Quoted: I'd say just the opposite.  Someone who believes in the innerancy of a work (any work) isn't capable of a rational discussion on the work.

False premise. Did I come from the womb believing in the inerrancy of the Bible? Is that sort of thing handed down by genetics, or is it possible for a person to come to that conclusion after a lifetime of study and search?

You presume FAR too much with that statement.

Noone claims a Tale of Two Cities is inerrant, yet you can find careful analysis of that book and many others.

That is an invalid comparison. Dickens never claimed to be Divinely inspired, and the Tale of Two Cities does not claim to be the Word of God, now does it?

Apples and oranges.

Biblical Scholarship is an interesting field and many in it do not view it as the word of God.

There are a lot of "scholars" that don't believe truth in a lot of fields. As a man who has spent a fair chunk of my life in academic institutions, I know how easy it is for fads to take hold in schools of thought.

Questions about the Bible's accuracy are quite fashionable. At one time it was very fashionable to ridicule the Bible's veracity because of this great "hittite" empire it spoke of, and not a single record could be found of what was claimed to be such a great society! The poor fools who would dare believe such a work of fables!

That was until they actually began to unearth evidence of the Hittite society spoken of in the Bible. Instead of viewing the Bible with a HEALTHY ACADEMIC SKEPTICISM, "scholars" have taken every opportunity to ridicule the Bible for its inaccuracies, but have not appologized ONCE when they have been contradicted by evidence that has been unearthed.

Instead of waiting for the Bible to be proven one way or another, they immediately jump to a conclusion of it being utterly false while evidence confirming its word is out there waiting to be discovered. Every dismissal people have made of the Bible has been PREMATURE as it was with the Hittites. Archaeology has unearthed MANY proofs of the Bible's accuracy as history. Medical science has unearthed MANY evidences of the advanced nature of the Bible's medical wisdom. History has witnessed to the accuracy of MANY of the Bible's prophecies. (Cyrus the king and Alexander the Great to mention just a couple) Discoveries in places like the Dead Sea Scrolls have shown that the text of scripture has remained accurate for thousands of years.

Are there  opinions any less valid than someone with the same education and experience, but who does believe in the Bible is inerrant?

It is very simple: The Bible CLAIMS to be inerrent. So it either is, or it isn't.

My problem is that many people are DISMISSIVE of the Bible's accuracy FROM SQUARE ONE. And they spread the dismissive ideas, and others parrot them, without having even examined the evidence. They make the same mistake as those who dismissed the roundness of the earth: Their knowledge is incomplete, and yet they THINK it is complete. The conclusions about the Bible's accuracy made popular by Voltaire and others of his time were made out of a HUMAN motive, not a scholarly one.

Archaeology in its infancy claimed a lot of things that it now has reversed. Science and learning are, at any point, INCOMPLETE. Previous claims about the Bible's inaccuracies and problems have proven premature, so pure academic honesty would proscribe a more circumspect and thoughtful approach to this work that plays the most crucial role in human history of ANY work ever penned.

Quoted: so your being "bullied", you figured it was ok to bully someone else? very interesting indeed.

I was 12.

Get over yourself.

If you would accuse a man of being a hypocrite because of his actions at the onset of puberty despite how many DECADES have passed since that time, then you are REALLY desperate for ammo.

sorry JW, you are still the same bully, it's just in the pulpit now. the original poster said he found his way to god. you condemn him [that's not the "right" way to find god, etc, etc. Can't you just be glad you actually had another gathered with the flock?

Lots of people claim they have found their way to God. Including a lot of the people from history you cite as examples of "christian" excesses and violence. Should we just sit back and say that "they found their way to God" and be glad they were "gathered" to the flock?

I am not discounting Onemanmag's Christianity or his current faith. I am merely saying that narcotics are NOT the path to Jesus, else Los Angeles would be the most righteous city in the world. Drugs do not lead people to Jesus, nor are they a positive influence in their Christian walk. The Bible clearly says that if a man confesses Christ as Lord with a genuine heart, that it is the Holy Spirit that draws him, not shrooms.

I am happy to see a person of genuine faith wherever I see them. But because we have been saved, we now have a responsibility to speak the Truth of Christ, which does not include giving drugs any credit for our relationship with Christ.

That's not being a bully. That is called giving credit where credit is due.

personally, you have proven every reason I had to doubt religion true moreso than you ever helped me to grow closer.

Is this supposed to hurt me, or make me feel guilt? Am I supposed to now be your justification for a rejection of God's truth? Merely because I have told you over and over again what the Bible says in its own words, to the point that you complained that "corinthians this" and "ephesians that" was annoying you?

All I have done is given you the Word. What you DECIDE to do with it after that point is YOUR DECISION. I have nothing to do with it.

You may blame me all you wish, just as you have blamed other "christians" you have interacted with in the past for your lack of faith. But in the end, it is your decision. YOU decide what you will believe, and YOU decide what you will accept.

You could very easily pick up a Bible and try to find out if what I am speaking is really in there or not. That is UP TO YOU.

Blaming me is an act of....Cowardice.

I believe (just me now, MHO) you think yourself more important than god for this mission and only you know the way.

I believe myself more important than God? Is that why I have spent so much time quoting and defending His word? Is that why I have proclaimed over and over again my great need of His salvation? Is that why I have said over and over again that He alone is Lord and King, and that His authority is final?

Your opinion is just that: Your opinion, and it is most ill informed at that. I have never proclaimed myself to be higher than God. All I HAVE done is insist, quite to your consternation, that God is not a weak minded fool who accepts just any old thing. I have insisted, as the Word proclaims, that He is  a King, and that He is WORTHY of reverence and obedience, and that He will not share His throne with His creation.

I am not coming up with my own theology here. I am proclaiming what God's word says about Him, the things He has chosen to reveal about Himself. That is all.

If God truly exists, he would not reject anyone who after many trials and tribulations found him.

No, and not for a moment did I imply that God did any such thing! All I said was that no man comes to Christ THROUGH narcotics! Every man that is saved is saved because God has done a work in him, despite the sin and wrong in that man's life! God's love is so vast that He reaches out for us through the blood of the cross and brings us to Himself!

No man is worthy of it, least of all me, but yet in His goodness He has made THE way of salvation known to men through Jesus Christ, Son of the Living God! And ANY man who is willing to humble himself before the cross of Christ is SAVED! Without regard for his earthly status, wealth, or even his past sins against God, our loving Creator reaches out to make the man a new creature through the power of His Holy Spirit!

He has done this for countless millions, and for me, and if Onemanmag's relationship is genuine, God did it for him too!

Shrooms did NOT do this. God and God alone is the Savior of men, and He reveals Christ to us in His great mercy and goodness. Shrooms don't reveal God, and they are not a path to God.

But even those who use narcotics can be drawn by the Holy Spirit and saved from the death of body and soul that such things bring to a man!

isn't that type of pride a sin too? Not to get all preachy. but damn man. Chris

Honestly. If you can see pride in my statements in this response, then you see them because you WANT to see them.

I have said it before, and I will say it again, so listen VERY carefully, OK?

No man on this earth has needed forgiveness more than me. I have been guilty of sins that make me tremble to even think of. No man on this earth is more in need of a Savior than I am. Before Christ reached out to me, before the work of the Spirit that quickened my soul back to life, I was as lost as a human being could be.

But in His great mercy, God reached out to me and saved me from the despair of my existence. He forgave my sins because I buckled beneath the conviction of the Spirit and confessed from a true heart my great need of Him. From that day to this, my life has been changed. Not perfect, but different, and I grow closer to God with every prayer, every scripture, every act of obedience. I am continuously being shaped in His image. I am being shaped by His wisdom, enlarged by His love, and perfected by His empowering presence.

If I should walk through the gates of Heaven and hear "Welcome Home Child!!!", then I know I have not heard it because I deserved it. I have not been loved because I was worthy. I have not been saved because I merited it in any way.

My one and only hope is in the sacrifice of blood that Christ made for me, and I glory in NOTHING but the grace and mercy He has made manifest in my life! I am a walking testament to the power of God to change a man, and the love of God that wills the change. I did not discover Him. He revealed Himself to me! All credit, all glory, all praise for my salvation is due Him and Him alone! For no man, beast, principality or wisdom of this earth has saved me. God and God alone has worked this miracle in my life!

I don't know how to be any clearer than that.

[shaking head] wasn't intended to be hurtful or make you feel guilty. just an observation mixed in with what it has done in my search.

never mind JW.

carry on

Chris

Quoted: [shaking head] wasn't intended to be hurtful or make you feel guilty. just an observation mixed in with what it has done in my search. never mind JW. carry on Chris

You didn't hurt me OR make me feel guilty. I know that YOU are the arbiter of what you believe. I wanted everyone else to hear that too.

