I just received from Wideners a 300 round box of Remington M855 loose packed cartridges.

Box is marked :
Federal Ammunition
XM855F3
5.56mm
62 GR M855 Ball
LCAAP Rifle Cartridges

Rounds are loose packed in a plastic, zip tied bag inside the box.

This is the first M855 I've ever purchased and if I like it would assume I will buy more. But my question I guess is - is this 1st, run, 2nd run, rejected lot?  I've learned a good bit reading thru this thread but now I'm confused as to "1st run" , etc.

Very few people here are shooting opponents, unarmored or otherwise.

One benefit would be that most sights, think A2, carry handle,LMT,KAC.. or military type optics, ACOG, Elcan, ... are calibrated for the 62gr round.



 

This is the biggest bunch of BS on the internet. US made ammo is NOT rejects or seconds. It is first run ammo loaded to commercial specs.



Read this and change your song, you've been spreading that BS for too long.





 

So, if what you say is correct (and since I read that on the internet it must be ) we have two variations of M193 ammo being sold.

One is US made first run loaded to 223 specs and not 5.56X45 specs and we know this because it has an added designation before the M193 like an "X"

Then we have M855 ammo which at least some (all???) is in fact military rejected lots and had been marked "Not for Duty Use" and this also has the "X" in front but that ammo is actually loaded to 5.56X45 M955 specs. SGA stated they removed the "Not for duty use" sticker and raised the prcie but it is the same ammo

Do I have that correct or are there two variations of XM855 one the rejected 5.56 loaded ammo and a first run 223 loaded version and how do we know which is which?

I do not mind being wrong and being corrected. It beats the crap out of continuing to be wrong

Wulfmann

Using your link to the XM193 ammo I noticed a couple things.
they do not show M855 as a product and they have a Frequently asked question link and on that it stated:

Q: What are the differences between .223 and 5.56mm?

A: There are small differences that make each of these calibers unique. Most notably are the standards in which pressure is tested and measured. You can put .223 ammunition into a 5.56mm chamber, but not the other way around due to these pressure variances.

This seems to say they have loaded the XM193 down to 223 standards so it would work well in any 223 chambered gun (according to the linked page which stated:
• XM193 product is first run, first quality product manufactured at Lake City Army Ammunition Plant for Federal Cartridge and is made to Federal specifications typical for commercial ammunition. and "Manufactured to Visual Military Standards" (Notice "visual standards" not standards).

That also seems to indicate if you want "real" M193 ammo the IMI or other foreign ammo would (could, check to see) be a higher pressure, higher velocity ammo.

Since the range that optimal frag is 50 yards or less in a 16" barrel i would think it there is any intention of using this for SD "real" M193 would be a better choice (although I agree there are too many better choices for SD)

It was easier to understand why an entire batch of Federal XM193 was popping primers when it was thought to be rejected lots. So, what was their excuse for those failures???

Wulfmann

Its NOT my SD ammo, its my stacking ammo.  

Its:
Cheap
Sealed
Penetrates
Cheap
Sealed
Penetrates
Brass
Cheap
Reliable
Cheap


I understand its limitations, and DO have good amounts of SD ammo...  

At this point, I see it as whats better if you have 1k to spend?   2800 round of m855 or 1000 or fewer rounds of your super sophicitcated SD ammo.....after you already have 1k or so rounds of your super duper sd ammo.

Wulman we are saying the same thing. My point is if you buy a Spikes Tactical, Bravo Company or a PSA generally speaking you will be getting a 1:7 barrel. I personally perfer a 1:9 twist for most applications but many manufactures are going 1:7 to be milspec.

Are you rally that dense? I've highlighted the relevant specs that we, as non military, are most concerened with.
MIL-C-9963F
3.1 General. - The cartridge shall comply with Drawing D10523632,



referenced specifications and the following:
3.2 Bullet extraction. -The force required to extract the bullet



from the cartridge case shall be not less than 35 pounds.
3.3 Residual stress. -The cartridge case shall not split when subjected



to a 1% mercurous nitrate solution for 15 minutes.
3.4 Waterproof.-The cartridge shall not release more than one bubble



of air when subjected to an internal pressure differential of 7½ pounds per



square inch (psi) for 30 seconds.
3.5 Accuracy. -The average of the mean radii of all targets of the



sample cartridges, fired at 200 yards, shall not exceed 2.0 inches.
3.6 Velocitv.-The average velocity of the sample cartridges,



conditioned at 70° ± 2° Fahrenheit (F), shall be 3165 feet per second



(ft/sec) plus or minus 40 ft/see, at 78 feet from the muzzle of the weapon.



