A broken clock is right twice a day.

Exactly.

Kookiness aside, we should all view ourselves as sovereign to a large degree.

Gold fringes notwithstanding, of course.

Hell, why not?

We've got flat-earthers, too!

Don't forget taking one of the king's deer on your land.

Good point.

I took this picture the other day. He probably saves a lot on registration fees.


Attached File

That argument is a stupid one. They aren't the king's deer, they are the people's deer.

They just happen to be on your land right now.

If they were the king's deer then we wouldn't be allowed to take any.

Do you have a SS number ?

That is a solid plan and your daughter is lucky to have someone that is forward thinking enough to set her up for success. One thing that I didn't mention is my situation might be a little different than a lot of folks. Because of that my son will still enjoy the advantages that you are creating for your daughter, even though he didn't get a SS number at birth.

Also, I am a little shocked at the attitude of the majority of the folks in this thread. It's not like I'm denying my child medical treatment. There are a LOT of things that are "easier" if you just "go along". The folks in this thread have proven most of you would get in any line if commanded to by "authority" without a second thought. Sorry, I'm not that guy.

Yep, sure do. I covered that in a previous post. I got it myself when I thought I needed it and I've had it ever since. I've not tallied how much I've paid over the years in to SS but I max it out every year and have for a long time. So not only do I pay SS, I'm likely paying for your grandma.

The "am I being detained" phrase has nothing to do with SCs.

I have almost a 1000 unanswered messages from people currently asking me to look at their legal issues, mostly involving the police. I'd guess probably 1, maybe 2 of those, involve actual SCs. I hear from a lot of people, and I'd say they are actually pretty rare.

Part of the problem is that police training must focus on SCs quite a lot. Sort of like the white supremacy threat that exists all around us, according to the federal government and the SPLC.

I see many examples of people being wrongly accused of being SCs, or labeled as SCs by cops. You can look at the Wilkey case out of KY for instance.

The "am I being detained" phrase serves an important person, as cops are taught to use/abuse so-called "consensual encounters" to effectively detain someone without ever triggering 4A protections. Technically they are free to leave, but the cop isn't going to tell them that. Many people assume otherwise and just answer questions and go along with it. Asking the question forces them to be honest and triggers your 4A protections. It's no different than asking for a lawyer, pleading the 5th, etc. Asserting your constitutional rights. Doesn't really have anything to do with SCs.

No, it’s not voluntary.  It is mandatory except in certain limited employment situations OR an individual seeks a waiver on religious grounds and the employer already has a waiver on religious grounds.

I am a huge advocate of my rights.  I have not had many encounters with the police but I have made it clear twice that I don't consent to any searches.  Based on my son's recent gun purchases I will not be surprised if the ATF does a visit to verify if he still has them.  We will be invoking our 4th and 5th amendment rights if they show up. That doesn't make me a sovereign citizen but I have been asked more than once if I was when I have discussions with people about bringing up your rights.  Nope, as a citizen of the USA I am simply invoking my rights that I have.

If it's mandatory, why don't they just issue you a social security number at birth? Why do you have to apply for it? You seem knowledgeable, it's a serious question.


ETA
Nevermind, you're wrong  at least according to the Social Security Administration.
Link
2nd page 4th paragraph 1st Sentence.

"Getting an SSN for your newborn is voluntary, but may be necessary to obtain important services, such as those listed above, for your child."

Still completely voluntary

Because it's not really mandatory until you start doing adult things.

You can get working papers at 14 in NY, and at that point you will have SS and FICA withheld from your earnings. If they aren't working yet, then they'll need it by 16 to get a driver's license.

Or as the other guy said, you won't be able to set up any kind of savings plans through a bank without one at any point before that.

There is just no way an average adult can get by without one, so it's a silly argument to say "It's their choice"....it's not, they don't have a choice, you just delayed the inevitable for them.

I wanted to point out something interesting. Everywhere you look, everything you sign up for indicates you HAVE to have a social security number. If you look at a Brochure from the LA DMV they will say you have to have a SS number to get a license.

Let's look at what the LA law looks like in relation to that requirement.

