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Posted: 9/6/2022 12:44:28 PM EDT
[#1]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Kind of apples and oranges. You would drop the 82nd to seize an objective. You would land 1st MarDiv to seize a country. Yea, this is an awful comparison. Hey guys what's better, a peterbuilt, or a porsche? |
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Posted: 9/6/2022 12:46:45 PM EDT
[#2]
Quoted: What % of an airborne division is on jump status? close to 100? We constantly jumped to maintain jump status. Only ones not jumping were guys on profile. Even HQ fucks and officers who had no business jumping jumped. This was Italy. Way more jump opportunities at Bragg. Quoted: When did that become a thing? It’s been a while, but in Iraq our SF group told our augmentees to wear the patch they came with, and I thought big Army decided the same. What the AR and NG does when they get home is probably another thing entirely. Not sure when, but you can wear whatever unit you were assigned to for deployment as a deployment patch. I saw that a lot. |
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Posted: 9/6/2022 12:46:59 PM EDT
[#3]
Quote HistoryQuoted: In an actual no shit contested mass drop isn’t the projected losses pretty bad? Like 40% combat effective after the drop or something like that? A contested amphibious landing is going to be bloody as well. The fact of the matter is that large scale combat operations against a well equipped and trained enemy will produce casualty rates that most Americans can’t comprehend anymore. As an engineer I was taught to plan for 50% casualties in breaching operations against a near peer threat. That meant any engineer unit you planned on using for the breach would need to be reconstituted afterward. |
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Posted: 9/6/2022 12:48:13 PM EDT
[#4]
Quote HistoryQuoted: We seized Afghanistan with like 10 ODA's. Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: LOL, no. You’re not seizing any country bigger than Luxembourg with a single division. We seized Afghanistan with like 10 ODA's. Probably not a good example to make the point. I doubt most Afghans noticed. |
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Posted: 9/6/2022 12:49:41 PM EDT
[#5]
Quote HistoryQuoted: What % of an airborne division is on jump status? Depends, I’ve only ever seen 1 leg in the 82nd - a warrant officer but 11th Airborne has 1 brigade on jump status but 1st brigade is not. Similar to WW2 with the glider regiments although all of 11th attended jump school by the end of the war even glider regiments if I recall. I vaguely remember a couple temporary legs at RR back in the 80s.  Attached File |
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Posted: 9/6/2022 12:52:17 PM EDT
[#6]
The 11th Airborne patch is pretty goofy.
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Posted: 9/6/2022 12:53:42 PM EDT
[#7]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Marine paratrooper > Army paratrooper https://www.ar15.com/media/mediaFiles/367483/Screen_Shot_2021-11-10_at_6_36_02_PM-2516330.png  Gold wings are nice. Had an NCO at 25th ID light fighter wearing USMC wings on his BDUs just before 9/11. He got peppered with questions daily over those wings. |
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Posted: 9/6/2022 12:55:33 PM EDT
[#8]
Quote HistoryQuoted: What makes 1st Marine Division any different than any of the other three? Please don't compare 1-3 to 4 in any way. |
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Posted: 9/6/2022 12:56:19 PM EDT
[#9]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Parachuting is just another means of insertion. It's what you do when you're on the ground that matters. Most of the 82nd units/guys I worked with were pretty damn professional and motivated. Major Allen that you? Just kidding. My CO at 1/19th SFG used to say that. |
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Posted: 9/6/2022 12:56:34 PM EDT
[#10]
Quote HistoryQuoted: They both are elite units and it is hard to quantify Having said that army units who have worked with both would rather work with the Marines. The Marines treated them fairly while the 82nd treated them with disdain. There is a lot of issues in the army in the way units are treated amongst themselves to include guard and reserve units. I saw it first hand in the 21 years I spent in the army and guard. Of course, there is. If you spend one weekend a month and one month of summer camp then claim to be as good as someone that does it 52 week a year, then either: 1. You are full of shit 2. we should disband the Army/Navy/Marines/Air force and go to 100% Guard/Reservists. There is a reason Guard/Reserve units had to go thru intensive training before heading to the sandbox. |
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Posted: 9/6/2022 1:00:09 PM EDT
[#11]
Quote HistoryQuoted: close to 100? We constantly jumped to maintain jump status. Only ones not jumping were guys on profile. Even HQ fucks and officers who had no business jumping jumped. This was Italy. Way more jump opportunities at Bragg. Not sure when, but you can wear whatever unit you were assigned to for deployment as a deployment patch. I saw that a lot. Quote HistoryQuoted: close to 100? We constantly jumped to maintain jump status. Only ones not jumping were guys on profile. Even HQ fucks and officers who had no business jumping jumped. This was Italy. Way more jump opportunities at Bragg. Not sure when, but you can wear whatever unit you were assigned to for deployment as a deployment patch. I saw that a lot. This guy says it’s 15,000. Which is it? I don’t think that people quite understand the amount of support units in a division. Quoted: There’s around 15,000 paratroopers. It’s a light infantry division with organic combat engineers, field artillery, and combat service/support. It was 100% on jump status. Not sure if it still is. |
