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Posted: 4/4/2017 6:59:36 PM EST
[#1]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
A good sword made from a high quality steel will easily remove a head, arm, or leg. Expect to pay over $1,000 and that won't get you anything fancy. A good "Samurai" sword is not brittle. (They are differentially heat treated.) I trained under the highest ranking Grandmaster of Iai-Jutsu in the USA. Iai-Jutsu is the quick draw/quick kill art of the Samurai. Draw sword as enemy is attacking, deflect incoming blow, remove enemies head, deblood sword, resheathe sword. Object was to have your sword resheathed before your enemies head hit the ground. Under 3 seconds total. Hollywood depictions of Samurai are BS. Typical sword fight was over in 3 seconds, with one person dead. Unarmed combat would end in under 10 seconds, with one person dead.  Japanese swords bend rather than flex |
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Posted: 4/4/2017 7:02:04 PM EST
[#2]
I've read about cavalry sabers doing horrific damage. The blade geometry is similar on a Katana so why not ?
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Posted: 4/4/2017 7:02:24 PM EST
[#3]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
I disagree with almost all of that. Both Euro and japanes swords varied greatly in their size, thickness, length and use. From monster battle swords to gentle city swords for indoor parties. |
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Posted: 4/4/2017 7:02:51 PM EST
[#4]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Because everything you said was wrong. Euro swords can be just as sharp with very good steel. Have you tried Tameshigiri with both? I have. I'd prefer a euro hand and a half sword or a saber over a katana. Longer blade, better cutter, and more hand protection. I have way more experience with katanas as well but see their shortcomings. Earlier Viking and Anglo Saxon swords had little hand protection, but that probably wasn't needed based upon how they were used with a shield. |
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Posted: 4/4/2017 7:04:13 PM EST
[#5]
In the final analysis, Hollywood shows will be proven to have done much more damage than samurai swords.
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Posted: 4/4/2017 7:04:42 PM EST
[#6]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Well they might be as sharp as YOUR knives, but they aren't as sharp as mine. Most swords have a much thicker edge geometry.  Attached Fileand it has a massively thick blade. My Katana is even sharper. |
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Posted: 4/4/2017 7:06:42 PM EST
[#7]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Swords aren't as sharp as knives. Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
Have you ever cut yourself with a brand new benchmade? I'd imagine that a 3 foot knife that sharp could lop off a head pretty easy if you were skilled enough/ But I'm like you op I don't know shit about swords that's just a guess. 
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Posted: 4/4/2017 7:06:47 PM EST
[#8]
English Broadsword FTW
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Posted: 4/4/2017 7:07:02 PM EST
[#9]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Well they might be as sharp as YOUR knives, but they aren't as sharp as mine. Most swords have a much thicker edge geometry. |
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Posted: 4/4/2017 7:07:27 PM EST
[#10]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
The samurai sword is not a thick steel blade like European swords. It's lighter and has a razor sharp edge. So samurai wore armor made of bamboo and leather so as not to get cut, but it wasn't metal plates like European armor. As for chopping people, it's like a Ginsu knife times 20, it's going to leave a huge gash. But, it's not going to break a bone though like a heavy sword could. But if it hits something very solid like rock or metal, it's going to dent or break and edge is going to get dull. |
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Posted: 4/4/2017 7:09:30 PM EST
[#11]
 the secret world of the japanese swordsmith |
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Posted: 4/4/2017 7:09:50 PM EST
[#12]
The problem lies with the Jap inability to forge Valyrian steel.
It's quite simple. |
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Posted: 4/4/2017 7:10:00 PM EST
[#13]
depends on the era of the swords.