(vi) Social security number. Any alien individual residing in Louisiana who does not possess and is ineligible to obtain a social security number shall not be required to furnish a social security number for issuance of a Class "E" driver's license. However, prior to the issuance of a Class "E" driver's license, in addition to other required documentation, the department shall require the alien individual to present a document demonstrating lawful presence in the United States in a status in which the alien individual may be ineligible to obtain a social security number. The list of acceptable documents demonstrating lawful presence shall be determined by the department. The department shall maintain confidentiality of an applicant's social security number. The department shall not deny any person a driver's license or a renewal if that person has not obtained a government-issued social security number based on Section 7 of Pub. L. 93-579 Section (a)(1).

If you read that you come away thinking "Dang, I need to have a SS number to get a drivers license. But  it doesn't say anywhere in that text you are required to have one to actually get a license. It doesn't say it anywhere. If you read it believing you have to have one you'll see it. Actually, it's not there. That requirement doesn't legally exist.

Most if not all of the laws requiring a SS number are written this way. We all believe we have to have one but upon close inspection, that's not actually true. The passport thing was the same way.

If I'm wrong and someone can point out some requirement in that text I missed please point it out.

"in addition to other required documentation, the department shall require the alien individual to present a document demonstrating lawful presence in the United States in a status in which the alien individual may be ineligible to obtain a social security number."

They only accept the other documentation if you are ineligible, not if you choose not to have one.

The key phrases are "shall require" and "a status in which the alien individual may be ineligible"

The point is moot though, because I doubt your soon is an alien residing in LA. We can assume he's a citizen.

Get what I'm saying though? In that entire paragraph , nowhere does it say anyone, citizen or illegal alien is required to have and or present a social security number to get a drivers license, even though the brochure from the DMV says something completely different. Everyone, including the folks at the DMV think it's required. If you look at it closely, you could almost believe it was written in a way to make someone believe you had to have a SS number without actually saying it.

So how positive are you that everything else you just KNOW you need a social security number for is legit?

Only everyone who isn't happy with the nanny state, bloated pig, status quo .gov we currently enjoy.. Our resident statist tories said it, so it must be true.

Dude, did you miss the whole context of the paragraph?

It says pretty clearly that you need an SS number as an alien if you want a driver's license...the exemption being if you are ineligible for one.

Kind of like the ITIN you mentioned earlier in the thread. You can't just go get one, you have to be ineligible for an SSN first.

No, you are wrong.  Let’s go back to what you originally stated, that “the Social Security Program” is voluntary.  It absolutely is not. With the limited exceptions I noted, everyone has to pay FICA and Medicare taxes.   You may want to read the statute.  You may not have to get a social security number for a child, but that Chile must have one when he or she starts working unless he or she fits into one of those limited exceptions for his or her full working life.

(a)Old-age, survivors, and disability insurance
In addition to other taxes, there is hereby imposed on the income of every individual a tax equal to 6.2 percent of the wages (as defined in section 3121(a)) received by the individual with respect to employment (as defined in section 3121(b)).

(b)Hospital insurance
(1)In general
In addition to the tax imposed by the preceding subsection, there is hereby imposed on the income of every individual a tax equal to 1.45 percent of the wages (as defined in section 3121(a)) received by him with respect to employment (as defined in section 3121(b)).

(2)Additional tax
In addition to the tax imposed by paragraph (1) and the preceding subsection, there is hereby imposed on every taxpayer (other than a corporation, estate, or trust) a tax equal to 0.9 percent of wages which are received with respect to employment (as defined in section 3121(b)) during any taxable year beginning after December 31, 2012, and which are in excess of
(A)in the case of a joint return, $250,000,
(B)in the case of a married taxpayer (as defined in section 7703) filing a separate return,   of the dollar amount determined under subparagraph (A), and
(C)in any other case, $200,000.


