yea your right,  I bought a small amsec safe last year and changed out the keypad for a XL20 ( so I could have multiple user codes).  I remembered the old lock having a single battery and could of swore it was a XL10.   Nope.  It was a ESL5

Question for tsg? In the process of installing my electronic lock and noticed all these hole being the dial ring. I know the top and bottom center screws should be there but, what about the one offset to the side in upper left? I've seen a few things that make me wonder if they've brought me a returned safe. This is an fv6032." />

That's weird. It doesn't look like a hole drilled to open the safe, it's in the wrong place. It may be an oops hole when they drilled the holes for the dial ring mounts. How deep is that hole?

I'm very ignorant when it comes to electricity, but I've read that Gunvault also recommends name brand only (Duracell I think) b/c many of the other 9V batteries use resistors?? I think to try to look good in high-drain testing equipment.  I have no idea if this is true though.

It's about the same depth as the ring mounting holes. So it's probably and oops then. I'm going to have to call the store I got it from and ask for and exchange anyways. The locksmith I got it from did way to much damage to it for me to accept this one. I asked for the mechanical version and they just took an electronic and switched out the lock to mechanical themselves. In doing so they used the wrong screws for the lock. These were long screws you can see they cut down. They then proceeded to run them in with an impact driver and strip all the threads off the screws and mounting holes. The screws were cut so short that on 2 of them there was barely one thread sticker through the lock mechanism. They stripped almost every screw on the door organizer/bolt work cover. He did this with the impact for sure because I saw him do it. Didn't know they were stripped until last night. The drywall in the door cover is broken on the bottom also(I'm sure it's from them using the impact again). Only had the safe for 2 weeks. Glad I found this now.

Well, when an electronics engineer talks about batteries, they use resistance to represent the properties of the battery with regards to battery charge and discharge characteristics. There is no "resistors" in a battery. However, the components and chemistry of the battery "resist" the delivery of current. Those are not terms we commonly use when we discuss battery capacity and current delivery potential.

Ever see the inside of a 9V battery? it's an array of six small 1.5V batteries wired in series. They are smaller that AAA cells. Check it out...

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That's pretty cool! I never realized that.

Just a side note:  Those smaller "AAA" cells can be used in AAA devices in a pinch.

Hi guys, brand new member here.

I actually joined this forum - just to make this post.  

I wanted to say thank you to TSG for posting all the information that you did.  It really helped finalize my decision on which safe to buy.  

My new Brown/Brass/ESL10XL BF6030 arrived yesterday and while I am really bummed about the shipping scuff it got during its trip across the country (Right on the door of all places  My dealer is working to get me some paint, IMO not the fault of AMSEC or the dealer - just my bad luck), the safe itself is exactly what I wanted.  While I hope that it is never tested, I have faith that I put my money in the right product for both fire and burglary protection.  

Another nifty but completely useless plus - If the dates on the outer box are build dates, my safe was actually built on my birthday!  

Anyway...

Thank you AR15.com for this thread, and thank you TSG for sharing your knowledge on the subject.

Mine came with one bottle, and the other items you listed,  but the included paint is a shade off from the safes color.

.... not dwelling on that point though - just wanted to say thanks for the detailed info.   I feel my dealer is taking care of me on the scuff.  

Safe is awesome!

Welcome to the site and Happy (belated) Birthday, that safe will serve you well.

Looking thru the new website I was wanting to find a size comparison on all the BF series safes.   I found the cool chart but it was a little small to read.  When I click on it it opens up bigger but puts a dark bar at the bottom making it even harder to read.  You might look into it and see if it is an issue for others.

Reported to the website designer... should get fixed soon. Thanks!

The enlarged chart appears OK in IE 11.   The band at the bottom is gray (the same as the background color on this forum) and the text on that band is black and appears OK.

Any problem might be related to the browser or screen settings, rather than the webpage/site.

