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Posted: 5/7/2021 7:14:51 AM EDT
[#1]
Yes, silly young chics who rent their home, don't have a place to charge, or own a second vehicle, and make poor financial and political decisions based on poor and unrealistic information are likely to regret a major purchase based on unrealistic desires and incomplete analysis of their situation.
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Posted: 5/7/2021 7:16:07 AM EDT
[#2]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Youre discounting on site charging. One of my attorneys tells me he's never charged anywhere but his work, home or hotel - mostly work. Couple other owners I know indicate similar. Vast majority of travel for most peeps ends somewhere they can charge. I drive a lot. Even when busiest I can't recall packing in more than 200. Attorney points out he starts almost every drive with 300+ worst case. Only need supplemental when traveling or if one of your "bases" lack charging. I'd hate to hunt for a charger. plug in every time I stop. But talking with lots of EV owners (almost all Tesla) - it's really not much of a change for them. Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: That part already exists. Tesla Superchargers charge that fast. OK fine, but we need as many of them as we have gas stations today. . Now, is there infrastructure available so two dozen people can be doing it simultaneously like at the local WaWa? Youre discounting on site charging. One of my attorneys tells me he's never charged anywhere but his work, home or hotel - mostly work. Couple other owners I know indicate similar. Vast majority of travel for most peeps ends somewhere they can charge. I drive a lot. Even when busiest I can't recall packing in more than 200. Attorney points out he starts almost every drive with 300+ worst case. Only need supplemental when traveling or if one of your "bases" lack charging. I'd hate to hunt for a charger. plug in every time I stop. But talking with lots of EV owners (almost all Tesla) - it's really not much of a change for them. How many are white collar professionals?  How many work for SMEs* which aren't startups etc? *older businesses and/or ones with owners who aren't into EVs |
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Posted: 5/7/2021 7:17:41 AM EDT
[#3]
Quote HistoryQuoted: I would say significantly more. Can a Tesla supercharger go from zero to full in 10 min? Because a 16gal Honda accord can easily counting pulling in, paying, etc. Now, is there infrastructure available so two dozen people can be doing it simultaneously like at the local WaWa? Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: Quoted: That part already exists. Tesla Superchargers charge that fast. OK fine, but we need as many of them as we have gas stations today. . Now, is there infrastructure available so two dozen people can be doing it simultaneously like at the local WaWa? This is what it's been hard for me to wrap my head around. Unlike petrol, for most, you top off at least every day. For most of us, you'd never need to go to a charging station. You charge wherever your park. You start with 3-400 miles at least every morning your at "home" but for some you have options at work too. Around here many. The only time you need to hit a charging station is when you travel more than your start reserve. |
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Posted: 5/7/2021 7:18:05 AM EDT
[#4]
I bought a Volvo EV this year. I bought it knowing the range sucked, and I installed a 220 50A at work, and am having one installed at home next week to the cost of $2300 with the charger. I bought it specifically for in town driving, as I rarely get more than 20 miles from home. I have been charging on a 110 at home and keeping it fully charged. I took a road trip this week where I had to charge twice on the way there and on the way back. It was a giant pain in the ass. In town- Great. Long distances- Sucked. My diesel Mercedes is almost dead (leaking oil, filter clogged), and I need to buy another ICE ASAP.
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Posted: 5/7/2021 7:20:49 AM EDT
[#5]
Quote HistoryQuoted: This is what it's been hard for me to wrap my head around. Unlike petrol, for most, you top off at least every day. For most of us, you'd never need to go to a charging station. You charge wherever your park. You start with 3-400 miles at least every morning your at "home" but for some you have options at work too. Around here many. The only time you need to hit a charging station is when you travel more than your start reserve. |
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Posted: 5/7/2021 7:26:58 AM EDT
[#6]
Quote HistoryQuoted: don't forget townhouses etc limited to street parking I live in a gentrifying 'hood where older bungalows are being replaced, mostly by duplexes. The majority of those have at least one vehicle parked in front. The majority of the duplexes don't have a garage, let alone a 2-car garage. Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: Hardly anyone thinks about apartments. About a third of the country live in rentals. 70% in complex's less than 20 units. In the last decade there's been @ 2 million new multi family units built. There's a total of 43 million rental households in the US. There's a number of challenges dealing with this - even in the most recent round of development, tho some areas have dealt with multi fam charging infrastructure - through market or requirements. There's solutions in play - some turn key fee based outfits that will retro exist, but it's going to be a choke point for a lot of people. Some of this might get pushed employer side or fixed by reduced charging times (most early chargers installed are going obsolete) - but near term It's dicey in multifam for EV owners. Which means opportunities. don't forget townhouses etc limited to street parking I live in a gentrifying 'hood where older bungalows are being replaced, mostly by duplexes. The majority of those have at least one vehicle parked in front. The majority of the duplexes don't have a garage, let alone a 2-car garage. Entirely true. Urban areas and anywhere with street parking create more issues. I deal mostly with suburban Midwest multifam markets so that's what I key in on. Im sure there's a lot of living situations where you'll hafta depend on off site/station charging - municipalities I deal with are considering much, but mostly requiring private investment in new development. There's a few Tesla stations near me - most lunches you see lots of utilization, more than I'd think for people traveling. But near some major interstates so perhaps. |
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Posted: 5/7/2021 7:33:04 AM EDT
[#7]
I guess they wouldn't have had the angle they wanted if the title was "80% of EV owners said they would stay with the design."
And, for on-street parking? Giant Qi chargers under the parking spots. 
