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Quoted: What % of an airborne division is on jump status? View Quote close to 100? We constantly jumped to maintain jump status. Only ones not jumping were guys on profile. Even HQ fucks and officers who had no business jumping jumped. This was Italy. Way more jump opportunities at Bragg. Quoted: When did that become a thing? It’s been a while, but in Iraq our SF group told our augmentees to wear the patch they came with, and I thought big Army decided the same. What the AR and NG does when they get home is probably another thing entirely. View Quote Not sure when, but you can wear whatever unit you were assigned to for deployment as a deployment patch. I saw that a lot. |
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Quoted: In an actual no shit contested mass drop isn’t the projected losses pretty bad? Like 40% combat effective after the drop or something like that? View Quote A contested amphibious landing is going to be bloody as well. The fact of the matter is that large scale combat operations against a well equipped and trained enemy will produce casualty rates that most Americans can’t comprehend anymore. As an engineer I was taught to plan for 50% casualties in breaching operations against a near peer threat. That meant any engineer unit you planned on using for the breach would need to be reconstituted afterward. |
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Quoted: We seized Afghanistan with like 10 ODA's. View Quote View All Quotes View All Quotes Quoted: Quoted: LOL, no. You’re not seizing any country bigger than Luxembourg with a single division. We seized Afghanistan with like 10 ODA's. Probably not a good example to make the point. I doubt most Afghans noticed. |
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Quoted: What % of an airborne division is on jump status? View Quote Depends, I’ve only ever seen 1 leg in the 82nd - a warrant officer but 11th Airborne has 1 brigade on jump status but 1st brigade is not. Similar to WW2 with the glider regiments although all of 11th attended jump school by the end of the war even glider regiments if I recall. I vaguely remember a couple temporary legs at RR back in the 80s. Attached File |
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Quoted: Marine paratrooper > Army paratrooper https://www.ar15.com/media/mediaFiles/367483/Screen_Shot_2021-11-10_at_6_36_02_PM-2516330.png View Quote Gold wings are nice. Had an NCO at 25th ID light fighter wearing USMC wings on his BDUs just before 9/11. He got peppered with questions daily over those wings. |
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Quoted: They both are elite units and it is hard to quantify Having said that army units who have worked with both would rather work with the Marines. The Marines treated them fairly while the 82nd treated them with disdain. There is a lot of issues in the army in the way units are treated amongst themselves to include guard and reserve units. I saw it first hand in the 21 years I spent in the army and guard. View Quote Of course, there is. If you spend one weekend a month and one month of summer camp then claim to be as good as someone that does it 52 week a year, then either: 1. You are full of shit 2. we should disband the Army/Navy/Marines/Air force and go to 100% Guard/Reservists. There is a reason Guard/Reserve units had to go thru intensive training before heading to the sandbox. |
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Quoted: close to 100? We constantly jumped to maintain jump status. Only ones not jumping were guys on profile. Even HQ fucks and officers who had no business jumping jumped. This was Italy. Way more jump opportunities at Bragg. Not sure when, but you can wear whatever unit you were assigned to for deployment as a deployment patch. I saw that a lot. View Quote View All Quotes View All Quotes Quoted: close to 100? We constantly jumped to maintain jump status. Only ones not jumping were guys on profile. Even HQ fucks and officers who had no business jumping jumped. This was Italy. Way more jump opportunities at Bragg. Not sure when, but you can wear whatever unit you were assigned to for deployment as a deployment patch. I saw that a lot. This guy says it’s 15,000. Which is it? I don’t think that people quite understand the amount of support units in a division. Quoted: There’s around 15,000 paratroopers. It’s a light infantry division with organic combat engineers, field artillery, and combat service/support. It was 100% on jump status. Not sure if it still is. |
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Quoted: Of course, there is. If you spend one weekend a month and one month of summer camp then claim to be as good as someone that does it 52 week a year, then either: 1. You are full of shit 2. we should disband the Army/Navy/Marines/Air force and go to 100% Guard/Reservists. There is a reason Guard/Reserve units had to go thru intensive training before heading to the sandbox. View Quote Pretty much every unit went through training before deploying. NTC, JRTC, etc. The thing is, when you went to training with the guard it was training. A lot of those active duty 52 weeks a year are a waste of time doing nothing. |
