Quoted:
No, you're completely missing the point. The likelihood that there were people intentionally killed by Ukrainians for propaganda purposes is basically zero.  There is an extremely high likelihood that some people were killed by Russians intentionally that were acting as partisan combatants, that some were killed that were innocent civilians, some were killed by artillery and air strikes by Ukrainians or Russians and it's also extremely possible that some innocent civilians that were not acting as partisan fighters were killed by Russians.  

Neither you nor I know where each of those bodies falls in those different categories, and it's also stupid and immaterial to try and figure out that "truth".  What is material is that none of those people would be dead had Russia not attacked Ukraine, so it makes no difference to me if Ukraine or the West uses their deaths for propaganda purposes against Russia. Propaganda is part of warfare.

Quoted:



Yup. And yet we were able to figure out much of the truth concerning those things weren't we? But somehow we can't figure anything out about Ukraine.

hmm....

Quoted:

There’s a thread in the military section where the vets have done a pretty good job sifting through the BS to paint a decent picture of what’s going on using sources from everywhere. Roland is a part of that discussion. It amazing the information compiled while avoiding these petty arguments.

Quoted:

Any intel analysts in there? They often have a very different perspective.

Quoted:



Nobody is censored (except if you're in Russia) but if you post something stupid, people are going to say so.

Quoted:

fear you live in some alternate universe. please tell me you are not serious...

Quoted:

Have any NATO nations threaten Russia with force? No
Has Russia threatened EVERYONE with nuclear destruction? Yeppers

Quoted:



Yeah, unless they are "spitting Russian talking points" in certain threads.  

About posting stupid things, just go back and take a look at how many are questioning your bs.  All of us are "Putin lovers" and "colluding with Russia"?  

Quoted:

As with the bodies in Bucha, that isn't in dispute. What IS in dispute - not only now, but for pretty much every "atrocity" to this point - is who is responsible. Details matter.

https://metro.co.uk/2022/04/04/ukraine-war-horrifying-picture-shows-swastika-on-corpse-of-rape-victim-16402227/

Again, it is far too common to see things like the following:

Metro.co.uk has been unable to verify the image...

It is unclear where the latest image comes from...

Of course, that same article quotes a journalist who claims it was the Azovs who did this. What can be taken from this on the whole? How can anybody possibly claim to know with any degree of certainty who did what?

How many times do we hear sensational bullshit from our own media with the caveat "if true" only for it turn out to be anything but? How many times can you be duped by the same people?

Quoted:

Absolutely

Quoted:
No, you're completely missing the point. The likelihood that there were people intentionally killed by Ukrainians for propaganda purposes is basically zero.  There is an extremely high likelihood that some people were killed by Russians intentionally that were acting as partisan combatants, that some were killed that were innocent civilians, some were killed by artillery and air strikes by Ukrainians or Russians and it's also extremely possible that some innocent civilians that were not acting as partisan fighters were killed by Russians.  

Neither you nor I know where each of those bodies falls in those different categories, and it's also stupid and immaterial to try and figure out that "truth".  What is material is that none of those people would be dead had Russia not attacked Ukraine, so it makes no difference to me if Ukraine or the West uses their deaths for propaganda purposes against Russia. Propaganda is part of warfare.

Quoted:

you are very uninformed

Quoted:
I always find this line of questioning information interesting because you are pretending as if you, a regular dude on the street, will actually ever have enough information about something like this to know the "truth".  Newsflash:  What you think you are entitled to is a fantasy. You will never be given access to classified data about this from either side. You will never see how things work behind the scenes to determine which information you are allowed to see. Your choice as a human being is either to live with the fact that you will always be partially in the dark, or continue to complain about the reality over which you have no control over.  All of that wailing and gnashing of teeth to try to figure out whether the US media or the Russian media is lying to you is a stupid exercise in futility. It also doesn't matter one bit. You either agree with what Russia is doing as a human being and as an American, or you don't.  Trust of media has zero to do with it.  If you want to read RT so that you can see Russia's made up justification for the war, have at it. If you want to read the New York Times to see what propaganda Ukraine and the State Department is putting out to justify giving weapons to the Ukraine, have at it. The only relevant question is whether giving Ukraine weapons serves US strategic interests. You won't find the answer to that in any media source.

