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Posted: 5/12/2017 1:20:08 PM EDT
[#1]
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 The cult of the .30 caliber rifle bullet has set small arms design back decades at least.Quote HistoryQuoted:
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.30 caliber forever!  The cult of the .30 caliber rifle bullet has set small arms design back decades at least.
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Posted: 5/12/2017 1:21:43 PM EDT
[#2]
LOL Chase the tail all the way back to the original platform AR-10 in 7.62x51....
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Posted: 5/12/2017 1:25:58 PM EDT
[#3]
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Both. The juice isn't really worth the squeeze. For most operations we just used SAWs. The only time we took our 240s off the trucks was when we did a raid with not much humping and we used them to provide cordon security on the three points (we did a triangular defense) As is typical with the ETTs, we couldn't find the tripods.  |
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Posted: 5/12/2017 1:28:48 PM EDT
[#4]
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I put a hole in a dude, I have pretty much met 90% of my combat requirements. If I am close up, I keep putting more holes in him. If I am far away, I have slowed him down to the point where I can walk up and put more holes in him. Hunting men isn't entirely equivilent to hunting animals. I don't worry about an "ethical" kill. Simply a legal one. That being said, if you were recalled to active service and deployed you would be issued "hunting bullets" for your M4. Just Sayin. 
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Posted: 5/12/2017 1:32:12 PM EDT
[#5]
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Your opinion is duly noted. That being said, if you were recalled to active service and deployed you would be issued "hunting bullets" for your M4. Just Sayin. 855 did everything I needed. I can't point to a single engagement where I failed because of my bullet. Maybe my scope. 99% just me. |
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Posted: 5/12/2017 1:34:00 PM EDT
[#6]
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LOL. No, they're not. They are light machine guns. I do wish people would stop making up their own definitions. Well, any feasible .338 Norma (or .338 Lapua) machine gun will be so big and heavy that it will almost certainly be used solely for overwatch, so it's just plain silly to talk about a .338 "assault" machine gun. http://i57.fastpic.ru/big/2013/1029/46/7609eed8c97b7a67ff58387c133f1e46.jpg The M249 has been listed as an automatic rifle at times depending on how it's setup. The M249 AR, is an assault machine gun as it was explained to me. As to the .338 I believe the difference is tripod or no tripod. The .338 M240 weighs less than a Bravo and more than a Lima. |
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Posted: 5/12/2017 1:37:53 PM EDT
[#7]
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Then why the hell did we spend all that money on M855A1?! 
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Posted: 5/12/2017 1:51:12 PM EDT
[#8]
They have to keep with the NATO standard. Using the same ammunition as our NATO allies is a big strategic advantage.
We shouldn't switch from the 5.56 AR-type rifle until something really game changing and viable comes around. Like caseless ammunition or laser or something. We shouldn't be looking to redo most of our small arms arsenal just for a different caliber. |
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Posted: 5/12/2017 2:00:24 PM EDT
[#9]
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They have to keep with the NATO standard. Using the same ammunition as our NATO allies is a big strategic advantage. We shouldn't switch from the 5.56 AR-type rifle until something really game changing and viable comes around. Like caseless ammunition or laser or something. We shouldn't be looking to redo most of our small arms arsenal just for a different caliber. |
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Posted: 5/12/2017 2:02:20 PM EDT
[#10]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
They have to keep with the NATO standard. Using the same ammunition as our NATO allies is a big strategic advantage. We shouldn't switch from the 5.56 AR-type rifle until something really game changing and viable comes around. Like caseless ammunition or laser or something. We shouldn't be looking to redo most of our small arms arsenal just for a different caliber. |
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Posted: 5/12/2017 2:02:30 PM EDT
[#11]
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We do use hunting bullets and there is a difference in the wound produced. Marines have the MK318 which is a version of Jack Cater's old Trophy Bonded Bear Claw. JSOC uses Brown Tip which is the Barnes 70gr TSX. M855A1 is a copy of the old Remington Bronze Point with a steel tip. 1. Only the "brown tip" load has a hunting bullet. 2. Mk318 is not a version of TBBC. Mk318 was derived from another bullet, which was derived from the TBBC. Mk318 fragments, with negligible expansion, whereas TBBC expands considerably, forming a classic mushroom.  