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Quoted: A lot of you guys are getting wrapped up in the different missions, capabilities, equipment, etc. If you were to randomly select 1000 17-21 year old Infantrymen with less than two years of service from each, 1000 22-25 with five or less years of service, and 500 26- 30, etc. Give them an IQ test, time them on the same obstacle course, 2.5 mile run, etc. you see that each are a pool of similar quality density that sought out an assignment above the average .mil gig. The will both have a quality density below that of Ranger Bn, SF, MASOC, SEALs, etc. but above the military Gen pop males. View Quote This guy gets it... Want proof?? Review the video of the Marine getting knocked out by the Aussie Bouncer. And I'm sure there are also vids showing the same thing with paratroopers. They both know how to go into town...get drunk...come back to barracks and hang the new guy from the third story balcony, 90MPH taped inside is sleeping bag. Not exactly an Eelight skill set. |
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Quoted: It’s been brigade sized for Army since WW2 so far and I still don’t have mustard stains View Quote View All Quotes View All Quotes Quoted: Quoted: Even in WW2 they only had a couple rgts capable. I doubt very much they can jump in with anything bigger than a company. It’s been brigade sized for Army since WW2 so far and I still don’t have mustard stains I almost got my mustard stain for Uphold Democracy back in 1994. Jimmy Carter needs to rot in hell for treason for interfering in a military operation. Idiot! |
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Quoted: Pretty much every unit went through training before deploying. NTC, JRTC, etc. The thing is, when you went to training with the guard it was training. A lot of those active duty 52 weeks a year are a waste of time doing nothing. View Quote Except better maintaining physical standards, building unit cohesion, daily training, and building some sort of mental toughness that kept them from breaking down halfway through the deployment. |
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Quoted: This guy says it’s 15,000. Which is it? I don’t think that people quite understand the amount of support units in a division. View Quote You asked for percent. I said close to 100%, which is the same thing the other guys said... Support guys jump too, not just Infantry. Anyone wearing a parachutist badge who is in an airborne unit jumps. Infantry. Cooks. Chaplain. |
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Quoted: Umm, you drop the 82nd in and they run around doing their thing for a few days then what? They can only be self sufficient for a short period of time. you bring a marine division and you can spread hate and discontent for years. So yeah, ill take a division of marines every time. Plus one good SAM site can make the 82nd disappear. View Quote There’s always something. Ukraine is holding off Russia from seizing Odessa with mines |
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Quoted: Except better maintaining physical standards, building unit cohesion, daily training, and building some sort of mental toughness that kept them from breaking down halfway through the deployment. View Quote The physical standards is true. Although people in the guard that cared about physical fitness maintained that on their own. Unit cohesion is iffy because guys are only spending 3 or so years in one unit and moving around. Guard could spend 20+ years in the same place. |
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Quoted: Pretty much every unit went through training before deploying. NTC, JRTC, etc. The thing is, when you went to training with the guard it was training. A lot of those active duty 52 weeks a year are a waste of time doing nothing. View Quote No. I trained for a year before going to NTC and then deploying. We were constantly doing LFX and STX and ranges or refitting for the next exercise. Be proud of your service and especially your deployment, but NG does not and will not ever equal AD. |
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Quoted: No. I trained for a year before going to NTC and then deploying. We were constantly doing LFX and STX and ranges or refitting for the next exercise. Be proud of your service and especially your deployment, but NG does not and will not ever equal AD. View Quote I was active duty. I don't remember constantly doing LFX or STX. There was a lot of downtime. |
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Quoted: I was active duty. I don't remember constantly doing LFX or STX. There was a lot of downtime. View Quote Your leadership did yall a disservice. We had a little downtime in Italy because we had to go to other countries to train. But at Hood we never stopped. Obviously I'm not saying I was in the field all day every day. Just that there was always work going on gearing up for the deployment for over a year, which is not something NG can do. |
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Quoted: The 11th Airborne patch is pretty goofy. https://www.ausa.org/sites/default/files/2022-06/HN%2011th%20ABN%20activation%202.jpg View Quote 87% of Army patches are goofy and a bunch no longer exist Attached File |
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I would ask who could show up with more and have the ability to fight for a determined amount of time.
