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Posted: 4/6/2022 1:18:31 PM EDT
[#1]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Your hypothetical scenario is an apples to rutabagas comparison. To be blunt, I'm pretty sure everyone here knows that a cop would be treated far differently from a non-LEO in this situation. Anyone who claims otherwise is blatantly lying. Do you disagree? I totally agree, but judging from the lack of response here, apparently even they (off duty or ex cops) won't give up details of the event (like description of vehicle and perps, what kind of gun they had, etc) till a few days later through an attorney. That is an amazing state of affairs with respect to putting dirtbags behind bars and perhaps to drawing suspicion to yourself should the guy die later. On the last point, I think the naysayers to the STFU strategy are primarily concerned with getting the initial narrative sympathetic to themselves. Sure, some will talk themselves into indictment or conviction, but how many that we never hear about actually do develop some sympathy from the officers on the scene (perhaps a very, very large number). One of the main reasons for calling quickly is to be the first to call so as to be considered the victim in the situation. Victims cooperate, and guilty folks don't can be a mindset for investigators. I suspect that while taking the 5th can't be used against you in court, it can focus the investigation on you in a big way in the initial days of the investigation. I think the fear is that once momentum develops against you, the criminal justice system will keep building a case against you (vs establishing early why you are the victim). My question still stands, though, would people be so cautious in my example as to leave out the fact that they had a gun and shot it (on either 911 call or to cops). If going silent, why not go silent all the way? Admitting to shooting is probably the most damning piece of info you're gonna give up, so why not keep silent on that? In essence, you would only be telling them there was an attempted armed robbery with no other info given (which honestly would be hard to do without appearing exceptionally paranoid to the cops.) |
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Posted: 4/6/2022 1:20:06 PM EDT
[#2]
Quote HistoryQuoted: And that's been repeated multiple times in this thread. Which makes the bolded portion kind of suspect and/or risky. "If you have sufficient self-control to give a brief statement and then shut up, do so. We don't think any of our own officers have that self-control so we tell them to shut up. But you might be different." What's risky is not training sufficiently to physically be able keep your wits and to know when to talk and when to shut up. Sounds like quite a few in this thread are in the latter group and don't believe anyone is capable of being in the former group. But that's 100% GD. |
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Posted: 4/6/2022 1:20:27 PM EDT
[#3]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Assuming? Can you read? "If you have sufficient self control to give a very brief synopsis to responding officers, do so, then shut up and invoke right to counsel. If you tend to babble, which is most folks, say nothing." Regardless if the subset is large or small, "if YOU can do it" do it. If not, SHUT THE FUCK UP and take the ride. Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: Are you assuming that everyone is a professional gun fighter and will be aware of the fact that they are, or are not, in control of their adrenaline and emotions? 100% of the people that talked too much, didn't know that they talked too much. Hell, cops don't even talk to cops after a shooting. Watch any police shooting video; the next cop on the scene tells the shooter to STFU, get in the patrol car, and not say anything until they have their rep with them. Assuming? Can you read? "If you have sufficient self control to give a very brief synopsis to responding officers, do so, then shut up and invoke right to counsel. If you tend to babble, which is most folks, say nothing." Regardless if the subset is large or small, "if YOU can do it" do it. If not, SHUT THE FUCK UP and take the ride. But you haven't explained how YOU will know if YOU are okay to talk or not. You conveniently skip over that part, and completely ignore it in your response to my post. If YOU have never been in that situation, how do YOU know if YOU should talk or if YOU should keep YOUR mouth shut?? Just because YOU have a couple buddies do it, doesn't mean YOU can do it. |
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Posted: 4/6/2022 1:22:04 PM EDT
[#4]
Quote HistoryQuoted: I totally agree, but judging from the lack of response here, apparently even they (off duty or ex cops) won't give up details of the event (like description of vehicle and perps, what kind of gun they had, etc) till a few days later through an attorney. That is an amazing state of affairs with respect to putting dirtbags behind bars and perhaps to drawing suspicion to yourself should the guy die later. On the last point, I think the naysayers to the STFU strategy are primarily concerned with getting the initial narrative sympathetic to themselves. Sure, some will talk themselves into indictment or conviction, but how many that we never hear about actually do develop some sympathy from the officers on the scene (perhaps a very, very large number). One of the main reasons for calling quickly is to be the first to call so as to be considered the victim in the situation. Victims