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Posted: 5/20/2023 11:05:00 AM EST
[#1]
Quote HistoryQuoted: I think even worse is the people here who should know better but still blindly support Biden’s “current thing”. Can’t help but notice many of them have retired and no longer have to worry about being directly impacted by more war other than to attend more briefings in their GS jobs. Funny how that works. Almost nobody wants to join a hot war, but there are plenty in these threads that have put their necks out more than a guy burning $20k an hour to drop PGMs on goat herders. |
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Posted: 5/20/2023 11:06:07 AM EST
[#2]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Not directly. Yet. Ask again in the next year. And it really doesn’t matter but if Russia thinks we are then I’m not sure it matters. Do you believe that Russian leadership actually believes they are fighting NATO or is it just low quality IO for low quality recipients? |
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Posted: 5/20/2023 11:06:37 AM EST
[#3]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Aren’t you an artillery officer? The fuck do you know about Dutch and Danish F16s? Quote HistoryQuoted: Aren’t you an artillery officer? The fuck do you know about Dutch and Danish F16s? What are your related bonifides? Quoted: I thought everyone wanted Europe to do more. Now people are mad that they are doing more? It's hard to keep up when the goal posts keep moving. Every time Europe does something it is contingent upon the US conducting 90% of the heavy lifting and funding. We keep asking what the second order implications to the US will be with European fighters being refurbished and sent to Ukraine, but numbers and logistics are the magical part that get removed from emotion based discussions. |
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Posted: 5/20/2023 11:07:41 AM EST
[#4]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Almost nobody wants to join a hot war, but there are plenty in these threads that have put their necks out more than a guy burning $20k an hour to drop PGMs on goat herders. Sorry guy, can only play the teams on the schedule. Perhaps you should cope harder. |
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Posted: 5/20/2023 11:10:44 AM EST
[#5]
Quote HistoryQuoted: FUCK Ukraine. Fight your own war. NATO expansion has caused this, and now we are doing everything we can to kick off WW3. Complete bullshit. That’s a pretty simplistic view. Putin would have invaded sooner or later due to the vast oil and gas reserves in Ukraine and control of the pipelines that run through Ukraine to Europe. NATO expansion is but a part of what’s going on there. |
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Posted: 5/20/2023 11:17:04 AM EST
[#6]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Not directly. Yet. Ask again in the next year. And it really doesn’t matter but if Russia thinks we are then I’m not sure it matters. Just like we got nuked in 1945-1991 during the various proxy wars and conflicts? Did Russia show the same hesitation when supporting our enemies? |
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Posted: 5/20/2023 11:18:54 AM EST
[#7]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Just like we got nuked in 1945-1991 during the various proxy wars and conflicts? Did Russia show the same hesitation when supporting our enemies? So because something didn’t happen means it won’t happen? Interesting take. Not worth the risk for an insignificant country like Ukraine. Plenty of other countries worth fighting for. 10% though right |
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Posted: 5/20/2023 11:35:06 AM EST
[#8]
Quote HistoryQuoted: FUCK Ukraine. Fight your own war. NATO expansion has caused this, and now we are doing everything we can to kick off WW3. Complete bullshit. lol |
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Posted: 5/20/2023 11:39:01 AM EST
[#9]
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Posted: 5/20/2023 11:40:09 AM EST
[#10]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Sorry guy, can only play the teams on the schedule. Perhaps you should cope harder. Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: Almost nobody wants to join a hot war, but there are plenty in these threads that have put their necks out more than a guy burning $20k an hour to drop PGMs on goat herders. Sorry guy, can only play the teams on the schedule. Perhaps you should cope harder. I haven't spent much time under rocket attack risk, but some of the people you're lecturing have been at real threat of death. It takes a lack of awareness to not recognize that. That's the point you missed. |
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Posted: 5/20/2023 11:41:45 AM EST
[#11]
Quote HistoryQuoted: So because something didn’t happen means it won’t happen? Interesting take. Not worth the risk for an insignificant country like Ukraine. Plenty of other countries worth fighting for. 10% though right Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: Just like we got nuked in 1945-1991 during the various proxy wars and conflicts? Did Russia show the same hesitation when supporting our enemies? So because something didn’t happen means it won’t happen? Interesting take. Not worth the risk for an insignificant country like Ukraine. Plenty of other countries worth fighting for. 10% though right Is it guaranteed? Few things in life are. Is it informative? Absolutely. And thanks for keeping up the trend of posts containing "10% for the big guy" references being no value. |
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Posted: 5/20/2023 11:43:02 AM EST
[#12]
Quote HistoryQuoted: I haven't spent much time under rocket attack risk, but some of the people you're lecturing have been at real threat of death. Thanks for thinking about me like that. |
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Posted: 5/20/2023 11:55:05 AM EST
[#13]
Ukraines logistics guys have to be sleeping poorly these days. Way too many differing systems and standards.