Some swords would go through a cut test (Tameshigiri) and grading. The grading would be stamped on the tang. Often the tests would be performed on live prisoners. Some swords 
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tameshigiri some swords pass multiple body cuts. Stack the bodies on top of each other and how many can you cut through? Like this sword which was graded as a 3 body test. http://nihontoart.com/shop/2-body-test-cut-kinzogan-katana/ So can you cut through bodies, and arms and legs? Sure. The early period Tachi's, nodachi's and O'dachi's were used against cavalry. The early armors helped to protect against the long straight chinese influenced blades. The curved blades made sword fighting easier from horseback. The armor has specific areas that aren't armored to allow body movement. A lot of the sword fighting techniques specifically aim at these points. Even to the point of: knock the guy down, lift up his mask and stab his neck/head. Also much of the fighting became more of a duel. Not so much of the cliche "Braveheart" or Napoleanesque type melees. But much of this depends on the era. Armors changed. Swords changed. Fighting techniques changed. Straight sword Vs. early armor techniques are different than deep curved Tachi or shallow curve katana vs armored....and un armored. So to answer your question: it depends. Also, a lot of hollywood is about the affects. As a swordsman, I may aim for your wrist before your body. There's a strategy involved that gets lost in the theatrics and gymnastics. Outside of hollywood, I'd watch a lot of the older japanese samurai films. They are more true to the capabilities and period correctness. Toshiro Mifune's Yojimbo Seven samurai samruai I: Miyamoto Mushashi by Hirohsi Inagaki samruai II: Duel at Ichijoji Temple samruai III: Duel at Ganryu Island 13 Assassins Samurai Rebellion Zatoichi sanjuro also: http://www.bfi.org.uk/news-opinion/news-bfi/lists/10-great-samurai-films http://www.ranker.com/list/samurai-cinema-movies-and-films/reference Chinese movies: Redcliff |
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Posted: 4/4/2017 7:10:44 PM EST
[#14]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
I've practiced iado, kenjitsu, and kendo. Give me a proper European saber everyday of the week |
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Posted: 4/4/2017 7:11:07 PM EST
[#15]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Because everything you said was wrong. Euro swords can be just as sharp with very good steel. Have you tried Tameshigiri with both? I have. I'd prefer a euro hand and a half sword or a saber over a katana. Longer blade, better cutter, and more hand protection. I have way more experience with katanas as well but see their shortcomings. Quote HistoryQuoted:
Because everything you said was wrong. Euro swords can be just as sharp with very good steel. Have you tried Tameshigiri with both? I have. I'd prefer a euro hand and a half sword or a saber over a katana. Longer blade, better cutter, and more hand protection. I have way more experience with katanas as well but see their shortcomings. Nonetheless, a curved blade is mechanically superior to a straight one at delivering edge blows to produce injury. And due to its hardness, the single curving edge of the katana is very good at penetrating even hard materials with straight-on strikes. Verdict: Katana. A springier blade, such as on the longsword, is able to endure fatigue and abuse over longer periods. However, a more robust blade able to resist breaking will tolerate greater sudden stress as in cutting powerfully at more resistant materials, which the katana achieves. Katanas tended to be strong essentially because their thick blades and narrow edges were of laminated structures with a differential heat treatment. Katanas typically have a very good combination of strengths due to tensile versus compressive forces from the edge material actually being longer than the spine (forcing its natural curvature). But such hardness is possible on two-edge straight blades as well. The katana will cut soft objects very well with little fatigue/strength issues, but over time it will not handle massive impacts or lateral forces as due to the same heat treatment that gives it such a strong edge (but requires a softer back). Additionally, the fact is, the sharper and the harder an edge, the easier it chips and cracks from use (i.e., suffers brittle failures). A softer edge, by contrast, will fold and dull from use (ductile failures). The katana required more rigidity for its hard-cutting design, while for its utility the longsword was more of a spring. The katana's edge leaned towards more brittleness while its spine was more prone to bending. In both weapons, cross sectional shape compensated for weaknesses while capitalizing on strengths. |
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Posted: 4/4/2017 7:11:20 PM EST
[#16]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Nice! You must have one of those fancy guided sharpening systems. [snip] 
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Posted: 4/4/2017 7:18:19 PM EST
[#17]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
The katana varied from sword maker to sword maker, but it didn't vary as much like one was an epee and another was a scimitar. Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
I disagree with almost all of that. Both Euro and japanes swords varied greatly in their size, thickness, length and use. From monster battle swords to gentle city swords for indoor parties. Some era's they were used as scimitars on horse back later they were fencing blades used against other knights/samurai on the streets or in the royal court. The Japanese have double edged and straight swords too. Always have. And of course, used against peasants to enforce the royal order. Pikes/spears and archery were the main weapons of war. Swords were secondary in large open warfare but greater symbolism all other times. Eta...this does not include straight or double edged swords 
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Posted: 4/4/2017 7:18:49 PM EST
[#18]
Not the ones you get at the flea market.
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Posted: 4/4/2017 7:19:07 PM EST
[#19]
All I need to know about swords I learned from Mr. Fisk.
