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Posted: 10/30/2023 8:46:06 AM EST
[#1]
Quote HistoryQuoted: You can believe .gov, or you can believe the craziest conspiracy theory, but the repository to car shot was doable by someone with experience. I was with you there until the end. I now believe the inverse of what big.gov says. |
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Posted: 10/30/2023 8:46:44 AM EST
[#2]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Everyone talks about the fact there's no way for a shooter to make those shots. What if Oswald just got lucky? I’ve always thought that President Kennedy walked into one that day. Or the grassy knoll. Or a Secret Service Guy had a negligent discharge. |
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Posted: 10/30/2023 8:47:24 AM EST
[#3]
Quote HistoryQuoted: yep, been to the repository, looked out the same window. it's not a difficult shot at all Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: Quoted: I've been there, and looked out the window to the X they have painted on the street. A half ass rifle shooter could make that shot easy. QFTMFT yep, been to the repository, looked out the same window. it's not a difficult shot at all I agree. Now the fact that Oswald was probably amped on adrenaline, 3 shot in 6 seconds would be easy. Also, the muzzle is pointed at the concreate railroad overpass that is part of the grassy knoll. This is why people heard shots from here. Being there, it all made sense to me. |
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Posted: 10/30/2023 8:47:30 AM EST
[#4]
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Posted: 10/30/2023 8:47:32 AM EST
[#5]
I used to believe Oswald could not have done it alone until I visited Dealy Plaza two times. It just isn’t that far. Very doable. Maybe there was more than one shooter but it is NOT an impossible shot. It isn’t even that hard of a shot.
Pat |
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Posted: 10/30/2023 8:49:34 AM EST
[#6]
The Oswald is a Patsy evidence is Huge.
Do not overthink this. |
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Posted: 10/30/2023 8:52:46 AM EST
[#7]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Three shots in 6 seconds on a moving target With a WWII Carcano? You must be very good. 2 shots in 6 seconds. Does the clock start on shot 1? |
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Posted: 10/30/2023 8:52:55 AM EST
[#8]
Besides, who moved the route in front of Oswald?
Who failed to check the area for snipers? Do not overthink this, Oswald was an intelligence operator setup as the scape goat. |
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Posted: 10/30/2023 8:53:49 AM EST
[#9]
Quote HistoryQuoted: 2 shots in 6 seconds. Does the clock start on shot 1? Yes. It's actually 3 seconds per shot. |
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Posted: 10/30/2023 8:53:59 AM EST
[#10]
Quote HistoryQuoted: https://www.ar15.com/media/mediaFiles/344352/1_EiInJNFY0nvRRVoxRcaH2g_2x_jpg-3009584.JPG That's because the CIA had other assets on the ground to make sure the job was done. FOIA request for documents on Operation King Friday brought some shit to light. I think that has to be the case. Can you imagine taking shots at the leader of the Free World, back when that meant something? It's not just whether the physics would allow it, it's whether the shooter could remain calm. That wasn't some NVA leader in a hut somewhere, that was the President of the United States in a major American city. It's pretty clear to me that the CIA was intimately involved with this assassination. I don't think they would count on Lee to do the job without having several backup plans. There were other assassination plans in Chicago and Florida, just in case this didn't work. Also, serious question. There is a lot of talk about "a puff of smoke" from the grassy knoll. What sort of "smoke" would a hunting rifle make. I don't see much "smoke" at a modern rifle range. There may have been people on the knoll, but I don't think the "smoke" is evidence for that. |
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Posted: 10/30/2023 8:55:51 AM EST
[#11]
The whole "Oswald was framed" Theory depends upon the conspirators being able to ensure that Oswald would be alone and have no alibi at the time of the actual shooting. If he decided to go watch the motorcade with the rest of his co-workers or call in sick or anything else rather than just happen to be find a place to be alone in a warehouse full of people when the motorcade arrived., then the whole frame up would fall apart. How did they ensue he had no alibi?
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Posted: 10/30/2023 8:59:02 AM EST
[#12]
Quote HistoryQuoted: I've been there, and looked out the window to the X they have painted on the street. A half ass rifle shooter could make that shot easy. I saw the same thing and agree. |
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Posted: 10/30/2023 9:02:09 AM EST
[#13]
Quote HistoryQuoted: I've been there, and looked out the window to the X they have painted on the street. A half ass rifle shooter could make that shot easy. I thought the same thing. I could have made that shot holding a mirror and shooting the rifle backwards. People can be idiots sometimes. Perpetuating that type of rumor just exposes a persons ignorance. |
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Posted: 10/30/2023 9:02:37 AM EST
[#14]
one of my fav drills when i was practicing for PRS stuff was shooting plate racks at 500 yards and a dueling tree at 300 yards. five 6" plates, either vertically or horizontally and my clean time would almost always be 11-12 seconds. I've got plenty of videos of me shooting 2 plates at 400 yards in 2 seconds. and i'm not even that good. i bet the top 20% of prs shooters could beat that.
