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Posted: 6/15/2023 5:28:55 PM EDT
[#1]
“It’s not the plane, it’s the pilot...what is achievable comes down to the pilot in the box.” |
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Posted: 6/15/2023 5:30:14 PM EDT
[#2]
Quote HistoryQuoted: He definitely had a history by that time. I think he was dealing with some personal stuff but it seems he'd come in swinging (I think maybe he was drunk or on something because his typing/posting noticeably changed, especially in the evenings) and would just unload on people even if they innocently asked a question about an F-16 or something else figher/plane related. I know myself and several others asked him to pump the brakes a bit. I hope he's doing well and getting some help. He had a lot of knowledge but was really unhinged by the time he finally caught the banhammer imho. Without going into medical detail. Bull has a pretty serious shadow in a psychological sense. I’ve been trying for years to help him with that. But it seems that he is incapable of fully expressing his anger when appropriate. So it leaks out in inappropriate moments. |
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Posted: 6/15/2023 5:31:26 PM EDT
[#3]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Oh yeah...that goes against everything we learned between Korea and NAM. I korea we had a kill ratio of 13-1 and then in Nam it fell to 3:1 because our dog fighting skills lacked.  The biggest issue in Vietnam was the missiles were barely ever reliable. It would be like carrying a fucking Jennings. |
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Posted: 6/15/2023 5:31:38 PM EDT
[#4]
Quote HistoryQuoted: “It’s not the plane, it’s the pilot...what is achievable comes down to the pilot in the box.” Its not the man in the arena. Its the man most gay in the arena. The man who is most submissive to the man who was most gay in the arena. Victory goes to that man. |
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Posted: 6/15/2023 5:32:02 PM EDT
[#5]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Without going into medical detail. Bull has a pretty serious shadow in a psychological sense. I've been trying for years to help him with that. But it seems that he is incapable of fully expressing his anger when appropriate. So it leaks out in inappropriate moments. Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: He definitely had a history by that time. I think he was dealing with some personal stuff but it seems he'd come in swinging (I think maybe he was drunk or on something because his typing/posting noticeably changed, especially in the evenings) and would just unload on people even if they innocently asked a question about an F-16 or something else figher/plane related. I know myself and several others asked him to pump the brakes a bit. I hope he's doing well and getting some help. He had a lot of knowledge but was really unhinged by the time he finally caught the banhammer imho. Without going into medical detail. Bull has a pretty serious shadow in a psychological sense. I've been trying for years to help him with that. But it seems that he is incapable of fully expressing his anger when appropriate. So it leaks out in inappropriate moments. 
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Posted: 6/15/2023 5:36:16 PM EDT
[#6]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Its not the man in the arena. Its the man most gay in the arena. The man who is most submissive to the man who was most gay in the arena. Victory goes to that man. To quote Eclipsa here...  Sort of a Sword Hand Dance? Looks like fun. 
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Posted: 6/15/2023 5:37:10 PM EDT
[#7]
Quote HistoryQuoted: I appreciate you trying. Would love for him to get it fixed and maybe get a reprieve and join this motley crew of hooligans again. Up to the moderators I suppose... |
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Posted: 6/15/2023 5:53:24 PM EDT
[#8]
When the press was hot over the new Top Gun, there was a podcast that interviewed a former Top Gun instructor. He said 95% came down to pilot skill and experience - the instructors could fly rings around the trainees because they had so much more airtime.
