The study shows that groundwater contaminated with methane is more common near a gas well.  Imagine that!  Places that have lots of subsurface methane attract gas wells, and the water  in those same areas has methane contamination - must be the gas wells causing it, eh?  

Aside from not answering the question of whether the chicken or the egg came first, the study fails to find fracing as the problem and specfically notes that none of the chemicals involved in fracing were found in groundwater - which does raise the question of how methane is migrating to groundwater but the chemicals responsible for freeing that methane are not if fracing is involved.

Just a quick synopsis for those who relied on a blogger's interpretation of the study rather than the actual study.

And by the way, using seawater for fracing?  Most people do not realize it but salt water can be a thousand times worse than oil.  Spill some oil and that site can be remediated in a few years.  Spill some saltwater and depending on the salinity you may have ruined all the groundwater AND made a desert of the place.  I'd rather see a spill of fracing fluid than a spill of saltwater from one of these wells.

Cold Fusion Strikes again!!!!



Part in red makes me smell the BS. Scientists share the data and the setup so others can confirm the experiment. This is how we prove science in the real world.

Also if Fracing is such a horrible thing you really need to drive down to a strip mine and have a look around.

I built a cold fusion rig that, 50% of the time, works every time. I can't share details with you, but if you want to buy one for $50,000 I'll send one to you. Not bad for a 50% chance at unlimited power!

Have been 40,000+ frack jobs in Kansas since the first one in 1947, not a single instance of a groundwater aquifer harmed by the fracking process.  We have a few plumes from surface spills and poor disposal practices in the 50's & 60's, but nothing caused by the fracking itself.

Here we are fracking at 5,000 feet and the aquifer is 700 ft at its deepest. Give around 4,000 feet of shales and limestones as a buffer against the fluids migrating.

I guarantee you ARFCOM does OK at getting that wealth.  Putting aside all the guys working for that industry who like AR15s, there are more than a few who are leasing minerals as well.  Not to mention the people who are drilling under their own homes and getting paid from both ends.

I have 177 acres just west and south of where the Ohio boom is at now. C'mon down fellas and spread some love!

I know a guy who's daughter just got 4k an acre advance on 230 acres. That might not be wealth in BSOG's house but it is in mine. She will still get royalties on the Gas and Oil produced.

Yup......

If true about the movie, the news whores and Obama supports will promote it.



Reset the 4 more year counter



 

I'm just drinkin' tonight.............I got nothin'.  

Hydrochloric Acid-   Concentrated hydrochloric acid (fuming hydrochloric acid) forms acidic mists. Both the mist and the solution have a corrosive effect on human tissue, with the potential to damage respiratory organs, eyes, skin, and intestines. Upon mixing hydrochloric acid with common oxidizing chemicals, such as sodium hypochlorite (bleach, NaClO) or potassium permanganate (KMnO4), the toxic gas chlorine is produced

Glutaraldehyde-  As a strong disinfectant, glutaraldehyde is toxic and can cause severe eye, nose, throat, and lung irritation, along with headaches, drowsiness and dizziness. It is a main source of occupational asthma among health care providers

Quaternary ammonium cation-  Quaternary ammonium compounds can display a range of health effects, amongst which are mild skin and respiratory irritation [11] up to severe caustic burns on skin and gastro-intestinal lining (depending on concentration), gastro-intestinal symptoms (e.g., nausea and vomiting), coma, convulsions, hypotension and death.[12]

They are thought to be the chemical group responsible for anaphylactic reactions that occur with use of neuromuscular blocking drugs during general anaesthesia in surgery.[13] Quaternium-15 is the single most often found cause of allergic contact dermatitis of the hands (16.5% in 959 cases)[14]

[edit] Reproductive effects of trace amounts

Quaternary ammonium-based disinfectants (Virex and Quatricide) were tentatively identified (by researcher Patricia Hunt - who previously uncovered the reproductive system effects of bisphenol A) and were also identified by researchers at other labs, as the most probable cause of jumps in birth defects and fertility problems in caged lab mice


OK so by posting that list are you trying to reassure people that this whole process is safe?? the three things I just posted are the first 3 on the LOOOONG list of shit in the fracking chemistry and I don't know about you but I am not reassured.  What you need to do is start drinking this stuff on a regular basis and come back and tell me in a couple of years how you feel then you can frack away.  I guess my point is really moot though because the fix is in and all the politicians (at least th ones in PA) are bought off and the fracking is here so you win and now we are the health test case.