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Posted: 5/7/2021 7:37:03 AM EDT
[#8]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Lol, no they don't. A simple Google search says 30-40 minutes gets you to 80% capacity. Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: That part already exists. Tesla Superchargers charge that fast. I am starting to take his posts on n this subject with a grain of salt. I wonder if he works in the industry. |
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Posted: 5/7/2021 7:44:21 AM EDT
[#9]
Color me shocked...
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Posted: 5/7/2021 7:46:23 AM EDT
[#10]
Quote HistoryQuoted: ^^ Yep, that's (one of) the big Achilles heel of electric cars -- PARKING infrastructure. Don't get me wrong, the technology is great -- I love the instantaneous torque. But the parking infrastructure is a massive dagger in the heart of widespread EV adoption in the US, and you can't fix the antiquated parking limitations in America's city areas quickly. I have said this before -- one of the biggest lies is that EVs work great for people in cities. The reality is that EVs do not work with the current urban parking situation and that applies to the vast majority of people in the United States. Until the technology makes charging as fast as gassing up a ICE vehicle, it won't work. Consider that the last US Census noted that close to 70% of the United States population was in an urban area. This means urban parking is a problem for a great majority of Americans. Say you're lower class. You live in a high-rise apartment or rowhome in a poor area. Your only parking is on the street. Middle class? You live in a high-rise apartment or rowhome in a decent area. No free parking here either, so you either park on the street or shell out hundreds of dollars to park in shared indoor parking. In my area of downtown Philadelphia, shared indoor parking is $225/mo at minimum, and very few have any charging stations at all. The one that has a charging station near me is not free. Upper class? You live in a high-rise condo/apartment in a very good area. OK, now you have a real chance of having a charger in your (shared) indoor garage. You have a reserved spot but you may not have a charger in every spot. But how many people fall into the upper class? Very few ... and that means very few people have access to proper charging (due to parking, not electrical infrastructure). Now that's just where you live. What about where you work? In ALL cases, chances are you can't charge at work. Office buildings in the big cities often do not offer ANY parking, even if you want to pay for it! Maybe you're lucky and your office (if you work in an office) has an indoor parking lot where you can buy a monthly pass. The reality is that you're stuck finding street parking or using a commercial lot -- which puts you back in the situation of no chargers. You want to put chargers on the street for public use? You think the copper theft problem NOW is bad? Wait until you put lots of nice copper laden chargers on every urban street!  Speaking of crime in cities, which is rapidly increasing, no sane individual wants to immobilize their car for even 20-30 minutes to get a decent fast charge if you're in an urban area. How many of you have related stories about being accosted by a panhandler at a gas station in the short time that you need to fuel up an ICE vehicle? Why would anyone want to stay longer in such a targeted environment? You want to pay at the pump, gas up and get the hell back on the road. We've ruled out EVs for city dwellers. What about deep rural folks (like where I grew up)? They won't adopt EVs due to range concerns. So we've ruled out EVs for city people and rural folks. The reality is that pure EVs only work for the suburbs, where folks have real garages so they can charge at home but are close enough to work that they don't need to charge at work. With 70% of the population in the US being "urban", it just doesn't apply to most people. To be clear, the technology will catch up. Eventually we will go back, full circle, to where we are today -- "gas stations" will be replaced by "EV stations", where you can charge in 5 minutes for 200-300 miles of juice. However, those sorts of huge infrastructure changes will happen at a much slower pace than most EV proponents realize. Until that time, EVs are limited to the small segment of society that have garages in the suburbs -- i.e., not much of America. You really aren’t good with statistics are you? Go invert the headline, here let me do it for you. Original: 1 in five ditch their electric cars for gas. Inverted: four out of five prefer their electric over gas. Bonus points, which statement is the most factual and least biased? |
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Posted: 5/7/2021 7:52:42 AM EDT
[#11]
Quote HistoryQuoted: I think a big point of this thread is the large amount of the population that can't just plug it in where they park. Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: This is what it's been hard for me to wrap my head around. Unlike petrol, for most, you top off at least every day. For most of us, you'd never need to go to a charging station. You charge wherever your park. You start with 3-400 miles at least every morning your at "home" but for some you have options at work too. Around here many. The only time you need to hit a charging station is when you travel more than your start reserve. 60-70% of Americans own their homes - little more than 80% of owned homes (or 70% in West/Midwest in other data) have garages or carports (had to check that) so little more than half of the US would have some options there. From a couple reports, just less than 40% of rentals nationally have garages. Seems high to me but lot of houses rent. so there's another roughly 10%. Rough cocktail napkin estimate - 60% have a garage or carport, some percentage have some "off street" parking, and a very small percentage have no vehicle at all. So let figure a third of folx don't have the ability to home charge, but some would at work. Let's go with an entirely arbitrarily figure, say that 8% - just a pulled from ass. With 100% adoption on the "available" side, some public parking installations and multifam open lot chargers, you'd still reduce the need for "off site" fill ups - mostly now fulfilled by petrol stations, by 80%. But yea that leaves at best 20% needing some kind of station charging to meet needs. And adoption won't be 100%. In many cases, for many years, lot of us will drive ICE's. Mostly due to preference I bet. I'm on no side but money here. |
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Posted: 5/7/2021 7:56:24 AM EDT
[#12]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Lol, no they don't. A simple Google search says 30-40 minutes gets you to 80% capacity. Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: That part already exists. Tesla Superchargers charge that fast. Lol, I don't need a Google search. I own a Tesla and it absolutely can charge 50 miles of range in 5 minutes on the latest Superchargers. |