The standard deviation of the velocities shall not exceed 40 ft/sec.
3.7 Chamber pressure.
3.7.1 Measurement by copper-crush cylinder.-The average chamber pressure



of the sample cartridges, conditioned at 70° ± 2°F, shall not exceed



52,000 pounds per square inch (PSI). The average chamber pressure plus



three standard deviations of chamber pressure shall not exceed 58,000 PSI.
3.7.2 Measurement by piezoelectric transducer.-The average chamber



pressure of the sample cartridges, conditioned at 70° ± 2°F, shall not



exceed 55,000 PSI. The average chamber pressure plus three standard



deviations of chamber pressure shall not exceed 61,000 PSI.
3.8 port pressure.
3.8.1 Measurement by copper-crush cylinder. -The average port pressure



of the sample cartridges, conditioned at 70° ± 2°F, shall be 15,000 PSI ±



2000 PSI,
3.8.2 Measurement by piezoelectric transducer. -The average pore



pressure of the sample cartridges, conditioned at 70° ± 2°F, shall be



14,400 PSI ± 2000 PSI.
3.9 Temperature stability.-When the sample cartridges are subjected



to the following storage conditions, the average velocity shall not



decrease by more than 250 ft/sec and the average chamber pressure by



either method used in 3.7 shall not increase by more than 5000 PSI.



the average port pressure by either method used in 3.8 shall neither Also ,



increase nor decrease by more than 2000 PSI with respect to the average



velocity, chamber pressure and port pressure of the sample cartridges of



the same lot, conditioned at 70° ± 2°F for a minimum of twenty minutes.



Any increases in velocity and decreases in chamber pressure of the sample



cartridges under these temperature conditions are acceptable.
Stored at 125° ± 2°F for not less than one hour and fired at that



temperature.
Stored at -65° ± 5°F for not less than one hour and fired at that



temperature.
3.10 Function and casualty.-The cartridge shall function without



casualty at ambient temperature and under the conditions specified in 3.9.
3.11 Stripping.-The jacket of the bullet, or any part thereof, shall



not separate from the slug when the cartridge is fired.
3.12 Fouling. -The fouling accumulated In the weapon during the firing



of 1000 sample cartridges shall not cause failure of the weapon to function.
3.13 Workmanship. -The requirements for workmanship are as specified



on the applicable drawings, referenced specifications and the following:
3.13.1 Metal defects.-The cartridge shall be free of folds, wrinkles,



deep draw scratches, scaly metal, dents and other defects.
3.13.2 Foreign matter.-The cartridge shall be free of corrosion, stains,



discolorations, dirt, oil, and smears of lacquer.
XM193
 • CALIBER: 5.56 mm, manufactured at the Lake City Army Ammunition Plant (LCAAP)




     • CASE: Brass (Copper Alloy No. 260)




     • BULLET: 55 gr. FMJ Boat-Tail




     • PRIMER: M41 Operating Range: (-40 degrees to +125 degrees F)




     • PRIMER SEALANT: Water resistant lacquer




     • CASE MOUTH SEALANT: Yes




     • CASE KNURL: No




     • HEADSTAMP: Each loaded cartridge shall be headstamped with the manufacturer's symbol and year of manufacture




    • ACCURACY: 3-10round groups not to exceed 2.00" mean radius maximum average at 200 yards




    • INSTRUMENTAL VELOCITY: 3165 +/- 40 FPS (78 feet from muzzle) using a 5.56 test barrel, 20" long




     • ENERGY: 1223 Ft-Lbs. at 78’




     • CHAMBER PRESSURE: Piezotronic maximum average per 10 rounds - 55000 PSI in 5.56 test barrel (case mouth location)




     • BULLET PULL: Minimum individual 35 lbs.




     • PROPELLANT DETECTION: 100% mechanical/electronic detection of propellant levels within the cartridge




     • VISUAL INSPECTION: 100% visual inspection of finished cartridges prior to packaging




     • WARNING: For use in standard 5.56 mm chambers. Do not use in non-standard 5.56 chambers.




