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Posted: 10/21/2023 4:56:28 PM EDT
[#1]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Report it stolen and fuck them up This |
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Posted: 10/21/2023 5:00:22 PM EDT
[#2]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Still haven't gotten my HAC-7 rifle back from Halloway Arms Company...so don't feel bad... |
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Posted: 10/21/2023 5:02:53 PM EDT
[#3]
Quote HistoryQuoted: I think a key point is, do you know both the serial numbers of the receivers involved? I do have both serial numbers along with the work order form. I am currently out of state for work and won’t be returning till December. I only just found out this week that they had gone out of business, I’d been contacting their work number trying to get in contact to find out when I could pick it up. |
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Posted: 10/21/2023 5:04:39 PM EDT
[#4]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Not if he reports the gun as stolen and has it entered in NCIC. That would constitute a felony. Quote HistoryQuoted: Not if he reports the gun as stolen and has it entered in NCIC. That would constitute a felony. As would filing a false police report for fucks sake. The OP's firearm, believe it or not, is in the lawful possession of the FFL who currently possesses it. OP - have an attorney send the gun shop owner a letter demanding your property be returned or civil and/or criminal litigation will be pursued. That should get his attention. If not, pull the trigger and get your property back. Well.........if OP follows your first nugget of derp he'll be a felon. Meaning he won't be able to take possession of the firearm is his dealer does decide to return it. Stop giving stupid advice is the best advice I can give you. |
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Posted: 10/21/2023 5:08:08 PM EDT
[#5]
Quote HistoryQuoted: It’s not a false report if the owner is depriving him of his property. Yes it is. I'm an FFL, meaning I can lawfully deprive you of something you own as long as I want. You aren't getting your gun until you fillout the Form 4473 and pass NICS. For gunsmithing, you pay me before I return the firearm. Still holding to the concept it's theft? 
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Posted: 10/21/2023 5:14:29 PM EDT
[#6]
Quote HistoryQuoted: I do have both serial numbers along with the work order form. I am currently out of state for work and won’t be returning till December. I only just found out this week that they had gone out of business, I’d been contacting their work number trying to get in contact to find out when I could pick it up. Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: I think a key point is, do you know both the serial numbers of the receivers involved? I do have both serial numbers along with the work order form. I am currently out of state for work and won’t be returning till December. I only just found out this week that they had gone out of business, I’d been contacting their work number trying to get in contact to find out when I could pick it up. They're blowing you off. This won't improve with time. December, they and your stuff, may be gone. As in, it would cost you more in investigator and legal fees to recover than the property is worth. Contacting the ATF, and/or contacting a local-to-them consumer protection/commercial litigator, sound like good next steps. Send a certified mail letter to business, politely asking for your property to be returned to you. Document all of this, which it sounds like you're doing. |
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Posted: 10/21/2023 5:32:07 PM EDT
[#7]
What about if your waiting on a mg? They can just shut the doors and your out 30k?
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Posted: 10/21/2023 5:33:16 PM EDT
[#8]
Quoted: So here’s a moral dilemma for the group. A local gun shop of mine recently went out of business. They’ve had a M1 Garand of mine that they were swapping the receiver on. They’ve definitely been taking their time on it, however last communication the swap had been completed. However the business is now out of business and seems to be refusing communication. I know we prefer not to involve the man in our lives, but at what point do I get law enforcement and or the FATF involved? Did you went there to pick it up? |
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Posted: 10/21/2023 5:56:46 PM EDT
[#9]
Do a search and find his wife or girlfriend mother etc.
https://www.fastpeoplesearch.com |
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Posted: 10/21/2023 6:06:42 PM EDT
[#10]
Damn, how hard is it for these FFLs who are going out of business to contact the people whose stuff they have? Seems like they should have worked on that before closing doors.
