The most desirable outcome in a self defense situation is one that the doc will never even see.

I didn't see any data in the article.  I saw one person's interpretation of anecdotes.

Doesn't matter, the DA will spin it against you no matter what caliber, or bullet style you use.

Disagree. Larger diameter means more chance of damaging something important. Ball ammo that is an 1/8 of an inch (0.125") from a major artery would mean cutting said artery open with the same shot placement using a hp that has a 1/4" greater diameter when expanded.

A Federal 147gr HST expands to about 0.66", which is almost twice a 0.35" ball ammo diameter. That is 0.15" more on either side.

I went for pinfire - shoot 'em right in the ass.  They always think that a skeeter got 'em.

And you can keister the gun and save money on holsters.

Disagree all you like, but the fact is HP ammo was designed specifically to prevent overpenetration.
That it creates a larger wound channel is a nice bonus.

Lethality isn’t my primary concern. Stopping the threat without getting shot or stabbed is my goal. If I brain shot makes him drop his gun I don’t care if he lives another 49-years

Witn the exception of those shot by police and suicide attempts it’s extremely unlikely an ER doctor has any idea what the patient was shot with. Especially with complete penetration.

The patient is not in the doctors care long enough for the police report to be written and police departments don’t send a copy of the reports when finished your the hospital.

What the article did not state was how quickly the attacker ceased their actions when shot.

That makes a difference to me.

1. Pistols suck 9mm or 45 etc.  The pistol game is to get as many hits as possible center mass(chest)

2.  Rifles/shotguns rule the roost. Everyone knows that.

I highly doubt the corner or ME can differentiate between a 9mm and 45 entrance or exit wounds.

How does one do thousands of autopsies on gsw victions when Memphis only had around 260 murders a year from all causes in your time frame?

This is not quite accurate/correct.

There is a threshold level of trauma that when exceeded, overloads the CNS and disables the target's motor control, and this is related to the energy delivered per hit.

Even below the velocities where the temporary stretch cavity exceeds the surrounding soft tissue's elastic capacity, greater energy delivered per hit, can exceed that threshold disabling the target sooner. While tgat tgreshold differs from individual to individual, a caliber/loading with double the ME, can still reach/exceed the threshold with fewer hits in the exact same spots.

As a real world example that may be easier for folks to visualize:

Kyokushin karate tournaments are full contact bareknuckle. No punches to the head. Punches to the body only, but kicks and knee strikes are allowed anywhere but the groin and knee joints. (*** Dolph Lundgren was a European Kyokushin Champ, and put Stallone in the hospital for 9 days with a bruised heart, during the filming for Rocky IV, when Stallone was dumb enough to tell Lundgren to "go for it").

Part of the Kyokushin training is torso impact conditioning, as competitors routinely trade punches to the torso, repeatedly.



In the conditioning training, gloves may be used (reduces the bruising that would result from bareknuckle impact). The fighter being conditioned, stands with arms raised, or behind their backs (leaving the front of the torso open), as the partner throws combinations all over the torso (heart, liver, spleen etc.) progressively hitting harder and harder.

For any given fighter, the harder the punches, the fewer it takes before they eventually buckle (unless you're impact conditioned AND have one heckuva fat layer, you simply can't withstand full power punches indefinitely. You can condition to take a few, but not repeated, consecutive unblocked hits).

The bullet impacts have a similar effect. Some folks will be able to withstand more of them (as mentioned exsanguination takes time, even when vitals are struck), but the significantly greater ME, can exceed that threshold faster (likewise, lower ME may not be able to trigger the nervous shock and loss of motor control threshold in some individuals, before exsanguination, much as a flurry of weaker body punches won't drop a conditioned fighter).

Difference between ~300ft-lbs and 400ft-lbs is minimal (just as conditioned fighters aren't going to be hampered much by body shots in that range).

But full power 10mm, .357, .44 etc. in the 7xx - 1000+ ft-lbs range, you're going to exceed that threshold with fewer hits (ESPECIALLY if ALL the energy is transferred with each shot, vs a pass through with FMJ that only transfers some of the energy).

That is a lot of words to say shot placement matters and after that the bigger the bullet the better because the more chance it will hit something important.

She failed to find that velocity matters and causes damage all by itself, but she did say rifles matter, which is the same thing I guess.

I also think he perspective is skewed.

It isn't weather a round kills somebody or not because you don't shoot to kill, you shoot to stop the threat.

and she has no data on how long those people that end up postmortem or in the ER continued or did not continue in the fight to be a threat after getting shot, which is the most important info.

The article the OP linked is the opinion of a PA, not a Doctor, who has an ongoing project to "get tourniquets and bleeding control kits right next to AED machines on the wall of every building". She has the perspective of treating GSW's that come to the ER, ie: peripheral vs. central wounds that bleed to death or not. She is also trying her best to get that message out and has a financial interest to do so. Her company teaches courses on trauma bleeding control.

The author of the article then uses more anecdotal evidence from "medical staff" that he spoke to off the record, that multiple hits and caliber size don't matter.

