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Posted: 1/12/2018 2:30:12 PM EDT
[#1]
Quote HistoryQuote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted: CMMG was supposed to come out with a muzzleloader upper several years ago, I don't think it ever went into production though  CMMG AR15 Muzzleloader |
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Posted: 1/12/2018 2:31:17 PM EDT
[#2]
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Posted: 1/12/2018 2:31:43 PM EDT
[#3]
has a rifled barrel of less than sixteen inches, or an overall length of less than twenty six inches. The total length is measured in the extended position.
Is it the or instead of reading and ? |
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Posted: 1/12/2018 2:37:38 PM EDT
[#4]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
has a rifled barrel of less than sixteen inches, or an overall length of less than twenty six inches. The total length is measured in the extended position. Is it the or instead of reading and ? They're just playing semantics like Mossberg did with the Shockwave. They have to keep it a secret and make it seem like there's more to it until SHOT because 87 other companies would roll out their own stock+11.5" barrel non-SBR "firearms" at SHOT if they found out that there really isn't more to it. |
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Posted: 1/12/2018 2:37:49 PM EDT
[#5]
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Man, you sure take your Interneting seriously. Quote HistoryQuoted:
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What's that thingy in between the selector and the rear qd cup? Almost looks like it rides in a groove in that upper. Maybe something off of the bcg that gets tripped by your thumb? Just a smudge of dirt? Jesus H Christ the derp in here is rampant. Don't take it personally, 87% of the people posting in here should post less and read more. |
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Posted: 1/12/2018 2:44:55 PM EDT
[#6]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Can you imagine the firepower if you slapped a D60 in that mag well, grabbed your trusty ramming stick and shoved a ball down the muzzle, then started lighting things off with the inverted trigger break?! The death you could deal is beyond comprehension! Don't take it personally, 87% of the people posting in here should post less and read more. That smudge/shadow made me think that maybe they had a trip lever in there a la an AR-180/Sig MCX. |
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Posted: 1/12/2018 2:52:48 PM EDT
[#7]
Quote HistoryI might have to send that to Jay. LOL!!! |
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Posted: 1/12/2018 2:53:24 PM EDT
[#8]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
That's my opinion and has been from the start. They're just playing semantics like Mossberg did with the Shockwave. They have to keep it a secret and make it seem like there's more to it until SHOT because 87 other companies would roll out their own stock+11.5" barrel non-SBR "firearms" at SHOT if they found out that there really isn't more to it. Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
has a rifled barrel of less than sixteen inches, or an overall length of less than twenty six inches. The total length is measured in the extended position. Is it the or instead of reading and ? They're just playing semantics like Mossberg did with the Shockwave. They have to keep it a secret and make it seem like there's more to it until SHOT because 87 other companies would roll out their own stock+11.5" barrel non-SBR "firearms" at SHOT if they found out that there really isn't more to it. |
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Posted: 1/12/2018 2:58:12 PM EDT
[#9]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
I don't get it. It says "or". Meaning that when either condition is met, it satisfies the definition of a rifle. That's what "or" means. It doesn't say "and". And the definition for an SBS is: "barrel or barrels of less than 18 inches in length or is less than 26 inches in overall length” Yet the Mossberg Shockwave has a 14 inch barrel. This is just the rifle version of the Shockwave. |
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Posted: 1/12/2018 3:00:45 PM EDT
[#10]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
That's the definition for an SBR, not a rifle. And the definition for an SBS is: "barrel or barrels of less than 18 inches in length or is less than 26 inches in overall length" Yet the Mossberg Shockwave has a 14 inch barrel. This is just the rifle version of the Shockwave. |
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Posted: 1/12/2018 3:01:05 PM EDT
[#11]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
That's the definition for an SBR, not a rifle. And the definition for an SBS is: "barrel or barrels of less than 18 inches in length or is less than 26 inches in overall length" Yet the Mossberg Shockwave has a 14 inch barrel. This is just the rifle version of the Shockwave. Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
I don't get it. It says "or". Meaning that when either condition is met, it satisfies the definition of a rifle. That's what "or" means. It doesn't say "and". And the definition for an SBS is: "barrel or barrels of less than 18 inches in length or is less than 26 inches in overall length" Yet the Mossberg Shockwave has a 14 inch barrel. This is just the rifle version of the Shockwave. |
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Posted: 1/12/2018 3:02:03 PM EDT
[#12]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
OK, am starting to think this might be more than a troll job, fingers crossed. |
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Posted: 1/12/2018 3:04:42 PM EDT
[#13]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Lol. No worries. That smudge/shadow made me think that maybe they had a trip lever in there a la an AR-180/Sig MCX. Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted: Can you imagine the firepower if you slapped a D60 in that mag well, grabbed your trusty ramming stick and shoved a ball down the muzzle, then started lighting things off with the inverted trigger break?! The death you could deal is beyond comprehension! Don't take it personally, 87% of the people posting in here should post less and read more. That smudge/shadow made me think that maybe they had a trip lever in there a la an AR-180/Sig MCX. 