 Nick |
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Posted: 5/20/2023 11:59:33 AM EST
[#14]
Quote HistoryQuoted: FUCK Ukraine. Fight your own war. NATO expansion has caused this, and now we are doing everything we can to kick off WW3. Complete bullshit.  Attached File |
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Posted: 5/20/2023 12:16:14 PM EST
[#15]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Yes, fighting a nuclear power makes it less likely for them to use nuclear weapons rather than not fighting them. Absolute genius stuff here. If your only goal is to reduce the chance of use of nuclear weapons, you should advocate preemptive surrender. Or you can admit that there are other goals in play. |
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Posted: 5/20/2023 12:19:06 PM EST
[#16]
The fact that we have people screeching this hard over one european nation wanting to provide its own military hardware to another in order to better fight the Russians tells me all I need to know about certain people's actual motivations behind not wanting to help Ukraine.
And its not actually about depleting our own supply or cost to our own taxpayers. |
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Posted: 5/20/2023 12:21:25 PM EST
[#17]
Quote HistoryQuoted: The fact that we have people screeching this hard over one european nation wanting to provide its own military hardware to another in order to better fight the Russians tells me all I need to know about certain people's actual motivations behind not wanting to help Ukraine. And its not actually about depleting our own supply or cost to our own taxpayers. Who pays for the F16 training, Andrew? |
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Posted: 5/20/2023 12:26:00 PM EST
[#18]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Who pays for the F16 training, Andrew? How much money are we talking about FlyNavy75? How many pilots? Who is getting paid? I await the detailed answer that you care enough about to have thoroughly researched. |
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Posted: 5/20/2023 12:28:15 PM EST
[#19]
Quote HistoryQuoted: How much money are we talking about FlyNavy75? How many pilots? Who is getting paid? I await the detailed answer that you care enough about to have thoroughly researched. Well the estimates are 4-18 months of flight training. That’s paying for the gas for them and another instructor jet times however many sorties they fly until complete. I’m guessing they get paid for quarters to stay in and hell, we are probably paying them on top of it. How’s this to answer your question- even one fucking dollar is too much. |
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Posted: 5/20/2023 12:29:56 PM EST
[#20]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Well the estimates are 4-18 months of flight training. That’s paying for the gas for them and another instructor jet times however many sorties they fly until complete. I’m guessing they get paid for quarters to stay in and hell, we are probably paying them on top of it. How’s this to answer your question- even one fucking dollar is too much. I rest my case. I didn't make you wear that slipper either. But I'll be damned if you didn't jump over the balcony and vault the orchestra pit to put it on. |
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Posted: 5/20/2023 12:30:38 PM EST
[#21]
Quote HistoryQuoted: The fact that we have people screeching this hard over one european nation wanting to provide its own military hardware to another in order to better fight the Russians tells me all I need to know about certain people's actual motivations behind not wanting to help Ukraine. And its not actually about depleting our own supply or cost to our own taxpayers. We don’t have any hard numbers yet. My impression is there’s concerns over who supplies maintenance, weaponry etc. Biden authorized training for F-16 pilots along with a handful of other NATO members offering training. But officially Netherlands has not made a specific statement on numbers. As the BBC news article above your post on this page states. There’s a G-7 meeting so I imagine talks will take place and it may take awhile before details are worked out. In this vacuum I’m guessing some posting in this thread are concerned where the rubber meets the road on the details. If the US simply provides training and no other support and Europe’s NATO members are the providers of the aircraft, maintenance and missiles for Ukraine’s F-16s you might have a point but as it stands without additional information I imagine there’s worry everything could fall onto USA shoulders despite no information implying it would or will - I gather GD seems pretty jaded from recent history not just for Ukraine but any topic regarding military and foreign policy. https://amp.theguardian.com/world/2023/may/19/us-indicates-will-not-block-european-countries-export-f-16-jets-ukraine |