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Posted: 10/21/2023 6:08:44 PM EDT
[#11]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Not if he reports the gun as stolen and has it entered in NCIC. That would constitute a felony. OP - have an attorney send the gun shop owner a letter demanding your property be returned or civil and/or criminal litigation will be pursued. That should get his attention. If not, pull the trigger and get your property back. Lying to get something entered into NCIC when it’s actually a civil issue is probably a pretty bad idea. OP, listen to the several cops and FFLs who are giving you advice rather than the GD “tHaT’s tHeFt!!!?!?” crowd. It’s super shitty and you deserve your gun back, but it’s not a theft case. |
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Posted: 10/21/2023 6:10:25 PM EDT
[#12]
Quote HistoryQuoted: It’s not a false report if the owner is depriving him of his property. Nobody that’s not an idiot is taking that report. |
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Posted: 10/21/2023 6:14:43 PM EDT
[#13]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Yes it is. I'm an FFL, meaning I can lawfully deprive you of something you own as long as I want. You aren't getting your gun until you fillout the Form 4473 and pass NICS. For gunsmithing, you pay me before I return the firearm. Still holding to the concept it's theft? Just because you are an ffl does not mean you have the legal right to deprive someone of their personal possessions. If the gun was already owned by them, they do not have to fill out another 4473 to take possession after work was done. You also can not keep possession of a firearm that someone else has paid for if you choose not to do buisness with them. You must either transfer it to another ffl or return it to the merchant that sent it to you. That firearm does not belong to you.. You can also not keep a firearm if you are a gunsmith until it is abandoned and you have followed the law and actually sent out stratified letters in trying to reclaim the money for the service you provided. There is also a certain time limit that must pass before it is considered abandoned before such actions can be taken. Op is clearly not in any of these categories. |
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Posted: 10/21/2023 6:28:26 PM EDT
[#14]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Just because you are an ffl does not mean you have the legal right to deprive someone of their personal possessions. If the gun was already owned by them, they do not have to fill out another 4473 to take possession after work was done. You also can not keep possession of a firearm that someone else has paid for if you choose not to do buisness with them. You must either transfer it to another ffl or return it to the merchant that sent it to you. That firearm does not belong to you.. You can also not keep a firearm if you are a gunsmith until it is abandoned and you have followed the law and actually sent out stratified letters in trying to reclaim the money for the service you provided. There is also a certain time limit that must pass before it is considered abandoned before such actions can be taken. Op is clearly not in any of these categories. This does not apply in this situation. If the gunsmith replaced the receiver, it is now a different firearm serial number. In order for the customer to receive the firearm back from the gunsmith, he will need to complete a Form 4473 and pass the background check as if he were purchasing a brand new firearm from any gun shop. |
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Posted: 10/21/2023 6:31:49 PM EDT
[#15]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Yes it is. I'm an FFL, meaning I can lawfully deprive you of something you own as long as I want. You aren't getting your gun until you fillout the Form 4473 and pass NICS. For gunsmithing, you pay me before I return the firearm. Still holding to the concept it's theft? You made a deal to do work for me and give be back my shit. I'm old, hurt a lot and give zero fucks. I'll COC your fucking everything if you think you are going to fuck me. Still holding onto the concept I'm going to be the bigger loser here? |
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Posted: 10/21/2023 6:33:41 PM EDT
[#16]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Yes it is. I'm an FFL, meaning I can lawfully deprive you of something you own as long as I want. You aren't getting your gun until you fillout the Form 4473 and pass NICS. For gunsmithing, you pay me before I return the firearm. Still holding to the concept it's theft?  I feel sorry for your customers. |
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Posted: 10/21/2023 6:37:48 PM EDT
[#17]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Lying to get something entered into NCIC when it’s actually a civil issue is probably a pretty bad idea. OP, listen to the several cops and FFLs who are giving you advice rather than the GD “tHaT’s tHeFt!!!?!?” crowd. It’s super shitty and you deserve your gun back, but it’s not a theft case. Theft by Conversion, its what Hertz hits you with when you don't return the vehicle they willingly handed to you. |
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Posted: 10/21/2023 6:39:40 PM EDT
[#18]
Quote HistoryQuoted: This does not apply in this situation. If the gunsmith replaced the receiver, it is now a different firearm serial number. In order for the customer to receive the firearm back, he will need to complete a Form 4473 and pass the background check as if he were purchasing a brand new firearm from any gun shop. Not if the receiver was supplied by the op. But let's say it wasn't then yes op has to fill out a new 4473. Even if the shop paid for the receiver, the only part of it that belongs to the shop is the receiver. They can not confiscate the rest of the parts because they want to. |
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Posted: 10/21/2023 6:42:59 PM EDT
[#19]
Quote HistoryQuoted: What about if you’re waiting on a mg? They can just shut the doors and your out 30k? I’ve heard a few times over the years (including once on page 1 of this thread) that when an MG is involved, a call to the ATF will get that sorted out satisfactorily with a quickness. |
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Posted: 10/21/2023 6:46:24 PM EDT
[#20]
You may get it back eventually.