Airborne is limited to what they can bring and how they are supplied but they are by far the quickest large scale response. If you don’t have air superiority, then they will of course have an issue getting there and staying there as far as logistics. The USMC division would have some of the same issues if the Navy does control the sea lanes. The MEF does arrive with impressive firepower and supplies….. far more the an airborne division would. As for individual men…. this has been done to death and neither side is gonna say the other is better…… but we all know it’s the Marine!!! ?? |
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Quoted: Your leadership did yall a disservice. We had a little downtime in Italy because we had to go to other countries to train. But at Hood we never stopped. Obviously I'm not saying I was in the field all day every day. Just that there was always work going on gearing up for the deployment for over a year, which is not something NG can do. View Quote Timeframes may be a lot different. I was active around 2008, 2009, 2010, etc. We were going to Afghanistan a lot during that time. |
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Wouldn't describe either as "elite". Both are best described as large conventional forces that use different methods of insertion to project power. IMHO, both are pretty good at what they do, and have a very rich history. Both are probably comprised of a similar type of young American male.
Quoted: Airborne > legs. View Quote There are actually jumpers in 1st MARDIV - but they are almost all MFF. Basic airborne is just a stepping stone if you wanna be a real jumper someday fight me |
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Quoted: This guy gets it... Want proof?? Review the video of the Marine getting knocked out by the Aussie Bouncer. And I'm sure there are also vids showing the same thing with paratroopers. They both know how to go into town...get drunk...come back to barracks and hang the new guy from the third story balcony, 90MPH taped inside is sleeping bag. Not exactly an Eelight skill set. View Quote For me personally, these are some of the “elite” Attached File Attached File Attached File |
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Quoted: I was active duty. I don't remember constantly doing LFX or STX. There was a lot of downtime. View Quote A lot depends on when/where you are stationed and who you worked for. I had a platoon sergeant going through a divorce. We spent lots of extra time in Area J actually training while other units spent their afternoons cleaning clean weapons or buffing hallways. JRTC/Panama/NTC....going somewhere at least twice a year with regular field time thrown in. |
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Quoted: The physical standards is true. Although people in the guard that cared about physical fitness maintained that on their own. Unit cohesion is iffy because guys are only spending 3 or so years in one unit and moving around. Guard could spend 20+ years in the same place. View Quote That leads to inbreeding, corporate (we've always done it that way) think, favoritism, etc. |
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Quoted: Of course, there is. If you spend one weekend a month and one month of summer camp then claim to be as good as someone that does it 52 week a year, then either: 1. You are full of shit 2. we should disband the Army/Navy/Marines/Air force and go to 100% Guard/Reservists. There is a reason Guard/Reserve units had to go thru intensive training before heading to the sandbox. View Quote And yet in Iraq the guard and reserve units were trained up before deploying as you state. After being in country in combat operations they were just as good as any active unit after several months. Studies have proven that guard, reserve and even draftee units after six months in combat are just as good as their active or regular army units. Regular army units have an initial advantage of being better trained than the others stated above but that distinction fades after several months of combat. But many guard and reserve units were still treated badly by their regular army counterparts even after having proved themselves in combat. The marines treated all army units equally regardless if they were active or reserve. And the Marine reserves are treated better by their active counterparts than the army treats their reserves. And though it is true in combat units the active army has an initial big advantage in training but in the support units the distinction is not as great. There are some guard and reserve units that are better in a support role than there active duty counterparts. Maintenance units for one tend to have a higher percentage of expertise than the active duty counterparts since a lot of the soldiers are full time mechanics in the civilian world. |
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Quoted: Your leadership did yall a disservice. We had a little downtime in Italy because we had to go to other countries to train. But at Hood we never stopped. Obviously I'm not saying I was in the field all day every day. Just that there was always work going on gearing up for the deployment for over a year, which is not something NG can do. View Quote Agree. During 3 years in 1-77 Armor, 2nd Brigade, 4ID, Ft. Carson; I spent over 180 nights every year in the field. Either Tank gunnery, FTXs, TEWTs, or prep for rotations to Ft. Irwin, or deployments to Ft. Irwin (that was pre-NTC). During 4 years as an AD advisor to a reserve unit, I spent Zero nights in the field, before the intensive pre-Desert Storm deployment. |
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Quoted: And yet in Iraq the guard and reserve units were trained up before deploying as you state. After being in country in combat operations they were just as good as any active unit after several months. Studies have proven that guard, reserve and even draftee units after six months in combat are just as good as their active or regular army units. Regular army units have an initial advantage of being better trained than the others stated above but that distinction fades after several months of combat. But many guard and reserve units were still treated badly by their regular army counterparts even after having proved themselves in combat. The marines treated all army units equally regardless if they were active or reserve. And the Marine reserves are treated better by their active counterparts than the army treats their reserves. And though it is true in combat units the active army has an initial big advantage in training but in the support units the distinction is not as great. There are some guard and reserve units that are better in a support role than there active duty counterparts. Maintenance units for one tend to have a higher percentage of expertise than the active duty counterparts since a lot of the soldiers are full time mechanics in the civilian world. View Quote So you are agreeing wih me. In a "come as you are war" AD> RC/NG. NO MORE TASK FORCE SMITHs. |
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Would a better comparison be 82nd vs older MEUSOC units? Is there currently a MEUSOC type program in place in the Marines these days?
