*SRBs

Atlas V 551 (5 SRBs) has liftoff acceleration in the 2.5G range. The 0 SRB variant takes off at like 1.2Gs.

SRBs can have stupid high thrust, but they have low efficiency (ISP)

SLS' first flight is pushing an Orion capsule and service module out to lunar orbit for testing. Artemis 2 will be a crewed version of that test. Supposedly they are going to go to 280,000 miles which is a good ways past the moon and the furthest a human has ever gone.

The BO/National Team also violated rules of the competition so...



One big thing too... BO still has one rocket system. Theres no reason to choose them as they havent delivered anything to the orbital launch market.

Both Artemis 1/2 will be super exciting to watch.


I just hope Artemis 1 has a fully fleshed out Orion capsule and not some empty hulk.

I wonder if that's why it seems all of a sudden BO is opening the New Shepard for crewed launches. Build trust and some positive PR showing your company can safely get humans into space (not orbit though). Show that Blue Origin IS a player in the space game and should be part of the conversation, and not just because they're backed by the richest man on the planet.

There's definitely some trust and positive PR built by SpaceX launching cargo and crew to the ISS.

Do people really believe that the different versions is SLS will come to be?

Dispensable rs-25s actually being cheaper?

Different cargo configs coming in on time and anywhere near budget?

Redesigned SRBs ever seeing a launch?

They toss around big numbers for never have leaving the ground yet.

I don't know what fleshed out is.

This Orion isn't an empty hulk but... since there are only instrumented dummies on this flight that have no arms there are no switch/controls or instrument panels for them to interface with. The flight computers are there and it will have a bunch of science experiments that will be packed before launch.

SLS might will probably be useful for around ~4-10 flights. They need to just calm down and not spend anymore money.

Most of the PDUs are functional as well

Well most, give er take a channel maybe

They do 27 when they launch a Falcon Heavy.

Core stage for Artemis II is being assembled

Elon Class, duh.

Why go to the moon? Mars or bust. Hopefully the Chinese will start talking about a manned Mars mission and light a fire under NASA.
But seriously what's the point of going back to the moon?

There's a metric fuckton of reasons why. The most obvious one being that as a civilization we haven't landed on another world in decades and many technologies need to be tested first. If something goes awry then it is much easier to try to rescue someone off the moon than to try to rescue them from Mars.

The Martian should not be viewed as or become a documentary.

Also...

Pretty sure spacex would skip the moon because a Lunaship is entirely off the beaten path for mars/earth designed ships.


We are going to the moon because (I’m sorry) NASA human exploration hasn’t done Jack shit new for 20-50 years.

And mars is far far more difficult+ more years away than a moon expedition.


We gotta practice and show the nation that cool shit can happen. That NASA can capture the imagination of the world. Plenty of shit left to do on the moon. M

Plenty of new shit to do, risks to take on the moon and new shit to try out while ‘home’ is only 3 days away. Mars mistakes will be death sentences.

Elon should land a whole crew of women and POC on his own. Just to take that milestone away from NASA.

NASA is beholden to Congress.

Congress is loath to fund anything risky or cool or actually beneficial to humanity.  

So if I were NASA I'd be trying to trick Congress into funding the lift capacity needed to do a bunch of cool stuff by using limited initial political goals as bate.  And like how the JPL rovers on Mars are made for an initial 90 day mission... and then get mission extensions for years... Since we have the capabilities and are already here might as well do these other things now too.

I'm not saying that's what they're actually doing as I don't think there's anyone with enough authority and organizational skill to work around and behind the back of the various NASA administrators that get assigned every 4-8 years...

NASA is already doing that by solely funding starship and saying”fund us more if you want the rest of the swamp in it.”

To build a base and kill fucking commies on the moon. duh.

A whole binders' worth...

Also this is Mars for us right now.


How little experience we have+ how risk averse NASA/congress is + AOC/commie part of congress hate human exploration and American exceptionalism=

Minimum ten years development time. Pork barrel projects because having two competitors is ‘too expensive’, over build every single screw and develop the most conservative underwhelming architecture with the porkiest pork contracts.