 Cautionary Tales Of Swords #1 |
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Posted: 4/4/2017 7:21:55 PM EST
[#20]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
This is what John Clements says about the cutting ability of katana vs Longsword: And this: http://www.thearma.org/essays/longsword-and-katana.html#.WOQ09E11pmM Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
Because everything you said was wrong. Euro swords can be just as sharp with very good steel. Have you tried Tameshigiri with both? I have. I'd prefer a euro hand and a half sword or a saber over a katana. Longer blade, better cutter, and more hand protection. I have way more experience with katanas as well but see their shortcomings. Nonetheless, a curved blade is mechanically superior to a straight one at delivering edge blows to produce injury. And due to its hardness, the single curving edge of the katana is very good at penetrating even hard materials with straight-on strikes. Verdict: Katana. A springier blade, such as on the longsword, is able to endure fatigue and abuse over longer periods. However, a more robust blade able to resist breaking will tolerate greater sudden stress as in cutting powerfully at more resistant materials, which the katana achieves. Katanas tended to be strong essentially because their thick blades and narrow edges were of laminated structures with a differential heat treatment. Katanas typically have a very good combination of strengths due to tensile versus compressive forces from the edge material actually being longer than the spine (forcing its natural curvature). But such hardness is possible on two-edge straight blades as well. The katana will cut soft objects very well with little fatigue/strength issues, but over time it will not handle massive impacts or lateral forces as due to the same heat treatment that gives it such a strong edge (but requires a softer back). Additionally, the fact is, the sharper and the harder an edge, the easier it chips and cracks from use (i.e., suffers brittle failures). A softer edge, by contrast, will fold and dull from use (ductile failures). The katana required more rigidity for its hard-cutting design, while for its utility the longsword was more of a spring. The katana's edge leaned towards more brittleness while its spine was more prone to bending. In both weapons, cross sectional shape compensated for weaknesses while capitalizing on strengths. So give me the longer sword with more hand protection. I'm at odds to his assertion that one blade is sharper. You haven't answered my question if you have used both for cutting. |
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Posted: 4/4/2017 7:22:17 PM EST
[#21]
The Hollywood swords aren't nearly as good as Japanese swords. The Japanese swords are good for cutting through 1000 watermelons, a 500 sq. ft. bamboo grove, 100 coconuts, and slice up a wheel of cheddar cheese before it needs sharpening. Hollywood swords can't do half that. Chinese swords are made of really poor steel and can't hold an edge long enough to cut through fog.
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Posted: 4/4/2017 7:22:48 PM EST
[#22]
Quoted:
Not a sword guy and Hollywood blows things out of proportion but can samurai swords do the kind of damage they portray? Hollywood shows do a lot more damage. |
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Posted: 4/4/2017 7:24:03 PM EST
[#23]
Even real samurai did a hell of a lot more real fighting with arrows and pole arms than swords.
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Posted: 4/4/2017 7:25:40 PM EST
[#24]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Ok, but why? Did you actually use the samurai sword to cut and slice human flesh and then do the same with a European saber in order to compare them? Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
I've practiced iado, kenjitsu, and kendo. Give me a proper European saber everyday of the week obviously not
I have used them for Tameshigiri. I've also spared with them. Reach and hand protection trump the mythical Katana. I still enjoy Japanese blades fwiw |
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Posted: 4/4/2017 7:26:56 PM EST
[#25]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
you get the tip through a slot or opening in the armor. 
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Posted: 4/4/2017 7:26:56 PM EST
[#26]
I've killed wild hogs with a knife. I barely felt the resistance when stabbing and found the amount of damage pretty amazing. A sword swung with force would be devestating.
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Posted: 4/4/2017 7:27:08 PM EST
[#27]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Even real samurai did a hell of a lot more real fighting with arrows and pole arms than swords. |
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Posted: 4/4/2017 7:28:48 PM EST
[#28]
Depends on what you hit with it. Against unarmored people, pretty nasty stuff. Against an armored opponent, hard target, gun barrel, etc, not much except break or bend.