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Posted: 5/7/2021 8:04:03 AM EDT
[#13]
Quote HistoryQuoted: I am starting to take his posts on n this subject with a grain of salt. I wonder if he works in the industry. Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: Quoted: That part already exists. Tesla Superchargers charge that fast. I am starting to take his posts on n this subject with a grain of salt. I wonder if he works in the industry. I own a Tesla. I don't know why 50 miles of range in 5 minutes is such a difficult to believe claim when the latest Superchargers peak at 250kw or 1000 miles of range per hour at peak. They don't charge at peak through the entire cycle but they will give you 50 miles in 5 minutes which is what the post I quoted stated. |
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Posted: 5/7/2021 8:05:04 AM EDT
[#14]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Gas only. Lithium mining is cancer to the planet. It is all a liberal feel good failure to achieve the stated goal. Yup. EV's are fucking gay and I will never own one. |
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Posted: 5/7/2021 8:10:02 AM EDT
[#15]
Quote HistoryQuoted: 60-70% of Americans own their homes - little more than 80% of owned homes (or 70% in West/Midwest in other data) have garages or carports (had to check that) so little more than half of the US would have some options there. From a couple reports, just less than 40% of rentals nationally have garages. Seems high to me but lot of houses rent. so there's another roughly 10%. Rough cocktail napkin estimate - 60% have a garage or carport, some percentage have some "off street" parking, and a very small percentage have no vehicle at all. So let figure a third of folx don't have the ability to home charge, but some would at work. Let's go with an entirely arbitrarily figure, say that 8% - just a pulled from ass. With 100% adoption on the "available" side, some public parking installations and multifam open lot chargers, you'd still reduce the need for "off site" fill ups - mostly now fulfilled by petrol stations, by 80%. But yea that leaves at best 20% needing some kind of station charging to meet needs. And adoption won't be 100%. In many cases, for many years, lot of us will drive ICE's. Mostly due to preference I bet. I'm on no side but money here. Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: Quoted: This is what it's been hard for me to wrap my head around. Unlike petrol, for most, you top off at least every day. For most of us, you'd never need to go to a charging station. You charge wherever your park. You start with 3-400 miles at least every morning your at "home" but for some you have options at work too. Around here many. The only time you need to hit a charging station is when you travel more than your start reserve. 60-70% of Americans own their homes - little more than 80% of owned homes (or 70% in West/Midwest in other data) have garages or carports (had to check that) so little more than half of the US would have some options there. From a couple reports, just less than 40% of rentals nationally have garages. Seems high to me but lot of houses rent. so there's another roughly 10%. Rough cocktail napkin estimate - 60% have a garage or carport, some percentage have some "off street" parking, and a very small percentage have no vehicle at all. So let figure a third of folx don't have the ability to home charge, but some would at work. Let's go with an entirely arbitrarily figure, say that 8% - just a pulled from ass. With 100% adoption on the "available" side, some public parking installations and multifam open lot chargers, you'd still reduce the need for "off site" fill ups - mostly now fulfilled by petrol stations, by 80%. But yea that leaves at best 20% needing some kind of station charging to meet needs. And adoption won't be 100%. In many cases, for many years, lot of us will drive ICE's. Mostly due to preference I bet. I'm on no side but money here. Yep, cash is king, too many are thinking of non universal problems (street parking) and applying it universally. Fact is if it’s cheaper and works, those people will adopt the new electrics. It’s not going to be a instant universal switch over, and most states aren’t going to be so ducking stupid as to mandate universal adoption. Thing is electrics are getting better with every generation of vehicles. Predictably better. tesla’s Next gen car is going to be in the mid 20’s with better batteries, I can’t say much about the crystal chemistry, but I do know with their new tabless battery design solves a lot of the thermal limits in fast charging and discharging. |
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Posted: 5/7/2021 8:13:50 AM EDT
[#16]
Well, Tesla should have wireless charging because that's what he was working on.
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Posted: 5/7/2021 8:15:32 AM EDT
[#17]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Hard to revolt and move on .gov if the national guard is called out to seize gas stations. It's a jerk off fantasy that EVs are part of some grand plan to suppress and control the populace. If they wanted to do that, they wouldn't have to go through nearly the trouble. COVID-19 already proved what they can get people to do merely by decree, fear, and propaganda. Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: Quoted: Gas only. Lithium mining is cancer to the planet. It is all a liberal feel good failure to achieve the stated goal. The left is trying to limit our range and freedom of movement. Hard to revolt and move on .gov if you only “fill up” in 4 or 5 hours. Hard to revolt and move on .gov if the national guard is called out to seize gas stations. It's a jerk off fantasy that EVs are part of some grand plan to suppress and control the populace. If they wanted to do that, they wouldn't have to go through nearly the trouble. COVID-19 already proved what they can get people to do merely by decree, fear, and propaganda. There aren’t enough California, Illinois, New York “national guard” to seize all of gas stations and truck stops in Texas, Idaho, Kansas... Moreover, you can’t bring that trailer or tanker full of electrical charge with you. How many “national guard” does it take to shut down the grid? |
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Posted: 5/7/2021 8:16:33 AM EDT
[#18]
