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Posted: 8/26/2013 8:19:16 PM EST
[#1]
I wish troy was still in business with dicks so I could think about them circling the bowl together.
It seems dicks really DO fuck assholes and pussies. |
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Posted: 8/26/2013 8:19:45 PM EST
[#2]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Same here. I saw this post first appear on the front page and knew it would be a shit storm. The people here are like a lynch mob, and there's nothing Troy could do to appease them. I wouldn't have even given them the satisfaction of an apology if I were Steve Troy. His business is perfectly sustainable catering just to military and law enforcement. I like the Troy slide on rear sling point rings, they save me the trouble of having to take off the buffer tube, especially if the castle nuts are staked. And to get so wound up about the Weavers? A bunch of criminal lunatics that, given a chance to surrender, knowing they were facing certain death, chose death with their kids in the line of fire. Yeah, try to sink an innovative, profitable gun company in their names.  Quote HistoryQuoted:
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I will still be buying Troy products before during and after all of this internet drama. Same here. I saw this post first appear on the front page and knew it would be a shit storm. The people here are like a lynch mob, and there's nothing Troy could do to appease them. I wouldn't have even given them the satisfaction of an apology if I were Steve Troy. His business is perfectly sustainable catering just to military and law enforcement. I like the Troy slide on rear sling point rings, they save me the trouble of having to take off the buffer tube, especially if the castle nuts are staked. And to get so wound up about the Weavers? A bunch of criminal lunatics that, given a chance to surrender, knowing they were facing certain death, chose death with their kids in the line of fire. Yeah, try to sink an innovative, profitable gun company in their names. They weren't criminal lunatics. Randy Weaver was entrapped by the feds. They weren't given a chance to surrender. The US Attorney, in fact, fucked with their court dates on more than one occasion. They found out they were facing certain death after their son was killed, and then Randy Weaver was shot, and then Vicki Weaver was killed. They found out what kind of psychotic scumbags they were facing when the FBI negotiators kept asking them, "Where's Vicki?" and asking if she made breakfast for them after they killed her. The Director of the FBI said the HRT's actions were wrong. The state court said the HRT's actions were wrong. The federal court said the HRT's actions were wrong. The US Senate said the HRT's actions were wrong. Mr. Monroe says they were just fine. They have no excuse You have no excuse. |
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Posted: 8/26/2013 8:20:04 PM EST
[#3]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Bravo! I will buy you a beer if ever I have the chance. Actually, after reading the thread with his comments blocked, I think I owe you the beer! 
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Posted: 8/26/2013 8:20:35 PM EST
[#4]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Drop it. You're as much to blame as anybody by continuing this mess. Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: Funny how many pages ago I said the same things Goatboy and others here were saying. You all start throwing shit around and then I'm the troll for it? Then the shit storm just starts piling on more and more but I'm still the troll for sticking up for what I said. Drop it. You're as much to blame as anybody by continuing this mess. Why yes SIR! |
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Posted: 8/26/2013 8:20:56 PM EST
[#5]
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EL OH El!! How long has Dale worked there? I'm assuming he wasn't just hired, like Jody. Has this been flying under the radar for some time? Quote HistoryQuoted:
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I guess I'll order a yhm free float over troy  Jesus. Let's not go overboard. EL OH El!! How long has Dale worked there? I'm assuming he wasn't just hired, like Jody. Has this been flying under the radar for some time? Either March or May. I can't remember. |
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Posted: 8/26/2013 8:21:38 PM EST
[#6]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Weaver and his family were innocent, not criminals (the FBI even stated as such), and they won all their court cases. Even the MSM knows that much. Military ROE in a U.S. Marshal domestic incident....yeah that sounds legit man. Quote HistoryQuoted:
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Well we'd need more clearly defined ROE than that. I mean, what if they drop their babies and are running away? Are they still hostile? Weaver and his family were innocent, not criminals (the FBI even stated as such), and they won all their court cases. Even the MSM knows that much. Military ROE in a U.S. Marshal domestic incident....yeah that sounds legit man. Well, I'd recommend you not get in an armed standoff that you can't foresee winning. You'll get deaded. And it appears that Randy Weaver was convicted of failure to appear stemming from short barrel shotgun charges that were later dismissed. Essentially he chose to defy the man rather than go to court. |
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Posted: 8/26/2013 8:21:46 PM EST
[#7]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Actually, after reading the thread with his comments blocked, I think I owe you the beer! Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: Bravo! I will buy you a beer if ever I have the chance. Actually, after reading the thread with his comments blocked, I think I owe you the beer! Got my fist blocks... I don't know what to do with my self? |
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Posted: 8/26/2013 8:21:51 PM EST
[#8]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Drop it. You're as much to blame as anybody by continuing this mess. Quote HistoryQuoted:
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Funny how many pages ago I said the same things Goatboy and others here were saying. You all start throwing shit around and then I'm the troll for it? Then the shit storm just starts piling on more and more but I'm still the troll for sticking up for what I said. Drop it. You're as much to blame as anybody by continuing this mess. I believe unless VacaDuck is on one's ignore list as well, when you quote Cozmacozmy, we still have to read the dribble. I don't have anyone on ignore, but I'm seeing one or two contenders in this thread. (Not you VacaDuck) While I haven't yet utilized the ignore button, I know better than to quote someone who has obviously overstayed their usefulness in a discussion thread. |
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Posted: 8/26/2013 8:22:25 PM EST
[#9]
Quote HistoryQuoted: I read that in Al Swearengen voice. It was fucking AWESOME! Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: Quoted: I don't see that anything you say will ever change the opinions of people here... its a lynch mob and lynch mobs don't listen to reason. It's indeed fucking arrogant for you to personify any number of opinions, well-formed given the shucking and jiving of Troy upon the matter, as a lynch mob. I was a city cop when RR happened. As I was during Waco. And you are irreparably fucked up upon this subject. And us poor lynch-minded patrol folks shuddered as the news developed. How in the blue fuck could something as poorly planned and executed as these travesties be allowed by our Nation? The stigma of dead Weavers is permanently tattooed upon the FBI response to RR. Troy apparently accepts that same mark, and chooses to wear it proudly. Chains resting lightly and all that. I'll sooner extract my own molars with a corroded pair of Vise-Grips before I'll profane my Goddamned rifle with anything from Troy. I'll gleefully shade, mock and ridicule any who choose to buy from them, and pray for open-breech detonations visited upon them. It's not just the whoredom against the 2A here. More importantly, it's Troy's willful (if inadvisable) choice to unabashedly support someone who is as heretic and sociopathic as Horiuchi, except without the actual blood of a mother to wave above the Fedsucking masses in triumph. In parting, it is my fervent hope that Troy exists famous just long enough to be closed and seized for tax evasion, due to evaporating sales....no IRS fan here, but the irony would be delicious. I read that in Al Swearengen voice. It was fucking AWESOME! Wunda has a way with words, and in threads of a particularly egregious subject matter shows up like clockwork to smite the lucky one.