granted, i was using a custom impact action and 6.5x47L not a ww2 gun and caliber. i may be talking out my ass as i don't recall ever shooting a carcano before, but it can't be that hard. i'm pretty sure you could shoot 3 rounds and get 2 hits in 6 seconds. |
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Posted: 10/30/2023 9:03:00 AM EST
[#15]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Three shots in 6 seconds on a moving target With a WWII Carcano? You must be very good. He missed the first shot. |
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Posted: 10/30/2023 9:03:15 AM EST
[#16]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Three shots in 6 seconds on a moving target With a WWII Carcano? You must be very good. The clock starts on the first shot, so that's 3 seconds between shots. (Bang, 3, bang, 3, bang). The target was moving slowly and almost directly away from the shooter which is much easier than a lateral mover. |
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Posted: 10/30/2023 9:03:37 AM EST
[#17]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Check out Mortal Error. The author is one of 2 people that have written a book who actually have an understanding of ballistics and forensics and he made the shots in time at speed with hits on a life sized range. Thank you for bringing that up. |
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Posted: 10/30/2023 9:04:50 AM EST
[#18]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Now that is a fascinating story. Watch JFK: The Smoking gun  JFK: The Smoking Gun Trailer |
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Posted: 10/30/2023 9:05:06 AM EST
[#19]
I thought November was still two days away.
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Posted: 10/30/2023 9:05:29 AM EST
[#20]
It's an easy shot for anyone competent enough to be trusted with a firearm.
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Posted: 10/30/2023 9:06:19 AM EST
[#21]
Quote HistoryQuoted: I’ve always thought that President Kennedy walked into one that day. Or the grassy knoll. Or a Secret Service Guy had a negligent discharge. This is my theory. And he took that to his grave. |
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Posted: 10/30/2023 9:06:43 AM EST
[#22]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Was that written after Hathcock’s death when he could not refute the quote? I suspect some fibbing going on. The shots weren’t all that difficult. That said, was there a guy by the RR track fence or in the storm gutter with a Remington XP100 in .222 rem as well? It would not surprise me at all. Trust no one Mulder.  I just pulled out the 7.35mm Carcano. Bone dry action, no ammo, I dry fired at thee objects approx 80 yards away that needed me to swing in a 70 degree arc. First dry run was a smidge slower than six seconds. I had a hitch in the first unlocking of the bolt as I hadn’t cycled it in years. There is kind of a increase in force needed at 87% of the upstroke. once that was identified there was no issue in bolt cycle. Second run was in five seconds. Granted no ammo was fired. I would likely have hit at least 2 out of three as had Oswald and recoil recover would have taken a slosh of time. They did a tower video on a range with pro shooters and novice shooters on a documentary I once watched with a 6.5 carcano set up. They found it doable. None of the shots are that far. I haven't tried 3 shots in six seconds, but the action/rifle isn't particularly hard to manipulate and hits at 300, with surplus ammo and iron sites, on a IPDA gong is easy to do time and time again. This was with a 7.35 model I own as well with one my friend owns. At ~80 yards (IIRC) or so and with a scope that's zeroed, on a slow moving target that would require a minimum of windage adjustment? Yeah, I think it can be done by a guy of Oswald's ability. The old legends about Carcanos being horribly inaccurate are also largely exaggerated, as well. With the correct size bullets, most shoot quite well. |
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Posted: 10/30/2023 9:06:47 AM EST
[#23]
Entirely plausible that Oswald may have fired the first and maybe the second shot.
First missed Kennedy, second hit low/high depending on the shooter's choice of point of aim. Exactly what would be expected of an amateur with a surplus rifle/ammo panicking under the stress of trying to kill a sitting President in a moving vehicle on a downward slope. I personally do not believe that Oswald had anything to do with firing the third shot, because it was effective. I dabbled with the JFK Reloaded computer simulation program that challenged people to recreate the shots/timeline that was available years ago. Being set-up like a video game, it gives the absolute best possible conditions to recreate the event using historical data, and the program reports to the developers if anyone succeeds in duplicating the event perfectly. I actually found it easier in the simulation to create a first-round broadside to the head by guesstimating the lead required as the car first enters the plaza two turns prior to the actual crime-scene, than come anywhere close to recreating the three documented shots. It's actually quite difficult to make the same mistakes attributed to Oswald. I do recognize that there's always the possibility of a unique, never-able-to-be-replicated series of events in a universe, but at the same time, I actually think anyone with even some very basic skills could have actually been more effective/efficient. |
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Posted: 10/30/2023 9:07:48 AM EST
[#24]
Quote HistoryQuoted: The whole "Oswald was framed" Theory depends upon the conspirators being able to ensure that Oswald would be alone and have no alibi at the time of the actual shooting. If he decided to go watch the motorcade with the rest of his co-workers or call in sick or anything else rather than just happen to be find a place to be alone in a warehouse full of people when the motorcade arrived., then the whole frame up would fall apart. How did they ensue he had no alibi? What was the random chance LHO got a job there just weeks prior to the day?? Had there been a lotto back then, he could have won a lot of money |
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Posted: 10/30/2023 9:08:20 AM EST
[#25]
Yes he could. LHO was drinking a coke when it all happened.