     • PACKAGING: 20 Rounds per carton. 25 cartons per 500 round case.
That is the same specs as military M193. The difference is the Bill Clinton did away with sales of US military surplus ammo. Read that carefully MILITARY SURPLUS. This means the surplus ammo that is OWNED by the US military and deemed as surplus.
If it was never owned by the military it cannot be military surplus. It ain't really that hard to understand.
Is this made as military spec ammo? No military spec ammo must go through more stringent inspection and testing, this does not, it is there for not military but commercial spec. It is however made at the same plant, on the same machines, by the same people, using the same brass, primers, bullets, sealent and powder. It is loaded to the same pressure and tested for the same velocity on the same equipment using the same testing procedure.



,



Do you really think that they shut the lines down, change out all the components powder in order to run a look alike cartridge that they can then lie to the shooting public into thinking it is 5.56 when, as you now claim, it is a totally different .223 round?





 

 

IMI M855 is good ammo.

Indeed. I wish we could get more.



 

Nothing blows up rocks at the quarry better than xm855.....

Very satisfying.

Well apparently I ain't gots no good book lernen likes yous do so pleeze forgives me for my dumb questions sir


So I must be that dense

So you make an obscure remark highlight dubious data that refers to nothing at least in the sense of making any point and expect someone you believe to be deficient in discerning data to understand it without comparative analysis or any relevance

I went to the site posted their very remarks and you disagreed with them??? And, that is my fault!!

Well, at least it is entertaining


Wulfmann

Damn, you really are that ignorant.
The "obscure remark, highlighted dubious information"is a direct quote from MIL-C-9963F, MILITARY SPECIFICATION: CARTRIDGE, 5.56MM, BALL, M193 [S/S BY MIL-DTL-9963G (CONTROLLED DISTRIBUTION)]., This
specification covers Cartridge, 5.56MM, Ball, M193, for use in the
5.56MM weapons. (Google it Einstein.)
The other is directly from the Federal website.
What they show when you compare the data, the part I highlighted for you in both listing so you didn't need to even look too hard for it, is that the XM193 and the M193 share the EXACT SAME pressure, velocity, bullet, bullet pull (seating), i.e. the important parts that effect the ballistics of the round.
As for disagreeing with what is posted on their site, it is you that is disagreeing. I showed you exactly where they list it as full pressure, full velocity, first run  5.56mm yet you insist on saying it is .223.
You still haven't addressed the issue that you are wrong about the seconds/rejects classification. Now your wrong about the caliber designation, and you haven't even commented on how anything can be military surplus if it was never made for, or under the control or possession of the military.
Welcome to my ignore list.
 

/fail

i think some of the xm ammo is up to mill spec but some clearly is not.

the recent xm855 '11 headstamp seems very high quality by all reports and they may just be blowing out NOS because of the new round.

Why not use it? high quality, cheap enough to use on the range in high quantities, accurate, many optics are calibrated for it.

and lets not forget zombies.

Obviously m855 isnt the best for SD, I have 2 mags loaded with TAP 75gr for SD and once that runs out I have 2K m855 and 500 of wolf. Same reason I use Speer gold dots in my FNX9 and G19 and have other magazines loaded with 115gr FMJ.

How much self defense ammo do you really need for a civilian?  If a bad guy decides to come in my house at night I am probably not going to need even a full magazine. But seeing as the good SD ammo is to expensive for when it is Book of Eli/zombie land outside M855 is a good back up

Im not obsessed with em but I grab em when I can. Its just another type of ammo to me and for a certain type of task ;penetration.

WTF? Is this the zombie forum?
M855 is plenty good enough for un-armored (read: home invaders) roaches. I used in the mil, and and have it in one of my HD mags.

If I remember correctly, The ammo was loaded really hot. resulting in throat errosion.

I think there should be a new Global Law for the Internet.  

Avatars should be outlawed and some method developed by which you are guaranteed to see the actual photo of the person/meat-sack posting remarks to every entry in every forum.  

It would be sooo helpful...so enlightening....just before you click ignore on some of these clowns.