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Posted: 5/20/2023 12:30:56 PM EST
[#22]
Quote HistoryQuoted: I rest my case. I didn't make you wear that slipper either. But I'll be damned if you didn't jump over the balcony and vault the orchestra pit to put it on. Don’t really care. America first. Look in the mirror, try saying it. Or not. |
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Posted: 5/20/2023 12:35:15 PM EST
[#23]
Quote HistoryQuoted: We don’t have any hard numbers yet. My impression is there’s concerns over who supplies maintenance, weaponry etc. Biden authorized training for F-16 pilots along with a handful of other NATO members offering trading. But officially Netherlands has not made a specific statement on numbers. As the BBC news article above your post on this page states. There’s a G-7 meeting so I imagine talks will take place and it may take awhile before details are worked out. In this vacuum I’m guessing some are concerned where the rubber meets the road on the details. If the US simply provides training and no other support and Europe’s NATO members are the providers of the aircraft, maintenance and missiles for Ukraine’s F-16s you might have a point but as it stands without additional information I imagine there’s worry everything could fall into USA shoulders - I gather GD seems pretty jaded from recent history not just for Ukraine but any topic regarding military and foreign policy. Sounds like a good reason to not clench ones teeth so hard then (not directed at you.) At least until we have hard figures and a basis for reasonable debate. But apparently, even if it only cost the American taxpayers one dollar... that would be too much for some people. |
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Posted: 5/20/2023 12:35:56 PM EST
[#24]
Quote HistoryQuoted: So because something didn’t happen means it won’t happen? Interesting take. Not worth the risk for an insignificant country like Ukraine. Plenty of other countries worth fighting for. 10% though right Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: Just like we got nuked in 1945-1991 during the various proxy wars and conflicts? Did Russia show the same hesitation when supporting our enemies? So because something didn’t happen means it won’t happen? Interesting take. Not worth the risk for an insignificant country like Ukraine. Plenty of other countries worth fighting for. 10% though right So America being nuked is fine, it just has to be for countries you deem “worth fighting for” Well okay |
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Posted: 5/20/2023 12:36:58 PM EST
[#25]
Quote HistoryQuoted: The fact that we have people screeching this hard over one european nation wanting to provide its own military hardware to another in order to better fight the Russians tells me all I need to know about certain people's actual motivations behind not wanting to help Ukraine. And its not actually about depleting our own supply or cost to our own taxpayers. My arms room is more depleted and affected by border missions than aid to Ukraine. No screeching there |
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Posted: 5/20/2023 12:38:31 PM EST
[#26]
Quote HistoryQuoted: So America being nuked is fine, it just has to be for countries you deem “worth fighting for” Well okay If I have to die in a nuclear blast I’d rather it be for Zimbabwe than Ukraine. But yes, there is a difference between fighting wars over real strategic interests and fight wars to line pocketbooks. See recent history. But this time will be different. Let’s talk in a decade when we are still paying for Ukraine. |
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Posted: 5/20/2023 12:41:13 PM EST
[#27]
Quote HistoryQuoted: If I have to die in a nuclear blast I’d rather it be for Zimbabwe than Ukraine. But yes, there is a difference between fighting wars over real strategic interests and fight wars to line pocketbooks. See recent history. But this time will be different. Let’s talk in a decade when we are still paying for Ukraine. What’s our strategic relationship with Zimbabwe that makes them more preferred? |
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Posted: 5/20/2023 12:41:18 PM EST
[#28]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Almost nobody wants to join a hot war, but there are plenty in these threads that have put their necks out more than a guy burning $20k an hour to drop PGMs on goat herders. I love the back-handed implication that anyone who has flown fighters in combat since 2001 hasn't faced any opposition, threat, or risk. |