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Posted: 9/6/2022 1:03:20 PM EDT
[#12]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Of course, there is. If you spend one weekend a month and one month of summer camp then claim to be as good as someone that does it 52 week a year, then either: 1. You are full of shit 2. we should disband the Army/Navy/Marines/Air force and go to 100% Guard/Reservists. There is a reason Guard/Reserve units had to go thru intensive training before heading to the sandbox. Pretty much every unit went through training before deploying. NTC, JRTC, etc. The thing is, when you went to training with the guard it was training. A lot of those active duty 52 weeks a year are a waste of time doing nothing. |
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Posted: 9/6/2022 1:06:09 PM EDT
[#13]
Quote HistoryQuoted: A lot of you guys are getting wrapped up in the different missions, capabilities, equipment, etc. If you were to randomly select 1000 17-21 year old Infantrymen with less than two years of service from each, 1000 22-25 with five or less years of service, and 500 26- 30, etc. Give them an IQ test, time them on the same obstacle course, 2.5 mile run, etc. you see that each are a pool of similar quality density that sought out an assignment above the average .mil gig. The will both have a quality density below that of Ranger Bn, SF, MASOC, SEALs, etc. but above the military Gen pop males. This guy gets it... Want proof?? Review the video of the Marine getting knocked out by the Aussie Bouncer. And I'm sure there are also vids showing the same thing with paratroopers. They both know how to go into town...get drunk...come back to barracks and hang the new guy from the third story balcony, 90MPH taped inside is sleeping bag. Not exactly an Eelight skill set. |
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Posted: 9/6/2022 1:06:11 PM EDT
[#14]
Quote HistoryQuoted: It’s been brigade sized for Army since WW2 so far and I still don’t have mustard stains  Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: Even in WW2 they only had a couple rgts capable. I doubt very much they can jump in with anything bigger than a company. It’s been brigade sized for Army since WW2 so far and I still don’t have mustard stains I almost got my mustard stain for Uphold Democracy back in 1994. Jimmy Carter needs to rot in hell for treason for interfering in a military operation. Idiot!
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Posted: 9/6/2022 1:07:15 PM EDT
[#15]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Pretty much every unit went through training before deploying. NTC, JRTC, etc. The thing is, when you went to training with the guard it was training. A lot of those active duty 52 weeks a year are a waste of time doing nothing. Except better maintaining physical standards, building unit cohesion, daily training, and building some sort of mental toughness that kept them from breaking down halfway through the deployment. |
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Posted: 9/6/2022 1:08:57 PM EDT
[#16]
Quote HistoryQuoted: This guy says it’s 15,000. Which is it? I don’t think that people quite understand the amount of support units in a division. You asked for percent. I said close to 100%, which is the same thing the other guys said... Support guys jump too, not just Infantry. Anyone wearing a parachutist badge who is in an airborne unit jumps. Infantry. Cooks. Chaplain. |
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Posted: 9/6/2022 1:09:05 PM EDT
[#17]
Quote HistoryQuoted: 1st Marine division has 22,000 marines the 82nd airborne has 57,000 soldiers . I'm not sure what kind of equipment both have . Fort Bragg has 57,000 Soldiers. 82nd is 17k and some change |
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Posted: 9/6/2022 1:12:07 PM EDT
[#18]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Umm, you drop the 82nd in and they run around doing their thing for a few days then what? They can only be self sufficient for a short period of time. you bring a marine division and you can spread hate and discontent for years. So yeah, ill take a division of marines every time. Plus one good SAM site can make the 82nd disappear. There’s always something. Ukraine is holding off Russia from seizing Odessa with mines |
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Posted: 9/6/2022 1:13:04 PM EDT
[#19]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Except better maintaining physical standards, building unit cohesion, daily training, and building some sort of mental toughness that kept them from breaking down halfway through the deployment. The physical standards is true. Although people in the guard that cared about physical fitness maintained that on their own. Unit cohesion is iffy because guys are only spending 3 or so years in one unit and moving around. Guard could spend 20+ years in the same place. |
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Posted: 9/6/2022 1:14:15 PM EDT