I pasted the link to the *.png below, as well as the link to the page on which it is located.







http://www.amsecusa.com/gun-safes/bf-gun-safes/

Hello Sir. First of all I would liketo say I love this thread and your input. It has taught me alot. My question is. I have been looking at new Amsec safes but I am getting ready to build a house and I am not quite sure whether I need to be spending $2500 on a new gun safe. i was on Craigslist and saw a listing for a Amsec BP6526 67FDBG safe from 1995. It has a RSC and UL sticker on it and seems to be in good shape. They are asking $975 but I believe I can talk them down some. Is this a quality safe for the money? I will give a few details on my situation. I am more worried about storing money and documents than guns. I do not have many valuable guns more centimental than anything. Is this a proper safe for that or would it be wiser to buy a new small safe thats burglary and fire rated from you all? I would not mind having a gun safe, though, but I do not want to throw money away on this safe if it will not offer me protection. Of course there always is the option to buy both lol Thank you so much and i appreciate your time!

The information provided does not clearly identify the safe. In 1995 there were three sizes in two lines of products, a light duty line and a heavy duty line. In both cases. The optional fire protection we offered at that time was minimal (1 layer gypsum), as this was early in the fire-resistance development of gunsafes. So, there were two lines, both lines came with optional fire-liners, which means it may or may not have a fire liner. That means there are four "types" in that vintage, and they are all quite different and would have significant differences in value. I am not the one to say if the pricing is right or not, as I am not engaged in the retail market for used safes. Unless that is one of the larger HD safes with a fire liner, that price sound really high to me, but I could be wrong.

Ok thank you very much for clearing that up ! I'll pass on the safe then and check out some of your alls small burglary and fire safes since I'm mostly concerned about cash. Just need to find a dealer close by. Thanks so much and have a great evening !

To TheSafeGuy

Bought a wonderful South African TL 30 X 6 safe on the advice of some people that I thought I could trust their opinion. Quality extremely poor. So bad I could see through the gap on the hinge side to the interior of the safe. Just one of the many negative comments I have on the build quality of this safe.  
I have some specific questions about the AMSEC TL 30 X 6 AMVAULT models. I don't know how to use blogs very well. Is there a way I can contact you directly. I have been in touch with Tim R. of Central and Regional Sales.

You should post some photos.

Yes, I'd like to see them as well. I recently bought a huge TL30 Meilink Gibraltar as well as an AmSec TL30 and have looked at many TL30s.
I *almost* bought a unit from SA...and assumed the UL tag meant it was "just as good".
I'm reconsidering this stance.
Could it really be THAT bad?
I'd like to see the pics.

A few of those South African companies have been in the high security safe business for a very long time.  I wouldn't expect much junk to be coming out of there, especially considering that those manufacturers are building safes for the world wide market with both UL and European ratings.   Most of the questionable safes I have seen are Asian.

As an example, they build stuff like this, and it isn't even the top of the food chain.  Check out the specifications.....and this was from 1979.  Very few US manufacturers have ever built anything like some of the high security safes found throughout the rest of the world.  

The African products have gone downhill quite a lot in the last 20 years, and much of the new product we see coming from there has been pretty bad. Stories like this are not uncommon. As with several companies in the Eastern Block, South America and Asia, the UL quality process that you expect to be filtering this junk is not working. Several offshore manufacturers have been caught red-handed cheating, and most of these companies just stop exporting to the US market when they get caught. They don't get caught by UL process, they get called out by US import distributors that fight for market share. They report finding obvious deficiencies in products to UL, which never sparks any real investigation. UL has no budgetary allowance for policing action, so they don't spend money to buy and dissect safes reported to be deficient for verification. Eventually negative media and trade hype takes it's toll and the products won't sell any more, so they go away.

The enforcement process for offshore listing compliance assurance is very broken. UL generally contracts with third party quality assurance companies that are not owned or employed by the UL organization, and some have demonstrated considerable incompetence and there is always strong suspicion of corruption. When you do business in lawless low-cost labor nations, there is no way to know when you are being played. Domestically, UL has extraordinary follow-up services presence and consistently high standards that prevent even the slightest bit of cheating. Offshore, not so much. Since the end of Apartheid 20 years ago, there has been a steady decay of product quality coming out of South Africa. The classical European management of companies there have all but disappeared, and that was the backbone that drove international respectability.

You can ask your questions here. I am not going to tell you anything more in private than I will on the open forums. This is a learning opportunity for everyone, so feel free to post your questions, and if I can answer them, I will. Keep in mind, we hold certain things sacred, and nobody gets past that firewall. So you know, my sales team has already told me that you might come here seeking more information than we openly share.

