It is in our doctrines in the Latter-Day Church, as it was back then-- that apostates follow the Devil.

Pharisees and Jewish leaders would be in that category.

We do not disagree with Christ. Christ taught the truth. The Church today teaches the same.

We are all Gods creations, His children, with divine destiny. We are also adopted as His children when we accept Christ, Christs Church, repent, and follow His teachings...

Link

I consider you a true friend, who would give me the shirt off your back if I needed it, I also consider you a tremendous asset to gun rights, and a tremendous asset to this site.

You can disagree without being disagreeable. You can present your point of view, and do it as a gentleman.

I hope you are not done in considering what truth I share. Christ, from a non-LDS Christian website, was talking to apostates in John 8:44. Apostates have known the truth, and reject it. They knowingly follow Satan. Their father is Satan, in that sense, as apostates. Their creator is God, and always will be. The Pharisees would be in that group. We teach the same

We are all Gods creations. Gods Children. We are adopted as Gods Children when we accept Christ, repent, and follow His commandments.

I believe in the teachings of Jesus. I love Jesus and am grateful for His blessings and forgiveness He has blessed me with.

I have been given a good life, a good wife, an amazing family, and a good job that helps pay the bills.

In John 8:44, Christ was teaching members of The  Church (Jews) who had chosen to follow Satan, instead of following God.

Link

And The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Saints teaches the same thing today. Apostates who choose to fight God and The Church are considered in the same light today as back then... Followers of the Devil.

There is no question that Romney has moved to the political right on life... And I consider abortion is murder.

No one can argue against that.

Romney has said that he is pro-life, and has not --since running in 2008-- given me any reason not to believe he is pro-life.

I honestly don't know how folks can say they don't believe Romney on abortion rights, but support Trump, who has funded abortion clinic fundraisers, and has since moved to the right.

Only for Trump to flip-flop back to the hard-left on gun rights...

Is Romney going to move back to the left on abortion? Like Trump did on gun rights ("take the guns first")??-?? Romney needs to get removed from office if he does...

I believe abortion is murder. I believe elected officials should protect life, as best they can...

There is a vocal minority, that is for sure.

And folks --even in politics-- try to be civil.

To a certain extent, Indiana is more conservative in some ways.

When I lived there, and participated in the Caucuses, I asked an otherwise "conservative" republican about vehicle registration.

I said it was a racket. A government-supported, government-endorsed racket. If a cop wants to write a ticket for a vehicle infraction, let them do it. But giving an auto-shop the power to keep a vehicle off the road unless they make a repair is a government-supported racket.

He said, "We need to have vehicle registration, or the auto shops that do the inspecting will go out of business."

Pro-gun, pro-life, claimed to be a "Constitutional conservative," and could not see that he was nothing more than a gun-supporting socialist

Utah is not perfect. Using Romney as a litmust test is kind of retarded. Romney did a great job there against Obama in 2012. Romney argued in favor of gun rights, pro-life, and smaller-government against Obama in 2012. Romney might not be perfect, I certainly don't think he is, but it was Romneys conservative run in 2012 that people remember... Hard for Democrats to compete with that.

And couple that with Romney actually winning a spot in the Primary outright at the Republican Convention... While Utah might not be perfect, conservatively speaking, Republicans lost ground Nationwide in the House that election. Including here in Indiana, in a close race. I wasn't a bad idea, actually to have a guaranteed seat go to a Republican. Trumps, "take the guns first," followers don't think Trumps actions should ever be questioned, but on the big things (including gun rights, tragically) there is not an inch of daylight between Romney and Trump...

The real Jesus or the Mormon Jesus?

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My goal is truth.

If you are not happy with my answer, I would blame you, not me.

So... We agree on the divinity of God, but not the divinity of Gods only begotten Son, Jesus Christ?

I am sure you will find something else we disagree with... Lol.

We believe that Jesus Christ is both Gods only begotten Son, and also eternal...

"Possibly exist," in theory... You were asking for non-scriptural, non-doctrinal guessing and postulation?

Why?

Don't you want the doctrinal truth? Why wouldn't you want the established doctrinal truth?

Typical anti-Mormon.

Call us liars.

Then falsely present something as something we teach or believe in...

"... in your books..."

In our scriptures? Or in some of our "books." Two completely different things.

"History of the Church" is not a scriptural source of doctrine. Much of it was written after Smiths death. It is a nice source of information, a good source of historical events. But it is not an established source on doctrine.