Local LGS closed up yrs back and ran off with everyone's consignment guns. Since in these cases like Gunsmiths you are technically turning over ownership so it is a civil matter to get your gun back not law enforcement/ ATF. Calling local Sheriff or local ATF office may put some pressure on FFL / Smith to return it. |
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Posted: 10/21/2023 6:48:26 PM EDT
[#21]
Quote HistoryQuoted: What about if your waiting on a mg? They can just shut the doors and your out 30k? Sounds like a good racket if he has a enough $$ worth of other people's stuff on hand when he closes shop. |
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Posted: 10/21/2023 7:01:51 PM EDT
[#22]
I supplied the complete rifle and the replacement receiver. The original rifle had a receiver that had been re-welded together sometime in the past. Research on such receivers indicated it’s either completely safe or will blow up and wipe out a small village. I figured it would be safer to get a complete receiver and swap them out.
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Posted: 10/21/2023 7:05:39 PM EDT
[#23]
Quoted: So here’s a moral dilemma for the group. A local gun shop of mine recently went out of business. They’ve had a M1 Garand of mine that they were swapping the receiver on. They’ve definitely been taking their time on it, however last communication the swap had been completed. However the business is now out of business and seems to be refusing communication. I know we prefer not to involve the man in our lives, but at what point do I get law enforcement and or the FATF involved? SEAL Team 8, weapon recovery squad, is what you seek. They’ll go in there and kick ass as needed and bring your M1 home. |
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Posted: 10/21/2023 7:05:40 PM EDT
[#24]
Quote HistoryQuoted: This does not apply in this situation. If the gunsmith replaced the receiver, it is now a different firearm serial number. In order for the customer to receive the firearm back from the gunsmith, he will need to complete a Form 4473 and pass the background check as if he were purchasing a brand new firearm from any gun shop. Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: Just because you are an ffl does not mean you have the legal right to deprive someone of their personal possessions. If the gun was already owned by them, they do not have to fill out another 4473 to take possession after work was done. You also can not keep possession of a firearm that someone else has paid for if you choose not to do buisness with them. You must either transfer it to another ffl or return it to the merchant that sent it to you. That firearm does not belong to you.. You can also not keep a firearm if you are a gunsmith until it is abandoned and you have followed the law and actually sent out stratified letters in trying to reclaim the money for the service you provided. There is also a certain time limit that must pass before it is considered abandoned before such actions can be taken. Op is clearly not in any of these categories. This does not apply in this situation. If the gunsmith replaced the receiver, it is now a different firearm serial number. In order for the customer to receive the firearm back from the gunsmith, he will need to complete a Form 4473 and pass the background check as if he were purchasing a brand new firearm from any gun shop. I've had plenty of firearms replaced under warranty by manufacturers that shipped directly to my door. No new 4473, no FFL and no NICS. Signed for it via FedEx Express and opened the box with my new serial number pistol/rifle. |
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Posted: 10/21/2023 7:07:10 PM EDT
[#25]
Quote HistoryQuoted: I supplied the complete rifle and the replacement receiver. The original rifle had a receiver that had been re-welded together sometime in the past. Research on such receivers indicated it’s either completely safe or will blow up and wipe out a small village. I figured it would be safer to get a complete receiver and swap them out. As I suspected and this is why a 4473 is not needed. This is why op would owe nothing but what the shop quoted for the work done and they can not confiscate the property. So to the ffl that thinks he could deprive the owner of their property, they are duly mistaken and can be charged with theft by conversion.. |
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Posted: 10/21/2023 7:10:26 PM EDT
[#26]
Quote HistoryQuoted: If the gun store ghosts you and keeps your firearm, the only recourse you have is via civil suit. However, if the business is an LLC you really don't even have that. If you know the llc’s principal, you could sue the private person for unjust enrichment due to keeping your property after dissolution of the llc. |
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Posted: 10/21/2023 7:11:27 PM EDT
[#27]
That is a concern of mine regarding the purchase of a suppressor at a local gun shop, and then waiting so long for my stamp.