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Posted: 1/12/2018 3:08:28 PM EDT
[#14]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
You win the internet! I might have to send that to Jay. LOL!!! |
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Posted: 1/12/2018 3:11:10 PM EDT
[#15]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
That's my opinion and has been from the start. They're just playing semantics like Mossberg did with the Shockwave. They have to keep it a secret and make it seem like there's more to it until SHOT because 87 other companies would roll out their own stock+11.5" barrel non-SBR "firearms" at SHOT if they found out that there really isn't more to it. Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
has a rifled barrel of less than sixteen inches, or an overall length of less than twenty six inches. The total length is measured in the extended position. Is it the or instead of reading and ? They're just playing semantics like Mossberg did with the Shockwave. They have to keep it a secret and make it seem like there's more to it until SHOT because 87 other companies would roll out their own stock+11.5" barrel non-SBR "firearms" at SHOT if they found out that there really isn't more to it. |
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Posted: 1/12/2018 3:14:42 PM EDT
[#16]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
I don't think it's a barrel thing. If you go non rifled you end up in SBS territory. It's got a stock so it should be a SBR w/ a 11.5" barrel regardless of the OAL. With the OAL >= 26 and a 11.5" barrel it would seem they're playing games w/ the 1 shot per pull of the trigger, and with it being Franklin Armory, I'm betting the people saying it's a binary trigger, or a trigger that takes a pull/release are right. Quote HistoryQuoted:
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has a rifled barrel of less than sixteen inches, or an overall length of less than twenty six inches. The total length is measured in the extended position. Is it the or instead of reading and ? They're just playing semantics like Mossberg did with the Shockwave. They have to keep it a secret and make it seem like there's more to it until SHOT because 87 other companies would roll out their own stock+11.5" barrel non-SBR "firearms" at SHOT if they found out that there really isn't more to it. |
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Posted: 1/12/2018 3:28:11 PM EDT
[#17]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
The shockwave isn't a shotgun because it can't be fired from the shoulder 
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Posted: 1/12/2018 3:32:44 PM EDT
[#18]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
ATF says I can fire it from the shoulder like this. Still not an SBS. https://gun.deals/sites/default/files/940b338feacaa59bb2764bc105d225df.jpg Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
The shockwave isn't a shotgun because it can't be fired from the shoulder https://gun.deals/sites/default/files/940b338feacaa59bb2764bc105d225df.jpg |
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Posted: 1/12/2018 3:33:10 PM EDT
[#19]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
ATF says I can fire it from the shoulder like this. Still not an SBS. https://gun.deals/sites/default/files/940b338feacaa59bb2764bc105d225df.jpg |
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Posted: 1/12/2018 3:39:26 PM EDT
[#20]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
this is well beyond a kerning pair distance https://www.AR15.Com/media/mediaFiles/3097/3E737CA7-AC62-4CD7-B6DD-8C9B49BBF867-418132.JPG notice the leading edge of the capital T is in direct alignment with the trailing edge of the A like every other letter is. the font use just makes if look weird. |
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Posted: 1/12/2018 3:43:44 PM EDT
[#21]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
ATF says I can fire it from the shoulder like this. Still not an SBS. https://gun.deals/sites/default/files/940b338feacaa59bb2764bc105d225df.jpg The Shockwave is in no way comparable to this because of that single detail. It has to have something to do with the FCG. Like I said a few pages back, otherwise, pinned + welded 14.5" barrels wouldn't be a thing. |
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Posted: 1/12/2018 3:45:33 PM EDT
[#22]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
that is simply the font used. nothing "special". notice the leading edge of the capital T is in direct alignment with the trailing edge of the A like every other letter is. the font use just makes if look weird. 