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Posted: 8/26/2013 8:22:33 PM EST
[#10]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Fixed by veracity injection. Quote HistoryQuoted:
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And all of the Weavers would be alive today if they'd fought in court instead of being murdered in the woods. You're defending people who chose to have an armed standoff with a woman carrying a baby. Fixed by veracity injection. Any of them could have left at any point during the, what, 8 month long standoff? |
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Posted: 8/26/2013 8:22:38 PM EST
[#11]
http://troyasymmetric.com/dale-r-monroe-troy-asymmetric-instructor/
5/10/13 according to the link |
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Posted: 8/26/2013 8:24:54 PM EST
[#12]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Fought what in court, they were never brought up on charges? Is it now illegal to have a differing opinion than that of the government? Quote HistoryQuoted:
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I will still be buying Troy products before during and after all of this internet drama. Same here. I saw this post first appear on the front page and knew it would be a shit storm. The people here are like a lynch mob, and there's nothing Troy could do to appease them. I wouldn't have even given them the satisfaction of an apology if I were Steve Troy. His business is perfectly sustainable catering just to military and law enforcement. I like the Troy slide on rear sling point rings, they save me the trouble of having to take off the buffer tube, especially if the castle nuts are staked. And to get so wound up about the Weavers? A bunch of criminal lunatics that, given a chance to surrender, knowing they were facing certain death, chose death with their kids in the line of fire. Yeah, try to sink an innovative, profitable gun company in their names. Because everyone, even a criminal lunatic, is afforded due process. I like my multiple sets of Troy BUIS and rails. Their business decision is that they're better off focusing on military and law enforcement, and they hired some notorious characters. They proudly proclaimed it. Now we will all see how those decisions affect their business. They will probably do fine, just as you say. It's not getting wound about the Weavers. It's getting wound about someone who was a cheerleader for aggressive ROE that were well outside the ethical or legal bounds for domestic use of deadly force, being hired to continue training people. The Weavers needed to be brought to justice. It wasn't the on-site team's responsibility to summarily administer justice and execute, yet they abrogated their positions as holders of the public trust by doing just that. And all of the Weavers would be alive today if they'd fought in court instead of in the woods. You're defending people who chose to have an armed standoff with the man. Fought what in court, they were never brought up on charges? Is it now illegal to have a differing opinion than that of the government? Wikipedia suggests that Randy Weaver was charged with several crimes, and the only one that stuck was failure to appear. It is interesting that the federal agents started calling their encampment "Camp Vicki" after shooting Weaver's wife. And calling out to her every morning with bullhorns while she lay dead on the floor. That seems a little questionable\sadistic. |
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Posted: 8/26/2013 8:26:00 PM EST
[#13]
 Seems like the longer this sucker gets, the more enjoyable GD becomes. |
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Posted: 8/26/2013 8:27:12 PM EST
[#14]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Actually, after reading the thread with his comments blocked, I think I owe you the beer! Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: Bravo! I will buy you a beer if ever I have the chance. Actually, after reading the thread with his comments blocked, I think I owe you the beer! Isn't it beautiful? I fucking love the ignore button. When it was first integrated I resisted, in fact it was probably around for a couple years before I gave it a chance. Now I use it like a pressure release valve, and it works like a charm.