That being said, Smith, in the non-scriptural source-- was referring to God, Jesus Christ, and the Holy Spirit. Three Gods that are *one* God. We worship as one God.

Sure. In the non-scriptural, non-doctrinal source, Smith used, "Gods" referring to God, Jesus Christ, and the Holy Ghost. All members of one God.

Your guess is as good as mine why it wasn't established as formal doctrine...

Our teachings of God The Father, Jesus His Son, and the Holy Spirit are found in our scriptures, including the Bible and Book of Mormon...

How so?

I linked to our webpage on it, containing plenty of information on that doctrine... Embarrassing? How so?

The early creeds corrupted the early Church. Our beliefs more closely match the pre-creed Church than the post-creed. That is your problem.

You are using the wrong yardstick.

We should determine which Church follows the teachings of Christ by holding a vote? Sounds very, very creed-like. You know that is how the early creeds were adopted? By a vote? Did you know that?

We are given a lense. We are given a yardstick. The scriptures. I have quoted from the scriptures. We know what the majority of the pre-creed Church believed. We know that Greek paganism influenced the post-creed Church.

Link

As far as, "seer stones," or objects used for a spiritual purpose, the Bible is replete with examples: The Ark of the Covenant, The Brass Serpent, The Rod of Aaron... We have a yardstick to use, the Bible and the pre-creed Church. And also, as far as, "seer stones," are concerned, we also have, from the Bible, objects that can be used for Gods purpose on this earth by Gods chosen...

The movie is, "The Godmakers," an anti-Mormon propaganda hit piece.

An answer to each of the anti-Mormon antagonisms in the movie... Link

The real pre-creed Jesus.

The post-creed Church was corrupted by Greek worldly philosophy and paganism... Link

God and Christ through Smith, restored the Gospel that was lost in the apostasy... Link

Nailed it.

These threads are just awesome. The energizer bunny just keeps going and going!

Fuck off, mittens romney, you're a piece of shit who lost because you're a piece of shit. We're far better off than if the GOPe scumbag had won.

You miss Hillary.....

Are you in the city or in a rural part of the state? Just like any other big city, SLC and the surrounding metropolitan area (happy valley) has plenty of liberals.

The rest of the state (except Moab, Park City, Heber and Helper) doesn't go for that shit.

Do you Mormons consider non Mormons apostic?

Quite true.  As I noted before this thread got horribly derailed (like practically every other Romney thread) Utah has the same problems as every other Red State:  Blue State refugees moving in and trying to take over.

Unlike in Colorado or Nevada, they can't take over the state government because they can't out-breed or out-convert or out-vote the Mormons.  But that doesn't stop them from taking over individual cities and turning them into Leftist strongholds full of Fair-Trade Coffee shops and Dog-Friendly Cafes, as Bloen points out.

When you visit these cities or towns you will find they are not much different than San Franscisco or Seattle or Portland, because those are the Socialist Worker's Paradises where a lot of these new residents fled from.

Lol, wut?

The whole thread was worth it just for this!

Utah is a cult.... they behave as a cult.

You sent talking points about the "heavenly mother." There is no such thing. Your link doesn't even contain any references as to exactly what is written in your doctrine about this. Since you want to focus on doctrine, where can I read in great detail about the nature and origin of the "heavenly mother?" Again, totally foreign to Christians. God needs no partner to create any type or manner of life he wishes to.

Seems that the existence of the "heavenly mother" was decided by men, just like the nicene creed. If it had been generally accepted and spelled out clearly in doctrine, there would be no need for such an imprimatur.

wiki:

I gave you quotes directly from Joseph Smith. You have not overcome that with the mountain of BS you are trying to hide that fact behind.

He preached there are a plurality of Gods.  That's inconsistent with a monotheistic religion, even if you don't worship but one. It's a lie to suggest he was speaking of the trinity, for if he was, he was even more incorrect.

But you know also there are many many other examples of this. I've chosen only two.

You mention "Doctrine."   How about D&C ('doctrine' and 'covenants') 132?

20 Then shall they be gods, because they have no end; therefore shall they be from everlasting to everlasting, because they continue; then shall they be above all, because all things are subject unto them. Then shall they be gods, because they have all power, and the angels are subject unto them.

(exaltation)

So if there is only, and can ever be only one "God," how is it that other "gods" can possibly exist?

Christians have a word for those seeking to be God or "like God." The word is "Luciferian."