Quote HistoryQuoted: 60-70% of Americans own their homes - little more than 80% of owned homes (or 70% in West/Midwest in other data) have garages or carports (had to check that) so little more than half of the US would have some options there. From a couple reports, just less than 40% of rentals nationally have garages. Seems high to me but lot of houses rent. so there's another roughly 10%. Rough cocktail napkin estimate - 60% have a garage or carport, some percentage have some "off street" parking, and a very small percentage have no vehicle at all. So let figure a third of folx don't have the ability to home charge, but some would at work. Let's go with an entirely arbitrarily figure, say that 8% - just a pulled from ass. With 100% adoption on the "available" side, some public parking installations and multifam open lot chargers, you'd still reduce the need for "off site" fill ups - mostly now fulfilled by petrol stations, by 80%. But yea that leaves at best 20% needing some kind of station charging to meet needs. And adoption won't be 100%. In many cases, for many years, lot of us will drive ICE's. Mostly due to preference I bet. I'm on no side but money here. Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: Quoted: This is what it's been hard for me to wrap my head around. Unlike petrol, for most, you top off at least every day. For most of us, you'd never need to go to a charging station. You charge wherever your park. You start with 3-400 miles at least every morning your at "home" but for some you have options at work too. Around here many. The only time you need to hit a charging station is when you travel more than your start reserve. 60-70% of Americans own their homes - little more than 80% of owned homes (or 70% in West/Midwest in other data) have garages or carports (had to check that) so little more than half of the US would have some options there. From a couple reports, just less than 40% of rentals nationally have garages. Seems high to me but lot of houses rent. so there's another roughly 10%. Rough cocktail napkin estimate - 60% have a garage or carport, some percentage have some "off street" parking, and a very small percentage have no vehicle at all. So let figure a third of folx don't have the ability to home charge, but some would at work. Let's go with an entirely arbitrarily figure, say that 8% - just a pulled from ass. With 100% adoption on the "available" side, some public parking installations and multifam open lot chargers, you'd still reduce the need for "off site" fill ups - mostly now fulfilled by petrol stations, by 80%. But yea that leaves at best 20% needing some kind of station charging to meet needs. And adoption won't be 100%. In many cases, for many years, lot of us will drive ICE's. Mostly due to preference I bet. I'm on no side but money here. But yea that leaves at best 20% needing some kind of station charging to meet needs. And adoption won't be 100%. In many cases, for many years, lot of us will drive ICE's. Mostly due to preference I bet. don't forget the hordes of poors! inb4 landlords are forced to provide charging infrastructure for their tenants |
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Posted: 5/7/2021 8:16:56 AM EDT
[#19]
Quote HistoryQuoted: I own a Tesla. I don't know why 50 miles of range in 5 minutes is such a difficult to believe claim when the latest Superchargers peak at 250kw or 1000 miles of range per hour at peak. They don't charge at peak through the entire cycle but they will give you 50 miles in 5 minutes which is what the post I quoted stated. Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: That part already exists. Tesla Superchargers charge that fast. I am starting to take his posts on n this subject with a grain of salt. I wonder if he works in the industry. I own a Tesla. I don't know why 50 miles of range in 5 minutes is such a difficult to believe claim when the latest Superchargers peak at 250kw or 1000 miles of range per hour at peak. They don't charge at peak through the entire cycle but they will give you 50 miles in 5 minutes which is what the post I quoted stated. People replicate ingrained behaviors, even in conceptualization. We tend to think about how we've done things for long periods an apply that to future thought. So "partially" filling isn't tolerable, tho in most cases it more than sufficient. Especially with the reflexive response to changes in emotional attachments - like cars. Peeps expect you'd replicate behaviors with EVs as most do now - periodic cycles of full to empty resulting in weekly or so stops to fill the reservoir. EVs don't and won't need to work like that. Took me a bit and lots of conversations to wrap my head around it. |
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Posted: 5/7/2021 8:18:43 AM EDT
[#20]
Quote HistoryQuoted: If it's the Left you're afraid of in this respect, don't forget that they're the ones pushing to eliminate fossil fuels entirely. That means they will be forced to update the electrical infrastructure anyway, in order to heat all the homes and office buildings using oil and natural gas today. I haven't done any research on this, but I'd guess the extra load presented by charging EV's would not be significant compared to the heating load. . Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: Hint, hint. Get used to being discouraged in ownership of cars. Cities will drag their feet on installing publicly available charging stations or allowing them to be installed by individuals. Only corporate stations will be allowed (with the proper grease in the wheels of the bureaucracy) and will be taxed to the limit of endurance. Live outside the city? Welcome to double the cost of transportation, since electrical infrastructure will not be allowed to expand at the required rates so you will have to have at least two vehicles and/or a large battery bank along with solar panels. Once more than 10% have those installed the city will change ordinances and make you pay a premium to be allowed to keep them (solar panels are unsightly and that battery bank is DANGEROUS!!). If it's the Left you're afraid of in this respect, don't forget that they're the ones pushing to eliminate fossil fuels entirely. That means they will be forced to update the electrical infrastructure anyway, in order to heat all the homes and office buildings using oil and natural gas today. I haven't done any research on this, but I'd guess the extra load presented by charging EV's would not be significant compared to the heating load. . Watch for the "wear a sweater", and then, a coat campaigns, and, "no one needs summer air conditioning, refrigerants are outlawed". The Energy Information Agency no doubt had exactly the data needed to compare. . |
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Posted: 5/7/2021 8:19:28 AM EDT
[#21]
Darn the Exploding Batteries. Full EV ahead.
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Posted: 5/7/2021 8:22:34 AM EDT
[#22]
Quote HistoryQuoted: What do people do in the city where there is only street parking? You can't run a cord across the sidewalk Public charging stations are not plentiful and are sparsely laid out. That, combined with the relatively long charging time, makes it impractical to stop by on the way to work to "fill up". We really need 5 minute charging times to make these vehicles sell. They don't have to fully charge in 5 minutes, but at least give me 50 miles of range in that time. . Nope. It's a Trip hazard. Lawyers would Love to sue the owners. 
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Posted: 5/7/2021 8:25:45 AM EDT
[#23]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Actually Electric is better. Price will come down as they are produced more. You hope. That assumes tech advances and cost per unit reduction caused my mass production. The problems with that is that Tech advances don't always occur and Liberals hate big businesses.