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Posted: 8/26/2013 8:28:09 PM EST
[#15]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Nobody has cut up anything Troy yet? Psssh amateur hour tonight in GD. <------- Owns nothing Troy. I'll use my 13.8 trx for target practice if someone can send me something else to use in it's place. till then I'll get a sharpie and cover the logo and cancel whatever the hell I've had backordered from them for 8 months |
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Posted: 8/26/2013 8:28:13 PM EST
[#16]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
They weren't criminal lunatics. Randy Weaver was entrapped by the feds. They weren't given a chance to surrender. The US Attorney, in fact, fucked with their court dates on more than one occasion. They found out they were facing certain death after their son was killed, and then Randy Weaver was shot, and then Vicki Weaver was killed. They found out what kind of psychotic scumbags they were facing when the FBI negotiators kept asking them, "Where's Vicki?" and asking if she made breakfast for them after they killed her. The Director of the FBI said the HRT's actions were wrong. The state court said the HRT's actions were wrong. The federal court said the HRT's actions were wrong. The US Senate said the HRT's actions were wrong. Mr. Monroe says they were just fine. They have no excuse You have no excuse. Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
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I will still be buying Troy products before during and after all of this internet drama. Same here. I saw this post first appear on the front page and knew it would be a shit storm. The people here are like a lynch mob, and there's nothing Troy could do to appease them. I wouldn't have even given them the satisfaction of an apology if I were Steve Troy. His business is perfectly sustainable catering just to military and law enforcement. I like the Troy slide on rear sling point rings, they save me the trouble of having to take off the buffer tube, especially if the castle nuts are staked. And to get so wound up about the Weavers? A bunch of criminal lunatics that, given a chance to surrender, knowing they were facing certain death, chose death with their kids in the line of fire. Yeah, try to sink an innovative, profitable gun company in their names. They weren't criminal lunatics. Randy Weaver was entrapped by the feds. They weren't given a chance to surrender. The US Attorney, in fact, fucked with their court dates on more than one occasion. They found out they were facing certain death after their son was killed, and then Randy Weaver was shot, and then Vicki Weaver was killed. They found out what kind of psychotic scumbags they were facing when the FBI negotiators kept asking them, "Where's Vicki?" and asking if she made breakfast for them after they killed her. The Director of the FBI said the HRT's actions were wrong. The state court said the HRT's actions were wrong. The federal court said the HRT's actions were wrong. The US Senate said the HRT's actions were wrong. Mr. Monroe says they were just fine. They have no excuse You have no excuse. Regardless, this seems like a relatively minor thing to hate Troy Industries for. Because some guy that said something you disagree with about something that happened 20 years ago works for them? And in a department where they're not even teaching shooting, IIRC, but EOD type stuff, emergency management and tactics? |
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Posted: 8/26/2013 8:28:13 PM EST
[#17]
Dale Monroe described his own conduct on Ruby Ridge only ten days after the incident:
During the entire incident, I was trying to focus on the armed, adult males in order to fire at them but could not get a clear shot because of the vegetation near me and the movement of the subjects. (Monroe 8/31/92 FBI Form 302) |
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Posted: 8/26/2013 8:28:49 PM EST
[#18]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Wikipedia suggests that Randy Weaver was charged with several crimes, and the only one that stuck was failure to appear. It is interesting that the federal agents started calling their encampment "Camp Vicki" after shooting Weaver's wife. And calling out to her every morning with bullhorns while she lay dead on the floor. That seems a little questionable\sadistic. And shooting her in the face doesn't?
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Posted: 8/26/2013 8:30:17 PM EST
[#19]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Yes some of my comments here were in jest. Troll, a few after the shit storm erupted, When one come at me swinging, I'm going to swing right back. Quote HistoryQuoted:
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Cozmacozmy, Realize, this is an emotionally charged subject for many of the posters here. Your posts, whether made in jest or an attempt at trolling, are having a negative effect. I don't know if this is your goal or just an unfortunate side effect of your posting style. I do know that it will end up leading to this thread being locked. Everyone responding to Cozmacozmy, cool your jets. If you have an issue with how he is posting in this thread, ignore him Don't let your emotions get the best of you and send this thread into lockdown. Thank you. Yes some of my comments here were in jest. Troll, a few after the shit storm erupted, When one come at me swinging, I'm going to swing right back. You are aware that admitting to trolling violates COC #6 and is a bannable offense? |
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Posted: 8/26/2013 8:30:38 PM EST
[#20]
I'm not an paragon of objectivity, mind you....
....but given the blind, cheerful support given to the .gov-sanctioned slaying of a mother holding her child after her son's murder, by a member with a tank icon - is it unfair that we coin a new epithet: Thin Green Line? This in no way reflects upon the honorable .mil members who have served our Republic, and respect and fulfill their oaths. But I AM suggesting a bootlicker is as reprehensible as a badge sniffer. Just sayin', is all. |
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Posted: 8/26/2013 8:31:07 PM EST
[#21]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Well, I'd recommend you not get in an armed standoff that you can't foresee winning. You'll get deaded. And it appears that Randy Weaver was convicted of failure to appear stemming from short barrel shotgun charges that were later dismissed. Essentially he chose to defy the man rather than go to court. Quote HistoryQuoted:
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Well we'd need more clearly defined ROE than that. I mean, what if they drop their babies and are running away? Are they still hostile? Weaver and his family were innocent, not criminals (the FBI even stated as such), and they won all their court cases. Even the MSM knows that much. Military ROE in a U.S. Marshal domestic incident....yeah that sounds legit man. Well, I'd recommend you not get in an armed standoff that you can't foresee winning. You'll get deaded. And it appears that Randy Weaver was convicted of failure to appear stemming from short barrel shotgun charges that were later dismissed. Essentially he chose to defy the man rather than go to court. Ummm. No. |
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Posted: 8/26/2013 8:31:10 PM EST
[#22]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
And shooting her in the face doesn't? Quote HistoryQuoted:
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Wikipedia suggests that Randy Weaver was charged with several crimes, and the only one that stuck was failure to appear. It is interesting that the federal agents started calling their encampment "Camp Vicki" after shooting Weaver's wife. And calling out to her every morning with bullhorns while she lay dead on the floor. That seems a little questionable\sadistic. And shooting her in the face doesn't? The same tactic they later employed at Mt. Carmel. It's been reported that Horiuchi was there on April 19 because he, "wanted in on the action.." . Was his partner Monroe also there on April 19? I honestly don't know. |
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Posted: 8/26/2013 8:31:59 PM EST
[#23]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Any of them could have left at any point during the, what, 8 month long standoff? Quote HistoryQuoted:
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And all of the Weavers would be alive today if they'd fought in court instead of being murdered in the woods. You're defending people who chose to have an armed standoff with a woman carrying a baby. Fixed by veracity injection. Any of them could have left at any point during the, what, 8 month long standoff? You're not particularly well-informed. Two Weavers left, but it was in a rubber bag. |
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Posted: 8/26/2013 8:32:12 PM EST
[#24]
That ARMS buis is garbage, they said. Get a Troy, they said.