3. M855A1 is not a copy of the Bronze Tip. Although external appearance is very similar, construction and functioning are quite different. M855A1 is a lead-free design that breaks apart and fragments, but does not expand. Bronze Tip is a lead-core bullet designed to mushroom.  
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Posted: 5/12/2017 2:14:37 PM EDT
[#12]
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Lol. It's war dude. Do you think any enemy gives a fuck about grievous wounds? Quote HistoryQuoted:
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The prohibition on using hunting bullets in war is not because they "kill humans inhumanely." It's because, when they don't kill, they inflict grievous, difficult-to-treat, often amputating wounds. You (and others) may not give a fuck if the enemy suffers severe wounds, but remember the other side of the coin: If we start using hunting bullets, our future enemies may very well follow suit. Countless US soldiers who were wounded in battle, made a full recovery because they were hit by non-fragmenting, non-expanding, FMJ bullets. Do you really want to change that for the worse? |
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Posted: 5/12/2017 2:29:14 PM EDT
[#13]
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<sigh> Too much misinformation there. 1. Only the "brown tip" load has a hunting bullet. 2. Mk318 is not a version of TBBC. Mk318 was derived from another bullet, which was derived from the TBBC. Mk318 fragments, with negligible expansion, whereas TBBC expands considerably, forming a classic mushroom. http://www.thefirearmblog.com/blog/wp-content/uploads/2015/04/speer4.jpghttp://www.thefirearmblog.com/blog/wp-content/uploads/2015/04/intvw03.jpg 3. M855A1 is not a copy of the Bronze Tip. Although external appearance is very similar, construction and functioning are quite different. M855A1 is a lead-free design that breaks apart and fragments, but does not expand. Bronze Tip is a lead-core bullet designed to mushroom. http://i49.tinypic.com/ubmdj.jpghttps://www.americanrifleman.org/wp-content/uploads/2014/05/compare.jpg Quote HistoryQuoted:
<sigh> Too much misinformation there. 1. Only the "brown tip" load has a hunting bullet. 2. Mk318 is not a version of TBBC. Mk318 was derived from another bullet, which was derived from the TBBC. Mk318 fragments, with negligible expansion, whereas TBBC expands considerably, forming a classic mushroom. http://www.thefirearmblog.com/blog/wp-content/uploads/2015/04/speer4.jpghttp://www.thefirearmblog.com/blog/wp-content/uploads/2015/04/intvw03.jpg 3. M855A1 is not a copy of the Bronze Tip. Although external appearance is very similar, construction and functioning are quite different. M855A1 is a lead-free design that breaks apart and fragments, but does not expand. Bronze Tip is a lead-core bullet designed to mushroom. http://i49.tinypic.com/ubmdj.jpghttps://www.americanrifleman.org/wp-content/uploads/2014/05/compare.jpg Fragmenting is good and a design of military bullets. Quoted:
The prohibition on using hunting bullets in war is not because they "kill humans inhumanely." It's because, when they don't kill, they inflict grievous, difficult-to-treat, often amputating wounds. You (and others) may not give a fuck if the enemy suffers severe wounds, but remember the other side of the coin: If we start using hunting bullets, our future enemies may very well follow suit. Countless US soldiers who were wounded in battle, made a full recovery because they were hit by non-fragmenting, non-expanding, FMJ bullets. Do you really want to change that for the worse? Fragmenting is bad and only hunting bullets fragment. Want to know how I know you don't know much about how bullets work? 