For a searcher, you seem mighty absolute. You aren't sure of what the truth is, but you are darned sure it isn't what I have spoken to you?

Come now.

If you think that I am a haughty masochistic liar, just say so and be done with it. You are either willing to listen to what I have to say, open to the possibility that the scripture really IS true, or you are not. I have yet to hear anything from you that would indicate that you are.

Quoted: Quoted: [shaking head] wasn't intended to be hurtful or make you feel guilty. just an observation mixed in with what it has done in my search. never mind JW. carry on Chris You didn't hurt me OR make me feel guilty. I know that YOU are the arbiter of what you believe. I wanted everyone else to hear that too. For a searcher, you seem mighty absolute. You aren't sure of what the truth is, but you are darned sure it isn't what I have spoken to you? Come now. If you think that I am a haughty masochistic liar, just say so and be done with it. You are either willing to listen to what I have to say, open to the possibility that the scripture really IS true, or you are not. I have yet to hear anything from you that would indicate that you are.

don't wish to call you any of those things (haughty masochistic liar) , but not a great way to bing people to God.
and yes, I do wish to learn one way or the other. your manner is what I have trouble stomaching, and has driven me further from "your" dogma than to it. you seem to expect everyone to be as accomplished in your search as you were, yet mock them when they do find God/get saved .

your insistance in "the one way" is what does it for me. as there are in fact many different religions that don't ascrib to "your" exact way.

anyway, I said what I meant. and really wish you would concider not condemning "the way" they got there, and just be happy they found "gods grace".
right now, reading this thread, that is not what you've done.

Chris

Quoted: don't wish to call you any of those things (haughty masochistic liar) , but not a great way to bing people to God.

As I said before, GOD brings people to God. Not me or anything else.

and yes, I do wish to learn one way or the other. your manner is what I have trouble stomaching, and has driven me further from "your" dogma than to it.

My manner? If one man tells you the truth curtly, and another tells you smooth lies, who has done you a service, and who has done you a harm?

Pick up the Bible. Read what Jesus said and did. His tone was FAR more agressive than any I have used. The Gospel is absolute and unyielding, and many find that offensive. Jesus is the single most offensive figure in human history, and His refusal to compromise the truth was the reason the pharisees hated Him and wanted Him dead.

They weren't mad at His tone. They rejected His truth, and their hearts were darkened because they shut their eyes to the light.

If the absolute nature of the Gospel offends you, so be it. It offended me too. The question now is whether or not you will eventually humble yourself before the truth, or whether you will harden your heart like Pharoh did.

you seem to expect everyone to be as accomplished in your search as you were, yet mock them when they do find God/get saved .

No, I don't expect everyone to be as far along in the journey as I am, which is why I bother to post all this stuff to begin with. And if I wanted to mock people, I would just do it. I wouldn't spend HOURS explaining doctrine, quoting scripture, and trying to present the faith that God has made known to me.

Insulting someone is quick and easy. Trying to make known the grace of Christ takes a lot more effort and preparation.

your insistance in "the one way" is what does it for me. as there are in fact many different religions that don't ascrib to "your" exact way.

I have a bit of news for you: It is not "my insistence." Christ stubbornly refuses to accept any other path, and declares with absolute certainty:

"Jesus said to him, "I am the way, the truth, and the life. No one comes to the Father except through Me."

John 14:6

There are many different religions that claim many different things. There are a lot of people that claim to be abducted by aliens and given anal probes too. The variety of claims does not impact the truth of any of them.

You don't have a problem with me, you have a problem with my insistence that there is some other way to God but Christ. I wasn't thrilled about that idea for much of my life either. But if you can pick up a Bible and show me a loophole, or some other true way to God except Christ, I am all ears.

This isn't MY idea or MY doctrine. It is His.

The bottom line? All the nice ideas in various religions are worthless if they are not directly from God Himself. Anything not from Him that is about Him is a lie blacker than hell, because it leads men astray.

anyway, I said what I meant. and really wish you would concider not condemning "the way" they got there, and just be happy they found gods grace. right now, reading this thread, that is not what you've done.

If a person has genuinely found God's grace, then I AM happy. But at the same time I will not sit by and allow others to even have the slightest cause to think that narcotics are the path to God's grace!! Lots of false ideas and doctrines abound, and that is why God gave us the Word in the first place. It is judge of all things, and we are to conform to it, and not allow our own ideas to be magnified above the revelation of God.

The realm of the spirit is a DANGEROUS one. It is not populated by good alone, but by a powerful and cunning evil that will use EVERY opportunity to enslave and destroy men. The idea that drugs can lead you to God can become one of those ways.

Going out of the boundaries of the Bible's revelation is a dangerous game that no human is equipped to win. The Word is our protection, and we must cling to it if we are to avoid the pitfalls and traps of the enemy.

Drugs do NOT lead people to God. God reveals Himself to us, and draws us by His Spirit. That's the Bible Truth.

sorry JW, but we disagree. I'll continue my search, but this hasn't helped. and I am not the only one, in rereading the thread, that sees it.

I'm out.

Chris

Quoted: sorry JW, but we disagree. I'll continue my search, but this hasn't helped. and I am not the only one, in rereading the thread, that sees it. I'm out. Chris

I have told you the truth to the best of my ability. What you do with it from here is between you and God. Him who has an ear, let him hear.

Quoted: Their knowledge is incomplete, and yet they THINK it is complete.

And what makes you believe that your knowledge is more complete than anyone else's?

The Bible is infalible.
Why?
Because the Bible says it is.

And, as I've said before, simply because a story, a myth, is set and centered around historical figures and places does not necessarily make the story history itself. Vampire mythology grew up around an anctual historical figure, but that does not mean that vampires are real. That does not make it history. Just because there really is a New York City which holds a parade sponsored by Macy's department store, and there really was a Mr. Macy and a Mr. Gimble doesn't make A Miracle on 34th Street history.

You are the one whose knowledge is incomplete but THINKS it is complete.

Quoted: Quoted: sorry JW, but we disagree. I'll continue my search, but this hasn't helped. and I am not the only one, in rereading the thread, that sees it. I'm out. Chris I have told you the truth to the best of my ability. What you do with it from here is between you and God. Him who has an ear, let him hear.

How are you so sure that it is he who is not hearing?



"Jesus said to him, "I am the way, the truth, and the life. No one comes to the Father except through Me."

John 14:6



Its all in the interpretation of the myth....

Quoted: The Bible is infalible. Why? Because the Bible says it is.

The Bible is infallible because it is the Word of the Living God. And this it is, because every word of it has proven true.

I have seen the POWER of the Gospel. I have seen it change men, change me, I have seen the promises of healing, blessing, and many others come true with my own eyes. I have seen men healed, seen men changed, seen the power of the Gospel in my own life.

The true Gospel would have power reflecting the power of the God who sent it forth. The power of that Gospel is the power that caused a persecuted small sect to not just survive any attempt to destroy it, but to THRIVE to the point that even secular historians of the time noted the Christians and the signs and wonders that followed them.

The true Gospel has power.

And, as I've said before, simply because a story, a myth, is set and centered around historical figures and places does not necessarily make the story history itself. Vampire mythology grew up around an anctual historical figure, but that does not mean that vampires are real. That does not make it history. Just because there really is a New York City which holds a parade sponsored by Macy's department store, and there really was a Mr. Macy and a Mr. Gimble doesn't make A Miracle on 34th Street history. You are the one whose knowledge is incomplete but THINKS it is complete.

Fables have no power. But the Gospel DOES have power, and it changes men's lives DAILY on this planet. People are healed, liberated, renewed, and the power of God goes forth to touch men's lives.

If you have "knowledge" but no power, then it is clear that the knowledge you posess is incomplete. I have seen this power with my own eyes, have prayed the prayer of faith and watched people recover from things that should have killed them.

If there was no power in the Gospel, then it wouldn't be the message of God.

If you have adopted a powerless idea, drop it and have the humility to believe what God has said, and you WILL know His power, His Word, and most importantly you will know Him.

Quoted: How are you so sure that it is he who is not hearing? "Jesus said to him, "I am the way, the truth, and the life. No one comes to the Father except through Me." John 14:6 Its all in the interpretation of the myth ....

Because the Gospel is NOT a myth. It is the revealed Word of God, and is the power of salvation. Your very words condemn any claim to Christ you could make.