cooperate, and guilty folks don't can be a mindset for investigators. I suspect that while taking the 5th can't be used against you in court, it can focus the investigation on you in a big way in the initial days of the investigation. I think the fear is that once momentum develops against you, the criminal justice system will keep building a case against you (vs establishing early why you are the victim). My question still stands, though, would people be so cautious in my example as to leave out the fact that they had a gun and shot it (on either 911 call or to cops). If going silent, why not go silent all the way? Admitting to shooting is probably the most damning piece of info you're gonna give up, so why not keep silent on that? In essence, you would only be telling them there was an attempted armed robbery with no other info given (which honestly would be hard to do without appearing exceptionally paranoid to the cops.) Prepare yourself. You're going to be required to verify your position with documentable case law, not common sense.  |
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Posted: 4/6/2022 1:23:08 PM EDT
[#5]
Quote HistoryQuoted: But you haven't explained how YOU will know if YOU are okay to talk or not. You conveniently skip over that part, and completely ignore it in your response to my post. If YOU have never been in that situation, how do YOU know if YOU should talk or if YOU should keep YOUR mouth shut?? Just because YOU have a couple buddies do it, doesn't mean YOU can do it. Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: Quoted: Are you assuming that everyone is a professional gun fighter and will be aware of the fact that they are, or are not, in control of their adrenaline and emotions? 100% of the people that talked too much, didn't know that they talked too much. Hell, cops don't even talk to cops after a shooting. Watch any police shooting video; the next cop on the scene tells the shooter to STFU, get in the patrol car, and not say anything until they have their rep with them. Assuming? Can you read? "If you have sufficient self control to give a very brief synopsis to responding officers, do so, then shut up and invoke right to counsel. If you tend to babble, which is most folks, say nothing." Regardless if the subset is large or small, "if YOU can do it" do it. If not, SHUT THE FUCK UP and take the ride. But you haven't explained how YOU will know if YOU are okay to talk or not. You conveniently skip over that part, and completely ignore it in your response to my post. If YOU have never been in that situation, how do YOU know if YOU should talk or if YOU should keep YOUR mouth shut?? Just because YOU have a couple buddies do it, doesn't mean YOU can do it. Exactly. Almost all of us will talk too much once we start. Only some of us are smart enough to recognize this. |
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Posted: 4/6/2022 1:24:55 PM EDT
[#6]
Quote HistoryQuoted: But you haven't explained how YOU will know if YOU are okay to talk or not. You conveniently skip over that part, and completely ignore it in your response to my post. If YOU have never been in that situation, how do YOU know if YOU should talk or if YOU should keep YOUR mouth shut?? Just because YOU have a couple buddies do it, doesn't mean YOU can do it. I might not. I might not even be able to get my gun unholstered and my front sight on target. But I'm dedicated to thinking, learning, and training. Not saying I'm one of them, but I've known people who've trained to the point of when under extreme stress they get calmer, quieter, and more focused. And deadlier. Great example is that recent cop cam at the storage building facility. That cop was a warrior, took control, gave commands, and vented that perp big time. Deputy Bergeron, 11/20, Volusia Sheriff's Office. Some people can do it. starts about 3:50 Bergeron Taking Control |
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Posted: 4/6/2022 1:32:00 PM EDT
[#7]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Exactly. Almost all of us will talk too much once we start. Only some of us are smart enough to recognize this. Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: Are you assuming that everyone is a professional gun fighter and will be aware of the fact that they are, or are not, in control of their adrenaline and emotions? 100% of the people that talked too much, didn't know that they talked too much. Hell, cops don't even talk to cops after a shooting. Watch any police shooting video; the next cop on the scene tells the shooter to STFU, get in the patrol car, and not say anything until they have their rep with them. Assuming? Can you read? "If you have sufficient self control to give a very brief synopsis to responding officers, do so, then shut up and invoke right to counsel. If you tend to babble, which is most folks, say nothing." Regardless if the subset is large or small, "if YOU can do it" do it. If not, SHUT THE FUCK UP and take the ride. But you haven't explained how YOU will know if YOU are okay to talk or not. You conveniently skip over that part, and completely ignore it in your response to my post. If YOU have never been in that situation, how do YOU know if YOU should talk or if YOU should keep YOUR mouth shut?? Just because YOU have a couple buddies do it, doesn't mean YOU can do it. Exactly. Almost all of us will talk too much once we start. Only some of us are smart enough to recognize this. My mouth will be used to respectfully invoke the 5th. If that earns me a night or two behind bars, so be it. The drunk tank ain't so bad.