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Posted: 5/12/2017 2:37:40 PM EDT
[#14]
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That's how it was described to me. Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
LOL. No, they're not. They are light machine guns. I do wish people would stop making up their own definitions. Well, any feasible .338 Norma (or .338 Lapua) machine gun will be so big and heavy that it will almost certainly be used solely for overwatch, so it's just plain silly to talk about a .338 "assault" machine gun. http://i57.fastpic.ru/big/2013/1029/46/7609eed8c97b7a67ff58387c133f1e46.jpg The M249 has been listed as an automatic rifle at times depending on how it's setup. 
The M249 AR, is an assault machine gun as it was explained to me. As to the .338 I believe the difference is tripod or no tripod. |
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Posted: 5/12/2017 2:43:09 PM EDT
[#15]
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LOL. Fragmenting is good and a design of military bullets. LOL. Fragmenting is bad and only hunting bullets fragment. Want to know how I know you don't know much about how bullets work? Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
<sigh> Too much misinformation there. 1. Only the "brown tip" load has a hunting bullet. 2. Mk318 is not a version of TBBC. Mk318 was derived from another bullet, which was derived from the TBBC. Mk318 fragments, with negligible expansion, whereas TBBC expands considerably, forming a classic mushroom. http://www.thefirearmblog.com/blog/wp-content/uploads/2015/04/speer4.jpghttp://www.thefirearmblog.com/blog/wp-content/uploads/2015/04/intvw03.jpg 3. M855A1 is not a copy of the Bronze Tip. Although external appearance is very similar, construction and functioning are quite different. M855A1 is a lead-free design that breaks apart and fragments, but does not expand. Bronze Tip is a lead-core bullet designed to mushroom. http://i49.tinypic.com/ubmdj.jpghttps://www.americanrifleman.org/wp-content/uploads/2014/05/compare.jpg Fragmenting is good and a design of military bullets. Quoted:
The prohibition on using hunting bullets in war is not because they "kill humans inhumanely." It's because, when they don't kill, they inflict grievous, difficult-to-treat, often amputating wounds. You (and others) may not give a fuck if the enemy suffers severe wounds, but remember the other side of the coin: If we start using hunting bullets, our future enemies may very well follow suit. Countless US soldiers who were wounded in battle, made a full recovery because they were hit by non-fragmenting, non-expanding, FMJ bullets. Do you really want to change that for the worse? Fragmenting is bad and only hunting bullets fragment. Want to know how I know you don't know much about how bullets work? 
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Posted: 5/12/2017 2:46:11 PM EDT
[#16]
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By whom? I've never seen the M249 listed as an automatic rifle. I think you are confused by the fact that it is used in the automatic rifle role. http://galleryplus.ebayimg.com/ws/web/191883051191_1_0_1.jpg Section V. BASIC GUNNERY, M249 ONLY, AUTOMATIC RIFLE ROLE........... 4-56 Whomever is doing that explaining doesn't know what he's talking about. Shoot, just google "assault machine gun" and see if you can find any US Army or other authoritative source that lists the M249 (or any other machine gun) as an "assault machine gun." . Nvm here just read this. Section V. BASIC GUNNERY, M249 ONLY, AUTOMATIC RIFLE ROLE........... 4-56 M249 Automatic Rifle role. |
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Posted: 5/12/2017 2:50:00 PM EDT
[#17]
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LOL. Since actual and potential enemies like Germany, Italy, Russia, and China not only were signatories to Hague Declaration III, but also comply with it by using non-expanding, non-fragmenting, FMJ bullets, I'd say the answer to your question is "Yes, dude." |
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Posted: 5/12/2017 2:51:18 PM EDT
[#18]
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Why would I care if they do? The advantage to us is worth more than the advantage for them is worth.
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Posted: 5/12/2017 2:52:14 PM EDT
[#19]
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Want to know how I know you have poor reading comprehension?