He said he mostly flew F16s because that's what they were using as "enemy" aircraft. He said he did fly against an F15 once in a joint training exercise with the Air Force, and the F15 pilot made him look stupid. I wish I could remember his name or the podcast. It might have been one of these guys:  TOPGUN Instructors React to 'Top Gun: Maverick' |
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Posted: 6/15/2023 6:07:05 PM EDT
[#9]
Tag
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Posted: 6/15/2023 6:09:16 PM EDT
[#10]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Up to the moderators I suppose... Hesperus is thinking "how do I make something involving F-15s and F-18s more gay without saying 'Naval Flight Officer?'" Fucking genius dude. Motherfucking genius. |
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Posted: 6/15/2023 7:01:09 PM EDT
[#11]
Quote HistoryQuoted: 16 511rnds Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: I don't think that's correct. If my Google fu is working the F-15 has 960 rounds while the 16 has 830. 16 511rnds I think the 15 actually carries slightly less canon ammo |
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Posted: 6/15/2023 8:47:19 PM EDT
[#12]
Quote HistoryQuoted: She used to be a member here, but lost interest She sounds like a keeper
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Posted: 6/15/2023 9:06:32 PM EDT
[#13]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Hesperus is thinking "how do I make something involving F-15s and F-18s more gay without saying 'Naval Flight Officer?'" Fucking genius dude. Motherfucking genius. I'm not understanding the joke. I realize you are a .mil pilot, but can't figure out what you piloted. I understand I am dumb, and accept that. |
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Posted: 6/15/2023 9:18:44 PM EDT
[#14]
Quote HistoryQuoted: I'm not understanding the joke. I realize you are a .mil pilot, but can't figure out what you piloted. I understand I am dumb, and accept that. Fuck no. I can however do IOE in under 25 hours, so there is that. I just make fun of military pilots. |
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Posted: 6/15/2023 9:21:43 PM EDT
[#15]
F-16 > F-18 > F-15 in a dogfight
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Posted: 6/15/2023 9:37:06 PM EDT
[#16]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Fuck no. I can however do IOE in under 25 hours, so there is that. I just make fun of military pilots. I am legitimately lost and have no idea what you are talking about. I guess I'm not part of the cool crowd. |
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Posted: 6/15/2023 9:58:24 PM EDT
[#17]
I am not a fighter pilot. Not even played DCS.
BUT. Before the merge F-15 AT the merge and past the merge F-16 F-18 splashed in the ocean after take off. |
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Posted: 6/15/2023 10:03:43 PM EDT
[#18]
Quote HistoryQuoted: F-16 > F-18 > F-15 in a dogfight a 15 can out-dogfight an F18 |
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Posted: 6/16/2023 2:23:34 PM EDT
[#19]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Just when I really start to think this place is becoming a lost cause a real SME posts something like that and keeps me around. For anyone interested in this exact scenario look up Growling Sidewinder on YouTube. Yes, it's a simulator with civilians flying but he has a ton of videos dogfighting different stuff. The F-16 kills just about everything in a rate fight. Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: Quoted: I heard my name being called The F16 and F18 are multirole combat aircraft and very capable, and the pilots need to be proficient in everything they do, not just air to air. However theF15 is optimized for air to air and that is all the pilot does. In a BVR environment I think the F15 has the edge both in experience of the pilot and capability of the jet. But it does hinge on pilot capability and can go either way. Adding in the complexity of large scale ops in a hostile environment I think the Eagle has a clear advantage. In a training configuration which is what we mostly do, the F16 can turn up it's own asshole and in a close in fight in clean configuration the F16 is a clearly superior turning machine. The F18 clearly has better maneuverability very slow speed, less than 200 knots, but again in a real fight if you are below 200 knots you are fucked if there is more than 1 threat. However, nobody hits the merge real world