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Posted: 4/6/2022 1:35:15 PM EDT
[#8]
Stupid. Here's the cop's mind: "So you knew the perp was unarmed and you shot him anyway?"
Your advice is stupid and I hope no one takes it. |
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Posted: 4/6/2022 1:37:03 PM EDT
[#9]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Stupid. Here's the cop's mind: "So you knew the perp was unarmed and you shot him anyway?" Your advice is stupid and I hope no one takes it. Tell it to this idiot who I learned it from: Attorney Andrew F. Branca is in his third decade of practicing law, specializing in self-defense law of the United States, where he is an internationally recognized expert. Andrew has contributed in this context by the Wall Street Journal, National Review, the Chicago Tribune, the Washington Post, and many others, including nationally syndicated broadcast media. Andrew is also a host on the Outdoor Channel’s TV show The Best Defense and contributor to the National Review Online. Andrew is a former Guest Instructor and subject matter expert (SME) on self-defense law at the Federal Bureau of Investigation’s National Academy at Quantico and the Sig Sauer Academy, an NRA Life-Benefactor member, an NRA Certified Instructor, an IDPA Charter/Life member (IDPA #13), and a Master-class competitor in multiple IDPA divisions. Andrew teaches lawyers how to argue self-defense cases as a certified instructor with the Continuing Legal Education (CLE) system in numerous states around the country. In addition to being a lawyer, Andrew is also a competitive handgun shooter, an IDPA Charter/Life member (IDPA #13), and a Master-class competitor in multiple IDPA divisions. Recently, Andrew won the UC Berkeley Law School Debate on “Stand-Your-Ground,” and spoke at the NRA Annual Meeting on self-defense law. He wouldn't last a minute amidst the brilliant tactical typers here. |
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Posted: 4/6/2022 1:40:20 PM EDT
[#10]
Quote HistoryI'll stick with what the lawyer here says and not the former cop turned gun writer. |
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Posted: 4/6/2022 1:41:50 PM EDT
[#11]
Quote HistoryQuoted: My mouth will be used to respectfully invoke the 5th. If that earns me a night or two behind bars, so be it. The drunk tank ain't so bad. It won’t be the drunk tank that you’ll be in. |
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Posted: 4/6/2022 1:51:25 PM EDT
[#12]
Quote HistoryQuoted: I disagree with none of it. He confirms my original point there are circumstances when it's ok to talk to the cops. "If you have sufficient self control to give a very brief synopsis to responding officers, do so, then shut up and invoke right to counsel. If you tend to babble, which is most folks, say nothing." It addresses those who have self control and can give a brief synopsis and those who can't. And I've given two specific example of friends that had self control and were smart enough to do just that. Neither one of them took a ride, and neither was charged. In fact, neither one had to retain an attorney. If you don't know when to talk and what to say, SHUT THE FUCK UP, and take the ride. What are you missing there? Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: So which part of that advice do you disagree with? I disagree with none of it. He confirms my original point there are circumstances when it's ok to talk to the cops. "If you have sufficient self control to give a very brief synopsis to responding officers, do so, then shut up and invoke right to counsel. If you tend to babble, which is most folks, say nothing." It addresses those who have self control and can give a brief synopsis and those who can't. And I've given two specific example of friends that had self control and were smart enough to do just that. Neither one of them took a ride, and neither was charged. In fact, neither one had to retain an attorney. If you don't know when to talk and what to say, SHUT THE FUCK UP, and take the ride. What are you missing there? You're the one trying to get people to spill the beans. You tell me. |
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Posted: 4/6/2022 1:56:36 PM EDT
[#13]
Quote HistoryQuoted: You're the one trying to get people to spill the beans. You tell me. Tell you what other than my OP? I'm trying to tell people to prepare themselves as best they can to keep from getting convicted or going bankrupt in a civil suit. If that means clamming up from the get-go, by all means do it. If it means "giving a brief synopsis" then SHUTTING THE FUCK UP, then do that. Fairly simple. |
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Posted: 4/6/2022 1:57:07 PM EDT
[#14]
Quote HistoryQuoted: It won’t be the drunk tank that you’ll be in. Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: My mouth will be used to respectfully invoke the 5th. If that earns me a night or two behind bars, so be it. The drunk tank ain't so bad. It won’t be the drunk tank that you’ll be in. wherever they put me is fine. |