Quoted:

Are you implying the American government tells American outlets what their opinion should be, ala RT, or that outlets like the NYT are in cahoots with the American government. I don't think its any secret that the United States as a whole has an adversarial relationship with Russia, and that would reflect in a lot of media opinion.

Quoted:



And, because of that, "regular dudes on the street" have to swallow any bs that's spit on them?

Quoted:


Gee, wouldn't it be nice if there were mechanisms by which to validate information without relying on official sources?

Quoted:

Again, nobody is disputing the presence of bodies. What matters is who killed them, when, and how. Has it occurred to you that they may have been casualties of Ukrainian artillery? Casualties of both Russian and Ukrainian artillery?

The bodies are there. We can see that. The details and explanations attached to those bodies are words and propaganda, much like the bombed-out building in Iraq was a "baby milk factory" after it was blown up.

Quoted:



Definitely.  And that's what we are discussing here.

And just because sometimes there's no agreement about the information credibility, it does not mean that is it "Russian talking points" as some try to imply.

Quoted:
You get to choose between Russian orc spit or highly refined American spit. Have fun choosing which one.

Quoted:

This might be true, but that's far more dangerous than outright lying like the Iraqi Information Minister. The "10% lie," as it is often known in finance, is orders of magnitude more dangerous than the 100% lie.

Quoted:




Hmmm how about neither

Quoted:



Definitely.  And that's what we are discussing here.

And just because sometimes there's no agreement about the information credibility, it does not mean that is it "Russian talking points" as some try to imply.

Quoted:


When your points are direct from the Kremlin then they are in fact Russian talking points, and no, saying the ghost of kiev is fake isn't a Russian talking point, neither is healthy skepticism. But straight denial of everything in face of multiple sources of information with NO information to discredit it is plain stupid.

Quoted:

Russia lies for the same reason anybody else lies during wartime - to sway public opinion, both foreign and domestic, in their favor by distorting reality. Why has Russia ever lied? Communist (Soviet) propaganda was primarily variations on "we are strong and prosperous, and the US is weak." This is not far from that reason. This is precisely what Ukraine does as well - attempting to build support by conducting more or less a social media / urban legend underdog campaign.

I have no idea why anybody's hands were tied behind their back, and I have no idea who killed the bodies that have apparently been decomposing for weeks in the street. I have no idea if the hands were tied pre- or post-mortem. Neither do you. That's why people (not here, obviously) are calling for some sort of fact-finding investigation prior to assigning blame.

Quoted:

That makes sense because Ukraine is punching in well above their weight.  They are getting help in the form of advisors which usually means we have SF and CIA types on the ground advising Zelensky and his staff.

There are probably that pair of Raptors overhead somewhere nearby providing overwatch.  I'm sure it's a safe bet to believe those pair of F-22s were brought over to Poland to test and gather intelligence on Russian air defenses at first.  Seems like just like everything else, it was over hyped and no match for Raptors.

They pretty much learned they can roam the Ukrainian skies almost at will, and have been doing so.  The Sentries on the border are probably steering them out of visual range of Russian planes.

I'm sure that Putin knows those boots are there and the Raptors have been in the air space he considers his.  Thats whats likely behind his threats to the west.

Russian/Soviet military has been punching in well below it's weight. That's not going to last for long.  Russians are learning and regrouping to where I suspect they will start punching in around their weight which is just about average in the world.  Their military investment and upgrades have been poor overall, but very good in specific areas like their subs.

However, this is not a war for their subs.  It's a war for ground pounders and support needed.  Their infantry sucks, their tanks suck, their logistics support sucks, their military doctrine for ground wars sucks, and their air support lacking a full eco-system necessary for air superiority.

Putin is going to regroup and refocus on the eastern side of Ukraine as been reported. He is going to focus on territorial gains in the east linking to the Dnieper river in the south to that peninsula on the Black sea.  That will choke off much of Ukraine's ability to ship trade and turn this war into one of attrition.

German will become disinterested in helping Ukraine with arms shipments as their politicians don't want the backlash of voter resentment on economic issues.  They will lead the stronger EU NATO countries to join them, and it will effectively reduce arms shipments to Ukraine.  Ukraine will not be able to fight as effectively.

Eventually Putin will offer a deal to Ukraine to capitulate and be a partner of his new deal.  That new deal won't be a true new deal, but a dust off of the WARSAW pact.  Once that's complete, he will do what the Soviets did back before WWII.  He will lean on Estonia, Latvia, and Lithuania to join.  Estonia will be the first to capitulate as they did back then.  