So you're down to a situation where you either have to acknowledge that mormonism admits there could be more than one god in existence.
, making it at minimum henotheistic (worship of one God without denying existence of other Gods).

Or you repudiating the words of the founder, Joseph Smith, and cast doubt on the entirety of doctrine & covenants.

The bottom line here is that mormonism does not deny that other gods could actually exist. In fact there's substantial evidence that it's trying to create more, all the time.

You've held up the company talking points well, but they just don't stand up on their own.

Seer stones?

There are so many problems with all this, it's sad to see people trapped in this giant web of lies. I hope you eventually come around to the actual Jesus Christ. The one who actually ever was, and existed in all eternity as God. You think you're worshiping the same Jesus Christ, but you are most definitely not.

Perfectly said.

There will never be a Mormon President.

Oh.  So "heavenly father" normally produces sinner children, but somehow "heavenly father" fathered someone sinless when Mormonism's Jesus came into being.

All those verses in Genesis that say things are "begotten after their own kind" ...  there is a reason for that.  The Mormon "heavenly father" could not have produced a sinless being because "heavenly father" is a sinner, himself.  He was a man, just like the men of today, who "spiritually progressed."

That "heavenly father" of Mormonism is not the God of the Bible.

And the "Jesus" produced by that sinner who became a god is not the Jesus of the  Bible.

You are free to believe as you choose, but it will cost you your soul.

Fact: Mitten signed into law the firearms reform bill in 2004 banning semi auto rifles.

“These guns are not made for recreation or self-defense,” Romney said in 2004. “They are instruments of destruction with the sole purpose of hunting down and killing people."

Don't even try and compare that POS to Trump. Trump sacrificed a pawn that he should not have, but he has been far more conservative than Mittens.

criley - Don't forget about the "heavenly mother." In mormonism, somehow God requires a partner to create.

Brother, he's been stockholmed.

Many people in Utah are unable to separate personal character from the job.

Romney is (as far as we know) a devoted family man who really has given a lot of personal time serving his neighbors as a bishop in the past.  Many people in Utah will base their judgment of Romney as a politician on whether he's a devoted husband and devout religious man.

The same people hate President Trump's personal character so much that they are unable/unwilling to contemplate President Trump's policies.  Because they hate his character, he could single handedly save the USA and they would still condemn him and curse him for it.

I have met a few exceptions to this, who clued in within a few months of Trump's election, but the rest are blinded by their perception of Trump as a philanderer.

Imagine my disappointment when people I personally know who are otherwise smart and sensible turn into drooling idiots the moment President Trump's name is mentioned.

Hey, that's Biblical!  You can find it in 2 Opinion chapter 5.  Cross referenced in Hallucinations chapter 2!

I'm flippin' pages.....

Mitt is shit and the Trib is a shitty liberal rag.

Well..... Mormons aren't Christians...so there's that.

I doubt DJT is a Christian either.  Maybe we can ask those two Corinthians?

I sent you all the information I have on the subject. There is not a lot out there.

The link is the reference. There is not a lot of information about it out there. The link contained all the information I know is available. My link is better than your Wiki quote, as far as direct, official information from The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Saints.

It is not a saving doctrine. It is not a saving principle. It is an ancillary belief, and not a lot is known about it.

I had to look-up what “imprimatur” meant.
You cannot use big words like, “imprimatur,” and quote wiki in the same post.

There is a difference between, “quote from Smith,” and established official doctrines of The Church. Sometimes antagonists to The Church of Jesus Christ try to purposefully confuse the two.

And Smith was correct, from your quotes, in the principles he was teaching. God the Father is a God. Jesus Christ is a God. The Holy Spirit is a God. The three comprise one God.

I am not confused. You seem to be trying to make yourself confused.

I declare myself winner of this debate. That was easy.
Smith said a lot of things he never canonized. Smith is attributed with saying things that only came-out after Smiths death, after Smith could have clarified or corrected what was actually said.

Smith taught that God, The Father; Jesus Christ, The Son; and the Holy Spirit comprise the Godhead. Three Gods, with one purpose. That is what Smith taught.
Smith taught that the Trinity is not a Biblical, scriptural doctrine.

There are more than two instances where Smith taught that God, Jesus, and the Holy Spirit were three separate entities that comprised *one* Godhead.
Smith was quoting Christ. “Jesus answered them, Is it not written in your law, I said, Ye are gods?