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Posted: 4/6/2022 1:58:27 PM EDT
[#15]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Tell you what other than my OP? I'm trying to tell people to prepare themselves as best they can to keep from getting convicted or going bankrupt in a civil suit. If that means clamming up from the get-go, by all means do it. If it means "giving a brief synopsis" then SHUTTING THE FUCK UP, then do that. Fairly simple. Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: You're the one trying to get people to spill the beans. You tell me. Tell you what other than my OP? I'm trying to tell people to prepare themselves as best they can to keep from getting convicted or going bankrupt in a civil suit. If that means clamming up from the get-go, by all means do it. If it means "giving a brief synopsis" then SHUTTING THE FUCK UP, then do that. Fairly simple. Is that what Ayoob and Branca texted you back? |
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Posted: 4/6/2022 2:01:27 PM EDT
[#16]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Is that what Ayoob and Branca texted you back? That's not what I asked them (and not by text). The above is what they said in the OP. "train and practice to do whatever protects your rights and keeps you from being charged or convicted" |
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Posted: 4/6/2022 2:08:22 PM EDT
[#17]
Quote HistoryQuoted: That's not what I asked them (and not by text). The above is what they said in the OP. "train and practice to do whatever protects your rights and keeps you from being charged or convicted" Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: Is that what Ayoob and Branca texted you back? That's not what I asked them (and not by text). The above is what they said in the OP. "train and practice to do whatever protects your rights and keeps you from being charged or convicted" "Shut the fuck up" has a 100% success rate. And it has the side benefit of being the easiest to exercise. |
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Posted: 4/6/2022 2:08:35 PM EDT
[#18]
Quote History |
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Posted: 4/6/2022 2:08:54 PM EDT
[#19]
Quote HistoryQuoted: There it is from the horse's mouth: "If you have sufficient self control to give a very brief synopsis to responding officers, do so, then shut up and invoke right to counsel. If you tend to babble, which is most folks, say nothing. That is the precise point made in my first post and confirmed by both Branca and Ayoob. "If you have sufficient self control to give a very brief synopsis to responding officers, do so, then shut up and invoke right to counsel. If you tend to babble, which is most folks, say nothing. For those that aren't smart enough to know what to day or don't have the self control to keep from babbling, indeed, SHUT THE FUCK UP, and take the ride. You are beating a dead horse. MOST PEOPLE DON'T HAVE THE SELF CONTROL. Hence the overwhelming advice from WELL THOUGHT OUT PEOPLE is STFU. Get legal counsel. The advice to STFU is geared toward an overwhelming majority of people who will simply not be able to THINK STRAIGHT after this stressful event. What are you not understanding about this? You keep acting like you have some revelation that will save the world. In reality its just bad advice for MOST. You refuse to acknowledge it. TALK, nobody cares if you talk. Whatever works for you. |
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Posted: 4/6/2022 2:10:03 PM EDT
[#20]
Quote HistoryQuoted: What's risky is not training sufficiently to physically be able keep your wits and to know when to talk and when to shut up. Sounds like quite a few in this thread are in the latter group and don't believe anyone is capable of being in the former group. But that's 100% GD.   |
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Posted: 4/6/2022 2:12:00 PM EDT
[#21]
Another point I wonder about is, do cops universally take the 5th right away partly because they know their brothers in the justice system will provide the narrative for them from the very first minute? Other cops will even bring the cop-shooter away from recording devices almost automatically, so there is no real expectation that the cop should go on record early, quite the contrary. On the other hand, Joe Schmoe from Buffalo really doesn't know whether he's gonna be counted as a victim or perp in the early hours of the investigation and is expected to cooperate to some degree. I do think cops, as cops, are perfectly and absolutely correct to shut up, as there is almost no downside to that strategy for them in particular. If that logic stands, is their advice perfectly transferrable to everyone else? Surely to a large degree, but maybe not as 100%.
Comments? |
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Posted: 4/6/2022 2:12:23 PM EDT
[#22]
Speaking of self control. This is a thread on a gun forum.