Every bullet in the 5.56mm we currently issue for combat is a hunting bullet design and designed originally to expand in flesh. |
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Posted: 5/12/2017 2:53:42 PM EDT
[#20]
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.300blk and he done with it The desert wars require a rifle with longer range, not shorter.
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Posted: 5/12/2017 3:14:24 PM EDT
[#21]
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M855A1 is a ball round...Perfectly legal All bullets are legal. |
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Posted: 5/12/2017 3:23:20 PM EDT
[#22]
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The United States is not a signatory to the 1899 restrictions on expanding rifle bullets. All bullets are legal. |
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Posted: 5/12/2017 4:37:38 PM EDT
[#23]
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Google M249 AR. You'll see it labeled as a Automatic Rifle a lot. Nvm here just read this. Section V. BASIC GUNNERY, M249 ONLY, AUTOMATIC RIFLE ROLE........... 4-56 M249 Automatic Rifle role. Quote HistoryQuoted:
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I've never seen the M249 listed as an automatic rifle. I think you are confused by the fact that it is used in the automatic rifle role. http://galleryplus.ebayimg.com/ws/web/191883051191_1_0_1.jpg Whomever is doing that explaining doesn't know what he's talking about. Shoot, just google "assault machine gun" and see if you can find any US Army or other authoritative source that lists the M249 (or any other machine gun) as an "assault machine gun." Nvm here just read this. Section V. BASIC GUNNERY, M249 ONLY, AUTOMATIC RIFLE ROLE........... 4-56 M249 Automatic Rifle role. But, use of the M249 in the role originally performed by the M1918-series Browning automatic rifle doesn't magically transform the M249 from a machine gun to an automatic rifle. As for the field manual (FM 3-22.68) to which you linked, note the title: Crew-Served Machine Guns
5.56-mm and 7.62-mm
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Posted: 5/12/2017 4:39:07 PM EDT
[#24]
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The United States is not a signatory to the 1899 restrictions on expanding rifle bullets. All bullets are legal. |
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Posted: 5/12/2017 4:42:10 PM EDT
[#25]
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Why would I care if they do? Quote HistoryQuoted:
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LOL. Since actual and potential enemies like Germany, Italy, Russia, and China not only were signatories to Hague Declaration III, but also comply with it by using non-expanding, non-fragmenting, FMJ bullets, I'd say the answer to your question is "Yes, dude." |
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Posted: 5/12/2017 4:43:53 PM EDT
[#26]
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The US abides by it because (among other things) the US does not want to open the door to our enemies using weapons that injure by fragments that are non-detectable by X-rays, laser blinding weapons, poison added to bullets, or other "superfluous injury." Check out DoD Directive 2311.01E, DOD Law of War Program, Chapter 6 - Weapons, starting on page 312. http://archive.defense.gov/pubs/Law-of-War-Manual-June-2015.pdf |
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Posted: 5/12/2017 4:50:36 PM EDT
[#27]
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Is it because I never read the book "Everything I know about bullets I read on the Internet"? Quote HistoryQuoted:
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Want to know how I know you have poor reading comprehension?
Every bullet in the 5.56mm we currently issue for combat is a hunting bullet design and designed originally to expand in flesh. 
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Posted: 5/12/2017 4:50:50 PM EDT
[#28]
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Lol. It's war dude. Do you think any enemy gives a fuck about grievous wounds? |
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Posted: 5/12/2017 4:57:01 PM EDT
[#29]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
LOL. Since actual and potential enemies like Germany, Italy, Russia, and China not only were signatories to Hague Declaration III, but also comply with it by using non-expanding, non-fragmenting, FMJ bullets, I'd say the answer to your question is "Yes, dude." Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
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The prohibition on using hunting bullets in war is not because they "kill humans inhumanely." It's because, when they don't kill, they inflict grievous, difficult-to-treat, often amputating wounds. You (and others) may not give a fuck if the enemy suffers severe wounds, but remember the other side of the coin: If we start using hunting bullets, our future enemies may very well follow suit. Countless US soldiers who were wounded in battle, made a full recovery because they were hit by non-fragmenting, non-expanding, FMJ bullets. Do you really want to change that for the worse? |
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Posted: 5/12/2017 5:06:16 PM EDT
[#30]
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Nah. Arguably the greatest advance in small arms design of the 20th century was ~.30 caliber. http://pictures.gunauction.com/7477105011/8233946/517344-2.jpg Then you think about how much better rounds like 7.62x39 and ,30 Carbine would have been with 6-7mm bullets... 