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Posted: 1/12/2018 3:46:55 PM EDT
[#23]
It has a trigger that fires on the release, like an old skeet/ trap shotgun. The rifle definition says single "pull" of the trigger, rather than single "function" of the trigger, so it's not a rifle, even with a rifled barrel.
Sorry if someone already pointed this out, but I'm not reading the entire thread. |
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Posted: 1/12/2018 3:50:33 PM EDT
[#24]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
But that is a brace, not a stock. An 11.5" AR "firearm" with stock is less concealable and no more functional than a 7" AR pistol with Sig brace, and the whole reason for the law is concealability, right? |
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Posted: 1/12/2018 3:51:59 PM EDT
[#25]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
It has a trigger that fires on the release, like an old skeet/ trap shotgun. The rifle definition says single "pull" of the trigger, rather than single "function" of the trigger, so it's not a rifle, even with a rifled barrel. Sorry if someone already pointed this out, but I'm not reading the entire thread. |
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Posted: 1/12/2018 3:52:31 PM EDT
[#26]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Point is, that's a freaking 8.5" shotgun that can be fired from the shoulder, no tax stamp required, and ATF is cool with it. Something previously thought to be unpossible. ATF has been bowing to semantics and loopholes like crazy the past few years, so maybe whoever wrote this determination letter was just like F it, it's over 26" OAL so it's fine. An 11.5" AR "firearm" with stock is less concealable and no more functional than a 7" AR pistol with Sig brace, and the whole reason for the law is concealability, right? |
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Posted: 1/12/2018 3:56:00 PM EDT
[#27]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
the background image is martin luther https://www.AR15.Com/media/mediaFiles/3097/89F2944D-4F26-43E7-95B6-0E0E8353012B-418152.JPG https://www.AR15.Com/media/mediaFiles/3097/924FAB4F-D3C0-49B4-B898-7DAE38AEAD73-418154.JPG |
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Posted: 1/12/2018 4:03:15 PM EDT
[#28]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
The thing is, they're claiming "new technology". Quote HistoryQuoted:
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has a rifled barrel of less than sixteen inches, or an overall length of less than twenty six inches. The total length is measured in the extended position. Is it the or instead of reading and ? They're just playing semantics like Mossberg did with the Shockwave. They have to keep it a secret and make it seem like there's more to it until SHOT because 87 other companies would roll out their own stock+11.5" barrel non-SBR "firearms" at SHOT if they found out that there really isn't more to it. |
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Posted: 1/12/2018 4:12:39 PM EDT
[#29]
Quote HistoryQuoted: There's a little more to it than that. I live in Illinois but own property in Missouri where my range is. Wouldn't want to have to write a letter every time I went to the range. Also not everybody has a CLEO that will sign off on a SBR in their state laws even allow for it. |
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Posted: 1/12/2018 4:22:27 PM EDT
[#30]
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Posted: 1/12/2018 5:28:22 PM EDT
[#31]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Last inch of barrel is smooth bore? 
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Posted: 1/12/2018 5:40:49 PM EDT
[#32]
While we're all distracted by this puzzle, the deadline for comments on the federal ruling against bumpstocks and binary triggers is looming. Go make some comments.