Christ is not a myth, His Gospel is not a myth, His Word is not a myth and His power is most certainly not a myth.

But until you let go of the darkness in your own willful heart, you will never know the Truth for yourself. At least not until it is too late.

The pharisees WATCHED Jesus heal men, and yet they sought to destroy Him because they refused His council, and rejected His power, attributing it to the work of Satan. They had prayed for the messiah, and when Christ came they rejected Him because they had THEIR OWN ideas about the messiah, ideas Jesus didn't fit.

So when they saw Christ standing before them, they rejected Him because He wasn't what they wanted. And they received the price of despising the Son of God.

Quoted: Quoted: The Bible is infalible. Why? Because the Bible says it is. The Bible is infallible because it is the Word of the Living God. And this it is, because every word of it has proven true. I have seen the POWER of the Gospel. I have seen it change men, change me, I have seen the promises of healing, blessing, and many others come true with my own eyes. I have seen men healed, seen men changed, seen the power of the Gospel in my own life.

You will never, ever, and under no circumstance, hear me deny the power of the Gospel. Never. It is, indeed, powerful. It's supposed to be. It's designed that way.

This particular myth cycle did for you exactly what it's supposed to do. It touched you down deep in your psyche. That's precicely what it's supposed to do.

The true Gospel would have power reflecting the power of the God who sent it forth. The power of that Gospel is the power that caused a persecuted small sect to not just survive any attempt to destroy it, but to THRIVE to the point that even secular historians of the time noted the Christians and the signs and wonders that followed them. The true Gospel has power.

The Christian myth cycle has that power for you. That's a wonderful thing. It's supposed to be powerful. It's supposed to be transformative. It's doing in you exactly what it's meant to do. It is not, however, meant to work for everyone. It just won't work for everyone. Different cultures, different societies, need different myths. They need myths which address their own psyches, the lives that they lead.

And, as I've said before, simply because a story, a myth, is set and centered around historical figures and places does not necessarily make the story history itself. Vampire mythology grew up around an anctual historical figure, but that does not mean that vampires are real. That does not make it history. Just because there really is a New York City which holds a parade sponsored by Macy's department store, and there really was a Mr. Macy and a Mr. Gimble doesn't make A Miracle on 34th Street history. You are the one whose knowledge is incomplete but THINKS it is complete.

Fables have no power. But the Gospel DOES have power, and it changes men's lives DAILY on this planet. People are healed, liberated, renewed, and the power of God goes forth to touch men's lives.

If you have "knowledge" but no power, then it is clear that the knowledge you posess is incomplete. I have seen this power with my own eyes, have prayed the prayer of faith and watched people recover from things that should have killed them.

If there was no power in the Gospel, then it wouldn't be the message of God.

If you have adopted a powerless idea, drop it and have the humility to believe what God has said, and you WILL know His power, His Word, and most importantly you will know Him.
Fables hold no power? Wow. Your eyes really are closed to reality, aren't they? You'd better get out there and tell the millions of people who are just as moved by their mythology as you are by ours that. You'd better tell all the Star Wars freaks, Trekkies, and Matrix junkies that they aren't allowed to be moved by those fables. You'd better get out there and stand in the way of millions of Hindu and Buddhist pilgrims because their myths hold no power for you. Their myths don't speak to you so that renders them powerless (to you) and therefor false (for you). They are very true, and very powerful for them. I don't think I'll ever be able to wrap my mind around the outright arrogance of your attitude. Utter and baldfaced arrogance.

Quoted: Because the Gospel is NOT a myth. It is the revealed Word of God, and is the power of salvation. Your very words condemn any claim to Christ you could make.

So then Where is this in history?

When Herod kills all boys in and around Bethlehem that are two years old and under. Such a massacre would certainly have been noted by contemporary historians. Yet not even Josephus, who documented Herod's life in detail, mentioned this event.

Mathew 2:16

2:16 Then Herod, when he saw that he was mocked of the wise men, was exceeding wroth, and sent forth, and slew all the children that were in Bethlehem, and in all the coasts thereof, from two years old and under, according to the time which he had diligently enquired of the wise men.

Also note that Jesus is incorrect when he says that the mustard seed is the smallest seed. (The epiphytic orchids have the smallest seeds.) And since there are no trees in the mustard family, mustard seeds do not grow into trees large enough to support bird nests.

Mathew 13
13:31 Another parable put he forth unto them, saying, The kingdom of heaven is like to a grain of mustard seed, which a man took, and sowed in his field:

13:32 Which indeed is the least of all seeds: but when it is grown, it is the greatest among herbs, and becometh a tree, so that the birds of the air come and lodge in the branches thereof.

Christ is not a myth, His Gospel is not a myth, His Word is not a myth and His power is most certainly not a myth.

If Christianity is NOT a myth it is then a lie? I only ask because if the metaphor was to be taken literally its holes become too apparent to make it believable. I mean was Adam a Neamdethal, Cro-Magnon, Homo-sapien? which? But however if you take these things as they were intended as mythology then the real message can get through...

But until you let go of the darkness in your own willful heart, you will never know the Truth for yourself. At least not until it is too late.

Let me ask you, if you do not mind. What is a metaphor? Could you give me an example of one?

The pharisees WATCHED Jesus heal men, and yet they sought to destroy Him because they refused His council, and rejected His power, attributing it to the work of Satan. They had prayed for the messiah, and when Christ came they rejected Him because they had THEIR OWN ideas about the messiah, ideas Jesus didn't fit. So when they saw Christ standing before them, they rejected Him because He wasn't what they wanted. And they received the price of despising the Son of God.

The pharisees are still here just not where you think!

Quoted: You will never, ever, and under no circumstance, hear me deny the power of the Gospel. Never. It is, indeed, powerful. It's supposed to be. It's designed that way. This particular myth cycle did for you exactly what it's supposed to do. It touched you down deep in your psyche. That's precicely what it's supposed to do.

The Gospel has indeed reached inside the deepest part of my soul and has made a difference. But some internal "myth" theory did not deliver a friend from the brink of death a couple of weeks ago. The prayers of faith offered for him out of hearts of compassion and standing on the promise of healing in God's Word brought healing to his body.

The power of the attonement made for sin and healing by Christ Jesus is no myth.

The Christian myth cycle has that power for you. That's a wonderful thing. It's supposed to be powerful. It's supposed to be transformative. It's doing in you exactly what it's meant to do. It is not, however, meant to work for everyone. It just won't work for everyone. Different cultures, different societies, need different myths. They need myths which address their own psyches, the lives that they lead.

That is utterly false. This power didn't work for me alone. This same Jesus has manifested His grace and power in the lives of every tribe, tongue, and nation on this planet. From the deepest heart of Africa, to the jails of China and the Middle east, to the Polynesian islands, there are untold millions who have placed their faith in Him, and have not been ashamed. They have not believed "carefully devised fables" but have seen the power of God with their own eyes.

Being wiser than most, they understand that the true word of the Living God has power behind it. As a result, they and their loved ones have been healed, delivered, and saved. Not by the gods and ideas they had before, but by the Resurrected Christ and His Spirit who is in this world.

Many in countries like Indonesia and China risk death daily because of their faith in the Gospel, and they willingly subject themselves to degradation and threat without so much as a response. Their taxes are raised, their property often confiscated, their family often completely rejects them.

They do not risk this because the Gospel is a nice story. They have seen for themselves who Jesus is, and they seek Him before everything else, counting it but light afflictions even when they are murdered because of His name. The Gospel's truth is not a high-minded philosophical idea to them, and is not calmly discussed with dispassion. The Gospel is literally the Word of the Living God, and there is evidence of the miraculous in their life to confirm it as the Truth of God.

Fables hold no power? Wow. Your eyes really are closed to reality, aren't they? You'd better get out there and tell the millions of people who are just as moved by their mythology as you are by ours that. You'd better tell all the Star Wars freaks, Trekkies, and Matrix junkies that they aren't allowed to be moved by those fables. You'd better get out there and stand in the way of millions of Hindu and Buddhist pilgrims because their myths hold no power for you. Their myths don't speak to you so that renders them powerless (to you) and therefor false (for you). They are very true, and very powerful for them. I don't think I'll ever be able to wrap my mind around the outright arrogance of your attitude. Utter and baldfaced arrogance.

I am not merely "moved" by the Gospel. Star Trek never healed a single person. The Matrix does not have the power to free people from sin.

The power of Christ and the Holy Spirit DAILY heals people that are untreatable, raises people from the dead, delivers hardcore addicts INSTANTLY from the drugs that have enslaved them, and performs wonders that science can only look at with mouth agape.