I'm returning to the AR world since I finally replaced my Colt Sporter I sold a decade ago...but dear Lord some of these threads leave me weak from wading through the misinformation and bull-shit...

I'm not kidding here...I'm physically weak...and I take supplements and work-out...and I'm only in my mid-50s.

do you think it possible they are not getting/telling the whole story?


i do.

whats not possible is the bad ammo that has been shot that was not milspec not to be possible.

What about IMI ammo sold in the US - is it Mil spec?
Can you buy true Mil Spec?

IMI, LC m855 and X-Tac are all mil spec.

Yes, and it's the BEST M855 out there in my humble opinion.

 

obsession? nope. I just think its people wanting to use the stuff the military uses. Hell, I even find my self buying mil-spec stuff. I also know that mil-spec means the lowest price that will meet the military's specifications.

Wideners has the IMI in stock right now. Better Get Some. I did. $408 for 1200.

Those of you arguing with Wulfmann, just take a look at this thread he started to know what kind of mind you're up against:

http://www.ar15.com/forums/t_1_5/1319226_Has_China_bought_all_Privi_contracts_for_future_ammo___.html

Fixed it for you.





 

Personal attacks.  If you're going to disagree in a tech forum, do it in a respectful manner.

unlocke

I think what Wulfmann was getting at was that in some states it is legal to shoot through your (closed) front door, therefore the "barrier defeater" which might just end the situation before it unfolds further. In a home invasion any bullet would probably do. The problem with using M855 for SD comes down really to urban environments. You are accountable for every round you fire. So if a Penetrator round were to hit someone at your front door, go through them (remember bullets are unpredictable at this point) and go across the street, through a wall or window and hit your neighbors daughter, you are responsible. That being said, not every one lives in the city, but not everyone lives in the country either.

Indeed you can!

I inspected some rounds from my box (did not count and inspect each individual round- just grabbed a handful and had a look). I noticied about every other round a small ding in the cartridge casing. Bullets seemed seated correctly. My hands were dirty after handling.

Any cause to be concerned with the dings?

No.

 

I'm gonna repeat what has been said. My in-laws live 4 miles from lake city ammo plant. I've fallen asleep listening to 20mm vulcan test runs many a night.  They have many friends who work there.  One of the girls in my wedding party worked on the 7.62 line.

They tell stores all the time of pulling down huge lots (millions of rounds, Gaylords full) of mil Rounds. Those are rejects, those are seconds. They are not sold to us.  If its part of a mil run its for the mil, if something is off it gets pulled down. Clinton did it with the stroke of a pen.  It will never be sold to the public even if it sits on a base and rots for years.

You also have to understand that m193 isn't bought by the military any more. So whos Seconds could they be if no one is buying the firsts. Surprise it's all made just for us.

And everyone, every company sends out bad stuff from time to time. Seeing some of the thinking In this thread I'm surprised people don't say some of the crappier built ARs are just seconds/rejects they sell to the public.

Posted Via AR15.Com Mobile

Pics, please

sweet, i thought  they used it for training.

A friend of mine recently finished basic, he was telling me that they were using the "green" version of M855 which has an all steel core for training but were told they would be issued steel penetrator/lead core M855 upon deployment.

So is the M855 they sell on the commercial market over run? Rejects? What is it?

My question is: Does the ammo the military receives look as shitty as the stuff we are sold?

You beat me to this.
I have been wondering for a while who the XM193 rejects were rejected by since I have not seen any military contracts for M193 in quite a while.

I highly doubt they are actually rejects. I have heard this for years, however, this ammo looks EXACTLY like the ammo I was issued in the army.
Same small dents, same dirty looking brass.

Think about it this way....
As lawsuit happy as people are these days,
you are going to take a product that has already failed some test or QC, re-package it to sell to a litigious public?
Just waiting for an accident?

I thought many branches such as the Navy and Airforce still have 1/12 twist M16 uppers and still use M193.

What about the M855 marked "not for duty use"? Was it the same as the M855 that doesn't have those markings?

I do not know why they had those labels on some cans and not others.
I never saw (in person) or bought any cans that had that label. All the ammo I bought in those 420rnd ammo cans looked just like issue ammo.

You could e-mail them and ask.

I still don't think the .gov buys enough M193 anymore to generate the " XM193 is floor sweepings argument"