https://www.federalregister.gov/documents/2017/12/26/2017-27898/application-of-the-definition-of-machinegun-to-bump-fire-stocks-and-other-similar-devices#open-comment |
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Posted: 1/12/2018 5:56:16 PM EDT
[#33]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
There is no odd letter break distance. The right lower side of the A matches up vertically with the left upper side of the T. Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
https://www.AR15.Com/media/mediaFiles/3097/AA33AA38-9F3B-4FFD-A7E6-F897E831CEA4-417967.JPG the odd letter break distance between the A and the T is intentional <a href="https://trademarks.justia.com/872/17/reformation-87217402.html">https://trademarks.justia.com/872/17/reformation-87217402.html </a> https://www.AR15.Com/media/mediaFiles/3097/55887134-C5E2-4C5F-A8A5-4BDC08F8D1F5-417969.JPG https://www.AR15.Com/media/mediaFiles/3097/DBDD57C6-F273-47DF-A613-47BB459F78EA-417970.JPG
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Posted: 1/12/2018 5:59:08 PM EDT
[#34]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
And they misspelled "redefining" in the last pic. Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
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https://www.AR15.Com/media/mediaFiles/3097/AA33AA38-9F3B-4FFD-A7E6-F897E831CEA4-417967.JPG the odd letter break distance between the A and the T is intentional <a href="https://trademarks.justia.com/872/17/reformation-87217402.html">https://trademarks.justia.com/872/17/reformation-87217402.html </a> https://www.AR15.Com/media/mediaFiles/3097/55887134-C5E2-4C5F-A8A5-4BDC08F8D1F5-417969.JPG https://www.AR15.Com/media/mediaFiles/3097/DBDD57C6-F273-47DF-A613-47BB459F78EA-417970.JPG  or... a typo
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Posted: 1/12/2018 6:15:24 PM EDT
[#35]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
It MuST bE a cLuE! or... a typo Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:
https://www.AR15.Com/media/mediaFiles/3097/AA33AA38-9F3B-4FFD-A7E6-F897E831CEA4-417967.JPG the odd letter break distance between the A and the T is intentional <a href="https://trademarks.justia.com/872/17/reformation-87217402.html">https://trademarks.justia.com/872/17/reformation-87217402.html </a> https://www.AR15.Com/media/mediaFiles/3097/55887134-C5E2-4C5F-A8A5-4BDC08F8D1F5-417969.JPG https://www.AR15.Com/media/mediaFiles/3097/DBDD57C6-F273-47DF-A613-47BB459F78EA-417970.JPG or... a typo  Attached File
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Posted: 1/12/2018 6:42:13 PM EDT
[#36]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
"NRS technology?" = Not Requiring Stamp ??  N - Fuck R - You S - NFA |
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Posted: 1/12/2018 6:52:58 PM EDT
[#37]
Quoted:
That's my opinion and has been from the start. They're just playing semantics like Mossberg did with the Shockwave. They have to keep it a secret and make it seem like there's more to it until SHOT because 87 other companies would roll out their own stock+11.5" barrel non-SBR "firearms" at SHOT if they found out that there really isn't more to it. (8) The term “short-barreled rifle” means a rifle having one or more barrels less than sixteen inches in length and any weapon made from a rifle (whether by alteration, modification, or otherwise) if such weapon, as modified, has an overall length of less than twenty-six inches. Edit: thinking about it with my lawyer hat on, they may have used the “and” to their advantage by saying that both preconditions (barrel and pal) must be met. |
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Posted: 1/12/2018 6:58:35 PM EDT
[#38]
Quote HistoryQuoted: I posted the text of the statute earlier. You cannot play the semantics game with a rifle. The statutory definition is as follows: (8) The term “short-barreled rifle” means a rifle having one or more barrels less than sixteen inches in length and any weapon made from a rifle (whether by alteration, modification, or otherwise) if such weapon, as modified, has an overall length of less than twenty-six inches. Edit: thinking about it with my lawyer hat on, they may have used the “and” to their advantage by saying that both preconditions (barrel and pal) must be met. |
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Posted: 1/12/2018 7:00:31 PM EDT
[#39]
Guys, guys ,guys. Please tell me how "new technology" is playing with semantics.