Tell you what. I'll drink a gallon of that stuff and you go without any energy created by fossil fuels or thier derivitives for 3 years.  In 3 years, we get back together and see who is living with a better quality of life. Deal?

Jip, do you eat ground beef?

Nope...

But why does this need to be about me.

Well, now that we know what some of the chemicals do when intensely concentrated, can anyone tell us what concentrations they're used in? KeithJ I think once worte a lengthy post explaining that most of that shit is pretty dilute.

Ok, no ground beef.

Chips Ahoy? Cheese? Milk?

What about salt?

when you look at the concentrations based on the volume of water involved, the effects of some of those would be negligible––you could probably drink HCl at that dilution, for example.  things like endocrine disruptors are more troubling, since any dose causes damage, and they accumulate across trophic levels.  but i don't know enough biochemistry to be able to recognize any by name.

Yep, some of that stuff is nasty shit.  Please tell us how any of it comes in contact with ground water.  Oh, maybe provide some proof that it has ever happened.

i dont know much about fracking but most of the negative stuff ive read/heard has come from liberals.  Therefore, I support fracking.

I heard that the majority of liberals are against giving money to me. Would you prefer to send a check or use Paypal?

Sounds like he is behind on his derp quota for this month and needs to get his numbers in.

I've been involved with completions for many years. I've had a direct hand in well over 1,000 frac jobs. Probably over 10,000 frac'd zones... I also do cement at times.

The word "frac" (fracturing) describes hydraulic well stimulation. Since each specific well is treated individually and the fluid system is engineered to that specific well, there is no one "cookie cutter" approach to "frac'ing".

There is no one answer. But to give a broad answer, the volume of WATER (brine) used in a frac job is astronomical (GD's mouth breathers don't comprehend barrels, so lets use gallons.... > 1 million gallons is typical) GD can't comprehend the sheer amount of fluid pumped downhole. Since GD can't visualize the amount of water, no answer about dilution of chemicals will calm GD's pitchforks and torches.




Hydraulic well stimulation is a groundwater safe practice. EPA studies concur with my statement. /thread

I shall emphasize.

As one who used to fill frac tanks and Poseidon tanks, both small and large, I know how much water is used LOL. Got boring to pump loads of water into a Poseidon and not see hardly any progress. Or run a frac heater on a Poseidon for 72 hours just to heat it up enough so it wouldn't take too long to heat the working tanks in between stages. Fun times, but I value the home time with the family more then the good money the oilfield has to offer. I would do it again if I wasn't married.

I would try to get back on with a frac heating company if I was to do it again. One of the easiest, most monotonous, jobs in the patch. Take cold water, make it hot, very hot. Some folks would be amazed at the amount of propane used to heat that much water up to around 78 degrees. When I was tasked with running our propane transport for some frac jobs around here I was making multiple trips between Cheyenne and the locations a day,  with a 5000 gallon transport to keep the frac heaters topped off. Would have sucked to run out in the middle of a frac.

OK so now we have 100% faith in the federal government nd the EPA even though one of the major reasons fracking has exploded is what they called the "haliburton exemption" where during the bush administration the specificaly exempted fracking from EPA regulations.

From the link I posted...


I don't know about the EPA studies you are quoting but you might want to link to them as fracking was specificaly exempted from EPA regulations.

I'm not talking about contamination propagating through the wellbore or anything unique to fracking, and I don't think he was either.   I'm talking about surface runoff of oil and other production fluids in whatever small concentrations into streams>lakes from the well sites, or just soaking into the ground and affecting the water table.  




 

Ummm, it's most definitely in our backyard .  I hope it grows.

That's a great theory but that was just the first three in a list of what 50-60?? on the conservative side, I didn't count them but it could come close to 100 count them for yourself there are a lot.  So sure if it were just those 3 you could say that in all that water they can be dilluted but there are a LOT of different ones with each one of them with the exception of a few  that are just as dangerous as the 3 I posted.  Besides if the chemicals that are in "fracking fluid" are so dilluted what exactly would be the point of using them?? why not just use water if the mixture is a dilluted mixture of chemicals that is mostly water?.

