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Posted: 2/13/2022 7:01:46 AM EDT
[#1]
Quote HistoryQuoted: You're certainly good at selling to others on the site! I do my best |
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Posted: 2/13/2022 9:08:57 AM EDT
[#2]
Looking back on this thread I wish I had just answered "Shotguns are ok if that's what you have but rifles are better" and quit.
Can we argue about something else now? Debate is fun and interesting, but this one has run it's course. |
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Posted: 2/13/2022 10:14:41 AM EDT
[#3]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Looking back on this thread I wish I had just answered "Shotguns are ok if that's what you have but rifles are better" and quit. Can we argue about something else now? Debate is fun and interesting, but this one has run it's course.  Attached File |
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Posted: 2/13/2022 10:15:55 AM EDT
[#4]
Quote HistoryQuote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: Looking back on this thread I wish I had just answered "Shotguns are ok if that's what you have but rifles are better" and quit. Can we argue about something else now? Debate is fun and interesting, but this one has run it's course. https://www.ar15.com/media/mediaFiles/492720/E43CC0B4-7F6F-44DA-A7F5-F218CAD2DC5B_png-2277672.JPG I love sausage. 
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Posted: 2/13/2022 11:06:15 AM EDT
[#5]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Looking back on this thread I wish I had just answered "Shotguns are ok if that's what you have but rifles are better" and quit. Can we argue about something else now? Debate is fun and interesting, but this one has run it's course. Shotguns are far from useless for HD, but an AR with a 30 round mag is superior, IMHO. YMMV. |
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Posted: 2/13/2022 11:07:41 AM EDT
[#6]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Shotguns are fine. MAC sucks. STUPIDITY on an unprecedented level from MAC.... ask someone from authority like Clint Smith... MAC has a couple of 'valid' points like fine motor skills and loading..... but as far as someone grabbing and disarming you... grab the front of a barrel and see how that works out for you... |
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Posted: 2/13/2022 11:10:55 AM EDT
[#7]
Quote HistoryQuoted: STUPIDITY on an unprecedented level from MAC.... ask someone from authority like Clint Smith... MAC has a couple of 'valid' points like fine motor skills and loading..... but as far as someone grabbing and disarming you... grab the front of a barrel and see how that works out for you... Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: Shotguns are fine. MAC sucks. STUPIDITY on an unprecedented level from MAC.... ask someone from authority like Clint Smith... MAC has a couple of 'valid' points like fine motor skills and loading..... but as far as someone grabbing and disarming you... grab the front of a barrel and see how that works out for you... Bad guys grabbing the barrel is the reason I keep a bayonet on my home defense rifle, and encourage others to as well. |
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Posted: 2/13/2022 11:16:43 AM EDT
[#8]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Bad guys grabbing the barrel is the reason I keep a bayonet on my home defense rifle, and encourage others to as well. Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: Quoted: Shotguns are fine. MAC sucks. STUPIDITY on an unprecedented level from MAC.... ask someone from authority like Clint Smith... MAC has a couple of 'valid' points like fine motor skills and loading..... but as far as someone grabbing and disarming you... grab the front of a barrel and see how that works out for you... Bad guys grabbing the barrel is the reason I keep a bayonet on my home defense rifle, and encourage others to as well. How many people have a sharp enough bayonet to make the bad guy let go? Every bayonet I've seen was so dull a butter knife would be an improvement. |
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Posted: 2/13/2022 11:22:42 AM EDT
[#9]
Quote HistoryQuoted: How many people have a sharp enough bayonet to make the bad guy let go? Every bayonet I've seen was so dull a butter knife would be an improvement. Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: Shotguns are fine. MAC sucks. STUPIDITY on an unprecedented level from MAC.... ask someone from authority like Clint Smith... MAC has a couple of 'valid' points like fine motor skills and loading..... but as far as someone grabbing and disarming you... grab the front of a barrel and see how that works out for you... Bad guys grabbing the barrel is the reason I keep a bayonet on my home defense rifle, and encourage others to as well. How many people have a sharp enough bayonet to make the bad guy let go? Every bayonet I've seen was so dull a butter knife would be an improvement. Well most bayonets are kept as historical curiosities. The owners have no practical need for sharpening them, and it is sometimes seen as a detractor of collector value. My M7s are kept quite sharp. |
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Posted: 2/13/2022 11:30:32 AM EDT
[#10]
Quote HistoryQuoted: How many people have a sharp enough bayonet to make the bad guy let go? Every bayonet I've seen was so dull a butter knife would be an improvement. Astroglide on the barrel works too |
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Posted: 2/13/2022 12:42:22 PM EDT
[#11]
I read through the first three pages of this discussion, and the consensus seems to be that the youtube poster is full of crap and is click bait.