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Posted: 1/12/2018 7:04:54 PM EDT
[#40]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Guys, guys ,guys. Please tell me how "new technology" is playing with semantics. |
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Posted: 1/12/2018 7:05:36 PM EDT
[#41]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
I posted the text of the statute earlier. You cannot play the semantics game with a rifle. The statutory definition is as follows: (8) The term "short-barreled rifle" means a rifle having one or more barrels less than sixteen inches in length and any weapon made from a rifle (whether by alteration, modification, or otherwise) if such weapon, as modified, has an overall length of less than twenty-six inches. Edit: thinking about it with my lawyer hat on, they may have used the "and" to their advantage by saying that both preconditions (barrel and pal) must be met. Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
That's my opinion and has been from the start. They're just playing semantics like Mossberg did with the Shockwave. They have to keep it a secret and make it seem like there's more to it until SHOT because 87 other companies would roll out their own stock+11.5" barrel non-SBR "firearms" at SHOT if they found out that there really isn't more to it. (8) The term "short-barreled rifle" means a rifle having one or more barrels less than sixteen inches in length and any weapon made from a rifle (whether by alteration, modification, or otherwise) if such weapon, as modified, has an overall length of less than twenty-six inches. Edit: thinking about it with my lawyer hat on, they may have used the "and" to their advantage by saying that both preconditions (barrel and pal) must be met. |
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Posted: 1/12/2018 7:07:06 PM EDT
[#42]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
I'm sure Mossberg would tell you the Shockwave is "new technology." And I'm sure even Remington would try to sell you on their TAC-14 "new technology." The whole thing is "new technology" because it's neva bin dun befo. Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
Guys, guys ,guys. Please tell me how "new technology" is playing with semantics. |
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Posted: 1/12/2018 7:15:55 PM EDT
[#43]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
That would appear to be a hole. "And" allows for a rifle of at least 26" OAL regardless of barrel length, according to (8). They should have used "or". Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted: I posted the text of the statute earlier. You cannot play the semantics game with a rifle. The statutory definition is as follows: (8) The term "short-barreled rifle" means a rifle having one or more barrels less than sixteen inches in length and any weapon made from a rifle (whether by alteration, modification, or otherwise) if such weapon, as modified, has an overall length of less than twenty-six inches. Edit: thinking about it with my lawyer hat on, they may have used the "and" to their advantage by saying that both preconditions (barrel and pal) must be met. The definition is describing this and this not this or this. In the first example ANY rifle with a barrel or barrels less than 16" meets the definition. In the second example any weapon made from a rifle meets the definition only if it is not shoulder fired (that would be rifle so it must have a 16" or greater barrel) and in less than 26" in overall length. This would be arguable that you can take a rifle and cut off the stock, or put a pistol grip on it and cut the barrel to less than 16" provided it remains 26" or greater in OAL it would not be a NFA firearm. |
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Posted: 1/12/2018 7:30:39 PM EDT
[#44]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
"And" in this usage means the both the firearms would meet the definition. "Or" would mean only one "or" the other but not both. The definition is describing this and this not this or this. |
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Posted: 1/12/2018 8:43:25 PM EDT
[#45]
The ad clearly says it is not a rifle so it's not going to be some loophole regarding the language of overall length for rifles.
I don't think that many prospective AR buyers would be that interested in a smoothbore or something that uses oddball ammunition. The only way this thing sells from a marketing perspective is if it is more or less a perfectly normal AR. Otherwise people are going to use a brace, or pay $200. Maybe it's an oddball trigger setup, but it can't be too much different from a normal trigger or again people won't buy it. My guess is it's a completely normal AR in every way, and they have simply discovered a manufacturing process loophole, kind of like importers do with 922r and AKs - maybe it starts life as one kind of firearm, then is converted to another, and through the right specific process it is simply a "firearm" and not subject to SBR rules. |
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Posted: 1/12/2018 8:52:23 PM EDT
[#46]
I hope whatever they have invented, discovered, whatever, is applicable to guns I already own without coughing up another $2k or more for theirs/
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Posted: 1/12/2018 9:05:37 PM EDT
[#47]
Barrel extension isn't rifled and is the "barrel" while what we think of as the barrel is actually considered a "muzzle device".
 Attached File |
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Posted: 1/12/2018 9:09:07 PM EDT
[#48]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
I hope whatever they have invented, discovered, whatever, is applicable to guns I already own without coughing up another $2k or more for theirs/ |
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Posted: 1/12/2018 9:38:27 PM EDT
[#49]
They are damn sure getting a shit ton of publicity.
It better be something cool or they will never hear the end of it. |
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Posted: 1/12/2018 10:14:44 PM EDT
[#50]
Quote HistoryQuoted: I posted the text of the statute earlier. You cannot play the semantics game with a rifle. The statutory definition is as follows: (8) The term “short-barreled rifle” means a rifle having one or more barrels less than sixteen inches in length and any weapon made from a rifle (whether by alteration, modification, or otherwise) if such weapon, as modified, has an overall length of less than twenty-six inches. Edit: thinking about it with my lawyer hat on, they may have used the “and” to their advantage by saying that both preconditions (barrel and pal) must be met. |
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