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Posted: 5/7/2021 8:26:01 AM EDT
[#24]
Quote HistoryQuoted: But yea that leaves at best 20% needing some kind of station charging to meet needs. And adoption won't be 100%. In many cases, for many years, lot of us will drive ICE's. Mostly due to preference I bet. don't forget the hordes of poors! inb4 landlords are forced to provide charging infrastructure for their tenants Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: This is what it's been hard for me to wrap my head around. Unlike petrol, for most, you top off at least every day. For most of us, you'd never need to go to a charging station. You charge wherever your park. You start with 3-400 miles at least every morning your at "home" but for some you have options at work too. Around here many. The only time you need to hit a charging station is when you travel more than your start reserve. 60-70% of Americans own their homes - little more than 80% of owned homes (or 70% in West/Midwest in other data) have garages or carports (had to check that) so little more than half of the US would have some options there. From a couple reports, just less than 40% of rentals nationally have garages. Seems high to me but lot of houses rent. so there's another roughly 10%. Rough cocktail napkin estimate - 60% have a garage or carport, some percentage have some "off street" parking, and a very small percentage have no vehicle at all. So let figure a third of folx don't have the ability to home charge, but some would at work. Let's go with an entirely arbitrarily figure, say that 8% - just a pulled from ass. With 100% adoption on the "available" side, some public parking installations and multifam open lot chargers, you'd still reduce the need for "off site" fill ups - mostly now fulfilled by petrol stations, by 80%. But yea that leaves at best 20% needing some kind of station charging to meet needs. And adoption won't be 100%. In many cases, for many years, lot of us will drive ICE's. Mostly due to preference I bet. I'm on no side but money here. But yea that leaves at best 20% needing some kind of station charging to meet needs. And adoption won't be 100%. In many cases, for many years, lot of us will drive ICE's. Mostly due to preference I bet. don't forget the hordes of poors! inb4 landlords are forced to provide charging infrastructure for their tenants You missed where I mentioned that's mostly how many areas are dealing with this. Nothing yet in the markets I operate (I'm a landlord at the most basic) - but much discussion has been had on this. Mostly in commercial applications. I still think the market will make it very uncompetitive to NOT deal with this as a developer in some way. But I can also see it becoming requirements of zoning and approval in most areas. I'll get back to some specifics on what's in t t the reg pipeline if I get time later. |
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Posted: 5/7/2021 8:27:46 AM EDT
[#25]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Gas only. Lithium mining is cancer to the planet. It is all a liberal feel good failure to achieve the stated goal. The tide is shifting on that front. The New York Times published an article about the environmental impact of lithium mining this morning. It focuses on a site near the Salton Sea in southern California, and on one in Nevada that is being opposed by a Native American tribe. |
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Posted: 5/7/2021 8:28:42 AM EDT
[#26]
My son's x-room mate bought a Tesla. $80,000 car, he makes $85,000 a year salary. Lives in a rented duplex. No garage.
He saw the breaker box that had 240 volt with 2 x30 amp circuit breakers and thought he had a 60 amp 240 volt breaker outlet for the drier. He didn't, he had a 30 amp 240 volt circuit for the drier. then he went to buy a 75 foot extension chord to run out side that was good for 30 amp and 240 volt and came face to face with physics and the cost of big copper wire. So he charges it every night with a 120 volt 15 amp circuit and extension chord. he adds a few miles per night charge. Enough to get him to his work place which has 2 charging stations for thousands of employees. The Tesla is his only vehicle. There are no other charging stations anywhere near where he lives. |
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Posted: 5/7/2021 8:29:00 AM EDT
[#27]
LOL. This thread will deliver.
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Posted: 5/7/2021 8:31:39 AM EDT
[#28]
Quote HistoryQuoted: People replicate ingrained behaviors, even in conceptualization. We tend to think about how we've done things for long periods an apply that to future thought. So "partially" filling isn't tolerable, tho in most cases it more than sufficient. Especially with the reflexive response to changes in emotional attachments - like cars. Peeps expect you'd replicate behaviors with EVs as most do now - periodic cycles of full to empty resulting in weekly or so stops to fill the reservoir. EVs don't and won't need to work like that. Took me a bit and lots of conversations to wrap my head around it. |
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Posted: 5/7/2021 8:34:43 AM EDT
[#29]
Quote HistoryQuoted: You really aren’t good with statistics are you? Go invert the headline, here let me do it for you. Original: 1 in five ditch their electric cars for gas. Inverted: four out of five prefer their electric over gas. Bonus points, which statement is the most factual and least biased? Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: ^^ Yep, that's (one of) the big Achilles heel of electric cars -- PARKING infrastructure. Don't get me wrong, the technology is great -- I love the instantaneous torque. But the parking infrastructure is a massive dagger in the heart of widespread EV adoption in the US, and you can't fix the antiquated parking limitations in America's city areas quickly. I have said this before -- one of the biggest lies is that EVs work great for people in cities. The reality is that EVs do not work with the current urban parking situation and that applies to the vast majority of people in the United States. Until the technology makes charging as fast as gassing up a ICE vehicle, it won't work. Consider that the last US Census noted that close to 70% of the United States population was in an urban area. This means urban parking is a problem for a great majority of Americans. Say you're lower class. You live in a high-rise apartment or rowhome in a poor area. Your only parking is on the street. Middle class? You live in a high-rise apartment or rowhome in a decent area. No free parking here either, so you either park on the street or shell out hundreds of dollars to park in shared indoor parking. In my area of downtown Philadelphia, shared indoor parking is $225/mo at minimum, and very few have any charging stations at all. The one that has a charging station near me is not free. Upper class? You live in a high-rise condo/apartment in a very good area. OK, now you have a real chance of having a charger in your (shared) indoor garage. You have a reserved spot but you may not have a charger in every spot. But how many people fall into the upper class? Very few ... and that means very few people have access to proper charging (due to parking, not electrical infrastructure). Now that's just where you live. What about where you work? In ALL cases, chances are you can't charge at work. Office buildings in the big cities often do not offer ANY parking, even if you want to pay for it! Maybe you're lucky and your office (if you work in an office) has an indoor parking lot where you can buy a monthly pass. The reality is that you're stuck finding street parking or using a commercial lot -- which puts you back in the situation of no chargers. You want to put chargers on the street for public use? You think the copper theft problem NOW is bad? Wait until you put lots of nice copper laden chargers on every urban street! Speaking of crime in cities, which is rapidly increasing, no sane individual wants to immobilize their car for even 20-30 minutes to get a decent fast charge if you're in an urban area. How many of you have related stories about being accosted by a panhandler at a gas station in the short time that you need to fuel up an ICE vehicle? Why would anyone want to stay longer in such a targeted environment? You want to pay at the pump, gas up and get the hell back on the road. We've ruled out EVs for city dwellers. What about deep rural folks (like where I grew up)? They won't adopt EVs due to range concerns. So we've ruled out EVs for city people and rural folks. The reality is that pure EVs only work for the suburbs, where folks have real garages so they can charge at home but are close enough to work that they don't need to charge at work. With 70% of the population in the US being "urban", it just doesn't apply to most people. To be clear, the technology will catch up. Eventually we will go back, full circle, to where we are today -- "gas stations" will be replaced by "EV stations", where you can charge in 5 minutes for 200-300 miles of juice. However, those sorts of huge infrastructure changes will happen at a much slower pace than most EV proponents realize. Until that time, EVs are limited to the small segment of society that have garages in the suburbs -- i.e., not much of America. You really aren’t good with statistics are you? Go invert the headline, here let me do it for you. Original: 1 in five ditch their electric cars for gas. Inverted: four out of five prefer their electric over gas. Bonus points, which statement is the most factual and least biased? Just becuase they don't ditch their electric vehicle doesn't men they prefer it. 20% get rid of it 80% don't, but if you factor in an increasing rate of sale, many that have them are still new to them and the rate of ditching them may eventually go up if you factor in having it for the same amount of time. |
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Posted: 5/7/2021 8:36:24 AM EDT
[#30]
Quote HistoryQuoted: And at what long term cost? Fast charging reduces battery life, and you don't get infinite charge cycles. Or so I've been instructed on every lithium powered product I own. Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: Quoted: That part already exists. Tesla Superchargers charge that fast. And at what long term cost? Fast charging reduces battery life, and you don't get infinite charge cycles. Or so I've been instructed on every lithium powered product I own. Good thing your ICE has an infinite lifespan. |
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Posted: 5/7/2021 8:39:11 AM EDT
[#31]
Tesla's are awesome, I know because I've been driving one since 2013 and love it. OP is probably a butt hurt Hellcat driver.
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Posted: 5/7/2021 8:41:45 AM EDT
[#32]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Just becuase they don't ditch their electric vehicle doesn't men they prefer it. 20% get rid of it 80% don't, but if you factor in an increasing rate of sale, many that have them are still new to them and the rate of ditching them may eventually go up if you factor in having it for the same amount of time. Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: Quoted: ^^ Yep, that's (one of) the big Achilles heel of electric cars -- PARKING infrastructure. Don't get me wrong, the technology is great -- I love the instantaneous torque. But the parking infrastructure is a massive dagger in the heart of widespread EV adoption in the US, and you can't fix the antiquated parking limitations in America's city areas quickly. I have said this before -- one of the biggest lies is that EVs work great for people in cities. The reality is that EVs do not work with the current urban parking situation and that applies to the vast majority of people in the United States. Until the technology makes charging as fast as gassing up a ICE vehicle, it won't work. Consider that the last US Census noted that close to 70% of the United States population was in an urban area. This means urban parking is a problem for a great majority of Americans. Say you're lower class. You live in a high-rise apartment or rowhome in a poor area. Your only parking is on the street. Middle class? You live in a high-rise apartment or rowhome in a decent area. No free parking here either, so you either park on the street or shell out hundreds of dollars to park in shared indoor parking. In my area of downtown Philadelphia, shared indoor parking is $225/mo at minimum, and very few have any charging stations at all. The one that has a charging station near me is not free. Upper class? You live in a high-rise condo/apartment in a very good area. OK, now you have a real chance of having a charger in your (shared) indoor garage. You have a reserved spot but you may not have a charger in every spot. But how many people fall into the upper class? Very few ... and that means very few people have access to proper charging (due to parking, not electrical infrastructure). Now that's just where you live. What about where you work? In ALL cases, chances are you can't charge at work. Office buildings in the big cities often do not offer ANY parking, even if you want to pay for it! Maybe you're lucky and your office (if you work in an office) has an indoor parking lot where you can buy a monthly pass. The reality is that you're stuck finding street parking or using a commercial lot -- which puts you back in the situation of no chargers. You want to put chargers on the street for public use? You think the copper theft problem NOW is bad? Wait until you put lots of nice copper laden chargers on every urban street! Speaking of crime in cities, which is rapidly increasing, no sane individual wants to immobilize their car for even 20-30 minutes to get a decent fast charge if you're in an urban area. How many of you have related stories about being accosted by a panhandler at a gas station in the short time that you need to fuel up an ICE vehicle? Why would anyone want to stay longer in such a targeted environment? You want to pay at the