YOU HAVE NONE it appears. You keep saying the same thing over and over, without being able to refute the rebuttals. You just train, every night. Well you are showing a remarkable lack of self control in this thread because you want people to applaud your new better way to live. DUDE you can give it a rest now. You made your point. Most people don't agree. You are not winning more friends nor are you influencing people. Just beating that dead horse that is now festered and rotten. |
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Posted: 4/6/2022 2:14:36 PM EDT
[#23]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Again, back to biology, stress, and adrenaline dump. You are beating a dead horse. MOST PEOPLE DON'T HAVE THE SELF CONTROL. Hence the overwhelming advice from WELL THOUGHT OUT PEOPLE is STFU. Get legal counsel. The advice to STFU is geared toward an overwhelming majority of people who will simply not be able to THINK STRAIGHT after this stressful event. What are you not understanding about this? You keep acting like you have some revelation that will save the world. In reality its just bad advice for MOST. You refuse to acknowledge it. TALK, nobody cares if you talk. Whatever works for you. Training and self improvement are "revelations"? If no one wants to make an effort to improve their self control and ability to think straight under stress that, to me, would be an unwise decision. There are instances where regaining calm and clear-headedness are advantageous to both one's freedom and bank account. |
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Posted: 4/6/2022 2:18:20 PM EDT
[#24]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Speaking of self control. This is a thread on a gun forum. YOU HAVE NONE it appears. You keep saying the same thing over and over, without being able to refute the rebuttals. You just train, every night. Well you are showing a remarkable lack of self control in this thread because you want people to applaud your new better way to live. DUDE you can give it a rest now. You made your point. Most people don't agree. You are not winning more friends nor are you influencing people. Just beating that dead horse that is now festered and rotten. I'm just responding to what you're posting, but this appears to be getting personal with you. I don't give a flip whether I get applause or spit. Thinking, learning, and training about self defense situations and accepting new information is the smart thing to do. Hunkering down and defending one's position at the expense of their interests is stupid. |
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Posted: 4/6/2022 2:22:33 PM EDT
[#25]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Training and self improvement are "revelations"? If no one wants to make an effort to improve their self control and ability to think straight under stress that, to me, would be an unwise decision. There are instances where regaining calm and clear-headedness are advantageous to both one's freedom and bank account. I do agree it's worth discussion. I also disagree with the overused saying that "no one ever talked themselves out of being arrested". Sure, once the decision to arrest has been made, there's little chance to alter the course of events, but millions of folks have convinced police that they are not worthy of arrest prior to that point. Happens everyday in police interactions. That said, shut up from the beginning if it looks reasonably possible you will be arrested. |
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Posted: 4/6/2022 2:22:51 PM EDT
[#26]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Speaking of self control. This is a thread on a gun forum. YOU HAVE NONE it appears. You keep saying the same thing over and over, without being able to refute the rebuttals. You just train, every night. Well you are showing a remarkable lack of self control in this thread because you want people to applaud your new better way to live. DUDE you can give it a rest now. You made your point. Most people don't agree. You are not winning more friends nor are you influencing people. Just beating that dead horse that is now festered and rotten. Very well said. |
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Posted: 4/6/2022 2:29:34 PM EDT
[#27]
Quote HistoryQuoted: I'm just responding to what you're posting, but this appears to be getting personal with you. I don't give a flip whether I get applause or spit. Thinking, learning, and training about self defense situations and accepting new information is the smart thing to do. Hunkering down and defending one's position at the expense of their interests is stupid. Your premise is what MOST people here believe, is absurd. Your premise is, if we don't come to agree with you we must somehow be flawed and not have self control. Your premise is, we should train and better ourselves and try to BECOME LIKE YOU. When in reality I can't think of anybody in this thread who has said YOU shouldn't do what YOU want to do. They have all given various GOOD reasons why they will not. But that is not good enough for you and you keep poking back with you opening thoughts. We must be absurd or inferior. You have poked the collective bear looking to goad people. Nobody here gives a crap what you do to handle your business. But many good points have been shared as to why most of us will not follow that advice. You haven't said, where I can find, "THAT IS COOL, GLAD YALL HAVE A PLAN". You continue to tell people or question them as to why they "won't do it the right way". You are basically trolling. Fairly politely. But none the less that is what you are doing. Good reasons, very good reasons have been given to you why most of us will just wait on a lawyer. Many of those VERY GOOD reasons given by me. Beat your dead horse. At least you are somewhat polite about insulting the memberships choices. But you are insulting us none the less. You are only right for you. You have NOTHING to offer anybody else here. |
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Posted: 4/6/2022 2:30:02 PM EDT
[#28]
Quote HistoryQuoted: I'm just responding to what you're posting, but this appears to be getting personal with you. I don't give a flip whether I get applause or spit. Thinking, learning, and training about self defense situations and accepting new information is the smart thing to do. Hunkering down and defending one's position at the expense of their interests is stupid.  Attached FileThat's exactly what everyone's been trying to tell you this entire time.  Attached File |
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Posted: 4/6/2022 2:37:26 PM EDT
[#29]
> Starts a thread about talking to the police
> won't shut the fuck up; shows exactly why you don't talk to the police > keeps talking until he has given the enemy more than enough rope  |
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Posted: 4/6/2022 2:44:27 PM EDT
[#30]
In this thread, OP is bragging about how he's training himself nightly in how to talk to the police after shooting someone who threw down their weapon and fled.