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Posted: 8/26/2013 8:32:33 PM EST
[#25]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Regardless, this seems like a relatively minor thing to hate Troy Industries for. Because some guy that said something you disagree with about something that happened 20 years ago works for them? And in a department where they're not even teaching shooting, IIRC, but EOD type stuff, emergency management and tactics? Quote HistoryQuoted:
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I will still be buying Troy products before during and after all of this internet drama. Same here. I saw this post first appear on the front page and knew it would be a shit storm. The people here are like a lynch mob, and there's nothing Troy could do to appease them. I wouldn't have even given them the satisfaction of an apology if I were Steve Troy. His business is perfectly sustainable catering just to military and law enforcement. I like the Troy slide on rear sling point rings, they save me the trouble of having to take off the buffer tube, especially if the castle nuts are staked. And to get so wound up about the Weavers? A bunch of criminal lunatics that, given a chance to surrender, knowing they were facing certain death, chose death with their kids in the line of fire. Yeah, try to sink an innovative, profitable gun company in their names. They weren't criminal lunatics. Randy Weaver was entrapped by the feds. They weren't given a chance to surrender. The US Attorney, in fact, fucked with their court dates on more than one occasion. They found out they were facing certain death after their son was killed, and then Randy Weaver was shot, and then Vicki Weaver was killed. They found out what kind of psychotic scumbags they were facing when the FBI negotiators kept asking them, "Where's Vicki?" and asking if she made breakfast for them after they killed her. The Director of the FBI said the HRT's actions were wrong. The state court said the HRT's actions were wrong. The federal court said the HRT's actions were wrong. The US Senate said the HRT's actions were wrong. Mr. Monroe says they were just fine. They have no excuse You have no excuse. Regardless, this seems like a relatively minor thing to hate Troy Industries for. Because some guy that said something you disagree with about something that happened 20 years ago works for them? And in a department where they're not even teaching shooting, IIRC, but EOD type stuff, emergency management and tactics? Oh Dear God........ |
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Posted: 8/26/2013 8:33:16 PM EST
[#26]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
I'll use my 13.8 trx for target practice if someone can send me something else to use in it's place. till then I'll get a sharpie and cover the logo and cancel whatever the hell I've had backordered from them for 8 months Quote HistoryQuoted:
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Nobody has cut up anything Troy yet? Psssh amateur hour tonight in GD. <------- Owns nothing Troy. I'll use my 13.8 trx for target practice if someone can send me something else to use in it's place. till then I'll get a sharpie and cover the logo and cancel whatever the hell I've had backordered from them for 8 months Understand the sentiment, but easier just to sell it and get something else. That way anyone who still wants a trx can get one without lining Monroe's pockets. Win-Win. |
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Posted: 8/26/2013 8:33:18 PM EST
[#27]
Thanks for the reply OP.
However, until Monroe is fired I will not buy any Troy products in the future. |
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Posted: 8/26/2013 8:33:33 PM EST
[#28]
I'm going to bed.
Y'all keep it civil, please. |
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Posted: 8/26/2013 8:33:52 PM EST
[#29]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
http://i43.tinypic.com/e5mfk4.png Seems like the longer this sucker gets, the more enjoyable GD becomes. So true. Good choices, but you're missing a few. 