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Posted: 5/12/2017 5:14:36 PM EDT
[#31]
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IIRC, Germany's standard 7.62 MG bullet is famous for its tendency to fragment at the cannelure. Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:
The prohibition on using hunting bullets in war is not because they "kill humans inhumanely." It's because, when they don't kill, they inflict grievous, difficult-to-treat, often amputating wounds. You (and others) may not give a fuck if the enemy suffers severe wounds, but remember the other side of the coin: If we start using hunting bullets, our future enemies may very well follow suit. Countless US soldiers who were wounded in battle, made a full recovery because they were hit by non-fragmenting, non-expanding, FMJ bullets. Do you really want to change that for the worse? 
However, it was reportedly redesigned some years ago, and jacket thickness was increased specifically to minimize or prevent fragmentation. The same thing happened with the British version of 5.56 NATO. The first version fragmented, so it was redesigned and given a thicker jacket. The British went even further with their new 5.56 EP round, which has a one-piece steel core, making fragmentation pretty much impossible. 
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Posted: 5/12/2017 5:15:21 PM EDT
[#32]
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The United States is not a signatory to the 1899 restrictions on expanding rifle bullets. All bullets are legal. 
The US signed the 1899 accord but never ratified it.
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Posted: 5/12/2017 5:30:27 PM EDT
[#33]
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I give up. Why would you? |
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Posted: 5/12/2017 5:32:32 PM EDT
[#34]
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And if the Germans hadn't stupidly spurned the excellent 7x57 round for the 98 instead of the inferior 8mm Mauser round, the Sturmgewehr would likely have been chambered in something like a 7X33, which could easily still be a world-beating cartridge even today. Quote HistoryQuoted:
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Nah. Arguably the greatest advance in small arms design of the 20th century was ~.30 caliber. http://pictures.gunauction.com/7477105011/8233946/517344-2.jpg Then you think about how much better rounds like 7.62x39 and ,30 Carbine would have been with 6-7mm bullets... 
.30 Carbine necked down to 6-7mm, I'm not so sure about. I think I'd rather it stayed at .30 caliber, but COL increased a bit and loaded with a steel- or aluminum-core, streamlined bullet. 
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Posted: 5/12/2017 5:42:54 PM EDT
[#35]
300 BLK
 .....luls, that is real retarded.... Sounds like a good way to get over matched all the fucking time to me..... Jesus.... Go out and actually shoot them past 50 yards.... Like, 450. In the wind.. Ha ha ha.... Fuck that noise.....
How about just go with 75 or 77 grain projectiles? I don't care what anyone says, them things just work, like a fucking champ. Best part, you don't change shit. At all. 75-77 grs, good optics, actually practice, and watch bad guys die all over the damn place. Its that Easy. If there just had to be a caliber change, 6.5 Grendel. But until they get them to work with Pmags, good fucking luck for the military. I'll take Pmags every day of the week and twice on Sunday. Again, Pmags just work, all the goddam time. No bent or broken shit. Just bang bang bang like it's suppose to be. |
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Posted: 5/12/2017 6:47:44 PM EDT
[#36]
I was Spring-cleaning my ammo stash, and found some older Swiss 5.56 with the hard metal jacket designed not to fragment. Just in time for this thread.