with a single missile on the rails and nobody willing throws out the anchor to fight below 200 knots, because in a near peer battle, we are out numbered and a sitting duck with limited ordinance and / or slow speed. In a combat configuration with a full load of missiles except for the ones employed on the way to the merge, I think the F15 can turn tighter that both the F16 and F18, and accelerate faster with a combat load The Eagle is big, but because it is big with big motors, it can do more G and sustain airspeed better than the F16 and F18 with a bunch of missiles hanging out in the air. But I am going back many years, things may have changed and I have never fought either jet with a combat load. Being optimized for air to air has an advantage in a real multi aircraft engagement but the outcome squarely rests with the pilot. Great stuff! Just when I really start to think this place is becoming a lost cause a real SME posts something like that and keeps me around. For anyone interested in this exact scenario look up Growling Sidewinder on YouTube. Yes, it's a simulator with civilians flying but he has a ton of videos dogfighting different stuff. The F-16 kills just about everything in a rate fight.  F/A-18C Hornet Vs F-15C Eagle | DOGFIGHT | Digital Combat Simulator | DCS |  How Good Is The New Eagle ? | F-15EX Eagle Vs F-16 Viper | Intercept | Digital Combat Simulator |  F-15EX Eagle II Vs F-16C Viper | BVR | Digital Combat Simulator | DCS | |
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Posted: 6/18/2023 7:32:37 PM EDT
[#20]
Quote HistoryQuoted: a 15 can out-dogfight an F18 I have no clue, but Ryan Bodenheimer, a retired F15E flight commander and F16 Thunderbird pilot, said he would rather dogfight an f18 in an f16 than an f15. Something to do with the F18's superior low speed maneuverability over the F15. FF all the way to the end @ 23 minute mark.  Fighter Pilot Reacts To SU-57 vs F-18 Top Gun Maverick |
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Posted: 6/18/2023 7:36:55 PM EDT
[#21]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Depends on definition of dog fight. Close in with guns it’s probably the 16. Simple air to air using missiles as soon as in range…Eagle This. The F-16 outrates everything except maybe 2-3 aircraft. That's great in a gunfight. But the Eagle is going to smash an F-16 in BVR. |
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Posted: 6/18/2023 7:38:36 PM EDT
[#22]
Quote HistoryQuoted: F18 is technically limited to 7.5G's the 15 and 16 can pull 9 I recently saw a documentary where a Top Gun instructor pulled 10. |
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Posted: 6/18/2023 7:41:21 PM EDT
[#23]
Quote HistoryQuoted: The F15 would just punch it to create distance, then reengage. It has a shit ton more thrust than a F16 so can create distance. Let countermeasures handle the missiles that would be inbound. I know nothing about modern dogfighting, as my post clearly shows... If you try to extend away from a close in dogfight, the other plane is just going to Fox 2 you. |
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Posted: 6/18/2023 8:10:43 PM EDT
[#24]
Quote HistoryQuoted: If you try to extend away from a close in dogfight, the other plane is just going to Fox 2 you. If you stay in a "close in dogfight," the other plane is just going to Fox 2 you with JHMCS. If he's running away, he's getting a Fox 3. |
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Posted: 6/18/2023 8:17:16 PM EDT
[#25]
Quote HistoryQuoted: You need a hades bomb too. Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: Depends if the F-16 driver has an awesome soundtrack strapped to his leg. You need a hades bomb too. An F-16 can land, fire AGM-65s into parked F-15s and takeoff unscathed. Doesn’t even need to dogfight. |
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Posted: 6/18/2023 10:13:10 PM EDT
[#26]
Quote HistoryQuoted: If you try to extend away from a close in dogfight, the other plane is just going to Fox 2 you. That's what flares are for... |
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Posted: 6/19/2023 7:48:40 AM EDT
[#27]
Quote HistoryQuoted: That's what Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: If you try to extend away from a close in dogfight, the other plane is just going to Fox 2 you. That's what Fixed No one is using flares to consistently shed AIM-9Xs. |
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Posted: 6/19/2023 10:21:16 PM EDT
[#28]
AIM-9x is just a beast of an IR missile.