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Posted: 8/26/2013 8:35:43 PM EST
[#30]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
I'm going to bed. Y'all keep it civil, please. Agree and all, brother, but it's tough to keep anything civil when Constitutionally, we have a few criminals in the group. |
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Posted: 8/26/2013 8:36:08 PM EST
[#31]
Quote HistoryQuoted: They weren't criminal lunatics. Randy Weaver was entrapped by the feds. They weren't given a chance to surrender. The US Attorney, in fact, fucked with their court dates on more than one occasion. They found out they were facing certain death after their son was killed, and then Randy Weaver was shot, and then Vicki Weaver was killed. They found out what kind of psychotic scumbags they were facing when the FBI negotiators kept asking them, "Where's Vicki?" and asking if she made breakfast for them after they killed her. The Director of the FBI said the HRT's actions were wrong. The state court said the HRT's actions were wrong. The federal court said the HRT's actions were wrong. The US Senate said the HRT's actions were wrong. Mr. Monroe says they were just fine. They have no excuse You have no excuse. Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: Quoted: I will still be buying Troy products before during and after all of this internet drama. Same here. I saw this post first appear on the front page and knew it would be a shit storm. The people here are like a lynch mob, and there's nothing Troy could do to appease them. I wouldn't have even given them the satisfaction of an apology if I were Steve Troy. His business is perfectly sustainable catering just to military and law enforcement. I like the Troy slide on rear sling point rings, they save me the trouble of having to take off the buffer tube, especially if the castle nuts are staked. And to get so wound up about the Weavers? A bunch of criminal lunatics that, given a chance to surrender, knowing they were facing certain death, chose death with their kids in the line of fire. Yeah, try to sink an innovative, profitable gun company in their names. They weren't criminal lunatics. Randy Weaver was entrapped by the feds. They weren't given a chance to surrender. The US Attorney, in fact, fucked with their court dates on more than one occasion. They found out they were facing certain death after their son was killed, and then Randy Weaver was shot, and then Vicki Weaver was killed. They found out what kind of psychotic scumbags they were facing when the FBI negotiators kept asking them, "Where's Vicki?" and asking if she made breakfast for them after they killed her. The Director of the FBI said the HRT's actions were wrong. The state court said the HRT's actions were wrong. The federal court said the HRT's actions were wrong. The US Senate said the HRT's actions were wrong. Mr. Monroe says they were just fine. They have no excuse You have no excuse. Didn't the shotgun Weaver cut down was only a whopping 1/4' too short? All this over a 1/4' piece of steel?  |
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Posted: 8/26/2013 8:36:46 PM EST
[#32]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
You're not particularly well-informed. Two Weavers left, but it was in a rubber bag. Quote HistoryQuoted:
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And all of the Weavers would be alive today if they'd fought in court instead of being murdered in the woods. You're defending people who chose to have an armed standoff with a woman carrying a baby. Fixed by veracity injection. Any of them could have left at any point during the, what, 8 month long standoff? You're not particularly well-informed. Two Weavers left, but it was in a rubber bag. I know. I read the Wikipedia. I basically just imagine a lot of Dale Gribble types in this thread. I mean, Rusty Shacklefords. 
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Posted: 8/26/2013 8:36:59 PM EST
[#33]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
I'm not an paragon of objectivity, mind you.... ....but given the blind, cheerful support given to the .gov-sanctioned slaying of a mother holding her child after her son's murder, by a member with a tank icon - is it unfair that we coin a new epithet: Thin Green Line? This in no way reflects upon the honorable .mil members who have served our Republic, and respect and fulfill their oaths. But I AM suggesting a bootlicker is as reprehensible as a badge sniffer. Just sayin', is all. I'd be okay with this. The percent of dirtbags in the military is probably about the same as in LE fields. We shouldn't be blind to that possibility. |
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Posted: 8/26/2013 8:37:11 PM EST
[#34]
Senator LEAHY. Now, you said your wife was carrying a .380 semi-automatic pistol with about a 4-inch barrel? Mr. WEAVER. It was probably like a 2 1/2-inch barrel. Senator LEAHY. It is a small— Mr. WEAVER. Small sidearm. Senator LEAHY. Now, the FBI agents were approximately how far away from your cabin? Mr. WEAVER. They say about 200 meters, I believe. Senator LEAHY. So about 600 feet, a little over 600 feet, 650 feet. Mr. WEAVER. Yes, sir. Senator LEAHY. A .380 is not much of a threat at that distance, is it? Mr. WEAVER. I believe that—no. Senator LEAHY. I mean you are really talking about a weapon that loses accuracy once you go beyond the distance of this hearing room, are you not? Mr. WEAVER. When they shot her, sir, the only thing she had in her hand was my baby. Senator LEAHY. I understand. But even if she had been standing on the front steps with a gun in her hand and pointing it toward them that weapon is not much of a threat at that distance? Mr. WEAVER. No, sir. Senator LEAHY. That is the point I am making. Mr. WEAVER. No, sir. Senator LEAHY. However, we also had the door, window, and the shade there. Is that pretty accurate the way it looked at the time of the shooting? Mr. WEAVER. Oh, you mean like the curtains and everything? Senator LEAHY. Yes. Mr. WEAVER. I would have to—I, personally, I could not remember. I figured they were open part way. I cannot remember exactly where they were but I am positive they were open part way. One of my daughters thought she believed that they were tied back in the center like the wife used to do it and she released them later. I, personally, believe that they were open enough that Horiuchi knew she was standing there. I believe that without a doubt. Senator LEAHY. Again, standing there or anywhere else, a .380, relatively small hand gun, that is no threat at that distance. Let me ask you about when you said your children, your wife, yourself carried guns because of concern of animals. In talking with your children and wife, among yourselves, was that the only reason you carried guns when you left your cabin? Mr. WEAVER. It was just a real habit that we had. To this day I believe that, you know, a man should be able to pack a weapon. I am a gun advocate. But I believe in self-defense. Senator LEAHY. Was there a discussion among your family that that self-defense might include more than mountain lions, grizzly bears, moose? Mr. <big>WEAVER.