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Posted: 5/20/2023 12:44:17 PM EST
[#29]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Well the estimates are 4-18 months of flight training. That’s paying for the gas for them and another instructor jet times however many sorties they fly until complete. I’m guessing they get paid for quarters to stay in and hell, we are probably paying them on top of it. How’s this to answer your question- even one fucking dollar is too much. Air ops is out of my lane but I’m operating under the assumption we have the requisite training personnel available. Is your concern training detracts from US mission focus or simply on principle that the US should not provide aid of any kind for the defense of Ukraine as it’s solely a European or solely a Ukrainian task? Or economic/financial concern? Cal guard was running training with Ukraine as far back as the 1990s, so I’m coming from the ARNG background and SOF background for advise, train and assist for the reasoning as to why I’m not opposed to training their personnel. |
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Posted: 5/20/2023 12:45:30 PM EST
[#30]
Quote HistoryQuoted: https://www.ar15.com/media/mediaFiles/56596/IMG_2035_jpeg-2822751.JPG You are the one posted this F-16 are systems, not ammunition. Maybe that news will reach your brain one day. I have zero hope tho, so I give you the "click" you deserve so much. |
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Posted: 5/20/2023 12:47:25 PM EST
[#31]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Air ops is out of my lane but I’m operating under the assumption we have the requisite training personnel available. Is your concern training detracts from US mission focus or simply on principle that the US should not provide aid of any kind for the defense of Ukraine as it’s solely a European or solely a Ukrainian task? Or economic/financial concern? Cal guard was running training with Ukraine as far back as the 1990s, so I’m coming from the ARNG background and SOF background for advise, train and assist for the reasoning as to why I’m not opposed to training their personnel. What I want means nothing. Big government wants billions spent in Iraq, I mean Ukraine so that’s what’s happening. I’d rather see every dollar spent at home, or better yet, refunded to tax payers. If Taiwan or Ukraine want to BUY stuff then by all means, break out the credit card. I’m just sick of being an American and watching year after year of other countries and their citizens placed before me. |
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Posted: 5/20/2023 12:48:16 PM EST
[#32]
Quote HistoryQuoted: If I have to die in a nuclear blast I’d rather it be for Zimbabwe than Ukraine. But yes, there is a difference between fighting wars over real strategic interests and fight wars to line pocketbooks. See recent history. But this time will be different. Let’s talk in a decade when we are still paying for Ukraine. Humorously Europium!   Attached File |
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Posted: 5/20/2023 12:49:31 PM EST
[#33]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Air ops is out of my lane but I’m operating under the assumption we have the requisite training personnel available. USAF training is planned 3 years ahead of time, both in terms of financial outlay and personnel manning, for a finite planned number of students on a known syllabus. You can't just suddenly inject new students into that pipeline and not expect it to have a substantial impact on our own USAF training. You can't inject any noticeable number of new students into a structure designed to handle only the planned student throughput. Without an immediate infusion of new instructors *and* aircraft, every new Ukranian student trainee would effectively bump a US student. |
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Posted: 5/20/2023 12:53:19 PM EST
[#34]
Quoted: What I want means nothing |
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Posted: 5/20/2023 12:53:49 PM EST
[#35]
Quote HistoryQuoted: F-16 are systems, not ammunition. Maybe that news will reach your brain one day. I have zero hope tho, so I give you the "click" you deserve so much. There are two types of people involved here, people smart enough to solve problems by looking across an entire spectrum... And people like you that aren't. Armament is a known, quantifiable second order effect that is implied when one speaks of bringing in a new airframe or weapon system. Arguable its one of the most important details as a fighter is only as useful as its ability to fight. When I send a team of people somewhere the immediate planning works backwards from most important known impactors. Do they have reliable access to water? How do we feed and maintain their class V supplies? Then there are the flyby people like yourself that don't know anything and are perfectly fine with the executive summary narrative, which is how plans and missions fail. Its also how resources get wasted or misallocated, because people are too lazy to do the required analysis. |