The other two will follow. They will leave NATO and join this pact as they will become fully aware that EU NATO powerhouses don't care about them.

He will leave Finland alone as the Fins refused which started the Soviet invasion of their country.  It didn't go according to the Soviet's plan.  They had thought it would have been quick, but not.  History does repeat itself.

He'll go after the breakaway republics in the south and bring those back into the new iron curtain.  No EU country will care.

He will go after Moldova, Poland, and Hungray.  Moldova will capitulate, Hungray likely as it tends to be pro-Russian in their political system.  Poland is a no way in hell, and will fight.

That's what's in store for the European continent if they don't do something now.  They need to lead and fly a no-fly zone in the western portion of Ukraine.  This allows Ukraine to use more resources to fight the Russians in the east.  Otherwise, they need to leave a significant amount of military resources in the north and west to not leave their flank bordering Belarus exposed.

If Putin pulls this off, then the Asian-Pac region will become China's personal playground for their expansive desires like nothing today.

There's a lot at stake here, and it would be nice to count on the Europeans to take care of their neighborhood before this shit gets really out of hand.

Quoted:

Commercial images. And good RussiansCommies aren’t born, they are made.

Quoted:

Russia lies for the same reason anybody else lies during wartime - to sway public opinion, both foreign and domestic, in their favor by distorting reality. Why has Russia ever lied? Communist (Soviet) propaganda was primarily variations on "we are strong and prosperous, and the US is weak." This is not far from that reason. This is precisely what Ukraine does as well - attempting to build support by conducting more or less a social media / urban legend underdog campaign.

I have no idea why anybody's hands were tied behind their back, and I have no idea who killed the bodies that have apparently been decomposing for weeks in the street. I have no idea if the hands were tied pre- or post-mortem. Neither do you. That's why people (not here, obviously) are calling for some sort of fact-finding investigation prior to assigning blame.

Quoted:

Putin aspires to become the czar and restart the Cold War.

Quoted:



Until you can provide credible sources, anything you spew is nonsense and lies.  Your previous posts already made that quite clear.

So, right now you are just projecting.

Quoted:


Yours has to be a Shareblue shill account.

Quoted:


If it's RT, it's literally Russian talking points.  Dancing around it or glossing over that fact doesn't make it go away.  You have been told a 100% truth that this is the most well documented conflict in history and you are making an active choice to ignore a wealth of high confidence OSINT work in favor of headlines that line up with what you choose to believe.

Quoted:


I used to enjoy all the intelligence & knowledge of ARFCOM, but since the massive infestation of the "No Star" 20,21, 22 Alex Jones / "Q" idiots, I just shake my head at how the I.Q. level of ARFCOM has recently plunged off a cliff the past few years.

No wonder so many of the Great insightful & smart members are "signing off" ARFCOM due to massive NOISE to actual Signal ratio ...

ARFCOM as of late has become overrun & occupied territory by the stupids of the Alex Jones / "Q" Tards fan base.

You'd think they would just start their OWN board to rehash all the IT'S A CONSPIRACY Theories & Bull Shit.

BIGGER_HAMMER

Quoted:


This is a pretty transparent attempt to lump all "I'm not willing to side with Ukraine or Russia in this conflict and I don't believe what the media on either side is telling us" with the "crazy Q tards" and "Alex Jones retards".  Yours must also be a Shareblue shill account, this is blatant propagandizing/manipulation.

Quoted:


Gee, wouldn't it be nice if there were mechanisms by which to validate information without relying on official sources?

Quoted:



If you go back, no one is questioning that RT is the Russian side, or propaganda.

What is being questioned is the information presented to the American public, which also comes from very questionable sources.

Therefore, as OP suggested, using RT to help figuring out where the truth really is might not be a bad idea.  I haven't gone to that website yet but might take a look.

The truth will be hidden somewhere between what the MSM and its cohorts have been vomiting and what Russia and China have been spitting.

The difficult part is filtering the useful stuff from the trash.

Quoted:



One trick pony here. Just accuse everyone of being a paid shill and you don't have to engage in the argument.

Quoted:

Do you know what OSINT is? When you compile 5 sources of OSINT and they all say the same thing, you can make some reasonable judgements. Nothing I've said is a lie. Just because I'm not going to waste time wading through the archive doesn't make it untrue.

Quoted:

I think that's a pretty fair assessment.