That should be fun during discovery... 
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Posted: 4/6/2022 2:50:37 PM EDT
[#31]
Quote HistoryQuoted: In this thread, OP is bragging about how he's training himself nightly in how to talk to the police after shooting someone who threw down their weapon and fled. That should be fun during Discovery... We are not all absurd. We are mostly average. |
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Posted: 4/6/2022 2:57:29 PM EDT
[#32]
Talking to the police puts a hell of a lot more people in prison than shutting the fuck up and demanding a lawyer.
And as for the OP, if he ever is in a self defense shooting, all this "I give nightly performances in front of a mirror to know just what to say to the cops" shit is going to get him raped in court. |
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Posted: 4/6/2022 3:00:16 PM EDT
[#33]
Quote HistoryQuoted: NO..... Your premise is what MOST people here believe, is absurd. Your premise is, if we don't come to agree with you we must somehow be flawed and not have self control. Your premise is, we should train and better ourselves and try to BECOME LIKE YOU. When in reality I can't think of anybody in this thread who has said YOU shouldn't do what YOU want to do. They have all given various GOOD reasons why they will not. But that is not good enough for you and you keep poking back with you opening thoughts. We must be absurd or inferior. You have poked the collective bear looking to goad people. Nobody here gives a crap what you do to handle your business. But many good points have been shared as to why most of us will not follow that advice. You haven't said, where I can find, "THAT IS COOL, GLAD YALL HAVE A PLAN". You continue to tell people or question them as to why they "won't do it the right way". You are basically trolling. Fairly politely. But none the less that is what you are doing. Good reasons, very good reasons have been given to you why most of us will just wait on a lawyer. Many of those VERY GOOD reasons given by me. Beat your dead horse. At least you are somewhat polite about insulting the memberships choices. But you are insulting us none the less. You are only right for you. You have NOTHING to offer anybody else here. When should I ask for permission to respond to posts like yours? "discussion forum" |
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Posted: 4/6/2022 3:04:21 PM EDT
[#34]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Talking to the police puts a hell of a lot more people in prison than shutting the fuck up and demanding a lawyer. And as for the OP, if he ever is in a self defense shooting, all this "I give nightly performances in front of a mirror to know just what to say to the cops" shit is going to get him raped in court. Branca's basic advice is "don't shoot anybody". I think that's important to understand and good advice to follow. Giving thought to and improving one's ability to say cool-headed is an asset, not a liability. In fact, it can go a long way to avoid a violent confrontation or gun fight. When it comes to "discovery", I'm confident about every word I've posted in this thread. There are times and situations when talking can help prove your innocence, and times when clamming up is the best path to take. |
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Posted: 4/6/2022 3:08:29 PM EDT
[#35]
Quote HistoryQuoted: When should I ask for permission to respond to posts like yours? "discussion forum" Keep doing you bro. I am just trying to help you see how you are coming off in this thread. You have been given lots of good rebuttals that should have been met with, yea if that works for you. But instead you go back to your title, without saying it everytime, that we are all absurd because we don't agree with you. Just giving you back what you been dishing out for 14 pages. YOUR WAY WORKS FOR A FEW PEOPLE. Most people will not have the self control to stop talking. Talking feels like you are doing something to help yourself. I see this regularly is post incident analysis in the fire service. I see Chiefs get verbal diarrhea. GOOD MEN, who are awesome at what they do. And if they do something that doesn't work out, they talk too much USUALLY in the analysis. Good luck with your plan. Stay safe. I wish you the best. I will NOT adopt your plan. I AM NOT ABSURD. Your advice is overwhelmingly BAD for the average person. But I am glad it works for you. |
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Posted: 4/6/2022 3:33:44 PM EDT
[#36]
Quote HistoryQuoted: You don't need anybodies permission. You seem like a really nice caring guy. With the exception that maybe you don't see you are badgering everybody to do it your way. You keep telling people to train, as if that will magically overcome the adrenaline dump from high stress. IT WON'T. Not that it isn't helpful. You also seem to assume most of us are not already training. Keep doing you bro. I am just trying to help you see how you are coming off in this thread. You have been given lots of good rebuttals that should have been met with, yea if that works for you. But instead you go back to your title, without saying it everytime, that we are all absurd because we don't agree with you. Just giving you back what you been dishing out for 14 pages. YOUR WAY WORKS FOR A FEW PEOPLE. Most people will