The gunsafes we discuss mostly here are simple products, with simple construction. Not a lot to hide in a steel shell. A high security composite safe's construction is highly proprietary. Every participating manufacturer invests dearly in these ratings and comes home with an exclusive and unique design, and it passes these tests on it's own merits. None of these tricks and secrets are known to anyone outside, and we go to great lengths to assure that continues to be true. So, bring your questions, but know there are limits.

Learning this blog stuff the hard way. Just deleted a several paragraph response.

Would someone please give me some help or a website I can go to that will give me info on how to post pictures to this blog without opening my computer to the world. When i clicked on the photo icon, ar15 wanted me to upload from a http site and did not have a mechanism for a direct upload from my computer. Google search indicated to post pics to an online provider like PhotoBucket. Any info would be appreciated.

A little background. Have been doing research on safes for about a year. Hard to find information on bigger safes much less find one to look at. I have had a chance to look at gun safes, Tann safes (impressive), Lord safe, Graffunder, and a Kaso. There appears to be a lot of consolidation/mergers of safe companies and finding someone who is knowledgeable about non-US based companies is almost non-existent. Lesson here is it probably best to stick with a US based company. Statistics on safe attacks are even tougher to find because no company wants you to know how their safe was breached for good reason. Hopefully the company is doing R & D to prevent future attacks and not just following market trends.

Finally pulled the trigger on the South African safe based on the input I received from someone who is supposed to be an expert in this field. Safe was accepted by the delivery company without completely unwrapping it. Safe arrived at my place and unwrapped with some external damage discovered. Some missing paint and scratches but no loss of the integrity of the body that I could tell. Safe set in place and discovered the glass relocker plate was shattered. Delivery person said i could refuse the safe but after a cursory exam looking at the door seam and body along with opening and closing the door I accepted delivery. Lesson learned here is to never accept delivery of a damaged safe although the issue I have with this safe is the quality of the build. The delivery person made good on the glass relocker plate and had it installed within a month. An email to the person who sold me the safe has not been returned. Will continue to pursue that avenue but have to move on.

Since I got burned on this safe I will inspect the next safe I buy in person. I would like to see an AMSEC AMVAULT TL 30 X 6 safe in an unfinished state. This is to assess any quality issues that I might have based on my experience with this safe. I am not asking for proprietary info to be revealed but do want to know the thickness of metal in the body. I can always get an idea of the carbon content and hardness of the steel by using a punch on it. Next up is the fit of the door to the body and inspection of the bolt mechanism. The fit of the door and the bolt mechanism could be seen in any store that stocks an AMSEC AMVAULT. Unfortunately none are close by and it is just as easy to fly out to California which can give me the advantage of looking at an unfinished safe.

The broken glass was in the bolt mechanism grease and causing some crunching/grinding so i pulled the mechanism apart, cleaned it and put it back together. This is when I started to encounter the quality issues. I will start with the major issue and go down my list. I will post pictures with comments when I learn how upload pics.

The primary defect with this safe is the lack of any contact between the door and body on the hinge side. The door gap is about 0.1 inch all the way around. When you look through this gap on the hinge side you can literally see a portion of the interior of the safe. This is difficult to get in a picture but an interior shot will show no contact between the hinge side of the door and the body. Once I discovered this defect I halted all efforts to fix this safe. In addition this defect causes the conical shaped fixed bolts on the hinge side not to engage the body and a 3/16 shim of flat steel won't even solve the problem. It appears that defeating the hinges would make this safe susceptible to a pry attack.

The door has about a 1/8 inch to 1/4 inch of play and no way to adjust this without using epoxy or welding in a shim. I have seen several safes that use a bolt with a lock nut on the middle bolt to get rid of this play. I don't understand why all the bolts aren't shimmed. An additional problem with trying to shim the bolts to the body is that the bolts are about a 1/4 inch out of being plumb. The 2 inch bolts are too big for the mechanism frame. The bolts fit in a slot in the locking mechanism and would slide out with a pry attack. The bolts also don't fully engage the body frame. The bolts on the top and bottom are bolted to the locking mechanism.

