And this. I might be wrong but to me it seems like one of those things that sounds great until everyone tries to do it.

Choice is awesome, as long as we have actually free markets and the government isn't artificially making gasoline expensive to push their fucking worldview on us, it doesn't bother me at all electrics work for people. Awesome, if it works for them, it works for them
Want 20 Teslas and you can afford 10 Teslas?
Do it.

But it actually really doesn't work right now for a lot of people, and we're banking on technology changes that were honestly supposed to be here already and are not here yet, in order to make it better for more people. We are not there yet, honestly we might not be for a very long time if at all.

As much as it bothers wealthy politicians, and Subway riding city dwelling journalists, there are very legitimate reasons and realworld situations people have for staying with ICE vehicles for a good while.
Pulling a year out of a hat and wrapping public statements of automakers (who are jealous AF of Tesla and trying to get investor dollars) around it while trying to kneel to their new lefty overlords, doesnt magically make consumers happy about it all.

California is tearing down power plants,

@c7aea15

Whether EVs are the best choice or if 100% of people can utilize the technology is immaterial. Just above I've explicitly laid out exactly "your" point and suggest the percentages likely more negative.

Regardless of any views on this, in the next decade, a significant portion of the American public will own EVs. Most of not all mfgs have stated goals in eliminating ICE from their lines, pretty much in 15 years. The reasons are manifold and mostly regulatory but the fact has to dealt with. But within a short time frame all of us are going to be dealing with the transition. It'll be as disruptive as the conversion from animal power.

Bitching that some percentage will rely on station charging is emotionally satisfying (I'm in that camp) but isn't very useful in determining the what, who and how the adoption of EVs will bring.

Yea I've thought about this a bit. For me, if any percentage of my resident pool has needs that will impact choosing where they will live. I better be in place to serve them, or have very good reasons to forgo their business.

I really want an EV,  but its just doesn't make sense for me.  I need a kid hauler/camping vehicle.  3 rows,  high clearance,  under 45k.   It doesn't exist yet.  So ill wait.  Maybe in 10 years.

Ive come to expect isolated bad behavior so everybody  is a bit broad. But, since this behavior happens infrequently or not at all now, the chances things will change are negligible.  

Regardless counterfactuals, the outliers, hypotheticals and exceptions in this thread won't keep things from progressing.

Of course they did.

In most cases electric cars are as and/or convenient,  cheaper, better than gas cars.

Are there seriously people who factor in Mad-Max scenarios of government seizing the power grid and not being able to charge your car, etc, into their purchasing decisions?

They go on the car lot and want something akin to al Qaeda's Hilux that can be used to stage an insurgency?

"This car has heated and cooled leather seats, a sun roof, and automatic headlights."

"Yeah, but can it take several .50 caliber rounds to the engine block and still get me to the safe house??"

Some of you are so weird.

Then why isn't the price of used ones coming down? And the ones that are offered for sale are snatched up quickly?

Sure it is. A parking space itself is an employee benefit.

No it isn't.  A couple of Tesla charging spots makes for good press.  Building out and feeding charging stations for more than a minority of your employees?  That money has to come from somewhere, if not the customer/consumer than from the employees.

 LOL what ?  A 2018 P100D model with under 20,000 miles s is almost half the original sticker.  I know because I’ve been watching.

I decided to FO with a Nissan GTR.  But I did and will strongly consider a Tesla.  I want the range to be a bit higher for me living in cold weather.  I may proactively install a charging station.  I’m not a hater, I am just not quite there yet on an EV.

It will get passed along like any other overhead would.

A lot of very successful businesses have a myriad of small benefits for employees to retain them, the upfront and ongoing cost will be offset by employee satisfaction and production.

Most companies don't own their space. There's no appetite for this even with progressive firms, least throughout the Midwest and South. Maybe in places where LEEDs sells it would.

Given the current atmosphere and trends in office and commercial RE, there won't be adoptions in retrofit, and little in new dev outside requirements any time soon.  Unless someone can monetize the offering.

 You act as if everyone lives in a home.