pump, gas up and get the hell back on the road. We've ruled out EVs for city dwellers. What about deep rural folks (like where I grew up)? They won't adopt EVs due to range concerns. So we've ruled out EVs for city people and rural folks. The reality is that pure EVs only work for the suburbs, where folks have real garages so they can charge at home but are close enough to work that they don't need to charge at work. With 70% of the population in the US being "urban", it just doesn't apply to most people. To be clear, the technology will catch up. Eventually we will go back, full circle, to where we are today -- "gas stations" will be replaced by "EV stations", where you can charge in 5 minutes for 200-300 miles of juice. However, those sorts of huge infrastructure changes will happen at a much slower pace than most EV proponents realize. Until that time, EVs are limited to the small segment of society that have garages in the suburbs -- i.e., not much of America. You really aren't good with statistics are you? Go invert the headline, here let me do it for you. Original: 1 in five ditch their electric cars for gas. Inverted: four out of five prefer their electric over gas. Bonus points, which statement is the most factual and least biased? Just becuase they don't ditch their electric vehicle doesn't men they prefer it. 20% get rid of it 80% don't, but if you factor in an increasing rate of sale, many that have them are still new to them and the rate of ditching them may eventually go up if you factor in having it for the same amount of time. |
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Posted: 5/7/2021 8:41:46 AM EDT
[#33]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Good thing your ICE has an infinite lifespan. Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: That part already exists. Tesla Superchargers charge that fast. And at what long term cost? Fast charging reduces battery life, and you don't get infinite charge cycles. Or so I've been instructed on every lithium powered product I own. Good thing your ICE has an infinite lifespan. Hell, 3/4 of GD probably won't ever buy an EV because they don't come with a manual transmission. |
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Posted: 5/7/2021 8:42:59 AM EDT
[#34]
Why does this grand view of the future everyone keeps trying to sell, look and smell like a heaping pile of dog shit?
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Posted: 5/7/2021 8:45:18 AM EDT
[#35]
Like all fantasy land green tech, elec. cars still are ready for prime time.
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Posted: 5/7/2021 8:45:23 AM EDT
[#36]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Why does this grand view of the future everyone keeps trying to sell, look and smell like a heaping pile of dog shit? It always has, and that's why people get old and die, so the world can be left to the next group and their ideals. |
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Posted: 5/7/2021 8:46:27 AM EDT
[#37]
I can get about a 50% charge at most superchargers in about 15 minutes.
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Posted: 5/7/2021 8:47:18 AM EDT
[#38]
Quoted: Quoted: None of this matters. You WILL have an electric car eventually, you will just have to alter your lifestyle to accommodate it. Or take the bus. Restricting personal mobility is one of the stated goals of the left. I think you're being way too pessimistic. Electric vehicles have some great advantages, like a much simpler drive train that's far more reliable. Yes, we're at the point today where they're just being introduced to the average owner, and they do have disadvantages like charging etc. But in a few years that will be solved and the resulting vehicles will be superior. Sure, the Left pushes for public transportation, but that only works in the city (and only when well implemented). It has nothing to do with the introduction of EV's for general use. I'm curious on how good a job Ford will do with the coming electric F-150. They know if it doesn't at least equal the gas F-150 it will likely bomb, so I'm hoping to see some real ingenuity from them. |
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Posted: 5/7/2021 8:47:42 AM EDT
[#39]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Yup. EV's are fucking gay and I will never own one. Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: Gas only. Lithium mining is cancer to the planet. It is all a liberal feel good failure to achieve the stated goal. Yup. EV's are fucking gay and I will never own one. An innovative, American made car is gay? Stick to your rice burner. |
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Posted: 5/7/2021 8:49:19 AM EDT
[#40]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Good thing your ICE has an infinite lifespan. Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: That part already exists. Tesla Superchargers charge that fast. And at what long term cost? Fast charging reduces battery life, and you don't get infinite charge cycles. Or so I've been instructed on every lithium powered product I own. Good thing your ICE has an infinite lifespan. Like basically everything else you want more performance it comes at the expense of reliability/longevity. |
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Posted: 5/7/2021 8:50:20 AM EDT
[#41]
Quote HistoryQuoted: There aren’t enough California, Illinois, New York “national guard” to seize all of gas stations and truck stops in Texas, Idaho, Kansas... Moreover, you can’t bring that trailer or tanker full of electrical charge with you. How many “national guard” does it take to shut down the grid? Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: Gas only. Lithium mining is cancer to the planet. It is all a liberal feel good failure to achieve the stated goal. The left is trying to limit our range and freedom of movement. Hard to revolt and move on .gov if you only “fill up” in 4 or 5 hours. Hard to revolt and move on .gov if the national guard is called out to seize gas stations. It's a jerk off fantasy that EVs are part of some grand plan to suppress and control the populace. If they wanted to do that, they wouldn't have to go through nearly the trouble. COVID-19 already proved what they can get people to do merely by decree, fear, and propaganda. There aren’t enough California, Illinois, New York “national guard” to seize all of gas stations and truck stops in Texas, Idaho, Kansas... Moreover, you can’t bring that trailer or tanker full of electrical charge with you. How many “national guard” does it take to shut down the grid? Why bother seizing gas stations? 50 men each at 2 dozen refineries would cripple the entire ICE fleet in a week or two. How much reserve gasoline do you think our country has at any time? Besides, I can make my own electricity a lot easier than I can make my own gasoline or diesel. |
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Posted: 5/7/2021 8:51:11 AM EDT
[#42]