The one semi-scientific article he references as provided to him, -even he- admits they conflate projectile size without accounting for velocity. "It rated large bullets (irrespective of speed or weight...)  as 4.5 times more likely to kill than with smaller calibers"

I'll remember not to shoot people in the arms or legs and to have my own "blowout kit" with tourniquet available, but other than that I'll stick to standardized ballistic gel and barrier tests to decide what pistol caliber or bullet to use.

Sounds like another "jus as guuuud" argument.

FFS, train and carry a decent caliber with some kind of decent ammo (no shitbox ammo).

The tv show guns were both 45 10mm blanks weren’t available so Dornaus & Dixon built two specifically for filming that were set up to specifically run 45 blanks. Regular full size Bren tens could be had with 45 acp conversion kits though I don’t know how many there actually were produced.

Well, since the article starts with a premise that is completely irrelevant to the purposes of a self defense firearm, why would anybody interested in self defense use of a firearm care what it says.

Old age will kill.

We are after the most rapid incapacitating.

Just because the target is just as likely to die from fmj as jhp has no bearing on if they were stopped from further action equally as quickly.

Same argument, to a lesser extent, when comparing calibers.

It actually pisses me off that such BS is published as "expert opinion" because there are a bunch of people who don't know better, or don't think it through who base decisions off of it.

Is that why there is no difference between a field point and a broadhead, when discussing lethality?

I have the same supposition.

Statistics being distorted.

What percentage of people carrying .45acp are of above average training, ability, etc

Vs

What percentage of those carrying 9mm, have similar attributes

9mm being MUCH more popular, that denominator is much greater.

.45acp being much LESS popular, especially among less trained shooters, makes that numerator higher , relatively.

Of course.  Shooting someone more than once is a waste of ammo.

So .44 Magnum it is, then

Nevermind

I always figured the reason to carry JHP ammo was to reduce chances of over penetration. Article said most of the bleeding from a GSW is internal, so a small exit wound from an FMJ doesn't seem like it would rapidly increase incapacitation speed.

IMHO, the only reason to carry a 9mm over a .45 is capacity/size ratio. I am not stupid enough to think that I will be calm if I ever had to draw and shoot, so having 2x the rounds already in the gun is a fair trade.

I don’t know anyone who carries every day, shoots at least once a week and seeks out regular firearms training who  choose a .45

In my circle of friends I know one person who occasionally carry, sometimes a .45, rarely shoots handgun and considers himself well trained based on military service ending in 2006. He don’t know what he doesn’t know. He’s a novice handgun shooter in spite of being retired military.

" if they are worth shooting once, they are worth shooting again"

I don't know how valid this argument is on the streets, but

shot for shot, of course 45ACP is more lethal than 9mm. The thing is, a typical 9mm has twice the capacity of 45ACP. Typically 15, 17 or so rounds versus 7 or 8.

You get twice as many chances and 2 shots of 9mm might be more effective than 1 with 45ACP. Looking at the totality of attributes.  Given lighter recoil, easier to score hits with 9mm.

This is why an M16 is more effective than an M14, even though 308 / 7.62 > 5.56mm.

No, .44mag is only .429" so is basically worthless. You need a .454 Casull at minimum. If you want a semi-auto, .50gi for slow and fat, .50ae for fat and fast.
If you carry a Derringer, should probably be chambered in .950jdj.

Only in faggot math.
The Science is settled.

Big chunks of metal flying through a body are more lethal when they hit certain points?

Whoda thunk it?

Birdman Weapon Systems

Big city he may also be doing autopsies for the county and smaller outlying towns.

I have learned to pop my pistol from a concealed position in am instant. I heard something moving in the woods and I instinctively drew my pistol and it was pretty fast. The gun was moving so quickly out of the holster that it actually was not fully in my hand until it lodged there in my hand while traveling back towards me from the initial force of the draw. I was impressed with myself. Clicked off the safety with trigger to the wall right smartly and expeditiously as well. Stance was low and appropriate for the win. This will do.

Perfect choice for doves and ducks.

Or your opponent which is now quickly attaining room temperature because he is dead. White as a ghost.

Speed kills.   Same with cars and bullets.  Handgun rounds go slow enough the wound Chanel is small. Bring a rifle if you want to get work done.

I have an 1892 replica, same caliber. It's my dad's favorite of all the guns I have.

I am going to call BS on this one.  

And "consensus" isn't the same thing as data.

All modern handgun rounds are about the same. Wound differences between calibers are so negligible as to be irrelevant, at least according to the people whose job it is to research and design defensive ammo.

All this to show .45aarp is gay and 9mm is king

Not so much professional as an enthusiast.  Not all cops are "gun guys".  Some are and put extra effort into it.  These are the ones likely to be carrying something in 45 acp as most departments issue 9 mm.

I have seen a CNS/head shot, from a hydraulic fitting.  The guy didn't feel a thing which was the only good thing about that.

The difference between 45 and .357 is less than a tenth of an inch.  

You can actually draw your pistol BEFORE you touch it.

You have to go "snake eyed".