I too, quit watching him after the SVD fiasco, and have removed his channel from my subscription list. Anyway in the true arfcom way, I have both. |
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Posted: 2/13/2022 12:53:19 PM EDT
[#12]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Just get a Mossberg. https://www.lockharttactical.com/media/com_hikashop/upload/3-0130326_1.jpg Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: I'm trying to figure out how to put a super stabby on the end of my shotgun... :) Just get a Mossberg. https://www.lockharttactical.com/media/com_hikashop/upload/3-0130326_1.jpg 
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Posted: 2/13/2022 12:57:10 PM EDT
[#13]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Astroglide on the barrel works too Or, if you don't want them to get away, KY Silk. That shit gets sticky riki-tik. "Now yous can't leave" |
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Posted: 2/13/2022 1:01:06 PM EDT
[#14]
Quote HistoryQuoted: STUPIDITY on an unprecedented level from MAC.... ask someone from authority like Clint Smith... MAC has a couple of 'valid' points like fine motor skills and loading..... but as far as someone grabbing and disarming you... grab the front of a barrel and see how that works out for you... Clint smith is practically senile he's no more an authority than MAC is and I think MAC is a dishonest shithead, so that shows how I fell about Clint |
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Posted: 2/13/2022 1:03:10 PM EDT
[#15]
Quote HistoryQuoted: There is a 1400 FPS flight control 00 Buck? That would definitely enhance reliability in my M1S90. Do you have the SKU number? Never said it was a FCW but plenty of loads out there. 1400 FPS |
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Posted: 2/13/2022 1:05:58 PM EDT
[#16]
Quote HistoryQuoted: 00 buck is soft lead spheres. That is not a very ballisticly effecient projectile shape or construction. Sure there are some brands that do plated buckshot, but its still a round ball. Neither are going to cause hydrostatic shock, 00 bucks only saving grace is you get 7-8 more projectiles. The range is going to be less than 40 feet in the home. No one cares about BE. His claim was 00 buck is LESS powerful than 32 ACP which is flat out ridiculous. |
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Posted: 2/13/2022 1:28:59 PM EDT
[#17]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Well most bayonets are kept as historical curiosities. The owners have no practical need for sharpening them, and it is sometimes seen as a detractor of collector value. My M7s are kept quite sharp. LOL, during the cold war, every bayonet I touched was dull and the units had policies prohibiting sharpening them. |
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Posted: 2/13/2022 1:30:48 PM EDT
[#18]
Quote HistoryQuoted: LOL, during the cold war, every bayonet I touched was dull and the units had policies prohibiting sharpening them. Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: Well most bayonets are kept as historical curiosities. The owners have no practical need for sharpening them, and it is sometimes seen as a detractor of collector value. My M7s are kept quite sharp. LOL, during the cold war, every bayonet I touched was dull and the units had policies prohibiting sharpening them. That's unfortunate. Luckily I am not bound by any such policy. |
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Posted: 2/13/2022 2:31:35 PM EDT
[#19]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Why have 8 shots when you can have 18 or 30? If you think this is going to be a gun battle, then yes a rifle is better? Do not underestimate a man with a shotgun. |
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Posted: 2/13/2022 3:57:08 PM EDT
[#20]
Quote HistoryQuoted: If you think this is going to be a gun battle, then yes a rifle is better? Do not underestimate a man with a shotgun. Especially if he’s a hobo  Attached File |
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Posted: 2/13/2022 3:58:47 PM EDT
[#21]
Thread is inspiring me to buy a SBS based on a Turkish M4 clone
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Posted: 2/13/2022 3:59:41 PM EDT
[#22]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Looking back on this thread I wish I had just answered "Shotguns are ok if that's what you have but rifles are better" and quit. Can we argue about something else now? Debate is fun and interesting, but this one has run it's course. It ran its course like 15 years ago. We're old. 
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Posted: 2/13/2022 5:03:39 PM EDT
[#23]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Thread is inspiring me to buy a SBS based on a Turkish M4 clone 
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Posted: 2/13/2022 5:40:28 PM EDT
[#24]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Thread is inspiring me to buy a SBS based on a Turkish M4 clone Link? |
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Posted: 2/13/2022 5:49:17 PM EDT
[#25]
Federal FC le127 00 9 pellet 00 1325 fps.