Jesus' status as Messiah was known because He fulfilled prophecy, and because He was clothed in the power of the Living God. His Apostles performed EVERY SINGLE miracle that He did after His resurrection and the subsequent sending of the Holy Spirit. It wasn't just for a series of ideas that the early church and Christians today face torture and death. It was for the reality of Christ that they laid down their lives.

They didn't die in glorious battles, and didn't think it was their place to visit vengance on their tormentors. They faced torture and death without retribution, without glorifying themselves because they esteemed the Truth of Christ more than their own lives.

The world was not worthy of people like that.

They didn't die for "myth". They didn't abandon the gods and systems they already had for new "ideas". They didn't subject themselves to all that they faced because religion was a nice, cute, manageable package of ideas. They encountered the message and power of Jesus Christ, Son of the Living God, and their lives were changed in ways we will never know until Heaven, should we be found as faithful as they were and lay hold on eternal life.

Quoted: So then Where is this in history? When Herod kills all boys in and around Bethlehem that are two years old and under. Such a massacre would certainly have been noted by contemporary historians. Yet not even Josephus, who documented Herod's life in detail, mentioned this event.

The Hittites weren't found in history outside the Bible either. At least not for a while.

Are you saying we have a perfect accounting of all aincient history and can determine without error, or are there still discoveries to be made? Has all the evidence in existence about the past been discovered and accurately understood, or is there still much to learn?

As the Bible has proven accurate historically over and over again, it will again. Using man's imperfect knowledge as a measure of the veracity of Revealed Truth is just plain silly.

Also note that Jesus is incorrect when he says that the mustard seed is the smallest seed. (The epiphytic orchids have the smallest seeds.) And since there are no trees in the mustard family, mustard seeds do not grow into trees large enough to support bird nests. Mathew 13 13:31 Another parable put he forth unto them, saying, The kingdom of heaven is like to a grain of mustard seed, which a man took, and sowed in his field: 13:32 Which indeed is the least of all seeds: but when it is grown, it is the greatest among herbs, and becometh a tree, so that the birds of the air come and lodge in the branches thereof.

You have GOT to be kidding me.

When John the Baptist is said to have eaten locusts, did he really eat the bugs or did he eat a type of nut that existed in the day and were also called locusts?

Is there only one kind of mustard plant in the world? Do no varieties of mustard grow to any size large enough to support birds? Not even tiny birds which weigh fractions of a pound and can fit in the palm of your hand?

Talk about straining out a gnat and swallowing a camel. If the best you can do is argue about seed size, then you are really in a corner.

If Christianity is NOT a myth it is then a lie? I only ask because if the metaphor was to be taken literally its holes become too apparent to make it believable. I mean was Adam a Neamdethal, Cro-Magnon, Homo-sapien? which? But however if you take these things as they were intended as mythology then the real message can get through...

Your assumption is that the Bible is "mythology". Do you even know what the word "myth" means? Among the meanings of the word "myth" are:

# A fiction or half-truth, especially one that forms part of an ideology.
# A fictitious story, person, or thing: “German artillery superiority on the Western Front was a myth”

A myth is a lie. Period.

Christ and His Gospel are TRUTH. The appearance of some bones that somebody theorizes (without ANY experimental validation, mind you) formed a pre-human anscestor does not change TRUTH. The most basic mechanism of evolution is UNOBSERVABLE, and the mechanism that origniated life is INEXPLICABLE by science. All that exists are some bones and a hypothesis that tries to explain their existence, and that admittedly imperfectly by honest biologists, and yet this is your basis for disbelieving Revealed Truth?

Again, your faith is in man, and man's ideas rather than God. The evolutionists can offer no better witness to the creation of the world than can a Biblical creationist, even much less so, because I can find scientists who can poke holes in every aspect of evolutionary theory, but no hard science can discount the Biblical story of creation. By the definition of science, evolution is a hypothesis, a best guess. You would rather trust man's "best guess" than Revealed Truth?

Let me ask you, if you do not mind. What is a metaphor? Could you give me an example of one?

So we can have more arguements over the size of seeds as a proof of the Gospel's incorrectness?  

The pharisees are still here just not where you think!

How do you even know what pharisees are if the Gospel is incorrect? How do you have the audacity to discredit the Gospel with one breath, and then turn around and try to use it as proof of your ideas in the next?

Hey John Wayne 777, lighten up man........just a little.  First of all, don't confuse LSD, Mushrooms and Marijuana with man made, addictive narcotics such as Heroin, Oxycontin and the other million stimulants and depressants known to man.  Alcohol has also destroyed more lives than LSD, shrooms and pot combined......fact!  Allow me to inform you first that I'm a born again christian who believes that Jesus Christ is THE savior!  I also believed in God before I took psychedelics and believed in God even stronger after I took them.  Set and setting is the key also to having a positive psychedelic experience.  I would generally take the psychedelic in a natural setting (woods, prarie or beach) and as I got deeper into it, I could see in detail never seen before,  the beauty and utter perfection of the Lords creation!  Every experience ended up being an affirmation of my faith.  No priest at a podium giving a homily could ever do that.  John Wayne, there is a reason why people have been injesting psychedelics since the dawn of man, you just haven't figured it out yet because your world is black and white.  Hey, I gotta ask you, why John Wayne and 777 from the book of Revelation?  God Bless!

Quoted: The Hittites weren't found in history outside the Bible either. At least not for a while. Are you saying we have a perfect accounting of all aincient history and can determine without error, or are there still discoveries to be made? Has all the evidence in existence about the past been discovered and accurately understood, or is there still much to learn? As the Bible has proven accurate historically over and over again, it will again. Using man's imperfect knowledge as a measure of the veracity of Revealed Truth is just plain silly.

But this myth is found in different forms in many other religions also? Many of which are older than Christianity, Why?  

As far as accuracy time and time again you seem to make excuses for the inaccuracies in your previous post. (the Mustard seed which I will address below).


But let me ask you as you surely can not hide a mountain?


Matthew

4:8 Again, the devil taketh him up into an exceeding high mountain, and sheweth him all the kingdoms of the world, and the glory of them



Unless the world was flat this is not possible, also where is this exceedingly high mountain today?

You have GOT to be kidding me. When John the Baptist is said to have eaten locusts, did he really eat the bugs or did he eat a type of nut that existed in the day and were also called locusts? Is there only one kind of mustard plant in the world? Do no varieties of mustard grow to any size large enough to support birds? Not even tiny birds which weigh fractions of a pound and can fit in the palm of your hand? Talk about straining out a gnat and swallowing a camel. If the best you can do is argue about seed size, then you are really in a corner.

So then words have different meanings than literal translations in the bible you say? Thats what I have been trying to explain...

As for the mustard plant supporting Birds of flight. Show me one...


Mathew
13:32 Which indeed is the least of all seeds: but when it is grown, it is the greatest among herbs, and becometh a tree, so that the birds of the air come and lodge in the branches thereof.


Show me a mustard plant that grown to the size of a tree that has branches.....


Its metaphor.....

Your assumption is that the Bible is "mythology". Do you even know what the word "myth" means? Among the meanings of the word "myth" are: # A fiction or half-truth, especially one that forms part of an ideology. # A fictitious story, person, or thing: “German artillery superiority on the Western Front was a myth” A myth is a lie. Period. Christ and His Gospel are TRUTH. The appearance of some bones that somebody theorizes (without ANY experimental validation, mind you) formed a pre-human anscestor does not change TRUTH. The most basic mechanism of evolution is UNOBSERVABLE, and the mechanism that origniated life is INEXPLICABLE by science. All that exists are some bones and a hypothesis that tries to explain their existence, and that admittedly imperfectly by honest biologists, and yet this is your basis for disbelieving Revealed Truth?

Oh I believe a truth. I believe the bible conveys a message that we have to go within ourselves to see the light. I believe that myth and metaphor is used to describe the undescribable and that you and others are holding on to a literal translation that fits in with a church and doctrine dominated power that truly comes not of God but of man.... Again how can another tell me what a milkshake tastes like? How can another man tell me of God if I don't experience the truth within?

Again, your faith is in man, and man's ideas rather than God. The evolutionists can offer no better witness to the creation of the world than can a Biblical creationist, even much less so, because I can find scientists who can poke holes in every aspect of evolutionary theory, but no hard science can discount the Biblical story of creation. By the definition of science, evolution is a hypothesis, a best guess. You would rather trust man's "best guess" than Revealed Truth?

Really? What year was adam created? Was he a white man? was he from the mid east? was he a modern homo-sapien? what of the Girl... Would not then Adam and Eave be considered "Virgin born" then? And as for the revealed truth. This truth can only be revealed from within yourself to see that there is no seperation from you or God.... everything, everyone, each one is all....