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Posted: 10/30/2023 9:08:38 AM EST
[#26]
4x scope? Rested. It should be pretty easy to get back on target. Knowing the first shot was a miss, it would be really easy to game it and fire with your focus being the bolt cycle and target acquisition for the second shot.
Any theories on how he missed the first shot? That is the biggest mystery to me. Unless he was just shaking uncontrollably, then 2 shots on target in 6 seconds seems unlikely. |
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Posted: 10/30/2023 9:08:50 AM EST
[#27]
I took a college history course many many years ago titled something like "Presidential Assassinations"
Professor had a full copy of the Warren Report. Think something like a set of encyclopedias. (See below) Prof was full on conspiracy theory for a couple of weeks about Kennedy. Entire class convinced that there were multiple shooters, locations, etc. They he flipped 180* and spent a couple of weeks tearing down his own conspiracies. In the end, he let you form your own view and argue it for the final exam. Warren Report:  Attached File |
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Posted: 10/30/2023 9:09:47 AM EST
[#28]
Holee shit brosefs!
If gov. Ventura says he couldn't make the shots - well, he couldn't make those shots. 
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Posted: 10/30/2023 9:09:51 AM EST
[#29]
Quote HistoryQuoted: I took a college history course many many years ago titled something like "Presidential Assassinations" Professor had a full copy of the Warren Report. Think something like a set of encyclopedias. (See below) Prof was full on conspiracy theory for a couple of weeks about Kennedy. Entire class convinced that there were multiple shooters, locations, etc. They he flipped 180* and spent a couple of weeks tearing down his own conspiracies. In the end, he let you form your own view and argue it for the final exam. Warren Report: https://www.ar15.com/media/mediaFiles/119347/Warren_Report_png-3009617.JPG That's a lot of paper to explain away a KGB connected shooter making a hit on a roughly 10 MOA target from 80 yards with a rifle firing from a rest. |
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Posted: 10/30/2023 9:10:58 AM EST
[#30]
Oswald only fired 2 shots. 1 miss and 1 hit. The fatal head shot came from the Secret Service's new AR-15 in the follow up car.
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Posted: 10/30/2023 9:11:36 AM EST
[#31]
Yeah, ok.
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Posted: 10/30/2023 9:11:52 AM EST
[#32]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Oswald only fired 2 shots. 1 miss and 1 hit. The fatal head shot came from the Secret Service's new AR-15 in the follow up car. Is there any serious evidence of this from someone not selling a book about it for profit? |
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Posted: 10/30/2023 9:12:31 AM EST
[#33]
Quote HistoryQuoted: I took a college history course many many years ago titled something like "Presidential Assassinations" Professor had a full copy of the Warren Report. Think something like a set of encyclopedias. (See below) Prof was full on conspiracy theory for a couple of weeks about Kennedy. Entire class convinced that there were multiple shooters, locations, etc. They he flipped 180* and spent a couple of weeks tearing down his own conspiracies. In the end, he let you form your own view and argue it for the final exam. Warren Report: https://www.ar15.com/media/mediaFiles/119347/Warren_Report_png-3009617.JPG 
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Posted: 10/30/2023 9:13:31 AM EST
[#34]
Quote HistoryQuoted: What was the random chance LHO got a job there just weeks prior to the day?? Had there been a lotto back then, he could have won a lot of money A friend got him the job, long before the motorcade route was planned. The alleged framers just hoping he'd have no alibi at the time of the shooting makes no sense in the context of such an elaborate scheme. Oswald was a shooter that day, and the debate should move on to whether he was the only one. |
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Posted: 10/30/2023 9:13:51 AM EST
[#35]
Quote HistoryQuoted: I've been there, and looked out the window to the X they have painted on the street. A half ass rifle shooter could make that shot easy. Not with a scope that wasn’t zeroed and mounted incorrectly. FBI |
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Posted: 10/30/2023 9:14:36 AM EST
[#36]
Quote HistoryQuoted: The Oswald is a Patsy evidence is Huge. Do not overthink this. LOL, no it isn’t. And this particular “bit of evidence,” isn’t. Not a difficult shot and luck is also a thing. |
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Posted: 10/30/2023 9:15:10 AM EST
[#37]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Not with a scope that wasn’t zeroed and mounted incorrectly. FBI The scope was originally removed and dusted for fingerprints and then replaced before the FBI tests. |
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Posted: 10/30/2023 9:16:28 AM EST
[#38]
Quote HistoryQuoted: LOL, no it isn’t. And this particular “bit of evidence,” isn’t. Not a difficult shot and luck is also a thing. If you think hitting a 10 MOA target one out of three times at 80 yards is a feat please don't carry a firearm in public and for the love of God don't go hunting within 5 miles of another person. |
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Posted: 10/30/2023 9:16:45 AM EST
[#39]
Quote HistoryQuoted: I've been there, and looked out the window to the X they have painted on the street. A half ass rifle shooter could make that shot easy. I have been there twice, second time they opened up a photo exhibit on the 7th floor. You could walk up to the same window expect one floor up and look out on the street. My friend and I both said we could have chucked a case of books at someone at that distance. |
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Posted: 10/30/2023 9:17:18 AM EST
[#40]
Which of those two sources was the alleged Hathcock quote from?