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Posted: 5/20/2023 12:54:52 PM EST
[#36]
Quote HistoryQuoted: USAF training is planned 3 years ahead of time, both in terms of financial outlay and personnel manning, for a finite planned number of students on a known syllabus. You can't just suddenly inject new students into that pipeline and not expect it to have a substantial impact on our own USAF training. You can't inject any noticeable number of new students into a structure designed to handle only the planned student throughput. Without an immediate infusion of new instructors *and* aircraft, every new Ukranian student trainee would effectively bump a US student. Appreciate the insight and clarification 
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Posted: 5/20/2023 12:56:02 PM EST
[#37]
Quote HistoryQuoted: The fact that we have people screeching this hard over one european nation wanting to provide its own military hardware to another in order to better fight the Russians tells me all I need to know about certain people's actual motivations behind not wanting to help Ukraine. And its not actually about depleting our own supply or cost to our own taxpayers. It’s pretty telling. |
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Posted: 5/20/2023 12:57:12 PM EST
[#38]
Quote HistoryQuoted: It’s pretty telling. Indeed. And much like having pronouns, so is having an Ukraine flag in your bio. |
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Posted: 5/20/2023 12:59:00 PM EST
[#39]
Quote HistoryQuoted: What I want means nothing. Big government wants billions spent in Iraq, I mean Ukraine so that’s what’s happening. I’d rather see every dollar spent at home, or better yet, refunded to tax payers. If Taiwan or Ukraine want to BUY stuff then by all means, break out the credit card. I’m just sick of being an American and watching year after year of other countries and their citizens placed before me. Thanks for clarifying
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Posted: 5/20/2023 12:59:04 PM EST
[#40]
Quote HistoryQuoted: There are two types of people involved here, people smart enough to solve problems by looking across an entire spectrum... And people like you that aren't. Armament is a known, quantifiable second order effect that is implied when one speaks of bringing in a new airframe or weapon system. Arguable its one of the most important details as a fighter is only as useful as its ability to fight. When I send a team of people somewhere the immediate planning works backwards from most important known impactors. Do they have reliable access to water? How do we feed and maintain their class V supplies? Then there are the flyby people like yourself that don't know anything and are perfectly fine with the executive summary narrative, which is how plans and missions fail. And like anyone else here, they can’t explain why zukraine is of such national importance to us when we are collapsing at home. Much less being able to explain the end game to this entire grift. Just “muh Russia” and supporting the current thing. That’s as deep as it gets. |
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Posted: 5/20/2023 1:01:27 PM EST
[#41]
Quote HistoryQuoted: And like anyone else here, they can’t explain why zukraine is of such national importance to us when we are collapsing at home. Much less being able to explain the end game to this entire grift. Just “muh Russia” and supporting the current thing. That’s as deep as it gets. You either fail to read or comprehend when people do share. It’s one thing to disagree with their opinion, but people of folks have shared it and to pretend otherwise is intellectually dishonest. |
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Posted: 5/20/2023 1:01:39 PM EST
[#42]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Indeed. And much like having pronouns, so is having an Ukraine flag in your bio. Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: It’s pretty telling. Indeed. And much like having pronouns, so is having an Ukraine flag in your bio. Ah yes, you’re one of those people. That explains it. |
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Posted: 5/20/2023 1:02:53 PM EST