not have the self control to stop talking. Talking feels like you are doing something to help yourself. I see this regularly is post incident analysis in the fire service. I see Chiefs get verbal diarrhea. GOOD MEN, who are awesome at what they do. And if they do something that doesn't work out, they talk too much USUALLY in the analysis. Good luck with your plan. Stay safe. I wish you the best. I will NOT adopt your plan. I AM NOT ABSURD. Your advice is overwhelmingly BAD for the average person. But I am glad it works for you. Well, I don't know if it will work for me. Extreme stress is a game changer. But I know I've made some progress over the years in how I respond to conflict and provocation, so that's somewhat reassuring. And, what guys like Branca and Ayoob say on this matter make a lot of sense to me, especially Branca, a real pro. I won't cut and paste them but there are many here (who appear to be professionals) who reinforce the idea that "sometimes offering a brief synopsis" (instead of clamming up) can help your case. If only one person who's read through this thread keeps their freedom after a self defense event, I think this discussion is more than worth it. |
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Posted: 4/6/2022 3:39:10 PM EDT
[#37]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Well, I don't know if it will work for me. Extreme stress is a game changer. But I know I've made some progress over the years in how I respond to conflict and provocation, so that's somewhat reassuring. And, what guys like Branca and Ayoob say on this matter make a lot of sense to me, especially Branca, a real pro. I won't cut and paste them but there are many here (who appear to be professionals) who reinforce the idea that "sometimes offering a brief synopsis" (instead of clamming up) can help your case. If only one person who's read through this thread keeps their freedom after a self defense event, I think this discussion is more than worth it. |
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Posted: 4/6/2022 3:48:46 PM EDT
[#38]
Quote HistoryQuoted: My first brief synopsis will either be the 911 phone call, or through my legal counsel. That is what my legal counsel wants. They do not want me wrecking it for them before they ever get started. They will talk to me on the phone from the scene. Is that your personal attny or through a self defense legal program? If so, which program do you use? |
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Posted: 4/6/2022 3:52:42 PM EDT
[#39]
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Posted: 4/6/2022 4:13:27 PM EDT
[#40]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Not going to change anyone's mind who has staked their position in poured concrete. But.... I have three, close personal friends who have used their handguns to defend themselves. One owned a business and after having his wife zipped tied by an armed robber, and after having been shot once by the robber, he retrieved his handgun and ventilated the guy multiple times. First with a 1911 .45 ACP, then with a .357 revolver. He survived, but, amazingly after taking five torso hits, the robber survived and was sentenced. THE OTHER TWO shot their attackers who then fled the scene (one on foot, the other in a car). Both of my friends TALKED TO THE POLICE but only gave descriptions and the direction both perps fled in. They both TALKED TO THE POLICE and informed them they had scored hits on both perps. One also TOLD THE POLICE where to look for his attacker's shotgun. Then they shut up. With that little bit of extra information from TALKING TO THE POLICE, both perps were located and apprehended within an hour. Neither of my friends had to take a "ride to the station", neither had to hire an attorney, and both got their guns back. ymmv Curious as to what state(s) your friends were in at the time? |
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Posted: 4/6/2022 4:32:24 PM EDT
[#41]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Curious as to what state(s) your friends were in at the time? One young guy shot an armed robber in a Walgreens drugstore parking lot and one frisky old fart of a neighbor shot a guy that was robbing his local credit union. Ironically, both perps got shot in the ass with .380's! Probably just motivated their escapes more than hurt them.  Even more ironic, the jewelry store owner was also shot in the ass but with a .22WMR when the perp struggled to get him zip tied. 3 ass shots, no charges, no rides downtown, no lawyers. Win/Win/Win And you probably guessed where by now  |
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Posted: 4/6/2022 4:43:41 PM EDT
[#42]
Quote HistoryQuoted: doc540, you know that you can simply refer a right honourable gentleman to a post you made some moments ago? |
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Posted: 4/6/2022 4:45:27 PM EDT
[#43]
Quote HistoryQuoted: he wouldn't be able to spam the thread if he did that cut but not pasted |
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Posted: 4/6/2022 4:50:44 PM EDT
[#44]