</big> Only in the case of a natural disaster, people would need food. We had a lot of storage food up there. I taught my kids that the day may come when all heck breaks loose, there might be hungry people coming up there who would want to take their food. It has happened in many countries before during wartime and all that. Senator LEAHY. But you are talking about an apocalyptic breakdown circumstance? Mr. WEAVER. Oh, yes, sir. Senator LEAHY. Did you also talk about there may be Government agents coming there? Mr. WEAVER. I taught my children only in self-defense against anything, animal or people, or in the case of animals if they were going to shoot an animal they eat it. My children were taught never to point a gun at anybody. I did not tell my children, hey kids, if a Federal agent comes up here and starts shooting, no, no, sir. I would not do it. I love my kids too much. I love my family. I would never tell them to start anything with anybody. Senator LEAHY. Would you be willing to demonstrate for us how you remember the curtains were at the time of the shooting? I want you to show where you thought the curtains were, but then I want you to show the angle of the bullets between the window and the curtain. Mr. WEAVER. Show the what now? Senator LEAHY. There is a bullet hole in the window. Mr. WEAVER. Right. Senator LEAHY. There is a bullet hole that is in the curtain. Mr. WEAVER. Yes, that probably is right there. So that has got to come over a little further there. That much, no, a little more. Senator LEAHY. So, depending on which angle you go, you could move that back and forth, you could actually move that curtain a few inches either way and it would be in line with the—~— Mr. WEAVER. I see what you are saying. Senator LEAHY. If it was closed, would it even reflect the hole in the window? Mr. WEAVER. What do you mean, sir, reflect? Senator LEAHY. Well, close it, close the curtains. Mr. WEAVER. Oh, they are closed, OK. I thought you meant the door there. Senator LEAHY. Does the hole in the curtain even appear to be in line'? Mr. WEAVER. No, sir. And from what I understand, a weekend or so ago, when I was up there with ABC was the first time I got up to where they said the sniper was. He was shooting straight through this door. Senator LEAHY. OK. Mr. WEAVER. So that bullet hole or that curtain where the hole is had to be at least right there. Senator LEAHY. OK, thank you. Mr. WEAVER. You are welcome. Senator SPECTER. Thank you, very much, Senator Leahy. |
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Posted: 8/26/2013 8:37:35 PM EST
[#35]
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Any of them could have left at any point during the, what, 8 month long standoff? Quote HistoryQuoted:
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And all of the Weavers would be alive today if they'd fought in court instead of being murdered in the woods. You're defending people who chose to have an armed standoff with a woman carrying a baby. Fixed by veracity injection. Any of them could have left at any point during the, what, 8 month long standoff? Yep. All they needed to do was pick up the phone... The one on the robot with the sawed of shotgun attached. 
From "The Federal Siege At Ruby Ridge" Page 62: "Bo [Gritz] inspected the robot on the front porch. He discovered that along with the telephone they had been begging us to pick up, it was equipped with a camera and armed with a sawed-off shotgun aimed at the phone.". |
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Posted: 8/26/2013 8:37:37 PM EST
[#36]
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And all of the Weavers would be alive today if they'd fought in court instead of in the woods. You're defending people who chose to have an armed standoff with the man. Quote HistoryQuoted:
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I will still be buying Troy products before during and after all of this internet drama. Same here. I saw this post first appear on the front page and knew it would be a shit storm. The people here are like a lynch mob, and there's nothing Troy could do to appease them. I wouldn't have even given them the satisfaction of an apology if I were Steve Troy. His business is perfectly sustainable catering just to military and law enforcement. I like the Troy slide on rear sling point rings, they save me the trouble of having to take off the buffer tube, especially if the castle nuts are staked. And to get so wound up about the Weavers? A bunch of criminal lunatics that, given a chance to surrender, knowing they were facing certain death, chose death with their kids in the line of fire. Yeah, try to sink an innovative, profitable gun company in their names. Because everyone, even a criminal lunatic, is afforded due process. I like my multiple sets of Troy BUIS and rails. Their business decision is that they're better off focusing on military and law enforcement, and they hired some notorious characters. They proudly proclaimed it. Now we will all see how those decisions affect their business. They will probably do fine, just as you say. It's not getting wound about the Weavers. It's getting wound about someone who was a cheerleader for aggressive ROE that were well outside the ethical or legal bounds for domestic use of deadly force, being hired to continue training people. The Weavers needed to be brought to justice. It wasn't the on-site team's responsibility to summarily administer justice and execute, yet they abrogated their positions as holders of the public trust by doing just that. And all of the Weavers would be alive today if they'd fought in court instead of in the woods. You're defending people who chose to have an armed standoff with the man. The "MAN" shot first. 
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Posted: 8/26/2013 8:37:41 PM EST
[#37]
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Didn't the shotgun Weaver cut down was only a whopping 1/4' too short? All this over a 1/4' piece of steel?
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I will still be buying Troy products before during and after all of this internet drama. Same here. I saw this post first appear on the front page and knew it would be a shit storm. The people here are like a lynch mob, and there's nothing Troy could do to appease them. I wouldn't have even given them the satisfaction of an apology if I were Steve Troy. His business is perfectly sustainable catering just to military and law enforcement. I like the Troy slide on rear sling point rings, they save me the trouble of having to take off the buffer tube, especially if the castle nuts are staked. And to get so wound up about the Weavers? A bunch of criminal lunatics that, given a chance to surrender, knowing they were facing certain death, chose death with their kids in the line of fire. Yeah, try to sink an innovative, profitable gun company in their names. They weren't criminal lunatics. Randy Weaver was entrapped by the feds. They weren't given a chance to surrender. The US Attorney, in fact, fucked with their court dates on more than one occasion. They found out they were facing certain death after their son was killed, and then Randy Weaver was shot, and then Vicki Weaver was killed. They found out what kind of psychotic scumbags they were facing when the FBI negotiators kept asking them, "Where's Vicki?" and asking if she made breakfast for them after they killed her. The Director of the FBI said the HRT's actions were wrong. The state court said the HRT's actions were wrong. The federal court said the HRT's actions were wrong. The US Senate said the HRT's actions were wrong. Mr. Monroe says they were just fine. They have no excuse You have no excuse. Didn't the shotgun Weaver cut down was only a whopping 1/4' too short? All this over a 1/4' piece of steel?