And I know the IR missile tech has gone beyond the countermeasures. At least American IR missiles. |
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Posted: 6/19/2023 10:42:51 PM EDT
[#29]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Fuck no. I can however do IOE in under 25 hours, so there is that. I just make fun of military pilots. HA! |
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Posted: 6/19/2023 10:43:55 PM EDT
[#30]
F15 is sexier. So I'll say f15
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Posted: 6/19/2023 10:54:35 PM EDT
[#31]
Quoted: I think people have thrown around this question a bit. I saw this article and had to read it. Upon reading it, a friend I know had to call BS on the prospective of the F-15 being slow. That is simply absurd. I would be interested in hearing what the pilots and aviation types here have to say. For the sake of discussion, let us consider the optimum version of each of these. I would suppose those would be : F-15 EX F-16V (Block 70/72) F-18 E/F (Block III) https://theaviationgeekclub.com/f-15-vs-f-16-vs-f-a-18-the-aircrews-perspective/ There are some guys that post here that actually flew combat aircraft that can probably chime in. My limited understanding comes from reading accounts written by others. What those accounts tell me is that it’s probably the F16 since it was more or less designed as a dogfighter. In a rate fight, it’s better than the other two. However the situation is not that cut and dried. The F18 is said to be a world class one circle dogfighter. It should lose to the F16 in a rate fight but defeat the F16 in a one circle fight. The F15 I haven’t seen as much written about except that it’s a world class fighter when fighting at beyond visual range. It also is supposed to have unusually good maneuverability at high altitude and a very good radar system. My uneducated opinion is that the real winner of the guy who has more flight hours in his machine and/or more actual combat experience. |
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Posted: 6/19/2023 10:57:01 PM EDT
[#32]
These questions come up fairly often, and I used to actively participate in them. There used to be quite a bit of .mil aviation guys here, sadly I dont see them post much anymore. According to GD the only guys that actually know the answer, ironically; have never been around a .mil jet.
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Posted: 6/19/2023 11:09:25 PM EDT
[#33]
I vote 16 because the 15 pilot is always cocky and ends up making a mistake. How many times every year does an Eagle do a rejoin on red air at red flag exercises? F-16 vs F-18, the hornet does weird cobra shit while the overshooting viper doing an auto-gcas manuever ends up lighting a path for a 9x. Whatever happens, many multi-hundred page books will come out of it. Grab your signed copy today!
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Posted: 6/19/2023 11:12:49 PM EDT
[#34]
Quote HistoryQuoted: I think the 15 actually carries slightly less canon ammo Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: Quoted: I don't think that's correct. If my Google fu is working the F-15 has 960 rounds while the 16 has 830. 16 511rnds I think the 15 actually carries slightly less canon ammo Nope. The Eagle carries over 900 rounds. |
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Posted: 6/19/2023 11:16:31 PM EDT
[#35]
The 18 is the more modern of the bunch so Ima go with F18
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Posted: 6/19/2023 11:21:07 PM EDT
[#36]
The ghost of Robin Olds piloting an F4 that you think is an F105. That's the one.
Fighter Pilot is an attitude. |
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Posted: 6/20/2023 10:31:59 AM EDT
[#37]
Quote HistoryQuoted: I have no clue, but Ryan Bodenheimer, a retired F15E flight commander and F16 Thunderbird pilot, said he would rather dogfight an f18 in an f16 than an f15. Something to do with the F18's superior low speed maneuverability over the F15. FF all the way to the end @ 23 minute mark.  https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=T9yJTgDr6ZsTrue, if you get something like <400kts, the 18 cna out turn just about anything. |
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Posted: 6/20/2023 10:38:47 AM EDT
[#38]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Nope. The Eagle carries over 900 rounds. That's weird, according to both General Dynamics and Jane's All the World's Aircraft, the M61A1 loadout for the F15 is 500 rounds |
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Posted: 6/20/2023 10:42:48 AM EDT
[#39]
Su-75
Also, F-35 is great at CAS and Marine One is a helicopter |
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Posted: 6/20/2023 10:57:13 AM EDT
[#40]
Quote HistoryQuoted: That's weird, according to both General Dynamics and Jane's All the World's Aircraft, the M61A1 loadout for the F15 is 500 rounds The Strike Eagle "only" carries 510, cost of having a second crew member. |