Quote HistoryQuoted: But you haven't explained how YOU will know if YOU are okay to talk or not. You conveniently skip over that part, and completely ignore it in your response to my post. If YOU have never been in that situation, how do YOU know if YOU should talk or if YOU should keep YOUR mouth shut?? Just because YOU have a couple buddies do it, doesn't mean YOU can do it. It's called the dunning-krueger effect and he won't know whether he's under it until he talks himself into a felony charge. I wish him luck and hope he never has to find out. He's still never answered my question as to why his experts are better than other recognized experts in the field who say to STFU. Guess we won't get an answer on that (or just another fucking copypasta in place of an actual discussion  ) |
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Posted: 4/6/2022 4:57:09 PM EDT
[#45]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Is that your personal attny or through a self defense legal program? If so, which program do you use? |
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Posted: 4/6/2022 5:39:39 PM EDT
[#46]
Quote HistoryQuoted: It's called the dunning-krueger effect and he won't know whether he's under it until he talks himself into a felony charge. I wish him luck and hope he never has to find out. He's still never answered my question as to why his experts are better than other recognized experts in the field who say to STFU. Guess we won't get an answer on that (or just another fucking copypasta in place of an actual discussion )Sorry, I missed your original question, Dino. I think we should take into account the advice of any and all experts even if they don't reinforce what we already think we know. Regarding Branca's and Ayoob's advice, what they say makes sense to me. And I can already poor piss out of a boot without the instructions on the heel. |
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Posted: 4/6/2022 6:41:12 PM EDT
[#47]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Sorry, I missed your original question, Dino. I think we should take into account the advice of any and all experts even if they don't reinforce what we already think we know. Regarding Branca's and Ayoob's advice, what they say makes sense to me. And I can already poor piss out of a boot without the instructions on the heel. Good job! Now maybe you can work on not pissing in your boot in the first place.
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Posted: 4/6/2022 7:00:33 PM EDT
[#48]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Good job! Now maybe you can work on not pissing in your boot in the first place.
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Posted: 4/6/2022 9:54:45 PM EDT
[#49]
Quote HistoryQuoted: My first brief synopsis will either be the 911 phone call, or through my legal counsel. That is what my legal counsel wants. They do not want me wrecking it for them before they ever get started. They will talk to me on the phone from the scene. Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: Well, I don't know if it will work for me. Extreme stress is a game changer. But I know I've made some progress over the years in how I respond to conflict and provocation, so that's somewhat reassuring. And, what guys like Branca and Ayoob say on this matter make a lot of sense to me, especially Branca, a real pro. I won't cut and paste them but there are many here (who appear to be professionals) who reinforce the idea that "sometimes offering a brief synopsis" (instead of clamming up) can help your case. If only one person who's read through this thread keeps their freedom after a self defense event, I think this discussion is more than worth it. Really!!?? As I posted earlier, and got beat up for it, expecting legal counsel to be available 24/7 is not a realistic scenario. What's your backup plan when said legal counsel doesn't answer the phone at 2am? ETA: I'd really like to hear from some LE people that have responded to SD shootings. |
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Posted: 4/6/2022 9:58:30 PM EDT
[#50]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Really!!?? As I posted earlier, and got beat up for it, expecting legal counsel to be available 24/7 is not a realistic scenario. What's your backup plan when said legal counsel doesn't answer the phone at 2am? Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: Quoted: Well, I don't know if it will work for me. Extreme stress is a game changer. But I know I've made some progress over the years in how I respond to conflict and provocation, so that's somewhat reassuring. And, what guys like Branca and Ayoob say on this matter make a lot of sense to me, especially Branca, a real pro. I won't cut and paste them but there are many here (who appear to be professionals) who reinforce the idea that "sometimes offering a brief synopsis" (instead of clamming up) can help your case. If only one person who's read through this thread keeps their freedom after a self defense event, I think this discussion is more than worth it. Really!!?? As I posted earlier, and got beat up for it, expecting legal counsel to be available 24/7 is not a realistic scenario. What's your backup plan when said legal counsel doesn't answer the phone at 2am? Nobody gave you a hard time over your comments about 24/7 legal counsel availability. Your backup plan is the fact that the police have to stop questioning you once you ask for a lawyer. It doesn't matter if the lawyer takes 4 days to get there, just asking for him is all you need to do. |
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