It's part of the compensation package. You sound like a boss who refuses to provide coffee, or charges his employees for parking, or restricts everyone to one drink apiece at the Christmas party.

Bottom line, if you want happy employees, you have to stay competitive with your compensation. If not? Well, have fun doing constant interviews with your 6 month turnover.

I'll admit, I really, really, really want the Cyber Truck.  That being said...

So far, the cult of the EV has not given me a single real world reason to buy one.

First, we're not all ARFCOM millionaires with supermodel wives.  The cost of EVs is, pardon my French, fucking ridiculous.

I looked online for used Teslas.  The cheapest one I could find near me the other day was six or seven years old and they wanted just shy of $40,000 for it.  Fuck off.

Next, the same tired arguments that get brought up in each thread:

Torque!!!1!  So?  They have torque, and?  When I'm going down the road to the grocery store to pick up something I forgot, I don't give a rat's ass how much torque I do or do not have.  If I'm cruising along the highway on a 4 hour drive, sitting at 70mph the entire way, all that TOrQUe!!!1! is doing nothing for me.

OMG!!!  They are so fast!!!   And?  If I wanted fast, I'd already have a sports car.  Maybe if they change highway 70 to the Autobahn I'll care, otherwise I'm a boring guy who obeys the speed limits because I can't afford a traffic ticket.

They have fewer parts!  OK, fine, and?  Ridiculous price divided by fewer parts equals each part cost more.  In other words, any parts that need replacing will cost me more.  Great.

They need less maintenance!  I have a 14 year old Jeep.  I change the oil twice a year.  Oh my God, so much maintenance.

A few negatives I see as well -

Wake me when I can charge the batteries from empty to full in the same time it takes me to fill the empty tank on my Jeep.

The ability for Tesla to turn things on and off over the air is a huge concern for me.  This doesn't bother anyone else?  I was reading their own agreement about super charging.  If they think you are using your car for commercial use, they'll yank your ability to use the super chargers.  Nice.  Everyone in the cult loves to rave about Elon being a benevolent god and rolling things out over the air.  No one seems to mind that kind of control over their own property.

Also, there was a story in the news the other day about a Tesla that crashed and burned.  Elon tweeted out something about the logs for the car.  Excuse me?  How do they get the logs from a burned out car?  I'm guessing that they continuously download the logs over the air.  

What else are they doing over the air?  How long until the FBI is getting logs for all cars to find out who was near the capitol on a certain date (Jan 6 for example).

In the end, I'm sure I'll end up with one, but it won't be because it's the better option, it will be because the government mandated it into the only option.

My wife never uses public charging.  350 miles of range is more than enough for any driving she does in a day.

We've used a supercharger twice.  Once when we bought it just to see how it worked and the second time before we had 240v wired to the garage.  She actually was able to keep up on 120v/12 amps for months for the most part until we had the garage wired up for Level 2 charging.

So yes, if you have a garage and can get 240v out there, you'll likely never bother with public charging unless you do a long road trip.  The one place EVs suck is going across country.  It's absolutely doable if you have the time but ICE wins there every day of the week currently.

We've already worked out the percentages and the unqualified won't stop those who can utilize from
adopting.

Some percentage of people right now don't, won't or can't own period. Doesn't hamper the rest of us owners in any way.
10% EV sales (up from 1.5% last year) gives you something like 30% adoption in 5 years. Those who don't leave access to non-parked charging will have to do something else. Including not owning an EV.

And some work places charge for parking.

I can see it being a benefit initially for a few vehicles till they're like "holy fuck how much is this installation/maintenance/electricity costing us?" for all the vehicles  

You can buy a brand new model 3 for 39k.

If you wanted speed, you'd already own a sports car? Well considering you think 40k is too much for a sports car...

Speaking of waking you up, wouldn't it be pretty cool if you could wake up to a full tank every single morning with no effort?

As for the rest of the doomerism, NONE of that is limited to EVs. If the government wants the ability to brick your vehicle, they can do it.