Quote HistoryQuoted: But yea that leaves at best 20% needing some kind of station charging to meet needs. And adoption won't be 100%. In many cases, for many years, lot of us will drive ICE's. Mostly due to preference I bet. don't forget the hordes of poors! inb4 landlords are forced to provide charging infrastructure for their tenants Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: This is what it's been hard for me to wrap my head around. Unlike petrol, for most, you top off at least every day. For most of us, you'd never need to go to a charging station. You charge wherever your park. You start with 3-400 miles at least every morning your at "home" but for some you have options at work too. Around here many. The only time you need to hit a charging station is when you travel more than your start reserve. 60-70% of Americans own their homes - little more than 80% of owned homes (or 70% in West/Midwest in other data) have garages or carports (had to check that) so little more than half of the US would have some options there. From a couple reports, just less than 40% of rentals nationally have garages. Seems high to me but lot of houses rent. so there's another roughly 10%. Rough cocktail napkin estimate - 60% have a garage or carport, some percentage have some "off street" parking, and a very small percentage have no vehicle at all. So let figure a third of folx don't have the ability to home charge, but some would at work. Let's go with an entirely arbitrarily figure, say that 8% - just a pulled from ass. With 100% adoption on the "available" side, some public parking installations and multifam open lot chargers, you'd still reduce the need for "off site" fill ups - mostly now fulfilled by petrol stations, by 80%. But yea that leaves at best 20% needing some kind of station charging to meet needs. And adoption won't be 100%. In many cases, for many years, lot of us will drive ICE's. Mostly due to preference I bet. I'm on no side but money here. But yea that leaves at best 20% needing some kind of station charging to meet needs. And adoption won't be 100%. In many cases, for many years, lot of us will drive ICE's. Mostly due to preference I bet. don't forget the hordes of poors! inb4 landlords are forced to provide charging infrastructure for their tenants LOL just like they're "forced" to provide refrigerators and plumbing infrastructure? |
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Posted: 5/7/2021 8:51:24 AM EDT
[#43]
Where is all this magic electricity to power these charging stations coming from? I guess AOC’s 1.5M CCC workers will be turning hand powered generators.
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Posted: 5/7/2021 8:53:31 AM EDT
[#44]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Why bother seizing gas stations? 50 men each at 2 dozen refineries would cripple the entire ICE fleet in a week or two. How much reserve gasoline do you think our country has at any time? Besides, I can make my own electricity a lot easier than I can make my own gasoline or diesel. |
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Posted: 5/7/2021 8:54:06 AM EDT
[#45]
Quote HistoryQuoted: LOL just like they're "forced" to provide refrigerators and plumbing infrastructure? Once everyone has electric cars how many more power plants will have to be built? Where is the fuel going to come from to run those new power plants? Nine hundred fifty TRILLION windmills? Or run by energy the 'tards all oppose? What will be the net savings to the environment? Serious questions. |
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Posted: 5/7/2021 8:55:33 AM EDT
[#46]
Quote HistoryQuoted: LOL just like they're "forced" to provide refrigerators and plumbing infrastructure? |
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Posted: 5/7/2021 8:55:43 AM EDT
[#47]
Quote HistoryQuoted: I think a better comparison would be in how you use it. Either gas or electric. Like basically everything else you want more performance it comes at the expense of reliability/longevity. True, but I certainly get more performance out of a Tesla P100D than I got out of my Z06 Corvette. If I were to beat on the Corvette like I do the Tesla it would spit it's pushrods out or break a rocker arm (like it did twice) or the Corvettes manual transmission would get difficult going from first to second. |
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Posted: 5/7/2021 8:58:34 AM EDT
[#48]
Quote HistoryQuoted: People like to say this too but practically speaking hardly anyone is doing either. Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: Why bother seizing gas stations? 50 men each at 2 dozen refineries would cripple the entire ICE fleet in a week or two. How much reserve gasoline do you think our country has at any time? Besides, I can make my own electricity a lot easier than I can make my own gasoline or diesel. I guess Solar City is a figment of my imagination. Besides, hardly anyone has a supply of gasoline at their home either. For most people, filling their gas tank when it gets down to a quarter is about the biggest prep they'll make. |
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Posted: 5/7/2021 9:00:00 AM EDT
[#49]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Once everyone has electric cars how many more power plants will have to be built? Where is the fuel going to come from to run those new power plants? Nine hundred fifty TRILLION windmills? Or run by energy the 'tards all oppose? What will be the net savings to the environment? Serious questions. Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: LOL just like they're "forced" to provide refrigerators and plumbing infrastructure? Once everyone has electric cars how many more power plants will have to be built? Where is the fuel going to come from to run those new power plants? Nine hundred fifty TRILLION windmills? Or run by energy the 'tards all oppose? What will be the net savings to the environment? Serious questions. I don't give a shit about EVs with respect to the environment. They can sacrifice an endangered iguana at 8 am every morning for all I care, as long as they generate current. |
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Posted: 5/7/2021 9:01:04 AM EDT
[#50]
Quote HistoryQuoted: True, but I certainly get more performance out of a Tesla P100D than I got out of my Z06 Corvette. If I were to beat on the Corvette like I do the Tesla it would spit it's pushrods out or break a rocker arm (like it did twice) or the Corvettes manual transmission would get difficult going from first to second. Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: I think a better comparison would be in how you use it. Either gas or electric. Like basically everything else you want more performance it comes at the expense of reliability/longevity. True, but I certainly get more performance out of a Tesla P100D than I got out of my Z06 Corvette. If I were to beat on the Corvette like I do the Tesla it would spit it's pushrods out or break a rocker arm (like it did twice) or the Corvettes manual transmission would get difficult going from first to second.
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