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Posted: 5/12/2017 7:07:39 PM EDT
[#37]
6.8 for 11B
6.9 for 0311 4.7 for females. .30 carbine for SOF M/W/F, 5.56 Ackley Improved T/TH.Weekends off. .577 Nitro for snipers. Suppressed revolvers for F35 pilots. |
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Posted: 5/12/2017 7:20:59 PM EDT
[#38]
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It could be, because you're certainly spouting erroneous information.
Nope. You're still wrong. Only the "brown tip" load has a hunting bullet originally designed to expand in flesh. http://i9.photobucket.com/albums/a72/leid/Ammo/86ad0518-408e-41e9-a759-c698b39e474e_zps156f1f02.jpg Quote HistoryQuoted:
It could be, because you're certainly spouting erroneous information.
Nope. You're still wrong. Only the "brown tip" load has a hunting bullet originally designed to expand in flesh. http://i9.photobucket.com/albums/a72/leid/Ammo/86ad0518-408e-41e9-a759-c698b39e474e_zps156f1f02.jpg The Contracting Parties agree to abstain from the use of bullets which expand or flatten easily in the human body, such as bullets with a hard envelope which does not entirely cover the core, or is pierced with incisions. MK262 expands in flesh as designed and is based off a previous hunting bullet and is not compliant with the 1899 declaration. "Brown Tip" expands in flesh as designed and is based off a previous hunting bullet and is not compliant with the 1899 declaration. M855A1 expands in flesh as designed and is based off a previous hunting bullet and is not compliant with the 1899 declaration. All the above loads expand easily in the human body and the original bullet designs were hunting bullets. The Contracting Parties agree to abstain from the use of bullets which expand or flatten easily in the human body, such as bullets with a hard envelope which does not entirely cover the core, or is pierced with incisions. |
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Posted: 5/12/2017 7:23:48 PM EDT
[#39]
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The US abides by it because (among other things) the US does not want to open the door to our enemies using weapons that injure by fragments that are non-detectable by X-rays, laser blinding weapons, poison added to bullets, or other "superfluous injury." Check out DoD Directive 2311.01E, DOD Law of War Program, Chapter 6 - Weapons, starting on page 312. http://archive.defense.gov/pubs/Law-of-War-Manual-June-2015.pdf Quote HistoryQuoted:
The US abides by it because (among other things) the US does not want to open the door to our enemies using weapons that injure by fragments that are non-detectable by X-rays, laser blinding weapons, poison added to bullets, or other "superfluous injury." Check out DoD Directive 2311.01E, DOD Law of War Program, Chapter 6 - Weapons, starting on page 312. http://archive.defense.gov/pubs/Law-of-War-Manual-June-2015.pdf M855A1 unquestionably expands easily in the human body. 1899 Declaration. The Contracting Parties agree to abstain from the use of bullets which expand or flatten easily in the human body, such as bullets with a hard envelope which does not entirely cover the core, or is pierced with incisions. |
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Posted: 5/12/2017 10:31:39 PM EDT
[#40]
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You are just picking pix off the net but it's still never not funny that the pictures don't support your argument. Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
It could be, because you're certainly spouting erroneous information.
Nope. You're still wrong. Only the "brown tip" load has a hunting bullet originally designed to expand in flesh. http://i9.photobucket.com/albums/a72/leid/Ammo/86ad0518-408e-41e9-a759-c698b39e474e_zps156f1f02.jpg
MK318 expands in flesh as designed and is based off a previous hunting bullet and is not compliant with the 1899 declaration.
MK262 expands in flesh as designed and is based off a previous hunting bullet and is not compliant with the 1899 declaration. "Brown Tip" expands in flesh as designed and is based off a previous hunting bullet and is not compliant with the 1899 declaration. M855A1 expands in flesh as designed and is based off a previous hunting bullet and is not compliant with the 1899 declaration. All the above loads expand easily in the human body and the original bullet designs were hunting bullets.