The body or the door did not have any heat resistant seals. The vertical lips of the door frame are about a 1/4 inch and a little small for this purpose. I have been told that safes in the TL 30 X 6 range usually do not use seals as they pass the UL fire rating without them. I understand this principle but need seals to control humidity and resultant condensation. Seals would be easily placed on the door of this safe but I would have to do some grinding/sanding and refinish on the inferior aspect of the door due to weld spatter. The Safe Guy can add comments to further clarify the fire rating on a safe without seals.

Other quality issues (most easliy fixed if you have the tools):
Relockers poor in terms of the pin bore/size of the pin (rough and did not slide easy) and just machined some. The springs (rusted) used for the pins did not have closed and ground ends and the cabling to the relockers poor in that the cable ferrule would hit the body of the relocker if it fired creating a potential hang up for the pin.
Hardware not sized properly as evidenced by bent washers
Crack in the formed metal guard around one of the locks.
Dial shaft not sized properly and rubbing back of  the lock case.
Bare cables ride directly on the glass in the holes in the glass plate. On some of the better safes I looked at there was a rubber ring and/or a metal spacer in the glass plate holes to avoid direct contact of the cable with the glass. Don't know if this is important or not.

I apologize for the length of this response. Doing this in an effort to educate people looking into buying a safe and avoiding the problems I have encountered. Pictures to follow if I can get them uploaded.

Still want to see an unfinished AMSEC AMVAULT!

I use photobucket myself.  If you don't want to go through the effort of setting up an account to host photos, you're welcome to e-mail them to me, and I'll get them up for you.




There are plenty of people that know all about these types of safes.  It's just a matter of looking for them in the right places.




When it comes to high security safes, unfortunately, the best will be imported.  The companies building them have been around longer, have more experience, and have the higher ratings that US based companies don't have.




There's your first red flag.  Real professionals in this field don't use delivery companies, they deliver them themselves.




It is not uncommon, in fact it's quite normal, to have a door gap.  It is not normal to have a gap so large you can see into the safe from the exterior.

Are they not extending into the body of the safe, or are they not coming directly into contact with the body?  Not coming into contact is normal, not extending into the bolt pockets (or behind the frame) is not.




1/4" seems a bit much.  1/8" seems normal.  Odd that it doesn't have an adjustment, even if it was just a primitive tab that could be bent.




I don't think you're going to find that on any modern safe.




Without seeing it, I can't say for sure, but you're likely looking at security feature instead of a design flaw.  Sometimes bolts are designed to come loose during an attack.




Normal.

Most safes with UL burglary ratings do not carry UL fire ratings.  There are only a few that have.  Most are factory tested, as the UL requirements make it very difficult to have both types of ratings.  Just because a high security safe does not have a UL fire rating, doesn't mean it wouldn't pass the actual furnace test.  There are rules governing the fire testing that would impact the security design on the burglary rating side of things.




Unfortunately, this type of stuff is all normal as well.  Going above and beyond to do things requires labor.  Labor increases expenses.  Expenses increase price of goods, and everybody is trying to get into a specific price point.  All of this quality is attainable, but it will tend to cost more.

I think Frank has adequately addressed the comments you made, he knows the market pretty well. We could debate a few of his comments, but it's all trivial because we have different perspectives.

I read your post carefully, and I don't think I see a single "question" that warrants any answers, other than your request to see the factory and inspect a safe in production. That's not going to happen unfortunately. We do not sell safes to the public in any market segment. We sell exclusively thru distribution. The only guests invited to the plant for tours are direct customers that are industry professionals. There is nothing we can do to change that. If we did, there would be a line up the street every day for people wanting to see the plant. This is a manufacturing facility, with a lot of very busy people with little free time and plenty of safety concerns. We probably do fewer than one factory tour per month, so it is a rare thing. Sorry about that, but this is one of those rare markets where we must keep visibility low to assure security to our customers. If we opened our doors, the internet would be flush with photos and articles revealing any and every little secret we have.  So, at the risk of turning away a customer, the plant tour is not going to happen. You are asking to step over a line that nobody in the public gets to cross.

Now, if you have some specific questions that are not what I would consider proprietary information, I would be happy to answer. I will not detail the construction of the body, or any other part with any precision. If you want to know how thick the steel is, that is neither a coherent question, nor will I answer. Steel thickness in this class of safe is not a simple equation of thicker is better. In fact, many parts of a complex safe design are intentionally thin for undisclosed reasoning. The why is as much a secret and the what, so we just keep it all internal. I hope that all makes sense.