Let me ask you, if you do not mind. What is a metaphor? Could you give me an example of one? So we can have more arguements over the size of seeds as a proof of the Gospel's incorrectness?

I am sorry I am discussing not arguing...  My different beliefs are just different than yours. You see holes in what I say I see holes in what you say... Standard stuff... I only ask this so I can better explain what I am saying. But, nevermind..

How do you even know what pharisees are if the Gospel is incorrect? How do you have the audacity to discredit the Gospel with one breath, and then turn around and try to use it as proof of your ideas in the next?

Because it proves the metaphor. Who were the Pharisees? Can you not see them in modern Christian churches? Social activists, political activists, taking stands on social issues... The job of the priest is to help others look within themselves to find God not to get you to vote for John Kerry etc, etc.

Quoted: Hey John Wayne 777, lighten up man........just a little.  First of all, don't confuse LSD, Mushrooms and Marijuana with man made, addictive narcotics such as Heroin, Oxycontin and the other million stimulants and depressants known to man.

How they are made has little importance. What they do to our minds and bodies IS important. Drunkenness is a sin.

Alcohol has also destroyed more lives than LSD, shrooms and pot combined......fact!

No arguements here.

Allow me to inform you first that I'm a born again christian who believes that Jesus Christ is THE savior!  I also believed in God before I took psychedelics and believed in God even stronger after I took them.

Dear Jesus, please save us from what is about to occur....

Set and setting is the key also to having a positive psychedelic experience.  I would generally take the psychedelic in a natural setting (woods, prarie or beach) and as I got deeper into it, I could see in detail never seen before,  the beauty and utter perfection of the Lords creation!  Every experience ended up being an affirmation of my faith.

Please show me where in scripture we are directed to experience God through psychadelic drugs. Please demonstrate to me a single example where Christ condoned such things. Please show me ANY early church tradition that included doing what you are proposing.

No priest at a podium giving a homily could ever do that.  John Wayne, there is a reason why people have been injesting psychedelics since the dawn of man, you just haven't figured it out yet because your world is black and white.  Hey, I gotta ask you, why John Wayne and 777 from the book of Revelation?  God Bless!

Yes, there are things drugs do that a man preaching the solid Word of God won't do, such as lead to addiction, kill you, etcetera. And indeed people have been abusing mind altering substances since the days of Noah.

AND IT WAS ALWAYS SIN!

Drugs don't lead you to Christ, and there is absolutely NO PRECIDENT IN THE BIBLE OR CHRISTIAN HISTORY TO SAY THAT DRUGS ARE HOW WE EXPERIENCE GOD. We experience God through the Holy Spirit, not through shrooms or LSD.

Christ doesn't mix with Timothy Leary. God is a King, and as such He has laws. There are things that are acceptable in His eyes, and things that are not. Drugs don't lead us to Christ, and they do not allow us to experience God. Christ did not go around Judea smoking weed or handing out shrooms. His message was NOT toke out and turn on.

His message was righteousness and obedience to God in ALL things.

I picked John Wayne because he is an icon who reminds me a bit of my dear sainted grandfather, and 777 is actually a derivative of the original 77 that I used in honor of the year he made his last film, The Shootist. I found out later that I remembered it wrong, and it was actually run in 76.

Anyway, I lost my account password for the 77, and fixed that by making a new account with another 7 on it. Thus the 777.

Sorry to disappoint, but it has nothing to do with eschatology whatsoever....

Quoted: A myth is a lie. Period.

Once again..

What is a metaphor and can you provide an example of one?


Hey WaWaTusi.... considering what you said you were reading... Does the quoted sound familiar? Page 1.

Quoted: Quoted: A myth is a lie. Period. Once again.. What is a metaphor and can you provide an example of one? Hey WaWaTusi.... considering what you said you were reading... Does the quoted sound familiar? Page 1.

Absolutley.....

Quoted: But this myth is found in different forms in many other religions also? Many of which are older than Christianity, Why?

Christ is found in lots of older myths as He is revealed in scripture? Really? Show me one.

As far as accuracy time and time again you seem to make excuses for the inaccuracies in your previous post. (the Mustard seed which I will address below).

I didn't make any "excuses". I asked YOU which of the 3,000 plus varieties of Mustard plant in existence Jesus was speaking of. Because there are mustard plants that grow from tiny seeds in the middle east that can become large bushes up to 6 feet tall, more than large enough to support birds. (Have you ever even held a swallow before?)

The point of the seed parable is POTENTIAL.

But let me ask you as you surely can not hide a mountain? Matthew 4:8 Again, the devil taketh him up into an exceeding high mountain, and sheweth him all the kingdoms of the world, and the glory of them Unless the world was flat this is not possible, also where is this exceedingly high mountain today?

What exactly are you claiming? I can take you up to a mountain and show you the glory of the Babylonian empire, the Roman empire, the most beautiful and rich places in this world, and show you riches beyond your wild imagination.

All I need is a DVD player.

And yet a fallen angel is incapable of doing the same thing?

So then words have different meanings than literal translations in the bible you say? Thats what I have been trying to explain... As for the mustard plant supporting Birds of flight. Show me one...

Ugh. The point of the locust quote was that John the Baptist ate locusts. Now exactly what those locusts were (either bugs or nuts, I lean towards nuts because bugs were unclean according to Hebrew tradition) it doesn't change the message of the Bible or the preaching of John the Baptist.

Neither would a mustard seed contraversy change the message of the Gospel:

"3If anyone teaches false doctrines and does not agree to the sound instruction of our Lord Jesus Christ and to godly teaching, 4he is conceited and understands nothing. He has an unhealthy interest in controversies and quarrels about words that result in envy, strife, malicious talk, evil suspicions 5and constant friction between men of corrupt mind, who have been robbed of the truth"

1st Timothy 6

Show me a mustard plant that grown to the size of a tree that has branches..... Its metaphor.....

Black mustard plants can grow to be 5 or 6 feet tall, and they grew wild all over the place in Jesus' day, forming bushes and thickets when several plants grew together. And if you have ever seen a picture of one, you would know that it can support a swallow easily.

Of course the parable is metaphor. The kingdom of God is not literally a mustard seed. The mustard seed is meant to show POTENTIAL, as all the seed parables do. (There are MANY parables about seeds in Jesus' teachings, which makes a lot of sense when talking to mainly agrarian people who are familiar with growing things)

BUT:

The fact that Jesus used parables does not impact
1. His divinity
2. His sinless life
3. His power to heal
4. His crucifixion
5. His resurrection

And if you look at Jesus' parables closely, you will see that He explained them to His disciples, so we KNOW what they mean.

Oh I believe a truth. I believe the bible conveys a message that we have to go within ourselves to see the light. I believe that myth and metaphor is used to describe the undescribable and that you and others are holding on to a literal translation that fits in with a church and doctrine dominated power that truly comes not of God but of man.... Again how can another tell me what a milkshake tastes like? How can another man tell me of God if I don't experience the truth within?

You routinely criticise the divine inspiration of the Bible, and continually grab snippets out of context to prove your point.

The Bible IS our guide to what is true, and what is false.

" Beloved, do not believe every spirit, but test the spirits, whether they are of God; because many false prophets have gone out into the world. 2By this you know the Spirit of God: Every spirit that confesses that Jesus Christ has come in the flesh is of God, 3and every spirit that does not confess that[a] Jesus Christ has come in the flesh is not of God. And this is the spirit of the Antichrist, which you have heard was coming, and is now already in the world."

1st John 4

The Bible is our way of knowing the truth from the lies, and you reject it. What is left for a man who rejects the truth EXCEPT a lie?

Really? What year was adam created? Was he a white man? was he from the mid east? was he a modern homo-sapien? what of the Girl... Would not then Adam and Eave be considered "Virgin born" then? And as for the revealed truth. This truth can only be revealed from within yourself to see that there is no seperation from you or God.... everything, everyone, each one is all....

God did not give an EXHAUSTIVE account of creation, for we aren't capable of handling all that information. But He did give an ACCURATE account of creation.

Adam was not "born" at all, for he never came from a woman. God formed him with His own hands, and breathed into Adam the breath of life. The idea of Adam being virgin born is just plain stupidity, brought on by your propensity to try and stretch the scripture to say what it does not say.

If there was no seperation from God, there would be no need of a sacrifice for sin. Christ's death would have been un-necessary, and the blood of attonement would be useless bloodshed.