We’d get mired down and cancelled 4 years in.



The moon is ‘right’ fucking there. We are a lander away. The die is cast. We bought the groceries. It’s moon or literally bust. They might CANCEL human space flight if we go another ten years doing fuck all on the ISS.


We need some momentum and some organic tech development of real space companies.

Moon base would be good for figuring out how humans/animals/plants adapt to low-G vs. zero G. Zero-G is pretty well understood now.

Didn't he win the contract to do just that?

I think there's a lot to be learned and re-learned in going to the moon that will prep humanity for Mars. I see no problem with some moon trial-runs as long as the focus is getting to Mars.

It wouldn't surprise me if that's why SpaceX is investing in the moon.

Plus if fuel and/or oxidizer can be made on the moon it's could make refueling before leaving for Mars cheaper or easier.

Between NASA and the Space Force, the USA should be spending 1-2% of GDP on space. Go ahead and take it right out of the military budget. Playing "World Police" is a waste of fucking money anyway.

It's the ultimate high ground. It will decide who is the next superpower for the next few centuries (or more).

Currently being protested.

Since they had to go and get all litigious and we have previous experiences like the KC46 contract to work from this probably won't be settled until after a lunar colony is established.

Space force Is so we can invest in spaceships and rockets without congress thinking it’s going to any of that faggy science stuff and that’s still all porkfilled mill/ind complex shit.



‘This is the way’

This kind of pork?

Attached File


Generally I don't like to admit that I once watched Family Guy. But this feels like a necessary evil.

Yup, I know.

Protest aside. The plan has been since the RFP went out for a private company to build and operate the HLS. NASA wasn't looking for someone to build and transfer to them a HLS. Since space x is the only one that can realistically pull it off, the first woke steps on the moon already belong to them.

It's definitely an area of concern and interest. AFRL has an RFI out right now asking for info on cislunar capabilities. DARPA's looking at some things too. NASA's going to put out an acquisition for a variety of communications, PNT, and data services around the moon too.

GAO has 100 days to decide on a protest. If they protest outside the GAO the lengths can vary though. I don't know off the top of my head who is handling the protest(s) though.

Boeing: expanding the envelope

Interesting tidbit in the GAO report on NASA's big programs. Last year NASA had to renegotiate the SLS contract because "Boeing was going to exceed the cost-reimbursement contract's not-to-exceed estimated total cost."

So that's cost-plus-plus?https://t.co/TeBIr2paI7

Eric Berger  (@SciGuySpace) May 20, 2021

Blue Origin's protest:

"It's not fair that the $250,000 semi truck beat our $600,000 motorcycle+sidecar!"

Augustine's Law XXIII: Any task can be completed in only one-third more time than is currently estimated.
Augustine's Law XXV: A revised schedule is to business what a new season is to an athlete or a new canvas to an artist.
Augustine's Law XXVI: If a sufficient number of management layers are superimposed on each other, it can be assured that disaster is not left to chance.

I don't have any faith in SLS.  Did the cost numbers years ago and it has incredibly expensive kg-to-orbit cost and is not useful for the existing commercial space market.

Took a hard pass on working the program.  Sort of surprised it is still going... slightly more practical than the "single stage to orbit" program... but that's not saying much.

SpaceX’s NASA Starship contract safe for now as Blue Origin looks to Congress

"Fresh off of a major contract loss during a competition to build NASA’s next crewed Moon lander, Blue Origin has begun aggressively lobbying Congress for the contract NASA didn’t give it.

Thankfully, albeit not at first, a modification has been made to an amendment first proposed by a Senator that has long pursued favorable treatment of Blue Origin that will prevent that legislation – if it passes – from unfairly interrupting the $2.9 billion contract NASA already awarded SpaceX. Announced on April 16th, that award came as a shock, effectively cementing SpaceX’s lunar Starship as both the cheapest and most technically sound proposal to return humanity to the Moon.