What if the shop closes before my stamp arrives? Maybe I'm over worrying it, but shit happens---huh, OP? |
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Posted: 10/21/2023 7:24:19 PM EDT
[#28]
Consult a lawyer, OP. Please stop relying on GD's amateur ambulance chasers to help you solve a legal problem.
Outside of "consult a lawyer," the only good advice I've heard in this thread is "knock on the shop owner's door and ask for your M1 back" and maybe "call the ATF." |
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Posted: 10/21/2023 7:57:24 PM EDT
[#29]
The amount of derp in this thread is incredible.
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Posted: 10/21/2023 8:23:27 PM EDT
[#30]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Theft by Conversion, its what Hertz hits you with when you don't return the vehicle they willingly handed to you. Statutes vary quite a bit by state. But no one is putting OPs gun into NCIC and prosecuting it. But please, tell me more about something I’ve actually done for a living. I’m sure you’ve investigated and prosecuted a ton of theft cases. |
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Posted: 10/21/2023 8:32:23 PM EDT
[#31]
Before you do anything brash.....
 Simpsons clip Police Cant Help You |
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Posted: 10/22/2023 1:32:30 AM EDT
[#32]
Quote HistoryQuoted: You made a deal to do work for me and give be back my shit. I'm old, hurt a lot and give zero fucks. I'll COC your fucking everything if you think you are going to fuck me. Still holding onto the concept I'm going to be the bigger loser here? LOL |
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Posted: 10/22/2023 4:40:43 AM EDT
[#33]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Lol, get your husband to go to the owner's house. 20 years here and you're saying that lame shit? |
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Posted: 10/22/2023 4:52:01 AM EDT
[#34]
Maybe they went out of business because customers failed to pick up and pay for their work in a timely manner?
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Posted: 10/22/2023 5:37:06 AM EDT
[#35]
A lot of retardation in this thread about "theft" vs "conversion." Who gives a fuck what the difference is, from a moral standpoint the OP's gun is as good as stolen. It's semantics.
Theft can be both a criminal and civil issue. Conversion can be both a criminal and civil issue. Stop being autistic. Acktchually.jpeg |
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Posted: 10/22/2023 5:39:18 AM EDT
[#36]
You need to find out why the business went away. Maybe it was just one guy that ran it and he died?
You might as well post up the shop and maybe a local arfcommer can see or find out more for you. |
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Posted: 10/22/2023 5:43:41 AM EDT
[#37]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Lol, get your husband to go to the owner's house. 
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Posted: 10/22/2023 5:44:12 AM EDT
[#38]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Literally, no it hasn't.  "Stolen" means theft, which is a criminal act. OP handed the business the firearm. What occurred is likely conversion. Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: The gun has been literally stolen. How is only a civil matter? Literally, no it hasn't. "Stolen" means theft, which is a criminal act. OP handed the business the firearm. What occurred is likely conversion. 
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Posted: 10/22/2023 5:48:44 AM EDT
[#39]
Quote HistoryQuoted: 20 years here and you're saying that lame shit? Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: Lol, get your husband to go to the owner's house. 20 years here and you're saying that lame shit? 20 years here and it still makes me laugh. |
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Posted: 10/22/2023 8:48:43 AM EDT
[#40]
Quote HistoryQuoted: 20 years here and you're saying that lame shit? What was your advice numnuts. |
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Posted: 10/22/2023 8:53:38 AM EDT
[#41]
In Minecraft, you could borrow the former business owners wheels/tires and leave a nice note on where they can be exchanged for your stolen rifle.