Mk318 fragments in flesh as designed (The nose section peels back and breaks off from the solid base, along with the lead core.), but it does not expand like the TBBC hunting bullet. Mk318 is not based off a previous hunting bullet. It was derived from the TOTM combat bullet (see below), which was derived from the TBBC hunting bullet. Mk318 does "flatten easily" in the human body, which is clearly contrary to Hague Declaration III. 
Mk262 typically does not expand in flesh, it fragments (see below). Mk262 was designed solely for punching holes in paper targets in service rifle matches; it was not designed for expansion or fragmentation. Mk262 was not based off a previous hunting bullet. Mk262 is a fragmenting hollow point bullet, so other NATO armies consider it unlawful. 
"Brown Tip" does expand in flesh as designed. "Brown Tip" is not based off a previous hunting bullet. It is a hunting bullet (a Barnes TSX). "Brown Tip" is clearly in violation of Hague Declaration III. (I can't even imagine what legal gymnastics the JAG engaged in to rule this round legal.) 
M855A1 does not expand in flesh. It fragments, with the steel penetrator, copper slug, and gilding metal jacket breaking apart from each other. (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=d8IvDPuVuho) M855A1 is not based of a previous hunting bullet. M855A1 is a fragmenting bullet with a partial jacket, so other NATO armies consider it unlawful. |
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Posted: 5/12/2017 10:42:53 PM EDT
[#41]
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The US does not abide by it regardless of the press releases from JAG offices. Quote HistoryQuoted:
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The US abides by it because (among other things) the US does not want to open the door to our enemies using weapons that injure by fragments that are non-detectable by X-rays, laser blinding weapons, poison added to bullets, or other "superfluous injury." Check out DoD Directive 2311.01E, DOD Law of War Program, Chapter 6 - Weapons, starting on page 312. http://archive.defense.gov/pubs/Law-of-War-Manual-June-2015.pdf M855A1 unquestionably expands easily in the human body. |
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Posted: 5/13/2017 4:35:18 PM EDT
[#42]
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That last sentence is false, but hey, congratulations! You actually got a few things right this time.
Mk318 fragments in flesh as designed (The nose section peels back and breaks off from the solid base, along with the lead core.), but it does not expand like the TBBC hunting bullet. Mk318 is not based off a previous hunting bullet. It was derived from the TOTM combat bullet (see below), which was derived from the TBBC hunting bullet. Mk318 does "flatten easily" in the human body, which is clearly contrary to Hague Declaration III. http://www.perfectunion.com/vb/attachments/ruger-mini-14-mini-30/16731d1249942598-223-vs-7-62x39-stopper-5.56-77-gr-totm.jpg Mk262 typically does not expand in flesh, it fragments (see below). Mk262 was designed solely for punching holes in paper targets in service rifle matches; it was not designed for expansion or fragmentation. Mk262 was not based off a previous hunting bullet. Mk262 is a fragmenting hollow point bullet, so other NATO armies consider it unlawful. http://www.defensivecarry.com/forum/attachments/defensive-ammunition-ballistics/64901d1354243264-better-defensive-ammo-223-jhp-5-56-nato-green-tip-77grsmk.jpg "Brown Tip" does expand in flesh as designed. "Brown Tip" is not based off a previous hunting bullet. It is a hunting bullet (a Barnes TSX). "Brown Tip" is clearly in violation of Hague Declaration III. (I can't even imagine what legal gymnastics the JAG engaged in to rule this round legal.) http://www.phossil.com/thom/Night%20Vision/Night%20Vision%20Kills/Barnes%2070gr%20TSX.jpg M855A1 does not expand in flesh. It fragments, with the steel penetrator, copper slug, and gilding metal jacket breaking apart from each other. (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=d8IvDPuVuho) M855A1 is not based of a previous hunting bullet. M855A1 is a fragmenting bullet with a partial jacket, so other NATO armies consider it unlawful. Fragmenting is expanding no matter how much derp you choose to spew. Brown Tip is not loaded with the TSX, it is loaded with Open Tip Match/ Solid Copper. MK262 was designed for combat and the HPBT bullet design was originally a hunting bullet. You can keep on jibber jabbering but it won't change the fact that all 5.56mm ammo the .Mil issues for combat is designed to and does expand easily in the human body. |