If he called them gods, unto whom the word of God came, and the scripture cannot be broken; (John 10:34-35)

Christ was quoting Psalms “I have said, Ye are gods; and all of you are children of the most High. (Psalm 82:6)
Smith was talking about our divine potential, not the multiplicity of Gods.

You want postulation and guess work? It seems that is what you are driving at...


Christ said, “ye are gods.”

As followers of Christ in The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Saints, we do not disagree with Christ.

There is no third option?

The third option is that Smith, in one instance you quoted was talking about God, The Father; Christ, The Son; and the Holy Spirit as Gods who make one God.

In another instance Smith was talking about our divine potential, using the same terminology Christ used.

You are trying to guess and postulate and put words into our mouths.

We know from the scriptures that Christ calls us Gods.

We know Smith said the same.


You have hit all the major points of contention from the antagonists to the Latter-Day work.
God using actual objects for a spiritual purpose is a Biblical doctrine.
The early creeds destroyed much of the early-Christian belief in Christ that the Latter-Day Church believes. It is a foreign concept to you, because it was lost for so long.

Do we worship Jesus Christ in The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Saints?
Yes.

Yeah, its in there right next to the word, “Trinity.”

1 Cor 11: 8 For the man is not of the woman; but the woman of the man.

9 Neither was the man created for the woman; but the woman for the man.

10 For this cause ought the woman to have power on her head because of the angels.

11 Nevertheless neither is the man without the woman, neither the woman without the man, in the Lord.

12 For as the woman is of the man, even so is the man also by the woman; but all things of God.

“Heavenly Mother,” plays no significant role in our doctrine or in our Christ-centered path to salvation. We know very little about this ancillary belief. Only folks who get hemmed up in this doctrine are fanatical antagonists to The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Saints.

Does that include the Mormon Jesus?

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If some folks were less determined to focus on a particular religion and were more focused on pertinent situational dynamics, I think we could have a more productive discussion.

If just one poster quit posting I am positive we could have a much more meaningful discussion...

I see the Romney jihadist found this thread...lol.

Is anyone actually reading all this?

I'm not. lol

Nicely said Shane. I've got the same problem. To a lesser extant.

Disappointed this turned into a Christian vs Mormon slap fest and a Roo vs the World thread. Inevitable I suppose.

Divide and conquer always works.

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I suspect that very few read Roo.

His memes are a crime against Dankness.

IBTL!

Ahhh the weekly Mormon bashing thread......

Are all the usual suspects here?

By hell it’s a wonder some people get a long with anyone that doesn’t share their beliefs.

Fact- Romney is a RINO
Fact- Salt Lake Trib is a liberal rag.

What more needs to be said?

Do Mormons have liberals and Rinos in their ranks...yes

Do Mormons have Republicans, conservatives, and libertarians in their ranks.... yes

Correlation is no causation .... hope some people around here aren’t doctors operating under skewed assumptions

I see that it didn't take long for the paid shill to appear.

As I said in another thread......
I could eat a can of Spaghetti O's then shit on a picture and it would be an improvement over his memes

Revelation 22: 18,19

For I testify unto every man that heareth the words of the prophecy of this book, If any man shall add unto these things, God shall add unto him the plagues that are written in this book:

And if any man shall take away from the words of the book of this prophecy, God shall take away his part out of the book of life, and out of the holy city, and from the things which are written in this book.

What it doesn't say: For I testify unto every man that heareth the words of the prophecy of this book, Oh and don't forget the Book of Mormon If any man shall add unto these things, except if your names Joseph Smith , you can , God shall add unto him the plagues that are written in this book: And the other one too

And if any man shall take away from the words of the book of this prophecy, oh I almost forgot again  ,  that Mormon book too God shall take away his part out of the book of life, and out of the holy city, and from the things which are written in this book. And the Book of Mormon , lest we forget

I see the, “ban Juni” club showed up...

Lol. Rofl.

The antagonists will stop with MORMON bashing if Juni will stop defending The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Saints!!!-!!!

Ban Juni!-!-!

Lol, rofl.

Passive aggressive post is passive aggressive.

Trump is not going to save the USA with, “Red Flag,” laws, “take the guns first” gun control, legal protections for illegals, and increasing national debt...

There are honest reasons for pro-gun conservatives to be wary of Trump and Democrat Jared Kushners policies...

None of my friends and family in Utah care about Trumps lack of character. They all care Trump is Democrat Kushners anti-gun, open-borders puppet....

There are honest reasons conservatives should be wary of Trump and Trumps puppet-master Democrat Jared Kushner...