Is God in the terrorists who are murdering innocents? Is he in the tree outside my window? How about in my mouse? Is God in the heroin that people use to get high? In the bullet that they use to kill themselves? In the money that is used to pay for forced child prostitutes?

God-in-all indeed.

I am sorry I am discussing not arguing...  My different beliefs are just different than yours. You see holes in what I say I see holes in what you say... Standard stuff... I only ask this so I can better explain what I am saying. But, nevermind..

I understand exactly what you are trying to say. That because PART of the Bible uses metaphor, that ALL of it must then be metaphor.

Horse poop.

History books call George Washington the "Father of America." That is metaphor, for he did not literally become the genetic father of every person in the United States. So does that mean that EVERYTHING they record about Washington is metaphor?

NO!

He DID live, he WAS General of the Army, he WAS a key figure in the founding of our nation and he DID play a great role in shaping the office of President.

Similarly, the Bible is quite clear when it is using metaphor and when it is not. Christ DID exist, He WAS crucified in substitution for the sins of man, He WAS resurrected on the third day, and His Gospel IS true to this day.

He used parables to illustrate LITERAL TRUTHS in terms we could easily understand, much like we use metaphor to teach children that Washington was a crucial figure in the founding of our nation, a man to whom we owe great defference.

Because it proves the metaphor. Who were the Pharisees? Can you not see them in modern Christian churches? Social activists, political activists, taking stands on social issues... The job of the priest is to help others look within themselves to find God not to get you to vote for John Kerry etc, etc.

So Jesus never spoke out about issues of the day? He never spoke about a corrupt religious and political system that had perverted the intents and laws of God? He never said that the pharisees had ignored the "weightier matters of justice and the law" with their obsession about TINY OUT OF CONTEXT SCRIPTURES?

There are modern day pharisees, people who use the gospel as a weapon to opress, and people who fixate on tiny parts of the Gospel while IGNORING THE SYSTEMATIC THEOLOGY AND REVELATION OF GOD WITHIN THE PAGES OF THE BIBLE because it allows them to get away with what they want to get away with.

The job of the church is to reveal Christ. This means to reach out and help the widow and the orphan, but also to command that those who can work OUGHT to eat the bread of their own labor. It means to reach out to those trapped in drugs, alcohol and sex, but also to PREACH THE RIGHTEOUSNESS OF GOD.

Your religion demands NOTHING of you. You owe no obedience or submission to any authority in heaven or on earth, leaving you free to do as you wish to do and rationalize it in your belief system.

Jesus preached that we are to take up our cross and follow Him. He said that anyone who seeks to save his life will loose it, but that he who looses his life for Christ's sake will find it.

You lack even the most basic understanding of who Jesus is, what His ministry was about, and what the true nature of the Kingdom is because you reject God's wisdom in favor of your own.

If you are unwilling to see truth, then why bother trying to debate it with me? If you want to cling to your jell-o theology, (everything is see through and pretty darn shaky) then by all means do so, and reap the rewards that go along with trampling the Son of God.

But why seek for me to validate your system? If you are solid in your foundation because you have studied and found your "own" truth, why try to get me to validate it?

I am directed in scripture to contend with the faith and to hold fast to proper doctrine, and I post responses to you so that others who are reading will see the faith once delivered to the saints. But why do you need someone to agree with you?

Not everything is in the bible John and also psychedelics are not naturally native to the middle east.  That is probably why Jesus never talked about it.  Also, if it was in the bible, one of the early Popes would most likely have had it removed because it didn't conform to their dogma.  Same reason they removed the Gospel according to Mary, the Gospel according to Timothy and most importantly, the Gospel according to Jesus Christ, it didn't fit into their dogma of fear!

Quoted: Not everything is in the bible John and also psychedelics are not naturally native to the middle east.  That is probably why Jesus never talked about it.  Also, if it was in the bible, one of the early Popes would most likely have had it removed because it didn't conform to their dogma.  Same reason they removed the Gospel according to Mary, the Gospel according to Timothy and most importantly, the Gospel according to Jesus Christ, it didn't fit into their dogma of fear!

Again we are confronted with someone who doesn't know their Bible history. Like how the canon of scripture existed prior to there being ANY popes...

And I am sure that the Bible goes to great lengths to condemn drunkenness, but it would CERTAINLY be just fine with dropping shrooms.

The Bible, after all, only speaks of other people's pet sins. Not yours or mine, right?

Brain....throbbing.....eye.....stabbing pain in right eye.....blood...trickling....out of left ear.......

What about Jesus turning water to wine at the wedding of Cana (spelling probably incorrect).  I'm sure everyone stayed sober because Christ was there

There is old wine, and new wine. We don't know which He turned it into.

But even if He turned it into old wine, there is no evidence of Him getting drunk, His disciples getting drunk, or of Him ever saying that getting trashed was perfectly OK by Him.

Brother John_Wayne, shake the dust off and move on.

Quoted: Quoted: A myth is a lie. Period. Once again.. What is a metaphor and can you provide an example of one?

Well?

Quoted: There is old wine, and new wine. We don't know which He turned it into. But even if He turned it into old wine, there is no evidence of Him getting drunk, His disciples getting drunk, or of Him ever saying that getting trashed was perfectly OK by Him.

[Acts 2:13] Others mocking said, These men are full of new wine.

[Acts 2:14] But Peter, standing up with the eleven, lifted up his voice, and said unto them, Ye men of Judaea, and all ye that dwell at Jerusalem, be this known unto you, and hearken to my words:

[Acts 2:15] For these are not drunken, as ye suppose, seeing it is but the third hour of the day.

Well, certainly there is no evidence that they got drunk before 9 in the morning....

Quoted: Christ is found in lots of older myths as He is revealed in scripture? Really? Show me one.

I was specifically talking about the Killing of young chidleren by the tyrant king. but since you asked.

Zorasterism, the persian religion at the time of the Exile (after the destruction of Israel and before the second temple) is probably the source for such concepts as the ressurection of the dead, and Satan (dualism). Prior to this influence, the Jews regarded the dead as existing in a sort of `limbo' (much like the greek netherworld); and when things went bad it was because God was upset with them.

Mithras. In some ways the life and deeds of Mithras come across almost as a precurser to that of Jesus: he was born of a virgin, had 12 disciples, there was a `last supper', was (self) sacrificed, and returned from the dead. Mithraism developed to explain a complex astronomical problem, so it does have a solar aspect. It was a major sect in the near east for a period of some centuries prior to the time of Jesus (the romans tangled with several kings in the region who incorporated Mithras into their names). Tarsus, Pauls hometown, was a major center of the Mithras group. At least one major Mithraic holiday (December 25) made it into christianity (that was originally Mithras's birthday). Certain terms and rituals used in Constantines church originated with Mithraism.

I didn't make any "excuses". I asked YOU which of the 3,000 plus varieties of Mustard plant in existence Jesus was speaking of. Because there are mustard plants that grow from tiny seeds in the middle east that can become large bushes up to 6 feet tall, more than large enough to support birds. (Have you ever even held a swallow before?) The point of the seed parable is POTENTIAL.

Show me one.


This is also the point of myth.

But let me ask you as you surely can not hide a mountain? What exactly are you claiming? I can take you up to a mountain and show you the glory of the Babylonian empire, the Roman empire, the most beautiful and rich places in this world, and show you riches beyond your wild imagination. All I need is a DVD player. And yet a fallen angel is incapable of doing the same thing?

Then "sheweth him me all the kingdoms of the world, and the glory of them" from one single mountain top in the Middle East.

Ugh. The point of the locust quote was that John the Baptist ate locusts. Now exactly what those locusts were (either bugs or nuts, I lean towards nuts because bugs were unclean according to Hebrew tradition) it doesn't change the message of the Bible or the preaching of John the Baptist. Neither would a mustard seed contraversy change the message of the Gospel: "3If anyone teaches false doctrines and does not agree to the sound instruction of our Lord Jesus Christ and to godly teaching, 4he is conceited and understands nothing. He has an unhealthy interest in controversies and quarrels about words that result in envy, strife, malicious talk, evil suspicions 5and constant friction between men of corrupt mind, who have been robbed of the truth" 1st Timothy 6

So I can not question what is presented towards me? I am to believe what fallable men assembled as an infallable truth?

Black mustard plants can grow to be 5 or 6 feet tall, and they grew wild all over the place in Jesus' day, forming bushes and thickets when several plants grew together. And if you have ever seen a picture of one, you would know that it can support a swallow easily.