How do I get you email. I tried photobucket but it doesn't work with IE 8

try imgur. It's a no-nonsense site.

a1abdj, thanks for the responses and I will email pics with comments to be posted.

Safe Guy, thanks for the responses. The pictures will just reinforce my comments.

Now for some questions and these questions refer to the AMSEC AMVAULT model line.

1. Any coatings you can put on a safe that will smoke like crazy and smell very bad to discourage a torch attack?
2. If I request holes in the bottom of the safe along with a power cord hole in a side wall will the holes just be drilled or reinforced with welded in bungs?
3. How is the finished interior attached to the walls? I have seen the welded on adjustable shelf support rails. Can something more substantial be welded to the interior wall like threaded bungs?
4. I have a 2013 AMSEC Product Catalog. The only options I see listed for the AMVAULTS  includes a premium package and something about optional 3 way boltwork. Can you give a brief description and the advantages/disadvantages of this 3 way boltwork versus the standard boltwork. What options are available for the AMVAULT model line.
5. Does AMSEC do separate R & D to defeat their products or does it just try to meet UL standards. I am referring to destructive attacks with thermal like torch, pyrite, and liquid nitrogen. Cutting with carbide and diamond in drill, saw and cable forms. Non-destructive like the presentation at DEFCON 19 on DIY Non-destructive entry by Schuyler Towne.
6. What is the width of the vertical and horizontal rails of the door frame in case i decide to apply some seals to try to control the interior environment with dessicants?

Tags on the safe

The 1st reply was a test of the pics. I did my best with the photos. I will explain photos with comments. Sorry about the size of pics but using imgur and haven't figured out how to get smaller
The Defect
Door gap is about 0.1 inch
Light is on inside the safe and reflects around one of the fixed bolts
Next shot is inside the safe with fixed bolt, 3/16 inch shim on posterior aspect of the body door frame. The gap show inside where the door doesn't even come close with making contact to the body. The door is closed and I am taking this pic inside the safe.

1st pic is relockers and one I machined on left. Overkill I don't know. Sure want the thing to fire when needed.
Next pic is relocker springs. Bottom one came with the unit and is not finished properly- cut end and the other end was not ground flat. Top spring is ground flat at both ends
3rd pic is original cable and ferrule could potentially hang on edge of relocker when it fired
Pic 4 done my way

Door play pics. Not unusual per alabdj. Measure 1/8 to 1/4 inch
Door closed
Door pulled open
Shim solution on middle bolt only. With this shim in place the door still had free play
2" bolt oversized to frame or misplaced in frame
Bottom bolt out of plumb
Bolt in carrier, not fixed in place

You're on the wrong continent if you want a safe to resist those attacks. You'll need a TRTL30X6 all the way up to a TXTL60  safe. If you really want to go nuts, you'll need to hop the pond and get a Eurograde 6 or higher safe (preferably tested by VdS) with core drilling & explosive certification.  



That's kiddie stuff related to door locks and padlocks and nothing compared to the testing that high security safes and locks undergo by testing agencies around the world. In addition, there are many methods and attacks that safe technicians have perfected which someone like him would know nothing about.

Many things are the way they are for very good reasons that might not be apparent to you. Just reading your few posts, it seems to me like you may not be satisfied with any safe unless it was constructed like a $250,000 bank vault.

Also something to keep in mind, no company is going to spend weeks discussing their safes with you and giving you info unless you're buying 50. It's just not cost effective to spend that much time for 1 customer buying 1 safe. So look for companies that build custom safes and you can spec exactly what you want and be prepared to pay $$$$$$$$. Chances are you'll have to go with a plate safe so you can see exactly what you're getting. Downside to that is it won't come close to the protection and attack resistance of a good composite safe. Good luck!

Other items
Welds just top and bottom of frame and not completed on vertical aspects of mechanism frame
Spatter on inferior aspect of door
Amount of surface area on vertical frame rail for a seal to contact

I just pointed out issues with this safe. If you think the gap on the hinge side is normal in the manufacture of a safe then please state so. It is also important for individuals in the Midwest to be able to control humidity in a safe to avoid condensation and rust.

I stated from the beginning that this safe is poorly built in my opinion and provided pics. If you disagree please state so. I don't want to pay a stupid tax again. When I pay for something I expect quality. The person who recommended this safe knew my price point was double what I paid for this safe.