Hornady Critical Defense 00 8 pellet 1600 fps. Has same wad as Federal FC. I went with a reduced power recoil spring to get my M1 to work with Federal 8 pellet FC, which is 1145 fps if memory serves. My LTT1301 is still so new I don’t have much experience with it yet, but both full power and reduced power buck cycle reliably, and have similar felt recoil. |
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Posted: 2/13/2022 7:44:28 PM EDT
[#26]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Inside a car with no ear pro sucks though Once when I was using the drop gate on my jeep for a portable shooting rest I fired 1 shot from my 300 win mag while it was basically in the vehicle with me, and I had forgotten to put in my ear plugs. Only 1 time. |
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Posted: 2/13/2022 7:59:33 PM EDT
[#27]
Quote HistoryQuoted: The range is going to be less than 40 feet in the home. No one cares about BE. His claim was 00 buck is LESS powerful than 32 ACP which is flat out ridiculous. "His", IE, my, clam that ONE PELLET from 00 buck is ballistically similar to .32acp is accurate. No shit a full load of buck is more powerful than a single round of .32acp 
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Posted: 2/13/2022 9:24:58 PM EDT
[#28]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Well to be fair, it's not been much of a debate. It's mostly Shot Heads throwing tired and worn out talking points vs Righteous Rifle Rangers recycling quotes (ie: screaming fucking nightmare or simply Gothic) from previous "debates" and ridiculing Shot Heads. Shotguns are far from useless for HD, but an AR with a 30 round mag is superior, IMHO. YMMV. Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: Looking back on this thread I wish I had just answered "Shotguns are ok if that's what you have but rifles are better" and quit. Can we argue about something else now? Debate is fun and interesting, but this one has run it's course. Shotguns are far from useless for HD, but an AR with a 30 round mag is superior, IMHO. YMMV. An artist always appreciates when his work has been recognized. |
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Posted: 2/13/2022 9:27:06 PM EDT
[#29]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Thread is inspiring me to buy a SBS based on a Turkish M4 clone Thread is inspiring me to remember that shoguns are gross. |
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Posted: 2/13/2022 9:37:09 PM EDT
[#30]
Talk about desperate for views definitely not watching that
Shotguns, pistols and rifles are all good choices ….. what a clown |
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Posted: 2/13/2022 9:57:09 PM EDT
[#31]
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Posted: 2/13/2022 9:58:02 PM EDT
[#32]
Quote HistoryUnending cheers. |
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Posted: 2/13/2022 10:01:21 PM EDT
[#33]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Well most bayonets are kept as historical curiosities. The owners have no practical need for sharpening them, and it is sometimes seen as a detractor of collector value. My M7s are kept quite sharp. Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: Shotguns are fine. MAC sucks. STUPIDITY on an unprecedented level from MAC.... ask someone from authority like Clint Smith... MAC has a couple of 'valid' points like fine motor skills and loading..... but as far as someone grabbing and disarming you... grab the front of a barrel and see how that works out for you... Bad guys grabbing the barrel is the reason I keep a bayonet on my home defense rifle, and encourage others to as well. How many people have a sharp enough bayonet to make the bad guy let go? Every bayonet I've seen was so dull a butter knife would be an improvement. Well most bayonets are kept as historical curiosities. The owners have no practical need for sharpening them, and it is sometimes seen as a detractor of collector value. My M7s are kept quite sharp. Most bayonets are issued dull, it's the soldier's duty to sharpen it. Then again, possession of a sharp bayonet gets you the death penalty if you're on the losing side at Nuremberg. |
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Posted: 2/14/2022 2:24:26 PM EDT
[#34]
I don't know if anybody posted this but I already knew what a shotgun could do with 1 trigger pull. But this really made me not want to get hit. It's pretty scary.