"One major argument against Brassica for the "mustard" of the Bible is based on the Biblical statements concerning its becoming a "tree", and "the fowls of the air lodged in the branches of it". Supporters of this argument claim that the mustard plant never becomes a great tree, and it would not be sturdy enough for birds to nest. In rebuttal, it has been pointed out that we must realize that much of the language in the Bible is figurative, and that indeed small sparrow-like birds perched temporarily on the branches of the mature mustard plant to feed on its seeds. Even today birds are very fond of mustard seed. Guatama Buddha also told a parable about the mustard seed, and in India, mustard is the symbol of reproductive generation.


Not NEST in....

Of course the parable is metaphor. The kingdom of God is not literally a mustard seed. The mustard seed is meant to show POTENTIAL, as all the seed parables do. (There are MANY parables about seeds in Jesus' teachings, which makes a lot of sense when talking to mainly agrarian people who are familiar with growing things) BUT: The fact that Jesus used parables does not impact 1. His divinity 2. His sinless life 3. His power to heal 4. His crucifixion 5. His resurrection And if you look at Jesus' parables closely, you will see that He explained them to His disciples, so we KNOW what they mean.

So Jesus spoke in almost a myth like way? hmm....

You routinely criticise the divine inspiration of the Bible, and continually grab snippets out of context to prove your point. The Bible IS our guide to what is true, and what is false. " Beloved, do not believe every spirit, but test the spirits, whether they are of God; because many false prophets have gone out into the world. 2By this you know the Spirit of God: Every spirit that confesses that Jesus Christ has come in the flesh is of God, 3and every spirit that does not confess that[a] Jesus Christ has come in the flesh is not of God. And this is the spirit of the Antichrist, which you have heard was coming, and is now already in the world." 1st John 4 The Bible is our way of knowing the truth from the lies, and you reject it. What is left for a man who rejects the truth EXCEPT a lie?

I never said I reject it. I INTERPRET it differently than you...

God did not give an EXHAUSTIVE account of creation, for we aren't capable of handling all that information. But He did give an ACCURATE account of creation. Adam was not "born" at all, for he never came from a woman. God formed him with His own hands, and breathed into Adam the breath of life. The idea of Adam being virgin born is just plain stupidity, brought on by your propensity to try and stretch the scripture to say what it does not say. If there was no seperation from God, there would be no need of a sacrifice for sin. Christ's death would have been un-necessary, and the blood of attonement would be useless bloodshed. Is God in the terrorists who are murdering innocents? Is he in the tree outside my window? How about in my mouse? Is God in the heroin that people use to get high? In the bullet that they use to kill themselves? In the money that is used to pay for forced child prostitutes? God-in-all indeed.

God in alll... Denied by some, separated by dogma and doctrine in others, Man kills for man and his doctrines of God, Man does not kill for the God within.

I understand exactly what you are trying to say. That because PART of the Bible uses metaphor, that ALL of it must then be metaphor. Horse poop.

But then what is metapor and what is literal? Who decides that? Remember you can take up posion and serpents right? Also you do not need medical attention for the lord will provide right?

History books call George Washington the "Father of America." That is metaphor, for he did not literally become the genetic father of every person in the United States. So does that mean that EVERYTHING they record about Washington is metaphor? NO! He DID live, he WAS General of the Army, he WAS a key figure in the founding of our nation and he DID play a great role in shaping the office of President. Similarly, the Bible is quite clear when it is using metaphor and when it is not. Christ DID exist, He WAS crucified in substitution for the sins of man, He WAS resurrected on the third day, and His Gospel IS true to this day. He used parables to illustrate LITERAL TRUTHS in terms we could easily understand, much like we use metaphor to teach children that Washington was a crucial figure in the founding of our nation, a man to whom we owe great defference.

So If George Washington said that "I am the father of America" or George Bush says that "America is a beacon of liberty in the world" or Reagan says "We ARE that shining city upon the hill".... Could that be metaphor, I think so. COuld not then when Jesus says "I am the truth and the light" he could also be saying (as was common practise and still is among certain teachers) to say "I am" something to relate the ideal that I to am "truth and the light" just as we all are?

So Jesus never spoke out about issues of the day? He never spoke about a corrupt religious and political system that had perverted the intents and laws of God? He never said that the pharisees had ignored the "weightier matters of justice and the law" with their obsession about TINY OUT OF CONTEXT SCRIPTURES?

Could he not have also been warning us against seeking this light in others? Because others can corrupt?

There are modern day pharisees, people who use the gospel as a weapon to opress, and people who fixate on tiny parts of the Gospel while IGNORING THE SYSTEMATIC THEOLOGY AND REVELATION OF GOD WITHIN THE PAGES OF THE BIBLE because it allows them to get away with what they want to get away with.

Like starting wars or selling salvation?

The job of the church is to reveal Christ. This means to reach out and help the widow and the orphan, but also to command that those who can work OUGHT to eat the bread of their own labor. It means to reach out to those trapped in drugs, alcohol and sex, but also to PREACH THE RIGHTEOUSNESS OF GOD.

Does it also say to preach politics? Social policy stances? Things that have nothing to do with salvation?

Your religion demands NOTHING of you. You owe no obedience or submission to any authority in heaven or on earth, leaving you free to do as you wish to do and rationalize it in your belief system.

Because I have knowledge I owe to the universe to remain in harmony with it!

Jesus preached that we are to take up our cross and follow Him. He said that anyone who seeks to save his life will loose it, but that he who looses his life for Christ's sake will find it. You lack even the most basic understanding of who Jesus is, what His ministry was about, and what the true nature of the Kingdom is because you reject God's wisdom in favor of your own.

Literally or figurativly? This first sentence of yours sounds like Buddhism 101....


I see the true nature of the Kingdom. Its right here!

If you are unwilling to see truth, then why bother trying to debate it with me? If you want to cling to your jell-o theology, (everything is see through and pretty darn shaky) then by all means do so, and reap the rewards that go along with trampling the Son of God. But why seek for me to validate your system? If you are solid in your foundation because you have studied and found your "own" truth, why try to get me to validate it?

Not really looking to Validate, just trying to discuss here among friends. Your answers help me on my search and path....

I am directed in scripture to contend with the faith and to hold fast to proper doctrine, and I post responses to you so that others who are reading will see the faith once delivered to the saints. But why do you need someone to agree with you?

You don't have to agree with me. We are both ok my man....

That passage in Acts was speaking of the outpouring of the Holy Spirit.

Some attributed the 120 speaking in tongues as a result of them being so drunk they were babbling, which is why Peter explained that what they heard and saw was that which was spoken by the prophet Joel.

Later on in Ephesians 5, Paul gives one of the many exhortations against drunkennes:

"18Do not get drunk on wine, which leads to debauchery. Instead, be filled with the Spirit."

Quoted: That passage in Acts was speaking of the outpouring of the Holy Spirit. Some attributed the 120 speaking in tongues as a result of them being so drunk they were babbling, which is why Peter explained that what they heard and saw was that which was spoken by the prophet Joel. Later on in Ephesians 5, Paul gives one of the many exhortations against drunkennes: "18Do not get drunk on wine, which leads to debauchery. Instead, be filled with the Spirit."

So the Holy spirit is wine that it is good to get drunk on?  Here wine is good?


But wine is bad and leads to "debauchary"? Here wine is bad?



Which is it?

Quoted: That passage in Acts was speaking of the outpouring of the Holy Spirit. Some attributed the 120 speaking in tongues as a result of them being so drunk they were babbling, which is why Peter explained that what they heard and saw was that which was spoken by the prophet Joel. Later on in Ephesians 5, Paul gives one of the many exhortations against drunkennes: "18Do not get drunk on wine, which leads to debauchery. Instead, be filled with the Spirit."

Note the italics;

[Acts 2:15] For these are not drunken, as ye suppose, seeing it is but the third hour of the day.

To me, this implies that had it been a little later in the day (or in the evening) there might have been cause to believe that they were in their cups.  We agree, by the way that drunkeness is not a good thing.    

What we don't agree on is the goodie two shoes idea that the disciples and Jesus never tied one on.  Your assertions of the form " there's no evidence to the contrary,  thus it must be true" don't merit serious consideration.  There's no evidence that Judas ever took a piss, either, but maybe he did.

Instead, be filled with the Spirit."   I take that as be filled with spirits!!  Doesn't it say in Genesis (don't have a bible handy) something to the effect that God put everything upon the land and saw that it was good.  Psychedelic mushrooms, peyote, marijuana and cocoa leaves are all found in nature.  When man lays his hands upon these and changes them chemically is when they become bad (cocoa leaves to cocaine).  John Wayne 777, are you then saying that the devil placed these upon the land or are you equating these naturally occuring substance with the "forbidden fruit" from the tree of life?