I've never seen a serious shooter not think those were pretty basic conditions. It's... tough for me to believe. |
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Posted: 10/30/2023 9:17:57 AM EST
[#41]
LOL at using Jessie Ventura as source material. Having been there i can assure you that it’s not an impossible shot to pull off.
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Posted: 10/30/2023 9:19:46 AM EST
[#42]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Bingo... only a lefty would even attempt firing on a moving target moving to the right. Oswald was right handed. The FBI commented that the rifle was zeroed for a left handed shooter... and zeroed by shimming the scope. We'll never know the truth about the most infamous murder in history. Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: About like Jan. 6th being an insurrection… Bingo... only a lefty would even attempt firing on a moving target moving to the right. Oswald was right handed. The FBI commented that the rifle was zeroed for a left handed shooter... and zeroed by shimming the scope. We'll never know the truth about the most infamous murder in history. I've been a right handed shooter my whole life, trained in plenty of movers. In fact, every competition I've ver shot with movers, they moved left to right. I've absolutely never heard of any alleged advantage for lefties on left to right movers. I've also never heard of a zero based on handedness. |
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Posted: 10/30/2023 9:19:48 AM EST
[#43]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Didn't someone ~20 years ago set up an on range mock up of the location including a moving tram of dummy targets? They could pull it off repeatedly. It's something like 66 yards, right? You can believe .gov, or you can believe the craziest conspiracy theory, but the repository to car shot was doable by someone with experience. It was written up. IIRC no one had a real issue with time or hits. |
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Posted: 10/30/2023 9:20:12 AM EST
[#44]
Quote HistoryQuoted: This is my theory. And he took that to his grave. He managed to do that without anyone else around him including other agents who are intimately knowledgeable of firearms noticing? Casing magically disappeared? All the other agents in the car stood by and didn’t do anything to apprehend the real assassin? You really think he was important enough that an enormous cover up was instituted to save his ass? Doubt. |
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Posted: 10/30/2023 9:20:13 AM EST
[#45]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Is there any serious evidence of this from someone not selling a book about it for profit? Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: Oswald only fired 2 shots. 1 miss and 1 hit. The fatal head shot came from the Secret Service's new AR-15 in the follow up car. Is there any serious evidence of this from someone not selling a book about it for profit? |
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Posted: 10/30/2023 9:20:40 AM EST
[#46]
Quote HistoryQuoted: What if Oswald wasn’t the only shooter? Or if he wasn’t in the room? Or if the chain of evidence on the magic bullet is very questionable and doesn’t match known facts? Or no powder burns on Oswald? Or the only print was a palm print? Or they found shells from a revolver at Tippet’s murder? We could go on and on, but not one shred of proof of Oswald’s guilt. |
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Posted: 10/30/2023 9:21:23 AM EST
[#47]
Quote HistoryQuoted: If you think hitting a 10 MOA target one out of three times at 80 yards is a feat please don't carry a firearm in public and for the love of God don't go hunting within 5 miles of another person. LMAO, you had better re-read my post. 
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Posted: 10/30/2023 9:21:45 AM EST
[#48]
Quote HistoryQuoted: I've been there, and looked out the window to the X they have painted on the street. A half ass rifle shooter could make that shot easy. |
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Posted: 10/30/2023 9:21:47 AM EST
[#49]
Whaaaaaat? You mean the people who brought us top 10 hits like MK Ultra, Operation Northwoods, and others assassinated the President who not just promised to fire them all and even imprison some, BUT was also making moves to actually do it? Noooooo......
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Posted: 10/30/2023 9:22:43 AM EST
[#50]
Quote HistoryQuoted: From what I remember, the feat has been replicated numerous times. Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: I've been there, and looked out the window to the X they have painted on the street. A half ass rifle shooter could make that shot easy. Didn't Mythbusters recreate the shots? |
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