 How Deadly are Shotguns? |
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Posted: 2/14/2022 5:18:56 PM EDT
[#35]
Quote HistoryQuoted: The range is going to be less than 40 feet in the home. No one cares about BE. His claim was 00 buck is LESS powerful than 32 ACP which is flat out ridiculous. Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: 00 buck is soft lead spheres. That is not a very ballisticly effecient projectile shape or construction. Sure there are some brands that do plated buckshot, but its still a round ball. Neither are going to cause hydrostatic shock, 00 bucks only saving grace is you get 7-8 more projectiles. The range is going to be less than 40 feet in the home. No one cares about BE. His claim was 00 buck is LESS powerful than 32 ACP which is flat out ridiculous. In all reality, each pellet as a single projectile does have less energy than .32. If the muzzle energy is 1600ish foot pounds, that energy is divided by nine pieces. If one buckshot hits the bad guy, there isn't much energy transferred. From what I've seen on the range some shooters will have to be pretty fucking lucky for that one buckshot to hit. |
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Posted: 2/14/2022 5:40:18 PM EDT
[#36]
Quote HistoryQuoted: In all reality, each pellet as a single projectile does have less energy than .32. If the muzzle energy is 1600ish foot pounds, that energy is divided by nine pieces. If one buckshot hits the bad guy, there isn't much energy transferred. From what I've seen on the range some shooters will have to be pretty fucking lucky for that one buckshot to hit. In reality, these anti shotgun posts like yours is fiction more than fact in an argument that goes nowhere. Like another member said, 15 years and you're all still arguing this as if this time you are in fact are going to change minds? Rifles are better, this is known. But shotguns to those who prefer them can still work so long as the right projectile is being used. I refuse to use them because one, I'm not trained and two, pumps are gross and I really don't want to buy an expensive 1301 or add another caliber to my stash. https://abcnews.go.com/US/texas-resident-grabs-shotgun-shoots-kills-home-invaders/story?id=67899837 |
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Posted: 2/14/2022 5:44:29 PM EDT
[#37]
Nothing wrong with a shotgun for HD.
Just the fan boys swinging their purses that think otherwise...  9mm vs 5.56 vs 12 ga. (00) on a Pig's head https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_qFSzuUm9-Y |
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Posted: 2/14/2022 5:46:20 PM EDT
[#38]
Quote HistoryQuoted: AR15's are better for home defense. However shotguns do have a place. You can get cheap reliable pump shotguns for those that cannot afford an ar15, and shotguns > handguns. |
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Posted: 2/14/2022 6:13:45 PM EDT
[#39]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Looking back on this thread I wish I had just answered "Shotguns are ok if that's what you have but rifles are better" and quit. Can we argue about something else now? Debate is fun and interesting, but this one has run it's course. Meh, shotguns are better. I've used both If you've never used both then you don't really know what you don't know |
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Posted: 2/14/2022 6:17:39 PM EDT
[#40]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Thread is inspiring me to remember that shoguns are gross. Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: Thread is inspiring me to buy a SBS based on a Turkish M4 clone Thread is inspiring me to remember that shoguns are gross. I enjoyed it when it came out.  Attached File |
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Posted: 2/14/2022 6:37:42 PM EDT
[#41]
Quote HistoryQuoted: I enjoyed it when it came out. https://www.ar15.com/media/mediaFiles/513887/AC030609-6A81-4AF2-BCAB-FC9F770C64D8_jpe-2279564.JPG  Attached File |
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Posted: 2/14/2022 6:44:00 PM EDT
[#42]
Quote HistoryQuoted: MAC is a hack Yep, fuck that guy. In order to get a positive review you have to bribe or pay him. Not to mention his recent shady shenanigans. |
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Posted: 2/14/2022 6:51:06 PM EDT
[#43]
Rifle > Shotgun > Handgun
Can we move on now? |
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Posted: 2/14/2022 6:58:21 PM EDT
[#44]
Quote HistoryQuoted: An artist always appreciates when his work has been recognized. Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: Quoted: Looking back on this thread I wish I had just answered "Shotguns are ok if that's what you have but rifles are better" and quit. Can we argue about something else now? Debate is fun and interesting, but this one has run it's course. Shotguns are far from useless for HD, but an AR with a 30 round mag is superior, IMHO. YMMV. An artist always appreciates when his work has been recognized.  Man on fire - Creasy's art is death |
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Posted: 2/14/2022 7:16:10 PM EDT
[#45]
Quote HistoryQuoted: What kind of shotgun is that? Is it 12 gauge, 16 gauge, 20 gauge, or 28gauge? What choke do you run: full, modified, improved, other? 444 gauge, fully rifled. |
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Posted: 2/14/2022 7:43:14 PM EDT
[#46]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Rifle > Shotgun > Handgun Can we move on now? You can anytime you want…there is a vast amount of other threads you can visit … |
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Posted: 2/14/2022 9:55:17 PM EDT
[#47]