Quoted: Instead, be filled with the Spirit."   I take that as be filled with spirits!!

Why do you think they are called "Spirits" and the Holy ghost is also refered to the Holy "spirit"?



Hmmm.....

Quoted: Quoted: Instead, be filled with the Spirit."   I take that as be filled with spirits!! Why do you think they are called "Spirits" and the Holy ghost is also refered to the Holy "spirit"? Hmmm.....

I say this as seriously as I know how, I would tread carefully.

Mat 12:31  "Therefore I say to you, any sin and blasphemy shall be forgiven people, but blasphemy against the Spirit shall not be forgiven.
Mat 12:32  "Whoever speaks a word against the Son of Man, it shall be forgiven him; but whoever speaks against the Holy Spirit, it shall not be forgiven him, either in this age or in the age to come.


There are many interpretations on what blasphemy of the Holy Spirit means.  You better be real sure that you know what you think you know before treading much further.

Quoted: Note the italics; [Acts 2:15] For these are not drunken, as ye suppose, seeing it is but the third hour of the day. To me, this implies that had it been a little later in the day (or in the evening) there might have been cause to believe that they were in their cups.  We agree, by the way that drunkeness is not a good thing.     What we don't agree on is the goodie two shoes idea that the disciples and Jesus never tied one on.  Your assertions of the form " there's no evidence to the contrary,  thus it must be true" don't merit serious consideration.  There's no evidence that Judas ever took a piss, either, but maybe he did.

You don't have to agree with me. It is right there in black and white:

"19Now the works of the flesh are evident, which are: adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lewdness, 20idolatry, sorcery, hatred, contentions, jealousies, outbursts of wrath, selfish ambitions, dissensions, heresies, 21envy, murders, drunkenness , revelries, and the like; of which I tell you beforehand, just as I also told you in time past, that those who practice such things will not inherit the kingdom of God.

   22But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, 23gentleness, self-control. Against such there is no law. 24And those who are Christ's have crucified the flesh with its passions and desires. 25If we live in the Spirit, let us also walk in the Spirit."

Galatians 5

Christ and the Apostles did NOT get drunk. The early church DID drink alcohol, but they were rebuked for it :

"20When ye come together therefore into one place, this is not to eat the Lord's supper.

  21For in eating every one taketh before other his own supper: and one is hungry, and another is drunken.

  22What? have ye not houses to eat and to drink in? or despise ye the church of God, and shame them that have not? what shall I say to you? shall I praise you in this? I praise you not.

29For he that eateth and drinketh unworthily, eateth and drinketh damnation to himself, not discerning the Lord's body.

  30For this cause many are weak and sickly among you, and many sleep. "

1st Corinthians 11

Mere ingestion of alcohol cannot be argued to be a plain sin from scripture. Drunkenness, however, is plainly condemned in scripture.

[shaking head]

Chris

Quoted: Quoted: Note the italics; [Acts 2:15] For these are not drunken, as ye suppose, seeing it is but the third hour of the day. To me, this implies that had it been a little later in the day (or in the evening) there might have been cause to believe that they were in their cups.  We agree, by the way that drunkeness is not a good thing.     What we don't agree on is the goodie two shoes idea that the disciples and Jesus never tied one on.  Your assertions of the form " there's no evidence to the contrary,  thus it must be true" don't merit serious consideration.  There's no evidence that Judas ever took a piss, either, but maybe he did. You don't have to agree with me. It is right there in black and white: "19Now the works of the flesh are evident, which are: adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lewdness, 20idolatry, sorcery, hatred, contentions, jealousies, outbursts of wrath, selfish ambitions, dissensions, heresies, 21envy, murders, drunkenness , revelries, and the like; of which I tell you beforehand, just as I also told you in time past, that those who practice such things will not inherit the kingdom of God.    22But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, 23gentleness, self-control. Against such there is no law. 24And those who are Christ's have crucified the flesh with its passions and desires. 25If we live in the Spirit, let us also walk in the Spirit." Galatians 5 Christ and the Apostles did NOT get drunk. The early church DID drink alcohol, but they were rebuked for it : "20When ye come together therefore into one place, this is not to eat the Lord's supper.   21For in eating every one taketh before other his own supper: and one is hungry, and another is drunken.   22What? have ye not houses to eat and to drink in? or despise ye the church of God, and shame them that have not? what shall I say to you? shall I praise you in this? I praise you not. 29For he that eateth and drinketh unworthily, eateth and drinketh damnation to himself, not discerning the Lord's body.   30For this cause many are weak and sickly among you, and many sleep. " 1st Corinthians 11 Mere ingestion of alcohol cannot be argued to be a plain sin from scripture. Drunkenness, however, is plainly condemned in scripture.

Well, JW, now that you've explained it that way, I'd certainly be a fool to argue with you.

 

Quoted: Well, JW, now that you've explained it that way, I'd certainly be a fool to argue with you.

Alcohol is one of those rare gray areas in scripture. Drunkenness is clearly portrayed as a sin, but ingestion of alcohol seems to have been a part of normal life for most people of the time. There are fierce theological debates about whether Christ ever touched alcohol, and to whether we should today.

My church takes the stand that alcohol should be abstained from in the persuit of holiness. I don't believe mere ingestion of alcohol to be a mortal sin, but I DO believe God honors us if we would abstain from drinking altogether.

I will abstain because of my membership in my church and my position of authority require me to uphold the standards of the church, and because I believe that avoiding alcohol altogether in this day and age is pleasing to God.

But, as I said earlier, I see no explicit condemnation of ingesting ANY alcohol as a sin, and thus I will not add to what the Bible is silent on. I would certainly encourage abstinence on the matter of drinking, but that is my idea and not Divine Scripture.

I personally only drink non-alcoholic red wine (1 glass a day) for health benefits to the heart. To get the same ammount of alcohol that is found in a single glass of standard wine, I would have to drink something like 5 bottles in one sitting.

As I have stated before, it is possible to drink a glass of wine or have a beer without being drunk and altering our mental state. It is not possible to do such a thing with narcotics and psychodelic drugs. The act of deliberately altering our mental state for pleasure is the sin of drunkenness.

There is a qualitative difference between being given pain medication by a doctor to treat or heal, and frebasing cocaine in a gutter.

Quoted: As fundamentalist as I am, I have never thought that drinking wine was offensive to Jesus, in any manner. Do not ye yet understand, that whatsoever entereth in at the mouth goeth into the belly, and is cast out into the draught? But those things which proceed out of the mouth come forth from the heart; and they defile the man. Matthew 15:17,18 But saying that, there's likely more evil that has been caused in this world by the unbridled use of wine and other alcoholic beverages than any other substance, legal or otherwise. And we should refrain from doing evil. Eric The(TakingALittleWineForMyOftInfirmities)Hun

I guess I am a tad more fundamentalist than you are then....



Theologically, our denomination was born in the Holiness revival of the late 19th century. So alkeehawl is a no no.

Quoted: Theologically, our denomination was born in the Holiness revival of the late 19th century. So alkeehawl is a no no.

So, ya wanna smoke a little reefer?  

Quoted: Goodness. When y'all get finished with attempting to tear Christianity down, what are you going to be left with? Some belief system based upon your own weak moral characters? Now that would be Hell, indeed! Thankfully, we needn't worry....in the long run. Eric The(FundamentalChristian,Then,NowAndForever)Hun

Hell would be believing that you need to believe in a certain doctrine in order to have "moral character". It would seem to be weakness that you need to believe that there is some outside judge judging your deeds to 'do the right thing'.

The Judge is within!

But you are correct we needn't worry at all.....

Quoted: So, ya wanna smoke a little reefer?

No. Reefer is a sin because 1. It intoxicates almost instantly 2. It harms the body (temple of the Holy Spirit) and 3. it is illegal.

Three strikes and it is out.

Quoted: Quoted: So, ya wanna smoke a little reefer?   No. Reefer is a sin because 1. It intoxicates almost instantly 2. It harms the body (temple of the Holy Spirit) and 3. it is illegal. Three strikes and it is out.

Well, in moderation it hasn't been really shown to be that harmful, and it wasn't illegal until  after the turn of the 20th century (sin and illegal are the same? is that state law or just national?).  

First one's free...... (offer void where prohibited or sinful).

Quoted: Quoted: So, ya wanna smoke a little reefer?   No. Reefer is a sin because 1. It intoxicates almost instantly 2. It harms the body (temple of the Holy Spirit) and 3. it is illegal. Three strikes and it is out.

cup of Coffee then?