They started fracing the Newark East field in Texas in the 1990s.  At this point, pretty much the entire city of Fort Worth, Texas - a major metropolitan area has been subject to hydraulic fracturing; including vast chunks of the Trinity River Water District.

Obama will shut down any growth in the fossil fuel energy sector.

The well driller is correct if all is done well fracking is pretty safe. Problem being when wells get old, In as little as ten years a significant number of wells have casing cracks and leak and the number grows as they get older. Main reason is they don't use stainless pipe, new industry best practices suggest stainless pipe but nobody has made it a requirement yet. Why cause it cost more, it makes sense but heck it cost more!

So you are OK with Preserving water when there is a drought while the frackers are sucking that water district dry.  So as the story says you cannot water your lawn that will arguably drain back into the water table but the frackers can suck out as much water that will never be returned as they want.  Besides I am not sure that that place is anything to be proud of.

And with the overabundance of fracking natural gas prices are going way down so the margins are getting slimmer and slimmer surely barring any new "safety" investments.

You do understand that the EPA oversees a lot of laws besides the Safe Drinking Water Act right?  Fracing is subject to the NPDES (surface spills) as well as Underground Injection Controls.  And fracing involving the use of diesel fiels is still subject to the Safe Water Drinking Act.  The way you wrote that makes it sound as if fracing is totally exempt from EPA oversight - which is untrue.

"EPA began a study on hydraulic fracturing used in coalbed methane reservoirs in 1999 to evaluate the potential risks to USDWs. The study focused on coalbed methane reservoirs because they are typically closer to the surface and in greater proximity to USDWs compared to conventional gas reservoirs. EPA published the coalbed methane study, entitled Evaluation of Impacts to Underground Sources of Drinking Water by Hydraulic Fracturing of Coalbed Methane Reservoirs (EPA 816-R-04-003) in 2004. The published study received both internal and external peer review, and public comment on study design and incident information.  EPA concluded that there was little to no risk of fracturing fluid contaminating underground sources of drinking water during hydraulic fracturing of coalbed methane production wells.  EPA retained the right, however, to conduct additional studies in the future. " http://water.epa.gov/type/groundwater/uic/class2/hydraulicfracturing/wells_hydrowhat.cfm

Yes it sounds like the EPA is all for it...



By the way you might want to take a second look as there is a new study but they are going to wait till 2014 till the put out any results...

1.  No, I don't really give a shit that an activity that uses 50-60 times less water than people who live in a desert trying to maintain golf course lawns might be an inconvenience to those same people - especially when that activity generates billions of dollars worth of good-paying jobs and $2 per MCF natural gas - a cheap, clean energy source.

2.  So I point out that they are fracing under the Trinity River for the past decade or so with no contamination of the water and your response is that the Trinity River is polluted by sewage and urban runoff.  What kind of idiotic non-sequitr is that exactly?

Yeah, and what happened to those carburetors that were good for 75mpg that the oil companies nixed from the production line?

So is our environmental standard now that anything that can cause damage when done improperly must be banned?  Because I don't think even Stone Age sources of energy can pass that test.  You seem to feel the fact that drilling a flawed well can result in underground water contamination is a point against fracing; but it is true of ANY well (including water wells).  Are we going to stop adding even water wells because it can be done wrong?  Are you reasoning this out at all or are you just wasting my time by making a poor attempt at Internet gotcha?



I'll be happy to take a second look when the study is released in 2014.  I make money either by suing oil companies or helping them comply with the law, so it is win-win for me.  I can't very well take a look at a study that has not been released though.  Besides coalbed methane fracturing actually runs into some water tables.  If that is no danger to water contamination, I'll be shocked to discover that the same process 6,000 feet deeper is a problem.

You know that you can build things without patenting them, right? Like, you could just go invent something and start building it right this fucking second without involving the PTO at all. If, for instance, you built a crazy magical fusion reactor which some mythical PTO lackey round filed, you could earn the undying love and affection and adulation of everyone everywhere all of the time forever, as well as a bottomless well of money from soeaking engagements and consultations even if you couldn't patent your reactor thst doesn't exist and so somebody copied it.

So what you're saying is that the university of milan discovered a technology that would literally improve the lives of everyone on earth to a degree unheard of since the dawn of civilization and the agricultural, financial, and industrial revolutions, and they're sitting on it... Because one PTO in one country won't give them a couple of decades of monopoly over it?