[#20]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Pretty much every unit went through training before deploying. NTC, JRTC, etc. The thing is, when you went to training with the guard it was training. A lot of those active duty 52 weeks a year are a waste of time doing nothing. No. I trained for a year before going to NTC and then deploying. We were constantly doing LFX and STX and ranges or refitting for the next exercise. Be proud of your service and especially your deployment, but NG does not and will not ever equal AD. |
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Posted: 9/6/2022 1:17:09 PM EDT
[#21]
Quote HistoryQuoted: No. I trained for a year before going to NTC and then deploying. We were constantly doing LFX and STX and ranges or refitting for the next exercise. Be proud of your service and especially your deployment, but NG does not and will not ever equal AD. I was active duty. I don't remember constantly doing LFX or STX. There was a lot of downtime. |
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Posted: 9/6/2022 1:19:48 PM EDT
[#22]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Paratrooper > Marine. Fight me. Why? So you can keep yelling, “Stop resisting.” I say they’re equal in the service of their country. |
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Posted: 9/6/2022 1:23:11 PM EDT
[#23]
Quote HistoryQuoted: I was active duty. I don't remember constantly doing LFX or STX. There was a lot of downtime. Your leadership did yall a disservice. We had a little downtime in Italy because we had to go to other countries to train. But at Hood we never stopped. Obviously I'm not saying I was in the field all day every day. Just that there was always work going on gearing up for the deployment for over a year, which is not something NG can do. |
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Posted: 9/6/2022 1:23:53 PM EDT
[#24]
Quote HistoryQuoted: The 11th Airborne patch is pretty goofy. https://www.ausa.org/sites/default/files/2022-06/HN%2011th%20ABN%20activation%202.jpg 87% of Army patches are goofy and a bunch no longer exist  Attached File |
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Posted: 9/6/2022 1:24:53 PM EDT
[#25]
Argh! The great "Me too" battle. OP must be on a binge.
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Posted: 9/6/2022 1:25:13 PM EDT
[#26]
Quote HistoryQuoted: I almost got my mustard stain for Uphold Democracy back in 1994. Jimmy Carter needs to rot in hell for treason for interfering in a military operation. Idiot! FreefallE7 was on a chalk I think? |
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Posted: 9/6/2022 1:25:57 PM EDT
[#27]
I would ask who could show up with more and have the ability to fight for a determined amount of time.
Airborne is limited to what they can bring and how they are supplied but they are by far the quickest large scale response. If you don’t have air superiority, then they will of course have an issue getting there and staying there as far as logistics. The USMC division would have some of the same issues if the Navy does control the sea lanes. The MEF does arrive with impressive firepower and supplies….. far more the an airborne division would. As for individual men…. this has been done to death and neither side is gonna say the other is better…… but we all know it’s the Marine!!! ?? |
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Posted: 9/6/2022 1:26:59 PM EDT
[#28]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Your leadership did yall a disservice. We had a little downtime in Italy because we had to go to other countries to train. But at Hood we never stopped. Obviously I'm not saying I was in the field all day every day. Just that there was always work going on gearing up for the deployment for over a year, which is not something NG can do. Timeframes may be a lot different. I was active around 2008, 2009, 2010, etc. We were going to Afghanistan a lot during that time. |
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Posted: 9/6/2022 1:28:06 PM EDT
[#29]
Wouldn't describe either as "elite". Both are best described as large conventional forces that use different methods of insertion to project power. IMHO, both are pretty good at what they do, and have a very rich history. Both are probably comprised of a similar type of young American male.
Quoted: Airborne > legs. There are actually jumpers in 1st MARDIV - but they are almost all MFF. Basic airborne is just a stepping stone if you wanna be a real jumper someday fight me 
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Posted: 9/6/2022 1:29:56 PM EDT
[#30]
Quote HistoryQuoted: This guy gets it... Want proof?? Review the video of the Marine getting knocked out by the Aussie Bouncer. And I'm sure there are also vids showing the same thing with paratroopers. They both know how to go into town...get drunk...come back to barracks and hang the new guy from the third story balcony, 90MPH taped inside is sleeping bag. Not exactly an Eelight skill set. For me personally, these are some of the “elite”  Attached File Attached File Attached File |
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Posted: 9/6/2022 1:30:58 PM EDT
[#31]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Lol. The Army's mission is to seize a country and "occupy" it. Marines are more suited for islands. This is the stupidest comment so far. Go back and look up the order of battle of the ground maneuver units going into Baghdad. |
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Posted: 9/6/2022 1:32:27 PM EDT
[#32]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Marines elite? Muhahaha. 