Wages have a VERY specific definition.

wages
(2) the amount of any payment (including any amount paid by an employer for insurance or annuities, or into a fund, to provide for any such payment) made to, or on behalf of, an employee or any of his dependents under a plan or system established by an employer which makes provision for his employees generally (or for his employees generally and their dependents) or for a class or classes of his employees (or for a class or classes of his employees and their dependents), on account of  (A) sickness or accident disability (but, in the case of payments made to an employee or any of his dependents, this subparagraph shall exclude from the term "wages" only payments which are received under a workman's compensation law), or (B) medical or hospitalization expenses in connection with sickness or accident disability, or (C) death, except that this paragraph does not apply to a payment for group-term life insurance to the extent that such payment is includible in the gross income of the employee;


So if your income is NOT from wages, per the law you just quoted, Are you required to pay social security tax?

Have you never heard of self employment tax?

I haven't worked for anyone since 2010 and I pay in SS and FICA every year....as a requirement.

You're doing that thing sovereign citizens like to do by trying to misrepresent the definitions of words in an attempt to go "GOTCHA"

Underline the specific part of this law that REQUIRES anyone anywhere to present a Social Security number to receive a drivers license and I'll send you a P-mag.

(vi) Social security number. Any alien individual residing in Louisiana who does not possess and is ineligible to obtain a social security number shall not be required to furnish a social security number for issuance of a Class "E" driver's license. However, prior to the issuance of a Class "E" driver's license, in addition to other required documentation, the department shall require the alien individual to present a document demonstrating lawful presence in the United States in a status in which the alien individual may be ineligible to obtain a social security number. The list of acceptable documents demonstrating lawful presence shall be determined by the department. The department shall maintain confidentiality of an applicant's social security number. The department shall not deny any person a driver's license or a renewal if that person has not obtained a government-issued social security number based on Section 7 of Pub. L. 93-579 Section (a)(1).


If I say "Every one above 14 is not required to wear a red shirt to attend the presentation".  That doesn't mean that everyone below 14 is required to wear a red shirt. It means that NO ONE is required to wear a red shirt.

@Lawyerup Am I crazy? If you say I am and I'm completely off base, I'll send you a Pmag too.

You asked me to read a law. I did and quoted it AND even put in additional clarification from the law you asked me to read. How am I being obtuse?

For one, you are excluding shit that you don't like. What you quoted was an exclusion, not a definition. Again you take pieces out of context.

Here's right from that link.



So we go over to that section and find this right at the top.

Is your son an alien individual, or is he a resident of LA?

Resident, citizen, born here in LA.

So that entire section doesn't apply to him.

Here's right from your OMV site, a handy guide...notice the requirements at the top.

https://expresslane.dps.louisiana.gov/cdlforms/identification%20requirements.pdf

Can you make my Pmag a 10 rounder please?

NY sucks.

The typical sovereign citizen is only sovereign when it comes to laws which hold him/her accountable for things they are doing or have done.


There are a few on this site I’ve seen.

I really have no idea.

If you'll notice in one of my previous post, I linked the very same brochure and pointed out that the very same brochure that you and I both linked was written inconsistent with Louisiana state law. That's why I posted the law itself.

On top of that I linked all of the laws. The section I posted was the only one that applied to social security numbers. I don't know what to tell you.

The entire law  again
The law

There is a link to the entire section pertaining to applying for a drivers license. If you can find a statement that says anyone is required to have a SS number I'll send you a P-mag. The brochure is wrong and it's written in a manner that is intentionally confusing.

You still didn't answer my question as to what advantage not having a SSN provides.  
Can you provide any legal scenario where someone who has an SSN will pay more in taxes than someone in the exact same circumstances (employment, assets, location, marital status, ect) but does not have an SSN?

This law?

http://www.legis.la.gov/Legis/Law.aspx?d=97429

I know all of the previous stuff I've written might have you believe that I'm some hard corps militant sovereign citizen. That's absolutely not true. I follow the law just like everyone else.

To answer your question simply, I don't necessarily think there is an advantage for 99.9% of the people, as I stated earlier in the thread. I just didn't see much of a point signing my son up, at birth, for a social retirement program run by the federal government. It literally is a 15 minute exercise to go apply for and receive a card/number.

At this point, there is literally nothing that he/we have tried to do that has been hindered by the fact he doesn't have one. It's become entertaining and a challenge proving to everyone they are not actually required for most of the stuff people think they are required for. See the Louisiana Drivers license example.

Chances are, when he's 16 he'll decide to get one and I'll probably drive him to the office. It'll still be his choice.