[#43]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Ah yes, you’re one of those people. That explains it. Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: Quoted: It’s pretty telling. Indeed. And much like having pronouns, so is having an Ukraine flag in your bio. Ah yes, you’re one of those people. That explains it. Damnit Swede. Why aren’t you America first? |
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Posted: 5/20/2023 1:04:52 PM EST
[#44]
Quote HistoryQuoted: You either fail to read or comprehend when people do share. It’s one thing to disagree with their opinion, but people of folks have shared it and to pretend otherwise is intellectually dishonest. Don’t worry big guy, everyone knew your stance on the issue when the thread was titled “Biden endorses”. And no, nobody has in any depth explained the two issues I brought up. Certainly nobody in the Biden administration has. Biden’s stance is “whatever it takes”. His exact words. Don’t know why you even bother, you are getting exactly your way. We will have unlimited spending in Ukraine for as long as it takes. Ten years, twenty years, who cares. Bask in your victory. Personally I think it’s awful for America but I doubt you care about that. |
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Posted: 5/20/2023 1:06:20 PM EST
[#45]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Damnit Swede. Why aren’t you A,Erica first? Ah yes, now it comes out. So you make a joke about America first. Telling. Just another current thing, progressive drone who fancies himself as a big thinker, similar to the couple retired USMC O5s here who are similarly challenged. |
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Posted: 5/20/2023 1:08:34 PM EST
[#46]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Don’t worry big guy, everyone knew your stance on the issue when the thread was titled “Biden endorses”. And no, nobody has in any depth explained the two issues I brought up. Certainly nobody in the Biden administration has. Biden’s stance is “whatever it takes”. His exact words. Don’t know why you even bother, you are getting exactly your way. We will have unlimited spending in Ukraine for as long as it takes. Ten years, twenty years, who cares. Bask in your victory. Personally I think it’s awful for America but I doubt you care about that. That is an awful lot of of emotional writing flying in formation. |
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Posted: 5/20/2023 1:09:05 PM EST
[#47]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Ah yes, now it comes out. So you make a joke about America first. Telling. Just another current thing, progressive drone who fancies himself as a big thinker, similar to the couple retired USMC O5s here who are similarly challenged. Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: Damnit Swede. Why aren’t you A,Erica first? Ah yes, now it comes out. So you make a joke about America first. Telling. Just another current thing, progressive drone who fancies himself as a big thinker, similar to the couple retired USMC O5s here who are similarly challenged. ”Current thing” You couldn’t be more transparent about where you got your script from if you tried. lmao 
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Posted: 5/20/2023 1:09:31 PM EST
[#48]
Quote HistoryQuoted: That is an awful lot of of emotional writing flying in formation. Ok, now that that response is out of the way, feel free to refute anything in it. |
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Posted: 5/20/2023 1:10:23 PM EST
[#49]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Ah yes, now it comes out. So you make a joke about America first. Telling. Just another current thing, progressive drone who fancies himself as a big thinker, similar to the couple retired USMC O5s here who are similarly challenged. Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: Damnit Swede. Why aren’t you A,Erica first? Ah yes, now it comes out. So you make a joke about America first. Telling. Just another current thing, progressive drone who fancies himself as a big thinker, similar to the couple retired USMC O5s here who are similarly challenged.  . Jesus man. He’s Swedish.You are seriously unhinged. I’d recommend a DNIF period. |
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Posted: 5/20/2023 1:10:53 PM EST
[#50]
Quote HistoryQuoted: ”Current thing” You couldn’t be more transparent about where you got your script from if you tried. lmao Oh no, you’ve been exposed to a different opinion. So sorry this is happening to you. I have yet to see one decent post from anyone with an Ukraine flag in their bio. That trend continues. |
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