Regarding AMSEC, my only request was to see an unfinished safe. I didn't need a tour of the plant, proprietary info ( I asked no further questions on the wall thickness) or to occupy more than 30 minutes of someone's time at AMSEC. The additional questions concern corporate philosophy. Instead of a reasonable response to assure me that you build quality safes,  review or investigate data on safe breaches and failures (to avoid a costly safe tech call) and try to keep up in the world of technology (hopefully AMSEC does this) I get a response that puts you on the defensive. Take a deep breath, I am not the enemy.

I hope I was able to impart some info to readers of this blog who are considering purchasing a safe and to avoid the quality issues in my opinion that i encountered.
Disclaimer: I am not an engineer and have no financial interest in any safe company but I may be a perfectionist

I'm familiar with the manufacturer of the safe you posted.  There are several of them here in the St. Louis area, many of which were sold direct, and a handful that I have sold.  I'm not seeing anything in your photos that is standing out as a serious problem.  They aren't fancy, but they do meet the UL standards, and are accepted by the insurers.  

When a safe is shipped to a customer it usually originates from the manufacturer or a distributor, skipping the dealer in the process.  When I sell a safe, I have the opportunity to go over it prior to delivery, and I can take care of all of the small issues before the customer ever sees them.  It doesn't matter who makes it, sometimes things get past the quality control guys.  Once a shipper has their hands on it all bets are off when it comes to its condition upon arrival.

TSG, BP9354?  Did I read that correctly,

Not found here

Yes, I cross checked it too. That listing for TL30x6 has been disqualified, probably during the 2008 retest cycle. That UL File is not active, and Mutual Safe is no longer holding any legitimate TL30x6 burglary rating. I also see the fire label is not a real rating. It is a play on wording that implies they tested with UL, but that is a listing that never dies, and they have no such rating on file. Beware of the darkness...

I don't care for the way that UL offers their directory, as it only shows those with current certifications.  It makes it difficult to track down those using fake tags.  I don't remember the time frames involved, but the last time I had a conversation with somebody at UL, they explained that a manufacturer didn't have to have a continuous listing.  They could get a listing, build enough safes to sell for the next several years, and then get another listing when they needed to build more.  This manufacturer does have a current TL-30 listing with UL  ( Mutual TL-30 Listing )   but not a current TL-30x6.

Hamilton is another example that was missing from that list, but they too offer a TL30x6.  They have active listing for their TL-15, TL-30, TRTL-30, and TRTL30x6, but no listing shown for the TL30X6.

I'm sure TSG knows a lot more about this than I do, since he's an active participant in that world.

I also forgot to mention something important.  It appears that some of those photos were taken from inside the safe with the door closed.  I don't know if you were in there with a camera, or just had it sitting on a shelf on a timer.  Getting inside of a safe is a serious safety issue, so as a public service announcement:  Stay out of safes!  

TSG/Frank, out of curiosity, who makes the Soltam Excalibur?

TRTL60X6 Used at $13.5K

Nobody anymore.  They were an Israeli company that got caught playing fast and loose with their UL tags.  They have been out of business for several years, and I don't think they were around very long.  I have never seen one in real life, although they seem to be somewhat common in the New York area.

Thanks Frank, it was just for my own edumacation. That seems to be quite a rating for a safe listed as 3200 lbs.

Yep, there's nothing in those photos showing anything more than an average to slightly below average TL30x6 safe. With an Amsec TL-30 or TL30x6 safe, you will definitely be getting an above average safe. Amsec TL-30 safes have been attacked many many times over the years (due to the fact that they practically own the commercial TL-15/30 market in the US) and in almost every photo I've seen, the safe has survived the attack. It takes tools and time far above the rating to break into one.

Thanks for the information on the tags. I appreciate the input and it has been an education.

Anyone interested in this safe? It is for sale!

Another thought came to mind. The individual who fitted the door wrote the date 6/8/13 and another individual wrote controlled by15-08-13 which I take is an 8/15/13 date. For those of you in the market looking to purchase a safe- buyer beware. Based on the dates I suspect some of these safes are still out there.

To make you feel a bit better, here's an example of an excessive door gap.  That's my finger going in one side and coming out the other.