I liked Tesla's idea of stations where you pull in, drop the pack, pick up a new pack and be on your way.


That's the only way I'll consider an Ev. I don't want to spend 20-90 minutes every 300 miles to charge up.

Gas in the car takes five minutes

Really? Because any place I've ever worked in my life only ever seems to reduce benefits over time...

You don’t have to care.  Poor people will still need cars.  More walking is probably better for a lot of people anyway.......

The reality is there are a lot of piece of shit cars on the road, and a lot of people way below middle income that will in no way shape or form be able to afford an EV.  There aren’t even neighborhood repair shops to get an EV fixed.  You know the scrubby looking place that fixes something for $65 because that’s all people can pay, and they have pile of old shot parts in the backyard.  Yes the service industry will change, but that’s going to be 20 years.  

Public transportation is way off being fully electric.

Freight Shipping is way off from being fully electric.

Farm and heavy equipment is not viable for all electric .

Then those workplaces can charge their employees for the cost to charge. Still a bargain.

Find a better employer.

Well, according to one poster even though I only posted the link I should write for Pravda. Even though the site is a conservative law site and one of the better ones at that.
So comrade, I do own a Subaru WRX and a GMC Canyon. Neither is electric. A lot of of my power and yard tools are now battery.
Have thought that a hybrid might just make sense for me though. Most trips aren't that far, having an ICE backup would be a nice option. The truck is used mostly for hunting trips and getting mulch every spring.
What I mostly wonder about though is the end of life of the batteries. Are they able to recycle the lithium and others like they do with lead acid batteries? Didn't sound like it in the article.
Thought the article was interesting, and I'm thinking my next vehicle might be a hybrid.

My wife's company adds them yearly, the place has grown a lot since she started, along with her benefits package and relaxing the dress code.

Self driving uber will cover most urban will compete against the bus I suspect.  E-scooters are more practical for shorter distances.

Thanks for the tip. But considering it's happened at every job so far and even old timers say how much better things used to be.
Seriously though what has your employer has actually added in benefits over time?

It's even more simple - adoption will happen because soon most (perhaps all decent ) choices from mfgs will only be EV.

GM, VAG, JLR,  have already stated phase out timelines and suspended dev on new ICE. They and  Toyota, Korea Motors, Stellantis all will have a majority of EV models available by 2025. The rest have similar plans and billions invested in the changeover - but only speak in terms of investment not stated outcomes.

It all plans and goals, backed by regs -mostly Europe and some states - but enough that this won't come off the rails. Some won't adopt, lots will - but overall, you won't have many choices outside EV if you want a new vehicle.

I don't think you can have an honest conversation about EVs without admitting that they are luxuries for the rich and upper middle class currently.  

But with that said, there will be a solid market for cheap used EVs at some point given how long they are known to last and even furthermore with the upcoming million mile batteries currently under development.

It's also fair to say that the majority of EVs are outfitted with performance and features that specifically target the affluent early adopter crowd.  The cheapest Tesla you can currently buy still comes with Autopilot and all sorts of other pricey technology packed under the hood.  There is no "cloth seats, AM/FM radio, manual windows, unheated seats, 200hp, 50kwh battery" option right now in Tesla's lineup.

On the charging aspect, I think you will find that there is eventually a pretty good market for any public facing business with a parking lot to offer paid or even free charging in their lot.  This can work in two different ways:

1)  Grocery stores that regularly use loss leaders like milk to get people in the door are going to eventually see offering L2 charging as a way to attract people to their store.  If I'm an apartment dweller with an EV and I can go to Walmart or Kroger but Walmart is offering free L2 charging for the 30-60 minutes that I'm there...I'm going to Walmart.

2)  If loss leading isn't the goal, there will be a financial incentive to offer charging.  Right now as it is, you can hire a 3rd party to install chargers on your lot and collect a portion of the charging fees that they generate.  This isn't a big deal now with only a few percent of the public driving EVs but what about in the future when there are millions of them on the road?