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Posted: 4/4/2017 7:32:12 PM EST
[#29]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Fail! Bayonets and machine guns did most of the killing. Keep in mind that just about all the Jap officers that had one were not trained to use it. Plus the swords used for killing in Nanking were used on noncombatants, usually with their hands bound. In the book I recall mention of a beheading contest. It's not like the Japanese were testing their swordsmanship skills against similarly armed, peer equivalent adversaries. Anything sharp-ish would have done the same thing to a helpless prisoner. |
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Posted: 4/4/2017 7:32:21 PM EST
[#30]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Swords aren't as sharp as knives. Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
Have you ever cut yourself with a brand new benchmade? I'd imagine that a 3 foot knife that sharp could lop off a head pretty easy if you were skilled enough/ But I'm like you op I don't know shit about swords that's just a guess. |
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Posted: 4/4/2017 7:33:26 PM EST
[#31]
She'll cut you up!
 ???????????  ??????????????? ??3?(??) Here's some funny cutting  ?????? ??? (Japanese Katana Failure Cutting ???????) And then the successful cutting  ????? ??? ?Success Collection of Japanese Sword Cutting? An article about tameshigiri... http://www.tameshigiri.ca/2013/11/28/an-academic-look-at-the-history-of-tameshigiri/ |
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Posted: 4/4/2017 7:33:31 PM EST
[#32]
 Which sword is best in a one-on-one duel?..... Historical fencing |
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Posted: 4/4/2017 7:34:28 PM EST
[#33]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Iron and steel plates were commonly used in Japanese armor construction. 
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Posted: 4/4/2017 7:35:51 PM EST
[#34]
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Posted: 4/4/2017 7:37:46 PM EST
[#35]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
A good sword made from a high quality steel will easily remove a head, arm, or leg. Expect to pay over $1,000 and that won't get you anything fancy. A good "Samurai" sword is not brittle. (They are differentially heat treated.) I trained under the highest ranking Grandmaster of Iai-Jutsu in the USA. Iai-Jutsu is the quick draw/quick kill art of the Samurai. Draw sword as enemy is attacking, deflect incoming blow, remove enemies head, deblood sword, resheathe sword. Object was to have your sword resheathed before your enemies head hit the ground. Under 3 seconds total. Hollywood depictions of Samurai are BS. Typical sword fight was over in 3 seconds, with one person dead. Unarmed combat would end in under 10 seconds, with one person dead. Remember, there is also iai-justu (drawing or draw/cutting skills/techniques), also with nukiuchi (fast drawing).,..,.,.,. (this is mostly about the drawing. iai is to draw.) ken-jutsu (sword (dueling) techniques) .,..,.,.,. (this is everything after the draw) battojutsu (battlefield techniques) .,..,.,.,. (beginning with sword in saya, draw and cut) biken jutsu (hidden sword techniques) There are a lot of nuances with the Japanese names above and the techniques learned. depending on the Ryuha. Recall too that battlefield techniques will differ than dueling techniques, which also differs from a samurais capacity as an enforcer with license to kill. Then throw in period armor...... Also, considering the steel type and bitterness Vs. strength..... Early period swords were brittle and often broken after battles. It wasn't until a sword maker got tired of seeing broken swords that he developed the metallurgical techniques which evolved into the differentially tempered, folded steel blades. Folding the steel helps to homogenize the steel (they got steel from heating clumps of iron rich earth). There were different methods like san mai, a 3 layer sandwhich, or the one with a hard outside wrapped around a soft inside. The idea was they want a pure metal (homogenized with folding) that has an extremely hard edge (hardness of steel increases it's brittleness). To reduce the effect of the brittleness they differentially heat treated it so that the edge remains super hard, but the spine remains soft. The soft ness of the spine is where you get toughness and resilience. It allows the blade to absorb impacts and not break. in short, hard edge, soft interior/spine. See for example: 
The dark cross sections are hard steel. The lighter colors are softer. |
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Posted: 4/4/2017 7:37:58 PM EST
[#36]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
I've read about cavalry sabers doing horrific damage. The blade geometry is similar on a Katana so why not ? Swung down from atop a charging horse pretty much any sharpened strip of metal will inflict horrific damage. Even a club will inflict horrific damage when wielded in such a manner. |
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Posted: 4/4/2017 7:40:25 PM EST
[#37]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Check out the Nanking massacre. Spelling?  