In memos to Congress, SpaceX says a proposed amendment on the HLS contract would award “Jeff Bezos with a $10 billion sole-source hand-out.” Blue Origin responds: “What is Elon Musk afraid of … a little competition?” Inside the lunar lander fight.https://t.co/WfeGTLcZ3w"

Opinion:   Answered by this post:

I was surprised but not shocked that SpaceX won. Dynetics was in the lead as the team to beat for HLS. I wonder how much the Leidos acquisition of Dynetics fucked their final bid pricing and risk though. Blue Origin has absolutely no past performance to show they can even remotely attempt to do something of the scale and complexity of the HLS. While a GAO protest is pretty standard operating procedure for any large/key programs like this the incessant whining and trying to get a sole source by Blue Origin is pretty fucking lame.

Sen. Bernie Sanders is jumping into NASA's lunar lander fiasco with an amendment that deletes the whole human landing system section from the NASA authorization bill

"Purpose: To eliminate the multi-billion dollar Bezos Bailout" pic.twitter.com/cTdVb44E4i

Joey Roulette  (@joroulette) May 24, 2021

Can you tell me how bad venturestar was?

Everything I heard was it was busy being an asshole and Lockheed was ‘this’ close to getting it done.

A close friend of mine worked x-33. The tank design turned into a huge issue. Composite tank wasn't working. They could have used a metal tank and flown easily. That wasn't what the customer wanted. In order to make the requirement for the tank, redesign was required since it wouldn't fit the vehicle and a standoff of who was going to pay for it got the program killed.

Charles DeGaulle once said "Brazil is the country of the future.... and always will be!". Composites are in roughly the same boat, IMHO. I breathed a big sigh of relief when SpaceX chose stainless steel over composites for the BFR.

SSTOs are generally a losing proposition mathematically in Earth's gravity well though.

But see that tells me we really were ‘this’ close to getting a fully reusable crew capable SSTO in the 00’s. That would have been cool.


Also in the spacex Reddit’s I mentioned that Bernie was a commie and got downvote nuked like crazy.

I can think of two good reasons:

1)  We have to build (or re-build) the infrastructure both in terms of industry and talent to support a Mars mission.  If we really want to do more than just plant a flag on Mars, then we need to build a true Space Industrial Complex and those costs have to be endemic to the Federal budget in the same way that our military is.  Establishing a permanent presence on the moon and getting good at making regular round trips serves that goal.  You need kids in high school today to start being sucked in to career paths to that end so that 10-15 years from now, we have talent pool available to support going to Mars.  You need companies to recognize that there may be an ongoing several hundred billion dollar market in space to encourage them to make the investments in plants, property and equipment.  Kind of like what SpaceX is doing now in Texas on their own dime but taken ALL the way down the supply chain.  SpaceX may be forward looking but most companies need dollars and goals dangled out in front of them to start making those investments.

All of the industry, people, and technology that gets developed to support a permanent presence on the moon will ultimately only make a Mars mission more robust.

2)  It's a national security issue and ultra long term cultural priority.  As far as I know, there will only ever be one moon in orbit around Earth and there may only be one chance to establish a first mover advantage.  I know this is far out and it may be difficult to rationalize any benefits of devoting a permanent presence to the moon BUT I am also aware from history that both the Louisiana purchase and buying Alaska from Russia were considered follies at the time in certain circles.

I'd rather we move in the direction of owning that rock first and then having the luxury of deciding it's importance later.  Nothing says ownership quite like possession not matter what "official" treaties dictate.




I'd be happy to be wrong, but it is my opinion that most people greatly underestimate the timeline to get to Mars and what it will take.  I honestly think we won't see boots on the ground on Mars until long after going to the Moon is routine, Earth launches are damn near daily, and the ISS is a quaint obsolete structure in orbit compared to newer larger stations that are built with a reliance on super heavy launch vehicles like Starship or SLS.

EUS is being built so..