The point being, is that the EV charging paradigm won't follow, or at least exclusively follow, the ICE fueling paradigm.  Rather than being limited to gas stations, it'll be pervasive in just about any place you can park and there will be a financial incentive for businesses who offer parking to also offering charging.

Not an overnight change and the poors and apartment dwellers may not get there in the next decade or even the decade after that but at some point you'll see it where you can pretty much charge any time you park any where you park.

The one thing that's built in already is that electrification is pervasive everywhere.  Pretty much every home and business in the country has electrical service which means pretty much every home and business in the country can potentially provide a charging station.

If cars ran on steam power and only today we discovered gasoline, it would be a MUCH greater challenge to roll out that infrastructure than it is to roll out infrastructure for EVs.

Sorry for the wall of text.

I don’t disagree and it’s one of only a couple reasons that I am not on board with EV yet.   Like global warming, and carbon neutral initiatives it’s about control and it really bugs me.

Ok. Maybe for a growing company. What about one that's pretty well established? What about where you work?

Eventually even where she works will someday peak and maintain. Then possibly decrease.

I'm self employed. We do have an employee though. He gets regular raises, free gas, we buy most of the parts for his vehicles, we pay for his phone, he has the best health insurance money can buy, shall I go on?

Do you even know where you are at right now?  

My ICE? My position on this subject is get both. Try again.

I'm self employed, so my benefits are whatever I pay myself.

Her company is decades old and was well established prior to her starting, I think the "old guard" got phased out after she began though and they shifted toward retaining employees. They remodeled the buildings, added stuff like free snack and coffee bars, add vision and dental, improved the retirement plan options, it's really changed in the last 10 years or so.

The big time bomb is going to be the resale value of EVs. My prediction is it is going to be shit. When the batteries are done, the replacement cost is going to exceed the value of the vehicle in many cases. Adam Smith's 'invisible hand' is about to bitch slap the EV world.

Nice, can I get a temporary job in the fall hunting deer on your place? I could do with fewer benefits so you'll save some money.

No that's ok. No need to go on how your great treatment of 1 employee remotely compares to any bigger business with hundreds or thousands of employees.

Depends. Are you in your early 20's, genetically female, with perky breasts and a small waist? If so, send me your resume.

I think there is going to have to be both a secondary trade in market, and salvage operations by manufacturers, so you either sell your vehicle to a parts company that salvages it for the used market, or you trade it in when you upgrade and they recycle everything they can off it, including harvesting usable lithium (or whatever they will use eventually) from the old pack.

I'd like one for my commute, roughly 50 miles a day and gas is pricey. We have an outlet I could plug into for my 9 hours.

Would not use it on road trips, watched my old boss plan their road trip around charging stations with things to do since it's an hour or so.

Companies that want to retain excellent employees go above and beyond. 5 figure bonuses are hardly uncommon for valuable workers. You really think EV chargers are going to be the line where companies dig in their heels and refuse to bend?

I wonder if any EVs will have collector car value in 50 years?

I have employees and a need to hire more.  If they all sucked 50 miles of range out of my meter per day we'd be talking about 15kwh per day per employee or about $1.95 per day at my current rates.

Would I pay basically $2 per day per employee as an incentive if it helped me attract good employees?  Yes, yes I would.  Even if it was double that amount.  That'd be a pittance compared to what I spend on healthcare, 401k, and PTO.  

EVs aren't popular around here yet at all so I don't offer it but I would roll it out in a heartbeat if I thought it would help.  I'm sure in certain labor markets, it absolutely does.

Are you talking about charging stations for everyone or charging stations for the people also getting 5 figure bonuses?....

Because what % of the work force do you think is getting 5 figure bonuses?

I would have no earthly idea what percent do. My point was that for exceptional workers, exceptional compensation is provided. A few bucks a day to keep employees happy by charging their vehicles is a bargain compared to the hiring process. Would you rather pay a low level manager 30 dollars an hour to interview 20 people a day, plus HR, plus background checks, plus training, to hire new employees? Or install a few outlets to retain the ones you have?

You're looking at like $50,000 to install a level 3 charger. Of course there are some tax incentives, but not that much.