Uh... Huh.

I've read the reports and heard the concerns, but I think we need to work through this.  IF this does damage to the water table as alleged  then obviously its a none-solution.  But so far all I've seen are people who don't understand basic science being stirred up by agenda driven activist with a lot of scary sounding language.  












 

I wish idiots would at least learn how to spell frac as it comes from the proper term "hydraulic fracturing" Do you see a K in that?
Especially since this is nothing new, was first done in 1947.

and yes, I have drank frac fluid!
It's not the greatest, but guess what, I can get all of the ingredients from your kitchen.

If all fracing does is drop the price of oil $10 a barrel and I am an Arabian oil sheikh, then fracing is potentially costing me hundreds of billions of dollars a day even with that kind of mild impact.  It isn't by accident that United Arab Emirates is funding Matt Damon's anti-fracing film.  Hell, I can spend a billion dollars to prop up "green" opposition to fracing and it would be money well spent.  I'd make my money back in a day if it works.

You will be ignored, just as my offer was. ITS DANGEROUS TO LIFE, DAMMIT

Can't wait to run the jeep on natural gas.

This is old news isn't it?

The libtards will do everything they can to stop it.

Why(?) because they are stupid that is why.

JIP's concerns have been answered over and over and OVER again........yet they still DO NOT listen.

They are unconvincable......don't waste your time.

I doubt the current Administration will go balls into this fracking extraction method.

Remember they are the Party who still believes the fraudulent data presented to prove manmade global warming.

They are hopeless.  They think we can meet all our energy needs with non-fossil fuels.  Why do they think this is possible(?), once again, because they are stupid.

Elections have consequences and our ultimate failure to capitalize on fracking will probably be one consequence of this last election.

Nothing has been answered, nothing has been cleared up things just keep coming out that show we are being lied to.  Did you get the "answers" from the SUNY Buffalo department that was just booted from the school for being a propaganda department for the frackers.  Hell any time the DEP in PA takes a water sample locally they have to clear it with Harrisburg where they have someone from the gas industry appointed to approve it.

Wait, what?

Fusion? I'm not finding anything on google.

My water and that of my whole town tastes and looks different then it did before they built the drilling pad out by our resident big lake o drinking water.  They've done over nine thousand tests on it and they all show "clean and safe" but it is definitely different then before.  A town a few miles away had to have water provided by the drilling company for a few months due to a spill that contaminated their drinking water.  While overall it may not be a problem some things certainly do happen.  Sure this isn't the norm but shit can happen.

If done correctly there may not be a problem but in my neck of the woods there's been ton's of issues with unscrupulous frac'ers doing things like dumping the brine in old coal mines, "stealing" water from streams and running houses out of drinking water, unreported leaks, etc. that a few of us PA'ers have an unfavorable view of the practice.  It's more a problem with how the companies do business and who they hire then the actual practice of frac'ing.

To me frac'ing is similar to coal power; probably not the best thing around but you gotta do what you gotta do.  I see no issues as long as the people doing the frac'ing are mindful that we live here and will do so after they leave and have a little respect.  If this was, literally, happening in your backyard and next to every water source in your county you'd be a little concerned about your water as well, whether or not there is scientific evidence.  Kinda common sense, something new starts happening next to what you drink out of, might wanna be vigilant about it.  Can you blame us?  Our kids and old people drink it daily.

I'm not saying "frac'ing is bad" I'm just saying that it can and does have real-world consequences to the communities that it happens in and don't write of every single person that mentions a negative about it as an Obama-voting liberal, that's just stupid.  We obviously have a few details to iron out with this yet.  I kill, skin and eat more things (alot of it fish) then most of GD does and spend dozens of nights in the woods hiking and backpacking each year, just want to know that my kids will be able to do the same without fear.

This was my point on page 1. I recall someone saying "spills can't happen". Clearly wrong.

I'd be surprised if any of those activities were legal - and to the extent they are illegal, the activities need to be documented well, reported to the state agency in charge of oil and gas, and those companies need to have the piss sued out of them right down to the individual employees responsible.  That should be the real world consequence of doing illegal things - not putting people out of business for doing it right.

i live in fracking central -southwest pa.  the real problem with fracking is what is done with the brine after the well has been fracked. a lot of that shit is ending up in the monongahela river  the river that supplies all of south west pa with water