Using that link, there is this pesky little bit in there.



The list of required documents is available on the OMV site.

Nice try.

Notice that is for a "special identification card" and not a drivers license. Also, you only have to provide a social security number "if available", never says it's a requirement.

For the record, I absolutely appreciate your tenacity.

Agreed and SS card / number isn't included in that list.

If you read the social security section carefully, at the end is this statement..
The department shall not deny any person a driver's license or a renewal if that person has not obtained a government-issued social security number based on Section 7 of Pub. L. 93-579 Section (a)(1).

Here's a link to Section 7 of pub  etc.

Link

The law pertaining to the issuing of Drivers Licenses specifically states you can't be denied a drivers license if you don't have a social security number.

Now, do you think the brochure is wrong?

I don't know what to tell you man.

Walk into any OMV and try to get a new license without an SSN and see how it goes.

They can't really spell it out any clearer, here's the list of things you need to have with you when you apply. If you don't have them they are going to just say "Oh...come back when you do". The law as written enforces these requirements.

Hell, your son is 14, he can go apply for a learner's permit today...take him and see how it goes.

https://www.expresslane.org/drivers/personal-driver-s-licenses/new-licenses/



The privacy act does not apply.

It's in regards to rights, benefits and privileges provided by law. A driver's license is not provided by law, it's optional.



The OMV does this here.

So anyway. I'm partial to OD green p-mags, but black is fine too.

I agree the brochure says that and it's wrong per the law. You couldn't find the requirement and they won't be able to either. There is no legal requirement in Louisiana to have a SS# to get a drivers license.

I know exactly what's going to happen when we go to the DMV to get a drivers license. The nice lady is going to get a confused look and is going to hand me the brochure and say try again. I'll do my thing and in the end, they will issue my son a drivers license and he won't have a social security number when it happens. At this point it's entertainment.

I got the state police/Dept. Of Public Safety to modify the vehicle inspection program state wide over a 15 dollar fee they wanted me to pay that was wrong. This was after talking to the attorney at the LA office of public protection that told me the same thing happened to their very own daughter and there was nothing I could do. I've beat several tickets over improperly applied law, I got no problem handling the DMV.

My parents are in their 70s, grandmother has been dead for 20 something years.

I would like to see that one play out.

Care to follow through with it?

Looks like he can go in for a learner's permit now.

What are you going to do about the clearly listed requirement for Selective Service?

Wanna see something crazy, per the Selective Service website

If you have a social security number, you are required to provide it. [50 U.S.C. 3802(b); 32 CFR 1615.4(a)]. However, you are not required to have a social security number to register with Selective Service.

SSS FAQ

The NY DMV isn't even following the SSS guidelines around having a SS number to register.

We already did this, the OMV can set their own requirements.

This section supports that



They explain why, as required by the Privacy Act.

They are allowed to require a SSN, and the only exemption (as listed) is if you are not eligible for one.

You won't "do you thing" to get around that requirement.

I'm absolutely going to do it. In Louisiana you have to be 15 so you'll have to wait a year. Also, I may have an ace in the hole about cutting through the red tape. I know the woman in charge of the DMV state wide. She's a friend and she will fully expect me to do this and would be shocked if I didn't.

Likely, I'll first write the AG's office looking for a legal opinion on the matter and then take it to her and get the brochure changed and subsequent guidance for the DMV folks.

And as mentioned before, there is NO requirement in the law for a SS number. So "any other information required by the dept." subsection doesn't include SS number because that was addressed in the section right above it that doesn't require the SS number.

I don't care what a website or brochure says. It's not the law, the law is the law.

I found this link also.

Its a little more detailed.

https://public.powerdms.com/LADPSC/documents/368154



The directly reference the law you've cited as not providing any information, but here's another important bit of it.

(2) An applicant for a driver's license shall provide the following information:

(d) Identifying information including:

(i) Date of birth (month, day, and year).

           (ii) Sex.

           (iii) Height.

           (iv) Weight.

           (v) Eye and hair color.

           (vi) Social security number.

That period is important, it makes it a requirement, codified.

So about that P mag?

Here's the full excerpt again.



A clear list, in law.

You owe me a P-mag