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Posted: 9/6/2022 1:32:47 PM EDT
[#33]
Quote HistoryQuoted: what about Marine Paratroopers? my grandfather was one... 2nd Div. Tinian, Saipan..etc...etc. My dad was in the 2nd Div also. Same places as your grandfather. Dad was on a flamethrower team. |
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Posted: 9/6/2022 1:32:54 PM EDT
[#34]
1/75
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Posted: 9/6/2022 1:34:34 PM EDT
[#35]
Quote HistoryQuoted: I was active duty. I don't remember constantly doing LFX or STX. There was a lot of downtime. A lot depends on when/where you are stationed and who you worked for. I had a platoon sergeant going through a divorce. We spent lots of extra time in Area J actually training while other units spent their afternoons cleaning clean weapons or buffing hallways. JRTC/Panama/NTC....going somewhere at least twice a year with regular field time thrown in. |
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Posted: 9/6/2022 1:38:52 PM EDT
[#36]
Quote HistoryQuoted: The physical standards is true. Although people in the guard that cared about physical fitness maintained that on their own. Unit cohesion is iffy because guys are only spending 3 or so years in one unit and moving around. Guard could spend 20+ years in the same place. That leads to inbreeding, corporate (we've always done it that way) think, favoritism, etc. |
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Posted: 9/6/2022 1:42:13 PM EDT
[#37]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Of course, there is. If you spend one weekend a month and one month of summer camp then claim to be as good as someone that does it 52 week a year, then either: 1. You are full of shit 2. we should disband the Army/Navy/Marines/Air force and go to 100% Guard/Reservists. There is a reason Guard/Reserve units had to go thru intensive training before heading to the sandbox. And yet in Iraq the guard and reserve units were trained up before deploying as you state. After being in country in combat operations they were just as good as any active unit after several months. Studies have proven that guard, reserve and even draftee units after six months in combat are just as good as their active or regular army units. Regular army units have an initial advantage of being better trained than the others stated above but that distinction fades after several months of combat. But many guard and reserve units were still treated badly by their regular army counterparts even after having proved themselves in combat. The marines treated all army units equally regardless if they were active or reserve. And the Marine reserves are treated better by their active counterparts than the army treats their reserves. And though it is true in combat units the active army has an initial big advantage in training but in the support units the distinction is not as great. There are some guard and reserve units that are better in a support role than there active duty counterparts. Maintenance units for one tend to have a higher percentage of expertise than the active duty counterparts since a lot of the soldiers are full time mechanics in the civilian world. |
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Posted: 9/6/2022 1:42:34 PM EDT
[#38]
Quote HistoryQuoted: 1/75 Savannah is very enjoyable. Seattle pre Obama had Queen Anne Hill, Pikes and some nice views of the needle and rainier. Benning sucks ass. |
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Posted: 9/6/2022 1:46:16 PM EDT
[#39]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Your leadership did yall a disservice. We had a little downtime in Italy because we had to go to other countries to train. But at Hood we never stopped. Obviously I'm not saying I was in the field all day every day. Just that there was always work going on gearing up for the deployment for over a year, which is not something NG can do. Agree. During 3 years in 1-77 Armor, 2nd Brigade, 4ID, Ft. Carson; I spent over 180 nights every year in the field. Either Tank gunnery, FTXs, TEWTs, or prep for rotations to Ft. Irwin, or deployments to Ft. Irwin (that was pre-NTC). During 4 years as an AD advisor to a reserve unit, I spent Zero nights in the field, before the intensive pre-Desert Storm deployment. |
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Posted: 9/6/2022 1:49:47 PM EDT
[#40]
Quote HistoryQuoted: And yet in Iraq the guard and reserve units were trained up before deploying as you state. After being in country in combat operations they were just as good as any active unit after several months. Studies have proven that guard, reserve and even draftee units after six months in combat are just as good as their active or regular army units. Regular army units have an initial advantage of being better trained than the others stated above but that distinction fades after several months of combat. But many guard and reserve units were still treated badly by their regular army counterparts even after having proved themselves in combat. The marines treated all army units equally regardless if they were active or reserve. And the Marine reserves are treated better by their active counterparts than the army treats their reserves. And though it is true in combat units the active army has an initial big advantage in training but in the support units the distinction is not as great. There are some guard and reserve units that are better in a support role than there active duty counterparts. Maintenance units for one tend to have a higher percentage of expertise than the active duty counterparts since a lot of the soldiers are full time mechanics in the civilian world. So you are agreeing wih me. In a "come as you are war" AD> RC/NG. NO MORE TASK FORCE SMITHs. |
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Posted: 9/6/2022 1:50:41 PM EDT
[#41]
Would a better comparison be 82nd vs older MEUSOC units? Is there currently a MEUSOC type program in place in the Marines these days?