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Posted: 4/4/2017 7:42:16 PM EST
[#38]
giant pile of derp up in here tonight. i'm far from a SME, but know a bit from study and practice. some thoughts:
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Wat? A blade is a blade. You would be able to achieve the same angle and sharpness with both why would knives be sharper? Quote HistoryQuoted:
Wat? A blade is a blade. You would be able to achieve the same angle and sharpness with both why would knives be sharper? Quoted:
They were made of soft iron with a steel edge welded on. They were not tempered so they would bend and stay bent. They were no sharper than any other sword. They were not good at piercing, and so were not very good against someone with metal armor. They can be compared to a short, overweight European saber. Quoted:
Katanas are significantly heavier for the blade length than most European swords. |
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Posted: 4/4/2017 7:43:46 PM EST
[#39]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
A good sword made from a high quality steel will easily remove a head, arm, or leg. Expect to pay over $1,000 and that won't get you anything fancy. A good "Samurai" sword is not brittle. (They are differentially heat treated.) I trained under the highest ranking Grandmaster of Iai-Jutsu in the USA. Iai-Jutsu is the quick draw/quick kill art of the Samurai. Draw sword as enemy is attacking, deflect incoming blow, remove enemies head, deblood sword, resheathe sword. Object was to have your sword resheathed before your enemies head hit the ground. Under 3 seconds total. Hollywood depictions of Samurai are BS. Typical sword fight was over in 3 seconds, with one person dead. Unarmed combat would end in under 10 seconds, with one person dead. |
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Posted: 4/4/2017 7:44:26 PM EST
[#40]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Swung down from atop a charging horse pretty much any sharpened strip of metal will inflict horrific damage. Even a club will inflict horrific damage when wielded in such a manner. Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
I've read about cavalry sabers doing horrific damage. The blade geometry is similar on a Katana so why not ?  HEMA instructors fighting with the Polish saber - Lee Smith vs. Richard Marsden |
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Posted: 4/4/2017 7:44:33 PM EST
[#41]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Yup. Same with Europeans. Swords are like side arms.
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Posted: 4/4/2017 7:46:25 PM EST
[#42]
Did you know Hattori Hanzo, the legendary sword maker in Kill Bill 1, was an actual person, a famous Ninja who assisted the actual person portrayed by Lord Toranaga in the book and show Shogun to actually become a Shogun and start a dynasty?
Yep, Shogun was based on actual history and on the famous Samurai leader Tokugawa Ieyasu and the name of the actual Englishman he befriended was William Adams, the first Englishman to sail to those waters and who was befriended by the Shogun, who BTW started a dynasty that saved the world of Bushido and Samurai from outside influence for almost 300 years until the late 1800s. The Shogunate was fearful the Spanish and Portuguese would convert, enslave, and steal their gold like they did all over the rest of the world. Were it not for this one Shogun dynasty the world of the samurai and their swords probably wouldnt have lasted another generation....Little Historical snack for you to snack on. |
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Posted: 4/4/2017 7:49:10 PM EST
[#43]
I'm sure this has been posted before. 50 BMG vs Samurai sword. FWD to 1:10 for the bullet cutting slow mo.......
<iframe width="560" height="315" src="V2mIuayVKbA" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen></iframe> vid |
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Posted: 4/4/2017 7:50:02 PM EST
[#44]
Funny thread. Are you guys saying they're brittle because you've seen the SS ones break on Home Shopping Network?
Good katanas are not brittle, but they were meant as a slicing weapon (think the movie Predators fought scene) not as some broadsword. I've beat the hell out of mine with no ill effects. |
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Posted: 4/4/2017 7:50:35 PM EST
[#45]
Chirasaya, double edged 
Ken 
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Posted: 4/4/2017 7:51:51 PM EST
[#46]
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Posted: 4/4/2017 7:52:48 PM EST
[#47]
Quote History |
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Posted: 4/4/2017 7:52:57 PM EST
[#48]
U
 The TRUTH about the Ninja and Ninjutsu |
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Posted: 4/4/2017 7:53:53 PM EST
[#49]
 Failed To Load Title |
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Posted: 4/4/2017 7:55:16 PM EST
[#50]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
The samurai sword is not a thick steel blade like European swords. It's lighter and has a razor sharp edge. So samurai wore armor made of bamboo and leather so as not to get cut, but it wasn't metal plates like European armor. As for chopping people, it's like a Ginsu knife times 20, it's going to leave a huge gash. But, it's not going to break a bone though like a heavy sword could. But if it hits something very solid like rock or metal, it's going to dent or break and edge is going to get dull. |
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