It looks like all of that got thrown out. The only thing he technically did to violate the law was not showing up for his court date. You'd think they could have at least gotten him for resisting arrest, no? |
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Posted: 8/26/2013 8:37:51 PM EST
[#38]
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Didn't the shotgun Weaver cut down was only a whopping 1/4' too short? All this over a 1/4' piece of steel?
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I will still be buying Troy products before during and after all of this internet drama. Same here. I saw this post first appear on the front page and knew it would be a shit storm. The people here are like a lynch mob, and there's nothing Troy could do to appease them. I wouldn't have even given them the satisfaction of an apology if I were Steve Troy. His business is perfectly sustainable catering just to military and law enforcement. I like the Troy slide on rear sling point rings, they save me the trouble of having to take off the buffer tube, especially if the castle nuts are staked. And to get so wound up about the Weavers? A bunch of criminal lunatics that, given a chance to surrender, knowing they were facing certain death, chose death with their kids in the line of fire. Yeah, try to sink an innovative, profitable gun company in their names. They weren't criminal lunatics. Randy Weaver was entrapped by the feds. They weren't given a chance to surrender. The US Attorney, in fact, fucked with their court dates on more than one occasion. They found out they were facing certain death after their son was killed, and then Randy Weaver was shot, and then Vicki Weaver was killed. They found out what kind of psychotic scumbags they were facing when the FBI negotiators kept asking them, "Where's Vicki?" and asking if she made breakfast for them after they killed her. The Director of the FBI said the HRT's actions were wrong. The state court said the HRT's actions were wrong. The federal court said the HRT's actions were wrong. The US Senate said the HRT's actions were wrong. Mr. Monroe says they were just fine. They have no excuse You have no excuse. Didn't the shotgun Weaver cut down was only a whopping 1/4' too short? All this over a 1/4' piece of steel?
Correct. Gov't is force. |
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Posted: 8/26/2013 8:38:22 PM EST
[#39]
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Wikipedia suggests that Randy Weaver was charged with several crimes, and the only one that stuck was failure to appear. It is interesting that the federal agents started calling their encampment "Camp Vicki" after shooting Weaver's wife. And calling out to her every morning with bullhorns while she lay dead on the floor. That seems a little questionable\sadistic. The backstory on what happened with Randy Weaver is long and ugly. The ATF wanted someone to spy on the Aryan Nation on the property next to Weaver. Weaver didn't want to do it. An ATF informant persuaded Weaver to cut down two shotguns. Weaver refused to cut the barrels shorter than 18", but didn't know about the 26" OAL rule. Weaver was acquitted on that charge. Weaver said the guns were legal when he gave them to the informant and the informant modified them. Kevin Harris was acquitted of murdering U.S. Marshall Degan. Lon Horiuchi was indicted for manslaughter in Idaho. He fought the charge to the U.S. Ninth Circuit Court, which upheld the indictment on the grounds that qualified immunity for a federal agent did not apply to what Horiuchi did. By the time it got back to the state court, the prosecutor decided to drop the matter. |
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Posted: 8/26/2013 8:39:52 PM EST
[#40]
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Regardless, this seems like a relatively minor thing to hate Troy Industries for. Because some guy that said something you disagree with about something that happened 20 years ago works for them? And in a department where they're not even teaching shooting, IIRC, but EOD type stuff, emergency management and tactics? That makes it even worse. The guy said he agreed with the illegal rules of engagement and would have done the same thing if he had the chance. Now he's going to teach tactics. |
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Posted: 8/26/2013 8:40:05 PM EST
[#41]
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I know. I read the Wikipedia. I basically just imagine a lot of Dale Gribble types in this thread. I mean, Rusty Shacklefords. Quote HistoryQuoted:
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And all of the Weavers would be alive today if they'd fought in court instead of being murdered in the woods. You're defending people who chose to have an armed standoff with a woman carrying a baby. Fixed by veracity injection. Any of them could have left at any point during the, what, 8 month long standoff? You're not particularly well-informed. Two Weavers left, but it was in a rubber bag. I know. I read the Wikipedia. I basically just imagine a lot of Dale Gribble types in this thread. I mean, Rusty Shacklefords. Can't see 'em; the Quislings and Goebbels' keep getting in the way. 
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Posted: 8/26/2013 8:40:25 PM EST
[#42]
Yes, he was entrapped into making a 1/4 inch too short shotgun.
His compound home was stormed because of that violation. The Weavers had been a pain in the butt of the authorities and they paid for that. How were they paid.........some were murdered and Monroe was a part of that scenario. |
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Posted: 8/26/2013 8:40:35 PM EST
[#43]
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Didn't the shotgun Weaver cut down was only a whopping 1/4' too short? All this over a 1/4' piece of steel?