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Posted: 6/20/2023 11:07:49 AM EDT
[#41]
Quote HistoryQuoted: It's thread like this where I miss CMjohnson coming up in here and giving us his authoritative answer to every fighter question. Ha! I remember him! He would even argue with real fighter pilots! |
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Posted: 6/20/2023 12:28:51 PM EDT
[#42]
Quote HistoryQuoted: The Strike Eagle "only" carries 510, cost of having a second crew member. That makes sense, thanks |
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Posted: 6/20/2023 12:39:11 PM EDT
[#43]
Quote HistoryQuoted: If you try to extend away from a close in dogfight, the other plane is just going to Fox 2 you. You might be surprised at just how short the max range is of a missile going after a receding target. |
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Posted: 6/20/2023 12:45:51 PM EDT
[#44]
Quote HistoryQuoted: These questions come up fairly often, and I used to actively participate in them. There used to be quite a bit of .mil aviation guys here, sadly I dont see them post much anymore. According to GD the only guys that actually know the answer, ironically; have never been around a .mil jet. It is mostly that a discussion like this is pointless. Just in the same way that a football game or a F1 race isn't a match of statistics, so neither is a dogfight. It is a mix of aircraft capabilities, pilot skill, and essentially random circumstances which make it impossible to wargame an answer to. Every match up is going to differ, and the tipping point between success and failure often rests on execution errors or chance events that nobody can predict. There's a reason why the standard fighter pilot answer to a question is, "it depends." But sadly nobody wants to hear a nuanced answer...and after the 100th attempt to point out a nuanced answer and having people with no experience in the arena declare that you're wrong...it is easier to just sit back and watch. |
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Posted: 6/20/2023 12:48:30 PM EDT
[#45]
AWACS spots the other plane 200 miles away and crosslinks the info to you. You never turn on your radar.
You approach from any angle you want and launch an AMRAAM D from 75 miles or so. Go home and watch Netflix. I have no idea why ARFCOM is so hung up on fighting like the Red Baron. |
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Posted: 6/20/2023 12:53:21 PM EDT
[#46]
Quote HistoryQuoted:I have no idea why ARFCOM is so hung up on fighting like the Red Baron. Probably because every large force exercise in the world repeatedly proves that GCI/AWACS and ASEA radars aren't magical 4D prismatic rotating all-aspect SA, and unobserved entries and random surprise merges occur regularly. Even with datalink, JHMCS, and every other toy. |
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Posted: 6/20/2023 12:58:01 PM EDT
[#47]
Quote HistoryQuoted: AWACS spots the other plane 200 miles away and crosslinks the info to you. You never turn on your radar. You approach from any angle you want and launch an AMRAAM D from 75 miles or so. Go home and watch Netflix. I have no idea why ARFCOM is so hung up on fighting like the Red Baron. It's cooler and manlier. Watching arty blast helpless targets is fun. Watching tanks engage with direct fire is way way more exciting. |
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Posted: 6/20/2023 12:59:51 PM EDT
[#48]
Quote HistoryQuoted: That's weird, according to both General Dynamics and Jane's All the World's Aircraft, the M61A1 loadout for the F15 is 500 rounds Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: Nope. The Eagle carries over 900 rounds. That's weird, according to both General Dynamics and Jane's All the World's Aircraft, the M61A1 loadout for the F15 is 500 rounds Look up F-15C 940 rounds |
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Posted: 6/20/2023 9:21:33 PM EDT
[#49]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Look up F-15C 940 rounds I have worked C's for a long time, I always see 880 as the number. I need to ask them why. Also I've noticed that when they are ferrying with 3 tanks and travel pods the round count will be really low, like REALLY low. Weight is my guess, they seem to struggle to get off the deck in full burner (I know better but you get my drift). |
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Posted: 6/20/2023 9:52:13 PM EDT
[#50]
Quote HistoryQuoted: I have worked C's for a long time, I always see 880 as the number. I need to ask them why. Also I've noticed that when they are ferrying with 3 tanks and travel pods the round count will be really low, like REALLY low. Weight is my guess, they seem to struggle to get off the deck in full burner (I know better but you get my drift). Never flew Cs, how often were they flying with live rounds? On the Es, setting the counter to >799 (900 was standard) hydraulically safed the gun. |
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