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Posted: 10/22/2023 9:21:30 AM EDT
[#42]
Ask
Tell Make HAM |
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Posted: 10/22/2023 9:45:00 AM EDT
[#43]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Yes it is. I'm an FFL, meaning I can lawfully deprive you of something you own as long as I want. You aren't getting your gun until you fillout the Form 4473 and pass NICS. For gunsmithing, you pay me before I return the firearm. Still holding to the concept it's theft? Yes. That's morally theft. |
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Posted: 10/22/2023 9:55:40 AM EDT
[#44]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Yes it is. I'm an FFL, meaning I can lawfully deprive you of something you own as long as I want. You aren't getting your gun until you fillout the Form 4473 and pass NICS. For gunsmithing, you pay me before I return the firearm. Still holding to the concept it's theft? Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: It’s not a false report if the owner is depriving him of his property. Yes it is. I'm an FFL, meaning I can lawfully deprive you of something you own as long as I want. You aren't getting your gun until you fillout the Form 4473 and pass NICS. For gunsmithing, you pay me before I return the firearm. Still holding to the concept it's theft? Not giving him an opportunity to pay for services or transferring their firearm back is theft. 1) call attorney 2) call ATF 3) police report, with detailed timeline of events and situation |
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Posted: 10/22/2023 10:02:35 AM EDT
[#45]
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Posted: 10/22/2023 10:21:40 AM EDT
[#46]
If you don't end up getting your rifle back, I'd want a police report stating something that it was lost/stolen/whatever by the shop in case it ends up at a crime scene and is traced back to you.
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Posted: 10/22/2023 10:28:20 AM EDT
[#47]
Quoted: This does not apply in this situation. If the gunsmith replaced the receiver, it is now a different firearm serial number. In order for the customer to receive the firearm back from the gunsmith, he will need to complete a Form 4473 and pass the background check as if he were purchasing a brand new firearm from any gun shop.  Quoted: I supplied the complete rifle and the replacement receiver. The original rifle had a receiver that had been re-welded together sometime in the past. Research on such receivers indicated it’s either completely safe or will blow up and wipe out a small village. I figured it would be safer to get a complete receiver and swap them out. |
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Posted: 10/22/2023 10:28:21 AM EDT
[#48]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Yes it is. I'm an FFL, meaning I can lawfully deprive you of something you own as long as I want. You aren't getting your gun until you fillout the Form 4473 and pass NICS. For gunsmithing, you pay me before I return the firearm. Still holding to the concept it's theft? Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: It’s not a false report if the owner is depriving him of his property. Yes it is. I'm an FFL, meaning I can lawfully deprive you of something you own as long as I want. You aren't getting your gun until you fillout the Form 4473 and pass NICS. For gunsmithing, you pay me before I return the firearm. Still holding to the concept it's theft? You don't know many rednecks do you? That logic would not fly with them. Reads like bullshit to most of us. Glad I'll never be in need of your "services." Are you holding that concept? 
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Posted: 10/22/2023 10:43:16 AM EDT
[#49]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Buy this shirt to wear on your visit. https://encrypted-tbn0.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcQHO3oXdY0JWPOT40wYjKxG09LhXc_cxVZ75g&usqp=CAU And shoot his dog on your way up the sidewalk just to give him a proper ATF “Howdy neighbor!” |
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Posted: 10/22/2023 11:03:49 AM EDT
[#50]
Quote HistoryQuoted: You don't know many rednecks do you? That logic would not fly with them. Reads like bullshit to most of us. Glad I'll never be in need of your "services." Are you holding that concept? Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: Quoted: It’s not a false report if the owner is depriving him of his property. Yes it is. I'm an FFL, meaning I can lawfully deprive you of something you own as long as I want. You aren't getting your gun until you fillout the Form 4473 and pass NICS. For gunsmithing, you pay me before I return the firearm. Still holding to the concept it's theft? You don't know many rednecks do you? That logic would not fly with them. Reads like bullshit to most of us. Glad I'll never be in need of your "services." Are you holding that concept? <-- FFL My ATF IOI told me exactly the same thing that DogtownTom is telling you now when we had our initial interview during the licensing process, because that's how federal firearms laws work. |
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