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Quoted: My dad was in the 2nd Div also. Same places as your grandfather. Dad was on a flamethrower team. View Quote Badass Attached File |
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I’d say they are kind of equal however I’ve been out of the USMC for a while. One possible non-equaliser is the Army, at least used to, keep broke-dick soldiers around while the USMC didn’t. I do not know if that applied to the 82nd.
Or, as an Army buddy used to say; ‘The Army keeps the Rangers around to have a few competent infantry available.’ |
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Quoted: 87% of Army patches are goofy and a bunch no longer exist https://www.ar15.com/media/mediaFiles/459941/11A76708-5980-4F44-8AAE-E2D04C23702D_jpe-2516458.JPG View Quote You should shut your whore mouth and never again besmirch the only Airborne unit to have conducted not one, but, two, parachute combat drops during the Korean War. The 187th Airborne Regimental Combat Team patch is anything but goofy. |
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Elite at what? Mowing grass? Coloring books? Drawing pics of dicks on everything?
It’s probably a tie when it comes to that sort of thing. |
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Quoted: So you are agreeing wih me. In a "come as you are war" AD> RC/NG. NO MORE TASK FORCE SMITHs. View Quote ? TF Smith was an AD unit. Anyway ive seen and heard all the soup sandwich talk back and forth between active and reserve officers, except with 19th or 20th SFG and it’s all white noise to me now. Active has shrunk too such a small sue it can’t perform peace time rotations on its own anymore so it’s a mute topic. 466K Army possibly dropping to 450K with Odierno terrified back in Obama days of a 420K sized Army being unable to do anything for the national defense strategy. Plus our allies have miniature and aging militaries. South Korea will cut in half by 2030. The Ukraine war is a harbinger of things to come for shortages of personnel. |
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Quoted: Marine paratrooper > Army paratrooper https://www.ar15.com/media/mediaFiles/367483/Screen_Shot_2021-11-10_at_6_36_02_PM-2516330.png View Quote View All Quotes View All Quotes Quoted: Quoted: Paratrooper > Marine. Fight me. Quoted: This post nailed it. Marine paratrooper > Army paratrooper https://www.ar15.com/media/mediaFiles/367483/Screen_Shot_2021-11-10_at_6_36_02_PM-2516330.png Having been both enlisted army, and a Marine, and a paratrooper...this man speaks the truth. It really isn't a fair comparison though, because ANGLICO and Reconnaissance Marines are more selectively bred group of animals than big Marine Corps. I'd put up ANGLICO or Recon as above (insert whatever other non-SOCOM, and many which are SOCOM) Army units any day. And I say that with great love for both services. |
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Elite?
Meh to both. Solid line units? Yep. But in a fight? USMC would win just for the simple fact they have more assets organic to them and a resupply base closer. |
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Quoted: He likely slid out the back of an OV-10. View Quote View All Quotes View All Quotes Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: Paratrooper > Marine. Fight me. This is more accurate and it actually takes some effort to get out if you aren't the number 1 jumper. More of a "scoot yourself out". |
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