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Posted: 9/6/2022 1:50:46 PM EDT
[#42]
Quote HistoryQuoted: My dad was in the 2nd Div also. Same places as your grandfather. Dad was on a flamethrower team. Badass  Attached File |
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Posted: 9/6/2022 1:51:30 PM EDT
[#43]
I’d say they are kind of equal however I’ve been out of the USMC for a while. One possible non-equaliser is the Army, at least used to, keep broke-dick soldiers around while the USMC didn’t. I do not know if that applied to the 82nd.
Or, as an Army buddy used to say; ‘The Army keeps the Rangers around to have a few competent infantry available.’ |
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Posted: 9/6/2022 1:52:18 PM EDT
[#44]
Quote HistoryQuoted: 87% of Army patches are goofy and a bunch no longer exist https://www.ar15.com/media/mediaFiles/459941/11A76708-5980-4F44-8AAE-E2D04C23702D_jpe-2516458.JPG You should shut your whore mouth and never again besmirch the only Airborne unit to have conducted not one, but, two, parachute combat drops during the Korean War. The 187th Airborne Regimental Combat Team patch is anything but goofy. |
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Posted: 9/6/2022 1:53:46 PM EDT
[#45]
Elite at what? Mowing grass? Coloring books? Drawing pics of dicks on everything?
It’s probably a tie when it comes to that sort of thing. |
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Posted: 9/6/2022 1:57:14 PM EDT
[#46]
Quote HistoryQuoted: So you are agreeing wih me. In a "come as you are war" AD> RC/NG. NO MORE TASK FORCE SMITHs. ? TF Smith was an AD unit. Anyway ive seen and heard all the soup sandwich talk back and forth between active and reserve officers, except with 19th or 20th SFG and it’s all white noise to me now. Active has shrunk too such a small sue it can’t perform peace time rotations on its own anymore so it’s a mute topic. 466K Army possibly dropping to 450K with Odierno terrified back in Obama days of a 420K sized Army being unable to do anything for the national defense strategy. Plus our allies have miniature and aging militaries. South Korea will cut in half by 2030. The Ukraine war is a harbinger of things to come for shortages of personnel. |
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Posted: 9/6/2022 1:58:31 PM EDT
[#47]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Marine paratrooper > Army paratrooper https://www.ar15.com/media/mediaFiles/367483/Screen_Shot_2021-11-10_at_6_36_02_PM-2516330.png Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: Paratrooper > Marine. Fight me. Quoted: This post nailed it. Marine paratrooper > Army paratrooper https://www.ar15.com/media/mediaFiles/367483/Screen_Shot_2021-11-10_at_6_36_02_PM-2516330.png Having been both enlisted army, and a Marine, and a paratrooper...this man speaks the truth.  It really isn't a fair comparison though, because ANGLICO and Reconnaissance Marines are more selectively bred group of animals than big Marine Corps. I'd put up ANGLICO or Recon as above (insert whatever other non-SOCOM, and many which are SOCOM) Army units any day. And I say that with great love for both services. |
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Posted: 9/6/2022 1:59:51 PM EDT
[#48]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Neither one is "elite" if you can be randomly assigned there by HRC. Thankfully in the Marine Corps you can't be randomly assigned to a unit that requires you to be a jumper. They are all volunteers who must pass screening assessments. |
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Posted: 9/6/2022 2:02:17 PM EDT
[#49]
Elite?
Meh to both. Solid line units? Yep. But in a fight? USMC would win just for the simple fact they have more assets organic to them and a resupply base closer. |
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Posted: 9/6/2022 2:03:54 PM EDT
[#50]
Quote HistoryQuoted: He likely slid out the back of an OV-10. Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: Quoted: Paratrooper > Marine. Fight me. This is more accurate and it actually takes some effort to get out if you aren't the number 1 jumper. More of a "scoot yourself out". |
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