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I will still be buying Troy products before during and after all of this internet drama. Same here. I saw this post first appear on the front page and knew it would be a shit storm. The people here are like a lynch mob, and there's nothing Troy could do to appease them. I wouldn't have even given them the satisfaction of an apology if I were Steve Troy. His business is perfectly sustainable catering just to military and law enforcement. I like the Troy slide on rear sling point rings, they save me the trouble of having to take off the buffer tube, especially if the castle nuts are staked. And to get so wound up about the Weavers? A bunch of criminal lunatics that, given a chance to surrender, knowing they were facing certain death, chose death with their kids in the line of fire. Yeah, try to sink an innovative, profitable gun company in their names. They weren't criminal lunatics. Randy Weaver was entrapped by the feds. They weren't given a chance to surrender. The US Attorney, in fact, fucked with their court dates on more than one occasion. They found out they were facing certain death after their son was killed, and then Randy Weaver was shot, and then Vicki Weaver was killed. They found out what kind of psychotic scumbags they were facing when the FBI negotiators kept asking them, "Where's Vicki?" and asking if she made breakfast for them after they killed her. The Director of the FBI said the HRT's actions were wrong. The state court said the HRT's actions were wrong. The federal court said the HRT's actions were wrong. The US Senate said the HRT's actions were wrong. Mr. Monroe says they were just fine. They have no excuse You have no excuse. Didn't the shotgun Weaver cut down was only a whopping 1/4' too short? All this over a 1/4' piece of steel?
It was leverage they tried to use to get him to become a government informant, he refused, was arrested, charged, etc and then in a clusterfuck of epic proportions, sent the wrong court date and he didn't show because he was given the wrong date. Rather than wait to see if he'd show up on the date they had sent him, they "executed" the arrest warrant, shot his sone and dog, leading to the stand-off. |
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Posted: 8/26/2013 8:40:56 PM EST
[#44]
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Yep. All they needed to do was pick up the phone... The one on the robot with the sawed of shotgun attached.[roll eyes] From "The Federal Siege At Ruby Ridge" Page 62: "Bo [Gritz] inspected the robot on the front porch. He discovered that along with the telephone they had been begging us to pick up, it was equipped with a camera and armed with a sawed-off shotgun aimed at the phone.". Quote HistoryQuoted:
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And all of the Weavers would be alive today if they'd fought in court instead of being murdered in the woods. You're defending people who chose to have an armed standoff with a woman carrying a baby. Fixed by veracity injection. Any of them could have left at any point during the, what, 8 month long standoff? Yep. All they needed to do was pick up the phone... The one on the robot with the sawed of shotgun attached.[roll eyes] From "The Federal Siege At Ruby Ridge" Page 62: "Bo [Gritz] inspected the robot on the front porch. He discovered that along with the telephone they had been begging us to pick up, it was equipped with a camera and armed with a sawed-off shotgun aimed at the phone.". Holy smokes. Armed robots in the 1990s? |
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Posted: 8/26/2013 8:40:58 PM EST
[#45]
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That ARMS buis is garbage, they said. Get a Troy, they said. I have an ARMS sight, but they haven't sued me yet. I am very disappointed. |
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Posted: 8/26/2013 8:42:58 PM EST
[#46]
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Thanks for the reply OP. However, until Monroe is fired I will not buy any Troy products in the future. I'll never again buy a troy product....makes no difference now what they do....
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Posted: 8/26/2013 8:43:06 PM EST
[#47]
I didn't mean to get involved in some sort of Ruby Ridge argument (since I know pretty much nothing about it.) I just don't think that what Troy has done merits the response they're getting. We're all entitled to our opinions though.
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Posted: 8/26/2013 8:43:13 PM EST
[#48]
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Well, I'd recommend you not get in an armed standoff that you can't foresee winning. You'll get deaded. And it appears that Randy Weaver was convicted of failure to appear stemming from short barrel shotgun charges that were later dismissed. Essentially he chose to defy the man rather than go to court. "The FBI had been in the area for a full day, and had deployed snipers to within 200 yards of the cabin, yet the occupants were never alerted or warned to surrender. The first they learned that they were under siege was when Horiuchi's bullet struck Randy Weaver. Had Horiuchi identified himself as a law enforcement officer and ordered them to surrender, it is entirely possible they would have come out with their hands in the air, and the tragedy could have been averted. But when the two men and young girl found themselves the tar-gets of an unseen, unidentified sniper, what were they to do? By failing to give a warning, Horiuchi left Harris and the Weavers no option except to fight or flee, escalating an already dangerous situation. Having used deadly force without a warning, Horiuchi is only entitled to immunity if he could have reasonably believed that giving a warning in this case would be futile or dangerous." http://fl1.findlaw.com/news.findlaw.com/cnn/docs/rubyridge/idhoriuchi60501.pdf |
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Posted: 8/26/2013 8:43:27 PM EST
[#49]
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Yes, he was entrapped into making a 1/4 inch too short shotgun. His HOME was stormed because of that violation. The Weavers had been a pain in the butt of the authorities and they paid for that. How were they paid.........some were murdered and Monroe was a part of that scenario. FIFY |
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Posted: 8/26/2013 8:43:56 PM EST
[#50]
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I have an ARMS sight, but they haven't sued me yet. I am very disappointed. Quote HistoryQuoted:
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That ARMS buis is garbage, they said. Get a Troy, they said. I have an ARMS sight, but they haven't sued me yet. I am very disappointed. KAC FTW |
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