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Posted: 5/14/2017 5:18:29 AM EDT
[#43]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
I don't have any doubts about what 300 Blackout is. I do have doubts that people who advocate it for general military use know the first thing about what is needed in a dismounted light infantry unit. Quote HistoryQuoted:
I don't have any doubts about what 300 Blackout is. I do have doubts that people who advocate it for general military use know the first thing about what is needed in a dismounted light infantry unit. The .300's big claim to fame is its ability to switch back and forth between a decent super and a very good sub with only a mag swap. That's not enough, and there's a reason that nobody has matched the original German ballistics since the end of WWII. Quoted:
The cartridge will invariably be chambered in the general-issue carbine, designated marksman rifle and LMG. So the replacement will have to do those 3 jobs SUBSTANTIALLY better than 5.56 before we go and replace a round that has been NATO standard for half a century. You don't have to sell a 300 BLK suppressed SBR. You have to sell a 300 BLK belt fed LMG. Remember, S4 doesn't really care if you live or die, as long as their books balance. |
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Posted: 5/14/2017 5:23:10 AM EDT
[#44]
Better in which ways? Corresponding with being worse in which ways?
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Posted: 5/14/2017 6:40:29 AM EDT
[#45]
It will be a 6.5 or 6.8 of some form.
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Posted: 5/15/2017 1:12:11 PM EDT
[#46]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
MK262 was designed for combat and the HPBT bullet design was originally a hunting bullet.
The Mk262 was the Sierra MATCH KING, a match round that has been used for competition for many years. A cannelure was added by military request to help prevent setback so the crimp would lock the bullet in better. If they wanted reliable fragmentation they would have used the Hornady 75gr OTM, which fragments more reliably but isn't as accurate. The SMK is a more accurate bullet, but isn't as a consistent terminal performer (with respects to fragmentation and yaw depth) compared to the Hornady OTM. |
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Posted: 5/15/2017 1:48:11 PM EDT
[#47]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
The Mk262 was the Sierra MATCH KING, a match round that has been used for competition for many years. A cannelure was added by military request to help prevent setback so the crimp would lock the bullet in better. If they wanted reliable fragmentation they would have used the Hornady 75gr OTM, which fragments more reliably but isn't as accurate. The SMK is a more accurate bullet, but isn't as a consistent terminal performer (with respects to fragmentation and yaw depth) compared to the Hornady OTM. |
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Posted: 5/15/2017 6:05:37 PM EDT
[#48]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Mod 0 was a Nosler bullet. |
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Posted: 5/15/2017 8:59:49 PM EDT
[#49]
Use ballistic tip and/or hollow point ammo against combatants that are not signatories of the Hague Convention.
IMHO 5.56/.223 ammo effectiveness will improve dramatically when used something other than FMJ ammo. Ooops. Beat! Happens when you just read the first couple pages of a 6 page thread. 
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Posted: 5/15/2017 9:14:34 PM EDT
[#50]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
The Mk262 was the Sierra MATCH KING, a match round that has been used for competition for many years. A cannelure was added by military request to help prevent setback so the crimp would lock the bullet in better. If they wanted reliable fragmentation they would have used the Hornady 75gr OTM, which fragments more reliably but isn't as accurate. The SMK is a more accurate bullet, but isn't as a consistent terminal performer (with respects to fragmentation and yaw depth) compared to the Hornady OTM. Later most match bullets used the HPBT design because it also produces a very accurate bullet. Hollow Point Boat Tail bullets all evolved from a hunting bullet design. |
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