Quote HistoryQuoted: I’ve discharged infinite rifle rounds inside houses. It’s fine. Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: I can tell which people have zero real world experience with discharging rifles inside a house. I’ve discharged infinite rifle rounds inside houses. It’s fine. WHAT!?!?!? EEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEE |
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Posted: 2/15/2022 8:42:19 AM EDT
[#48]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Meh, shotguns are better. I've used both If you've never used both then you don't really know what you don't know Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: Looking back on this thread I wish I had just answered "Shotguns are ok if that's what you have but rifles are better" and quit. Can we argue about something else now? Debate is fun and interesting, but this one has run it's course. Meh, shotguns are better. I've used both If you've never used both then you don't really know what you don't know I've used both. I think you mean in combat, so you have me there. But I have trained with both. |
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Posted: 2/15/2022 2:10:20 PM EDT
[#49]
Quote HistoryQuoted: This. New tech doesn't make old tech less effective in absolute terms. It just provides better options that make the old tech a less attractive choice in relative terms. Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: They don't suck for home defense. Rifles are just better. This. New tech doesn't make old tech less effective in absolute terms. It just provides better options that make the old tech a less attractive choice in relative terms. That relativity is the grind here. Nearly all descriptions are relative. You cannot have big without small. Most things are described in relation to other things of the same sort. Take, for example, 1960s muscle cars. A whole lot of people still think of them as "fast," but if you compare stock to stock, most would get completely outclassed by something as mundane as a V6 Camry/Accord. Those muscle cars have a massive cool factor, but that cool factor doesn't help with lap times or longevity over 200k+ miles. They're cool, and yet objectively, when it comes to any actual application... they suck. That brings us back to shotguns. They have absolutely massive limitations compared to modern rifles. They have a very short range, the capacity is low, they're slow to load, and there's enough recoil that it's a big hindrance. People like to play this down, but the reality is, there are millions of people in this country that cannot handle the recoil of 12ga, and no matter how big and manly you are, and no matter how fast and awesome your shotgun is, you will always be slower with 12ga than you will with a rifle. For all those limitations, what do you get in return? Considering how 5.56 and 7.62x39 have been stacking bodies at close to intermediate distances effectively for 50+ years, any argument about terminal ballistic superiority is pretty much out the window. Dead is dead, and a more powerful cartridge doesn't make a threat dead-er-er. That pretty much leaves financial and legislative limitations as the only advantage shotguns actually have. If you aren't bound by those limitations, there's no reason to voluntarily submit yourself to the limitations of a shotgun. Shotguns are cool. Shotguns are fun. Shotguns are still the proper tool for shooting targets in the air, some small game, and even breaching. But as defensive firearms, shotguns are unquestionably and undeniably inferior to rifles by a very significant and meaningful margin. Does that mean they "suck?" Well... |
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Posted: 2/15/2022 4:53:16 PM EDT
[#50]
Quote HistoryQuoted: That relativity is the grind here. Nearly all descriptions are relative. You cannot have big without small. Most things are described in relation to other things of the same sort. Take, for example, 1960s muscle cars. A whole lot of people still think of them as "fast," but if you compare stock to stock, most would get completely outclassed by something as mundane as a V6 Camry/Accord. Those muscle cars have a massive cool factor, but that cool factor doesn't help with lap times or longevity over 200k+ miles. They're cool, and yet objectively, when it comes to any actual application... they suck. That brings us back to shotguns. They have absolutely massive limitations compared to modern rifles. They have a very short range, the capacity is low, they're slow to load, and there's enough recoil that it's a big hindrance. People like to play this down, but the reality is, there are millions of people in this country that cannot handle the recoil of 12ga, and no matter how big and manly you are, and no matter how fast and awesome your shotgun is, you will always be slower with 12ga than you will with a rifle. For all those limitations, what do you get in return? Considering how 5.56 and 7.62x39 have been stacking bodies at close to intermediate distances effectively for 50+ years, any argument about terminal ballistic superiority is pretty much out the window. Dead is dead, and a more powerful cartridge doesn't make a threat dead-er-er. That pretty much leaves financial and legislative limitations as the only advantage shotguns actually have. If you aren't bound by those limitations, there's no reason to voluntarily submit yourself to the limitations of a shotgun. Shotguns are cool. Shotguns are fun. Shotguns are still the proper tool for shooting targets in the air, some small game, and even breaching. But as defensive firearms, shotguns are unquestionably and undeniably inferior to rifles by a very significant and meaningful margin. Does that mean they "suck?" Well...  Attached File |
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